>nationalism didn't exist in any form until the 18th century
>Genesis obsesses over the historical nations and their creation, and how God is gonna create the Jew nation through his chosen ones
Autists think that modern nation-state nationalism based on enlightenment ideals and populism is the only thing that can be called nationalism. This is the only type of nationalism there is and nothing else counts.
It's sort of like saying that religion didn't exist before Abrahamic religion, or that war didn't exist before guns.
>>396116
Well, Islam is the world oldest monotheistic religion...
Nationalism is tied with theconcept of nation states which didn't existed before the 17th/18th century
>>396123
>Religion derived from Judaism
>it's the oldest because Mohamed said so
>>396123
>worship a prophet to the extent of praying towards his birthplace
>monotheistic
>>396141
Note hpwever how people constantly referred to states and civilizations AS IF they were nationstates. And notice how many nationstates are the same states as before.
>>395475
>mfw marxism think nationalism started in the 1800s
>mfw even if this was true, they someone how thnk it means its bad because of it
>mfw their entire philosophy was created in the 1800s by some NEET
>>396312
>>mfw even if this was true, they someone how thnk it means its bad because of it
>mfw they think they're sticking it to right-wingers by doing that because "askhully it's not really traditional"
When will this meme end? Have Marxists never read Shakespeare?
>>397799
What IS the point then?
No one seems to know.
>>397837
The point is to establish when nationalism came into existence, not to attack right wing political parties or whatever it is you claim.
Its an apolitical question, with an apolitical conclusion.
>>396123
Islam KILLED the world's oldest monotheistic religion.
The technologies and logistics necessary to establish stable nation-states as we now know them may not have existed until the 19th century, but "nationalism" in the form of tribalism or loyalty to a particular state has existed for thousands of years. Herodotus writes of concepts and ideas that could be considered Greek nationalism and patriotism.
>>397945
"Could be considered" basically amounts to "If you shut off your brain, and force anachronisms onto the past."
>>397964
Fuck off fifel.
>>397982
Not me mate, others hate anachronism too.
>>397982
You are literally in the same tier as "Thomas Aquianas was a gay rights activist" history.
![Brian%20Blessed%20%20Henry%20V%20(1989)[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/31lTg7s.jpg "Brian%20Blessed%20%20Henry%20V%20(1989)[1].jpg")
>>395475
>nationalism didn't exist in any form until the 18th century
>>398100
Supporting an "English speaking" dynasty isn't nationalism. The earliest you can go is claiming Shakespeare as a "national" poet.
>>398104
18th century Europeans in France is the standard answer.
>>398107
Have you read Shakespeare? He doesn't mention 'English speaking' he mentions England.
'Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more;
Or close the wall up with our English speaking dead.'
>>398107
That seems like a fairly arbitrary way of defining out pre-19th century nationalism
nationalism i think implies some sort of secularism and self-determination
>>398128
Nationalism didn't excist in the sense that we know it before 1789, you dirty primordialist.
The nation as both a legal and an emotional principle accompagnied by a powerful, popular political force called nationalism, is unprecedented.
>>398166
The estates general.
>>398104
>So who invented nationalism?
Why does a concept have to be invented by a particular person?
>>396116
>Autists think that modern nation-state nationalism based on enlightenment ideals and populism is the only thing that can be called nationalism.
That's literally what nationalism means you fucking retard. Even the word itself didn't exist until 1844.
>>398176
Jean-Jacques Rousseau wouldn't be a bad guess though.
ITT: Racism didn't exist until 1896.
>>398181
And Charles Darwin invented evolution in 1859.
>>398189
Explain to me what you understand under the world nationalism then, I'd be really interested.
>>398193
>Nationalism is a shared group feeling in the significance of a geographical and sometimes demographic region seeking independence for its culture and/or ethnicity that holds that group together. This can be expressed as a belief or political ideology that involves an individual identifying with or becoming attached to one's nation.
