What are the historical roots of Ukraine's problems today?
>>393511
being a non-country
>>393511
Russian imperialism
>>393511
The most relevant issue is that the Soviet Republics were not created, or ruled to create independent entities.
This isn't just an example of borders being shit, (though that's part of it), but also economic development being designed for inclusion in a larger economic unit.
Ukraine had factories that could produce certain arms in vast numbers, but not produce self-sufficiency.
What does a state that size do with a massive factory designed to produce heavy strategic bombers?
What does it do with extensive naval facilities designed to manage a large blue water navy?
What does it do with rail gauges specifically designed not to allow transit into Europe?
And so, even leaving ethnic identity aside, this state has two options: try to restructure it's society to fit in with the west, or to reforge links with the society it left.
Naturally, people who still benefit from the connection with the old economy, or are nostalgic for when things worked better, want to reintegrate further.
Obviously people who want something different want to restructure the Ukraine to be different.
Hence, lots of shooting.
>>393511
It was both one of the most and one of the least Sovietized countries in the USSR. You've got people who gave up organized armed resistance in 1954 on one side and people who got their ties with anything but gommunism completely destroyed.
This means the country was struggling to find balance all while slowly but surely desovietizing. A good example of that process would be electoral maps. First you've got Galicia only voting for a truly Ukrainian side, then you've got the whole Western part, then Central part slowly joined, and now South essentially did too. All you've got left is Crimea which is full of retired ex-Soviet military with locals mostly deported and Donbas with almost religious cult strength of proletariat worship (even though not many actually are proletariat) on top of your basic post-Soviet USSR nostalgia.
Holodomor was also a huge problem. I'm not arguing whether it was a genocide or not but it definitely scarred Ukrainian population seriously, especially in the Eastern parts which then got rapidly Sovietized and Russified.
>>393524
That works too, though.
http://www.amazon.com/Internationalism-Russification-Soviet-nationalities-problem/dp/0913460400
Go read this to understand the processes in Soviet Ukraine.
>>393522
While it certainly is a non-country, this is hardly a problem.
>>393511
Islam in crimea
And the golden horde and khans
>>393511
What is "ukraine" and how does it collectively have problems.
p.s.: location, location, location.
>>393540
>The most relevant issue is that the Soviet Republics were not created, or ruled to create independent entities.
Factually wrong. Soviet Ukraine was established largely by occupation of lands of Ukrainian People's Republic - first claimed in First Universal of Central Council, independence established in Fourth Universal.
>This isn't just an example of borders being shit, (though that's part of it), but also economic development being designed for inclusion in a larger economic unit.
Wrong again, borders and authority of UPR were claimed only to Russian provinces with absolute Ukrainian majority.
While economic part was largely true for early nineties, as of now Ukraine is perfectly self-sufficient (even the gas problems are almost solved). Its major exports include full-cycle metallurgy and agrarian sector.
>Ukraine had factories that could produce certain arms in vast numbers, but not produce self-sufficiency.
True, but again, for early nineties. Later on those factories either were closed or became self-sufficient by supplying your friendly neighborhood African warlords and Asian dictators.
>What does a state that size do with a massive factory designed to produce heavy strategic bombers?
Please show me that factory. Antonov had never produced combat aircraft and Yuzhmash makes rockets.
cont.
>>393592
>>393540
>What does it do with extensive naval facilities designed to manage a large blue water navy?
Black Sea fleet has never been a blue water navy. Plus again, that's early nineties problem you're talking about. Most of the shit got sold, other ones became self-sufficient.
>What does it do with rail gauges specifically designed not to allow transit into Europe?
Yes, this one is a load of shit.
>And so, even leaving ethnic identity aside, this state has two options: try to restructure it's society to fit in with the west, or to reforge links with the society it left.
2001's census puts Ukrainians at 77% and Russians at 17% but that was 14 years ago. Many Russians definitely assimilated. You could argue that there's a self-identification issue going on and it definitely is present in some regions (Crimea and Donbas) but right now it is more or less satisfactory.
...again, early fucking nineties problem. Last (and definitely crucial) problem which did not allow Ukraine to become truly self-sufficient was natural gas with Gazprom being a monopoly supplier (since metal needs a lot of energy to produce). Now Ukraine doesn't even buy gas from Russia.
>Naturally, people who still benefit from the connection with the old economy, or are nostalgic for when things worked better, want to reintegrate further.
Partially true. Shady gas schemes were extremely beneficial for some politicians and especially metal manufacturers.
