were shieldmaidens a real thing?
>>389571
No.
If you have enough strong,able men to do the job, you aren't going to need a woman
maybe in cases of necessity but come on
Female warrior thread?
>>Sikelgaita frequently accompanied Robert on his conquests. She conducted the siege of Trani (1080) while Robert moved against Taranto. Although at first she tried to persuade him not to attack the Byzantine Empire, she nevertheless brought troops and accompanied him on his campaign against them. At the Battle of Dyrrhachium in 1081 she was on the field in full armour, rallying her and Robert's troops when they were initially repulsed by the Byzantine army and were in danger of losing cohesion. As a middle-aged woman with a large family, it is unlikely that she was a combatant although obviously close to the action, probably in a sort of command post.[2] According to the Byzantine historian Anna Comnena, she was "like another Pallas, if not a second Athena,"
>>389663
Your premise is literally debunked within the single excerpt you chose to post
She was a meme figurehead clumsily clunking about in oversized armor and yelling at people
>>389571
This is mostly shit in the air that I've picked up on the internet, but I've read that it wasn't entirely uncommon for wives to accompany their husbands when they went raiding. They often knew how to fight anyway since they were the ones who looked after the farms while the men were off for the summer.
>>389700
If you were a successful farmer with a wife, why would you go raiding? Do people really think everyone was a "viking?" Do people really think they all went on raids?
Fuck that ahistorical History Channel show. FUCK IT.
>>389716
Oh you know, even though they had it made and things were stable they had that crazy Nordic urge to go on an incredibly dangerous, long, journey to engage in battle with people the world over for a few meager possessions
>>389674
>commanders aren't important
If you say so...
>>389700
>>389716
I'd think the inverse would be more likely. If the men are off trading/raiding then the women would probably stay home to take care of the children. The women then might have needed to occasionally defend themselves from criminals/raiders while the men were gone. I don't know of any specific examples of this involving vikings, but there are recorded instances of women in Spanish and Italian settlements fighting off Muslim raiders.
>>389724
>crazy Nordic urge
the what now
people are not anime characters
>>389746
commander =/= female warrior
Do you know what a warrior is?
Dear Women,
You are weaker on average, in every physical category.
Nobody would willingly pick you to fight for them.
Please stop exaggerating historical accounts of female combatants.
Sincerely,
Reality
>>389716
Because there was a shit ton of loot to be had. You could get fucking rich. Egil Skallagrimrsson's saga mentions that his grandfather got so rich from viking raids that the king began to see him as a potential threat.
And also because land in Denmark and Norway was shit for farming. You'll notice that the later "viking" excursions were about seizing land rather than loot.
>>389765
They enacted Title IX for a very clear reason
I don't know how much evidence people need, life is not like movies
you don't handwave a million+ years of evolution
>>389765
'average'
>implying some women wouldn't be more useful than some manlets
>>389571
not with those scrawny arms
>>389786
A manlet can be a very strong, sturdy, elusive warrior
There are a lot of short guys in the NFL who cut a role for themselves thanks to their low center of gravity and acceleration
I would still take a lithe, strong 5'7 guy over a lanky, awkward 6'0 woman in a swordfight
>>389786
define manlet
people back then were really short, Charlemagne was an exception
>>389765
It's interesting to note that women tend to pop up in warrior roles where physical prowess doesn't necessarily matter that much. A good example would be Scythian horse archers.
>>389805
It's funny because if the tall muscular women had a spear the short guy would be dead first just because of the reach advantage
>>389762
>>389765
Yeah. Women warriors have never been common. But they do exist. Get over it. All OP did was ask if shieldmaidens existed. Next time just say, "Probably not, though their legend may have been influenced by the actions of one or two outstanding women.", instead of getting ridiculously butthurt about it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Hatchet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakano_Takeko
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_O%27Malley#Legendary_exploits
>>389790
>That's why it's interesting because there weren't that many.
It's only interesting to you because you're insecure about your sex, and feel the desperate need to validate its clear disadvantages.
Men don't cream themselves over random ass farmers who signed up for the militia because of economic necessity to get slaughtered in droves.
This is why people fight and die, because of necessity.
Those women weren't fighting to prove some stupidass agenda about how women are just as tough as men.
They fought because their homes were going to get pillaged and then they'd probably get raped.
>>389822
>archery
>doesn't require strength
>>389829
Look up Kenau Simonsdochter, a dutch warrior woman
>>389838
>It's only interesting to you because you're insecure about your sex, and feel the desperate need to validate its clear disadvantages.
If your just assuming all that because of what I posted then this board needs trigger warnings for people like you.
>>389838
horse archers used recurve bows, which took considerably less effort to use
that's why they were used from fucking horseback
>>389838
>archery
>doesn't require strength
Less than swinging a sharpened piece of metal while holding a rather large piece of wood. Having done some historical re-enactment, I can attest that doing so for long periods of time is fucking exhausting.
>>389827
You still have to have the power and dexterity to accurately, quickly, and powerfully spike and drive the spear, my friend
melee warfare is very much tied into physical strength, prowess, and ability
>>389902
>nu huh
Hey I can do that to:
No dip shit. Literally one thrust from the tall athletic heavily muscled Aryan amazon's spear and the small dude is dead.
>>389920
*it was a hologram*
>>389844
Awesome. Thanks.
>>389786
If you have some tall, fit lady why would you risk her ability to give you healthy offspring by bringing her into battle?