>Nation (from Latin: natio, "people, tribe, kin, genus, class, flock") is a social concept with no uncontroversial definition,[1] but that is most commonly used to designate larger groups or collectives of people with common characteristics attributed to them—including language, traditions, customs (mores), habits (habitus), and ethnicity.
>>398181
>if no word exists to describe something that thing doesn't exist
good meme
>>398201
Notions that ethnicities exist =/= nationalism. Dumb fuck.
>significance of a geographical and sometimes demographic region seeking independence for its culture
So exactly a nation state.
On another note, there's incredible few true nation states in the world.
So the solution for people who hate nation states is what exactly? A one world government that eliminates all sovereignty and borders? How is that not just an even worse form of nation-state?
>>395475
This so fucking much.
I hate fucking faggots that parrot this dumb idea.
If national-fucking-ism didn't exist, then why do we have countless records from various civilizations complaining about foreigners and differently looking people or even people who look similar but have a different culture? Why do we have countless records from various civilizations rallying people to 'defend their nation' from barbarian invaders?
Fucking shit cunts
Look at all the Old World Order empires
>Russia
Multiethnic
>Prussia
Multiethnic
>Ottoman empire
Multiethnic
>France
Multiethnic
>Britain
Multiethnic
>Austria
lel
Only with the French revolution came a change in that. Before 1789 only half of France could actually speak French but nationalism turned all the people into Frenchmen. Then came German nationalism, then panslavism, etc. So yeah a nationalism like we understand the word now is strictly an 18th - 19th century construct.
>but muh biblical Jews
That wasn't nationalism, it was tribalism. Modern nationalism is a syncretic idea combining patriotism with tribalism, those three words are not interchangeable.
>>398217
Because those aren't the "national" you anachronistic shit cunt.
>>398219
>nationalism is based on ethnicity alone
Tell that to fucking modern Americans, Chinese or Russians.
>>398213
Old timey imperialism.
>>398219
So empires aren't nation states? Seems pretty retarded.
>>398217
racism=/=nationalism you fucking idiot.
>>398213
>expecting liberals to operate on logic and rationality instead of MUH FEELINGS
>>398219
And people of the same "ethnicity" often share completely different haplogroups, DNA markers.
To what level are you going to deconstruct this?
>>398226
People can assimilate into other ethnicities though, ethnicities aren't rigidly set in space and nobody is looking at your DNA to trace your ancestral history.
It works especially well if you look similar enough. So a Mongol could assimilate into a Chinaman or a Pole into a German, but a black man assimilating into a Russian would have a much harder time.
>>398230
Racism or xenaphobia, based on national differences is a form of nationalism.
Next you'll tell me Hitler wasn't a National Socialist.
>>398235
>ethnicities aren't rigidly set in space and nobody is looking at your DNA to trace your ancestral history.
>So a Mongol could assimilate into a Chinaman
>>398226
Modern China - more than any other Chinese entity- espouses multiethnicsm really.
Hence 5 Stars on their flag. Symbolizing
-4 social classes of workers united in 1 revolution
and
-5 principal races of China. (Han, Mongol, Manchu, Uyghur, Southern Tribals)
Also what America has is Patriotism.
>>398235
>It works especially well if you look similar enough. So a Mongol could assimilate into a Chinaman
>>398236
It wasn't based on national differences though. As you yourself stated:
>foreigners and differently looking people or even people who look similar but have a different culture
>>398231
That's exactly what I expect from Locke, Hume, Smith, Manchester school, The Economist.
Tribalism = loyalty to your tribe
Patriotism = loyalty to your country
Nationalism = a combination of patriotism + tribalism
Xenophobia = hatred (literally "fear" but that's bull) of foreigners
Racism = hatred of different races
Get your vocabulary right you fucking retards.
>>398229
Are you implying Austria pre-WW1 was a nation state?
>>398237
Mongolian invaders literally, LITERALLY assimilated into Chinese culture after conquering China, you dumb roo fucker.
>>398238
>Also what America has is Patriotism.
Right. So why do they hate Mexicans even though America is full of Latinos?
>Modern China - more than any other Chinese entity- espouses multiethnicsm really.