A lot of people who had only just found out Ukraine kinda exists have this weird time-stopping thoughts about it.
>Why don't it just become a buffer zone?
That's what the country has been for 22 years of independence, and that's what Russia wants it to be. However, since Ukraine survived as a state and since Ukrainians are fighting to stop being a buffer zone, a Russian colony even, that's not going to happen.
>Isn't it crucially integrated to Russian economy?
It used to be but things change.
god damn it, cont.
>>393511
Being an anachronistic non-country. Or refusing to give up outright Russian regions under the guise of territorial integrity.
>>393637
>>393592
>>393540
It used to be but things change. There is no doubt that in the early nineties Ukrainian economy which was a part of the Russian one approximately since Russian Empire got a good railroad network going (so middle of the 19th century, before that Ukraine was more or less its own thing economically) was in a state of shock. However, shock therapy which in Ukrainian case many people jokingly called "shock without therapy" did have some positive results. Lack of state subsidies and need to make at least some fucking cash drove people to repurpose servicable old Soviet infrastructure for new markets and development ideas - and close uselessly obsolete one.
Not that it did not bring any other problems, of course. Aforementioned full-cycle metallurgy, for instance, meant the country had almost everything to produce steel: ore, coal, infrastructure, means of delivery. However, coal meant pouring huge amounts of money in useless fucking mines, and I think you guys know how horrible and depressive old mining towns are. Alternative to coal is natural gas, and that was one of the biggest problems for the country indeed, until now.
Now of course, Russia being close and some economic links still being present meant that a lot of Ukrainian exporters continued to export goods to Russia. However, Russia in a brilliant idea decided to use it as a leverage and start a series of trade wars with Ukraine. Obviously exporters didn't like it and slowly reoriented its markets to other countries. Right now amount of Ukrainian export to Russia is something laughable, though I forgot the exact numbers.
Amount of Russian imports to Ukraine used to be 17% of everything - including natural gas which Ukraine doesn't buy now - in the beginning of 2014.
So yeah, we're left with the war and a bunch of territory annexed as the main problem.
>>393679
The very fact that things change is the point of the problem though. Ukraine as it existed in the 90s was obviously unsustainable, one way or another, it needed to change and was changing. People disagreed about the way it should change, and they started shooting each other over it.
>>393637
>Yes, this one is a load of shit.
I'm going to just address this one, because it's so straightfoward.
Most of Ukraine's rail system was built with a 5ft Rail gauge. Europe uses a 4 foot, 8 1/2 inch rail gauge.
This is inconvenient.
>>393701
Yes but what can you do here? War is bad but it united Ukrainians against a single common enemy, it showed people who are individualistic and stubborn as hell that state is still necessary, it kickstarted Ukrainian army's reestablishment, and it laid ground to (more or less) common historical myth.
There is no doubt that Ukrainian state might have collapsed in the middle of 2014 - but it did not, and it showed that there is a new status quo brewing, with old Post-Soviet elements going out with a bang.
In other words, ironically a war made people more united and showed that there is much less difference within the country than people thought before.
>>393652
>under the guise of territorial integrity
Russia itself guaranteed the territory of Ukraine, completely with Crimea back in the early 90s in exchange for Ukraine scrapping its nuclear arsenal.
While Ukraine clearly is a non-country, this doesn't justify Russia being a bunch of traitorous faggots that break their own word.
>>393742
I agreed on that, though. "Load of shit" as in extremely inconvenient.
>>393511
Tsars and Nazis fucking their shit up so bad.
>>393750
Oh, sorry about that. I thought you meant "load of shit" as in it never happened.
But yeah, I'm aware all of these things, changed, but OP asked for background information.
This was the state of the Ukraine in the 90s, and now it's radically different. Radically different changes tend throw societies into political distress.
I also agree with you that the ethnic identity problems are certainly not the core of the problem, and I think ethnic identity as a factor in the conflict basically comes after other considerations.
Political economy is the basis of the war.
>>393849
>Radically different changes tend throw societies into political distress
I can agree with you on that one too. I don't think this is the problem brought by Ukraine itself since its governing body had never been fond of radical changes (and multivectoral policy is a stunning example of that) but indeed, that is one of the causes.
>>393511
Ukraine's existence.
>>393511
The Austrians brainwashing Russians into believing they were Ukranians.
/thread.
>>393801
This.
But don't forget commies fucking their shit up bad.
>>394741
>/threading your own post
Get outta here.
They were always adept at fucking themselves over, starting with this guy.
>>393746
They've also done astoundingly well in the war even with Russia interfering at every second.
