This is bound to happen eventually anyway.
Let's try to actually discuss this conflict from a historical rather than factional point of view.
This thread is not for discussing who is right or wrong, only for what actually happened.
As an opener here is a map of jewish ownership with the UN partitionplan superimposed from 1949
http://www.mediafire.com/view/ba2y4mbxbfgo771/Palestine%20Israel%20Map.jpg#
Too big filesize for 4chan.
What does his think about edward said and orientalism?
>>391813
>what actually happened
A bit broad, what exactly do you want to talk about?
Also, I don't think you'll get a neutral perspective, for some reason, everyone has a dog in this fight.
>>391845
A reactionary shill that targets a western leftist audience.
Casual reminder
>History is clear: Israel accepted the U.N.'s 1947 Partition Plan of "palestine" as delineated by the British Mandate, but the Arabs rejected it and initiated a war which they lost. Had they accepted Partition, the state of Palestine would have been created alongside Israel.
>>391846
Any of thew Arab-Israeli Wars for example.
I am actually quite keen on seeing maps that aren't retarded about the situation in israel 1947 aswell. Most maps i've seen claim that the entire negev desert was owned by arabs which is extremely silly.
I'd like a map which more accurately takes into account typography and legal ownership during the british mandate.
>>391854
Casual rejoinder
The British Mandate was originally unjust colonialism at its finest. Neither the British, nor any other Western nation or organization, had any right to determine the borders in that region.
>>391875
True, but the Jews were already there and demanding a nation of their own.
What was going to happen?
>>391813
Some should also include palestinian ownership on that map, lest some partisan starts claiming the negev desert as stolen palestinian land. Also, needs some way to distinguish privately lwned land fro JNF clay.
>>391875
Reminder that this thread isn't about people's opinion on who is right or wrong.
>>391885
I agree, i would like this aswell, or even better a smaller resolution map that takes into account both the jewish and arab ownership.
>>391875
Wait, would you say the same thing about the ottoman empire that controlled the land before that? Or was the ottoman EMPIRE somehow not imperialistic?
>>391894
The Ottoman EMPIRE was also imperialistic, to the detriment of the colonized. Had the various Levantines and Arabs consented to this imperialism (as does, for instance, South Korea with the U.S.) then we might look on the Ottoman empire more kindly today.
>>391937
I like posting too, but this is getting pretty off topic.
>>391937
Korea was a nation before its run-in with imperialistic powers. The levant, on the other hand, had been continuous imperial clay for millenia, interrupted only by the crusader states, which are probably also imperial in your book. Thing is, there was no prior non-imperial status that would have given unquestionable legitimacy to arab national aspirations.
>>391845
Raises some decent points, but overall fails to prove its thesis. Also mired with cherry picking, bad sources, and plain bad arguments. Its academic impact has been catastrophic, particularly in Middle East studies.
>>391854
Then how would you suggest determining the borders of the region? There were almost no historical nation states whose borders could have been used to designate where one country ends and another beings. The case of Israel-Palestine could have set an example in how to determine post-colonial borders in comparatively democratic way, and it blew the fuck up literally on day 1.
Besides, having your borders determined by monarchies and foreign powers isn't that different from the European experience as well. It's just that in Europe countries came to solve their border disputes peacefully eventually and/or recognize each other and shut up, while the Middle East is still going through a kind of late middle ages/early modern stage.
>>391875
What a shitty argument. It uses a bunch of abstract concepts ("unjust", "colonialism") to obsfucate the reality of power.
Tell me, what right did the Allies had to determine the borders of Postwar Germany and expel millions of Germans from Eastern Europe? What right did the Entende had to determine the borders of Czechoslovakia, Poland, Hungary and Austria after WWI?
The right of conquest, of course. They won a war. Vae victis. The British won Palestine from the Ottomans in a war, if they wanted to dispose of it to the gypsies, they had the "right" to do so, in the concrete sense. Even more so for the Israelis, who defeated Arab armies in not only, but in three wars. By now the Palestinians should count themselves lucky they are still alive.
>The Jews are a peculiar people: things permitted to other nations are forbidden to the Jews. Other nations drive out thousands, even millions of people and there is no refugee problem. Russia did it, Poland and Czechoslovakia did it, Turkey threw out a million Greeks, and Algeria a million Frenchman. Indonesia threw out heaven knows how many Chinese — and no one says a word about refugees. But in the case of Israel the displaced Arabs have become eternal refugees. Everyone insists that Israel must take back every single Arab. Arnold J. Toynbee calls the displacement of the Arabs an atrocity greater than any committed by the Nazis. Other nations when victorious on the battlefield dictate peace terms. But when Israel is victorious it must sue for peace.