And how does this make them not nationalist?
>-5 principal races of China. (Han, Mongol, Manchu, Uyghur, Southern Tribals)
No that's wrong. Look it up yourself.
>>398241
Nation - a group of people who share the same ancestry, language and culture
>>398245
Except they LITERALLY DIDN'T because STATED SPECIFICALLY IN CHINESE HISTOGRAPHY many of those Mongolian invaders were killed after they forgot their nomadic ways or kicked out back to Mongolia
>>398248
No. A nation is an imagined community, you dumb fuck. If to people decide their a nation, and both acknowledge the other one to be a part of the nation, they're a nation, regardless of fucking language, history, etnicity or culture. Now fuck off you dirty pleb.
>>398255
>Nation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation
>nationalists anachronistically view history as a struggle between ethnicities
>marxists anachronistically view history as a struggle between classes
>feminists anachronistically view history as a struggle of women against the patriarchy
Make it stop.
>>398213
You can have borders without turning into Hitler or Stalin. Just don't be dogmatic and expansionist.
>>398259
>marxists anachronistically view history as a struggle between classes
This is a good point never brought up. Marxists are the biggest fucking anachronistic spergs in the room, by their own retarded logic.
>>398259
Why can't history just be a struggle?
>>398263
Ever notice how practically all of the Marxist vanguard's intellectuals were social rejects?
>>398256
There is no concensus on the term "Nation", So I'd rather go with Renan, Anderson and Smith instead of your wikipedia article.
>>398265
Why does it have to be a struggle? Like just because there was a lord and peasants it doesn't mean there was a conflict between the two. Moreover, reducing complex conflicts and human relations in general to a single denominator like fucking idiots (be it race, class, sex, religion, whatever) is beyond idiotic.
Some of you guys don't understand that this is the exact root of stupid identity politics we have nowadays.
>white man disagrees with a black man
>must be racist
>>398263
Except they don't. Read Poverty of theory
>>398246
Because Nationalism is centered around a specific ethnic group. Not the case in China since...ever.
China is more of a cultural phenomena than an ethnic one. From Empire to the Two Republics.
>No that's wrong. Look it up yourself
You look it up for yourself. 5 Principal Nations has always been a tenet of Modern Chinese philosophy. Sun Yat Sen started it. And both the KMT and the CCP are the successors of his state philosophy and both espouded the 5 Principal Races shit.
>Right. So why do they hate Mexicans even though America is full of Latinos?
Illegal Immigration?
>>398231
you really like that image don't you you faggot cvck
>>398231
>everyone who disagrees with my horseshit opinions must be a liberal
Not to mention you're answering a false dichotomy question which proposes that there is only nation state, single world government and nothing else.
>>398284
>Because Nationalism is centered around a specific ethnic group. Not the case in China since...ever.
You're dumb fuck. Ironic you bring up Sun Yat Sen? Read any of his writings?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_nationalism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_nationalism
>Illegal Immigration?
Right. Because all Mexicans are illegal immigrants. And they couldn't hate the Mexicans for a cultural reason. Not possible at all.
>>396123
Muslim detected, kill this narrative before it takes hold
>>396160
Mohammad didn't born in macca let alone kaba
>>398283
>"The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles"
What did he mean by this?
>>398244
Racism being hatred of other races is fucking popular misconception. Racism is about there being races in mankind that differ in performances. You can easily be racist and not hate people for being different. Racial populations are spread on a spectrum and just have different peaks. Just like there's stupid, short and bald people of varying degrees in any country the same applies to races. Not all races are the same like countries are not.
>>398361
>Cultural nationalism
Whelp, this argument is over. I'm talking to an idiot
Nation = Ethnicity. No bones about it.
>>398539
>Nation = Ethnicity. No bones about it.
There is though, how would you explain switzerland and the us then? They're not nations or what?
>>398545
What they don't have is nationalism? But patriotism and the upholding of certain liberal/democratic ideals? Believe it or not you can base your identities outside race. Shocking I know.
Technically there are really few countries that can make the claim of "Nation State."
>>398407
>You can easily be racist and not hate people for being different.
Like the modern Liberal American.
>>398567
Nice strawman, I never stated that nations are based on race. Nations are imagined communities, as in a socially constructed community, imagined by the people who perceive themselves as part of that group. It has nothing to do with race, culture, history or language. That's why Switzerland and the US is nations. They're not nation states, because there are other nation coexisting within them, like Catalonians in Spain and North Schleswig Germans in Denmark. but Spain and Denmark are still nations regardless of there being other nations within the states.
>>398614
In short, if an african american and a dutch american both identify as american, while also acknowledging the other part to be american, they are per definition a nation, in this case part of an american nation.
>>398614
>nothing to do
That's a bit of a stretch.
>>398626
>self-identification
>>396123
Tell that to the Zoroastrians. Oh wait they already did.
>ITT plebs who think sedentary peoples can achieve the same level of group feeling as desert tribes
>>398407
That's racialism, not racism.
>>399952
What?
>>398244
Tribalism = extended family
Patriotism = loyalty to state
Jingoism = aggressive exterior patriotism
Nationalism = advocating state with national mandate (as opposed to divine or hereditary mandate) encompassing ethnic-majority areas
Irredentism = reclaiming perceived historical areas without favorable demographics
>>398614
>socially constructed community
dropped
>>400098
If Nations aren't constructed, what are they? Some eternal entity? Jesus christ you pleb.
>>400004
Ethnic identity requires more external feedback then that. It requires more tangible forms of unity and shared experience (like external enemies). Tongue and religion helps a lot.
>This thread again
>>398154
Did Murrica invented the nationalism?
>>400112
We are not talking about ethnos were talking about nation.
>>400140
>we're not talking about nation we're talking about nation
>>400146
Those are two different things anon. Nation is tied to a territory and to some degree a state. Ethnos doesn't have to.
>>400146
You really have to be a retard if you think nation and ethnos are synonymous.
>>400162
He's Australian so that's a given.
>>400160
>>400162
The mechanics of "ethnic" and "national" identity are the same. Nation and ethnos are usually the same.
I don't buy into the distinction you're making, I think it's just the process of unifying different ethne into one. You could split today's ethnic groups into different fiefs, cults and dialects that underwent this nationalization/homogenization already in the past and eventually became a full-fledged ethnic group.
>>395475
cultural unity and homogeneity (both go hand in hand) have always been the bedrock of civilization, a Marxist terrorist will tell you otherwise and create countless social ills in the process
>>398219
This.
>>400206
But the US is a nation, and that's a melting pot of all kind of different ethnicities.
>>400224
Where do you get the "but"? That's what I'm trying to say. The American "nation" will, with time, become a genetic, linguistic and spiritual ethnicity in its own right.
>>400206
Nation doesn't have to have shared blood. Ethnos does.
>>400231
That might be, but it's a nation now, and not an ethnos. So ethnos and nation can't possible be the same.
>>400241
What ethnicity are Americans but "American"? If a group of Americans settled abroad, what would they be identified as and identify themselves as? Certainly not "English", "Irish", etc.
I know you guys use it more as "race" or "origin", but that's not quite the case elsewhere where it's a more entrenched version of nation and "nationality" is defined strictly legally.
>>400293
Well, they wouldn't be called American if they were black or asian.
>>400293
As stated elsewhere nation =/= race, language and culture. Nation is by self-determination. Ethnos are closely linked to ancestral and cultural factors, nations don't have to be that = see switzerland and the US. A chinese and an african american have different ethnos but share the same nation.
>>397844
being a part of a culture with a set of traditions and a society built on said culture and traditions and wanting to ensure it survives
how's this for a definition or does it conform to the modern nation states idea
>>400325
>see switzerland and the US
A bunch of non-nations is what I see.
>nation =/= race, language and culture
In practice, wishful thinking.
>>400342
>In practice, wishful thinking.
But per definition a fact.
Also Switzerland and the US are nations since they identify as such, also there exist nationalism in both those countries, and as you know, no nationalism without a nation.