Eric Hoffer
>>392333
Israels borders were set in the most tried and tested fashion.
As part of a peace negotiation. Pretty much all borders in the world are like that today.
>>392384
And it took, what, three major wars and countless smaller skirmishes? That's the point.
In 1947, or for that matter in 1916 when Sikes-Picot was signed, there were almost no precedents. UK and France had to pull this out of their asses. In some parts of the ME such as Israel, Egypt and the Transjordan new stable borders slowly emerged, while other ones just fell apart and became a clusterfuck, such as... anywhere else really.
>>391875
Right of Conquest mufuggua, get fucked
>>392413
Straight lines rarely work. 3 wars to establish your borders is historically speaking quite few though. Consider the amount of wars europe has had to establish theirs.
>>392442
Well Israelis still have the small matter of their eastern border...
>>392451
You mean the west bank?
>>392457
Of course
>>392462
Well, the west bank is technically part of Israel, since Jordan gave it up as part of the peace treaty, it's kinda like Israel's northern ireland on crack, but eventually i am sure Israel will settle it.
>>392471
>but eventually i am sure Israel will settle it.
Kek, I see what you did there (and I approve).
>>392471
You win this time.
>>391813
I think it kinda boils down to how long do you have to live in a place to claim it your own and create a state.
I mean they actually bought the land, they just needed to create their own state. Once they did they won the ensuing war fair and square. I guess after a while people are just going to forget Palestine ever existed if this keeps up.
At individual, company or organization level, I guess the migrations and stuff are completely legal. At international level, it's very blurry as there is no framework for creating nations and everyone does so by waging war. At moral level, it's a disaster. It's pretty much deporting the locals who didn't even have the same legal construct and who had not been through the developments that Europe had been through.
palestine under ottoman rule consisted of most of modern day israel and jordan, right? so are jordanians ethnically and culturally distinct from people in the west bank and gaza, or are they all basically just palestinians?
>>394895
>people will forget Palestine existed.
Except the Palestinians are breeding Israeli's out of existence like no tomorrow.
>>396095
naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
Israel gets forainers to settle in palestine and breed like fly's
>>391813
>This thread is not for discussing who is right or wrong, only for what actually happened.
Not helping, but really this is like asking for a history of American slavery and abolitionism without any mention of "who was right or wrong". It's basically impossible. You can't hide from ideology forever.
Some quick notes for the uninitiated that have vague hopes of seeing through the sea of propaganda:
Anyone that tries to imply to you that the history of Israel starts in 1948 is a liar.
Your key word of the day is Aliyah. Look it up, carve into the back of your head, and keep it in mind whenever you hear someone telling you about the history and "cause" of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
>>396259
Fuck you are a cunt.
>I'm right because one word
>I'm not going to make my argument I'll just let you develop my point for yourself
arabs conquering almost the entire middle east is fine but jews taking back their ancestral homeland from the arabs is absolutely haram and you're an islamophobe if you don't agree.
>>391813
Is a one sided slaughter really a conflict?
>>391875
But they did, the Arabs fought, and they lost due to it. Don't fight unless you know you can win, especially when you stand to lose everything if you don't win.
>>396095
This is actually objectively false.
>>396259
>Anyone that tries to imply to you that the history of Israel starts in 1948 is a liar.
>Your key word of the day is Aliyah. Look it up, carve into the back of your head, and keep it in mind whenever you hear someone telling you about the history and "cause" of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
This in itself doesn't negate or affirm anything concerning the conflict, though.
>>391873
This shows land ownership by region, not as full as it could be. However, it takes public land into account.
>>391813
I always found it funny that when Muslims practically invade Lebanon and destroy the Christian population there, nobody gives a shit. However, when Jews buy land and settle in Israel, they are evil.
>>396095
>people actually believe retarded shit like this
>>398584
>a civil war is an invasion
>>396095
Jews, even non chassidish, have tons of kids in israel
>>398623
Sunni Palestinians chimped out in Lebanon, after they got kicked out of Jordan, after they left Israel. It's why everyone in the muslim world hates Israel but doesn't give a shit about Palestine, because they're cancer as well.
Pretty informative introduction video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZY8m0cm1oY