In the field of nationalism there's a general consensus that nations are not ethnos, and that the US and Switzerland are nations.
Is Russia a nation? Since Russians are multiracial.
>>398219
>>Britain
>Multiethnic
??
>>400370
Jep, they are.
>>400376
>Irish, English, Scottish, Welsh
That's multiple ethnicities anon.
>>400380
ah okay, i had in mind a BBC period production full of Africans. i agree with the rest of your post.
here is something related to your point about only half of france speaking french until the revolution
>Another problem that needed to be solved was the language of the Alsatians, qui ne parlent pas la Iangue républicaine, otherwise known as French. Someone suggested taking the children away from those in Alsace-Lorraine or resettling the entire German-speaking population throughout out all of France. Those were costly plans and as a result a more practical solution was worked out, namely, the complete extermination of the germanophone population. As one can see, the French Revolution was not only interested in the good Doctor Guillotin's deployment of mechanical mass murder, it was also interested in genocide and not only in Alsace but also in other regions of the République Une et Indivisible.
http://www.culturewars.com/CultureWars/Archives/Fidelity_archives/parricide.html
another interesting point that kuehnelt-leddihn makes is that nationalism is a leftist ideology, being that it is collectivist and emerges with the french revolution along with egalitarianism and anti-aristocratic values.
>>400404
The interesting thing about nationalism is that it's actually egalitarian, at least within the ethnicity in question. Leddihn explained it well in Liberty or Equality.
>>400362
patriotism*
>>398219
>France
Multiethnic
???
>>395475
>in any form
Found your straw man you stupid nigger.
>>400362
How come that nationalists in Austria we're pro-German and not "Austrian" nationalists.
Because Germany is a nation and Austria wasn't. Nation is 99% ethnicity. Not 99% patriotism and freedumbs like in America.
>>400415
Which in the american sense is the same as nationalism. Just because nationalism got a bad rep after the wars and they started using another word for it,, doesn't make it not nationalism. In it's original sense a patriot is just a good citizin.
>>400433
What is failed nation-building.
>>397837
That concepts of the definition of sovereignty change over time.
This is part of a Marxist approach to history which seeks to find a causal link between economics/production and dominant forms of political organization and thought.
>>400418
Look it up. I don't feel obliged to explain basic historical facts to retards.
>>400434
If patriotism is all that takes, then nationalism has existed since the first standing army.
>>400329
That sort of cultural defensiveness isn't new. Belonging to groups has existed since tribalism. But what those groups are, how they relate to and imagine their group's members, those do change. As does the organizing structure which unites the group.
Modern nationalism is usually more narrowly defined. I would recommend reading Imagined Communities to understand some of what I mean.
Book really changed my perspective.
>>400449
I said in its original sense. Words change meaning with time.
>>400454
You should read some Anthony D. Smith, he's a etno-symbolist. His definition of nation incorporates imagined communities with objective factors such as history, myths and culture. It's pretty interesting.
>>396123
No you idiot, you have to really throw the rod forward! If you just let it plop into the water like that, no one will bite.
>Nationalism
>Implying it is, in its current form, a fake ass biproduct of romanticism later coopted by the european elites to get the plebs to fight for them
>Implying campanilism isn't much more natural
>Implying that I, as a resident of a small town in central Italy, don't fucking hate the guts of the people from the town 10km away
>>400306
Yes they would. Do you think foreigners think Kanye West is African or something?
I remember hearing a lecture once that said that the main cause of the rise of nationalism in Europe at least was the rise of literacy. People now knew that they were say Czech, and other people weren't and that they were part of a group that they weren't aware of in the same way before. Loyalty to the king/queen/emperor or whoever was replaced by nationalism. This guy even asserted that the reason the French kicked so much ass in the French Revolutionary/Napoleonic Wars was because they were fighting for the idea of their nation and all it represented to them, as France, according to this guy, was the first realy nationalist country, and that troops fighting for that were more effective that troops fighting for their tsar/empress/king.