Also, practically everyone was a manlet in the premodern era
>implying people always act this autistic
>>389901
goddammit you plebs
SHIELD LINES
>>389946
>Also, practically everyone was a manlet in the premodern era
It's implied that manlet means less then average for the time period.
>If you have some tall, fit lady why would you risk her ability to give you healthy offspring by bringing her into battle?
Yes every possible scenario in history would involve the woman being married pre child birth and with option to just let her stay back at a home. Every single point in time.
>>389997
Yes and a top 1% woman with a good grasp on a spear could do some good damage to a manlet.
>>389849
Not the guy your talking to but the draw weight would have still been 50+ pounds which required constant training. Women definitely could have done it but it wasn't any less tiring than using a sword and shield if you were in decent shape.
>>389838
Sometimes its difficult for me to fathom the retardation of some people on here.
Outliers are the entire point of history. There are tons of commanders, but only a handful as great as Napoleon or Subutai, or as shit as Burnside and Varus. Being an outlier is literally what makes them interesting.
>>389663
Teuta
>>389571
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freyd%C3%ADs_Eir%C3%ADksd%C3%B3ttir
She calls out, "Why run you away from such worthless creatures, stout men that ye are, when, as seems to me likely, you might slaughter them like so many cattle? Let me but have a weapon; I think I could fight better than any of you." They give no heed to what she says. Freydis is eight months pregnant at the time, but this does not stop her from running out of her tent and grabbing the sword from her fallen brother in arms, Thorbrand, Snorri's son. Then come the Skrælingjar upon her. She lets down her sark so that one breast is exposed, and strikes her breast with the sword, letting out a furious battle cry. At this the Skrælingjar are frightened and rush off to their boats, and flee away. Karlsefni and the rest come up to her and, instead of praise, rebuffs her behaviour.
>>389838
>Men don't cream themselves over random ass farmers who signed up for the militia because of economic necessity to get slaughtered in droves
Yeah, that's why there's no war memorials to common soldiers anywhere. Nor are ceremonies held to remember them every year. Or museums set up to teach people about them. Or entire libraries worth of books written about them. Or their modern equivalents hero worshipped.
>>389829
>10 thousand years of human conflict
>3 examples
Patriarchy status: smashed
>>389772
I would imagine the people going out raiding were the many young males without much in the way of family or property. A mentally sound human being wouldn't give up a safe and secure life on the farm for a life threatening roll of the dice.
>>390646
Again from Egil's saga, I remember a passage telling of a farmer's son who was essentially a NEET but he later proved his worth when he started raiding.
>>389716
yeah wtf why would you raid shit if you had work on a farm or worse you OWNED land?
why put your life at risk?
fucking retards
>>389829
It's dumb as fuck to send the women of your country to die in wars
literally killing the future of your country to send sub par units to die in combat when you can send men.
>>389571
Lagertha is hot has shit.
But that show got pretty gay pretty fast.
Reddit faggots were like OMG STRONG INDEPENDANT WOMAN CHARACTER
adn the writers saw it and then proceeded to make her retardely strong and independant for the sake of it.
Ruined the show and character.
In ancient Celtic society women would instruct the young men of the village in martial arts. It created a nice sort of equilibrium, all the men were away fighting so you had the women teach at home, and you don't want to send the people who teach your guys to fight into battle themselves.
>>389571
Women are support class for life. They can't be fighters.
>But one time there was this one girl who killed a bunch of people in X war!
Sometimes support class gets lucky. They're still support class.
>>390593
>>390707
>>390921
>Patriarchy status: smashed
Nobody in this thread is talking about "the patriarchy" or "sjw agenda". Some people happen to think that women leaders and fighters are a cool historical subject. The spergs who freak out at any mention of the subject don't positively contribute to /his/ threads.
>>391106
>/his/ threads
>>389901
> historical re-enacting
You mean LARPing
>>389632
Who is this cum drum
>>389571
Sure, women were not property in the viking period, if women really wanted to be warriors they could, however finding men to train them at a young age was probably the real issue, however there was religious "sects" or the like who would probably take whom ever they could including women for warrior roles.
Also more evidence pointing torwards female warriors, is some of the graves that we've found with females burried with weapons.
>>389838
>people who want to discuss history are insecure
this is what your retarded logic is saying
I sure hope this is b8 because I mean, I already have a low opinion of /pol/ but I refuse to believe it can go even lower.
Does rock bottom even exist with you guys I wonder?
>>391106
But no anon, fuck talking about history impartially!
Everything has to be an agenda in /pol/'s world!
>>391251
>Also more evidence pointing torwards female warriors, is some of the graves that we've found with females burried with weapons.
Being burried with weapons doesn't necessarily mean they were a warrior.
Let's talk about the most badass female warriors in history.
The Japanese ones.
>>391730
No, which is why I didn't say "We found a grave with a female corpse and a sword, end of discussion"
>>389765
Dear autist
This is a history board, female warriors are history despite them being rare
History is literally based around outliers. All the great men and women in history in the end represent the minority of all of humanity.
Not every discussion has to be an agenda, history is about being impartial.
Haven't you considered that maybe people here just wanted to discuss female warrior outliers impartially without bringing up feminism or how women are biologically weaker?
Sincerely
Fuck off back to >>>/pol/
>>390593
>Nobody in thread brings up patriarchy
>Bring up patriarchy anyway
When did the "/pol/ is just like tumblr" meme become true?
>>391735
I'm would imagine that Celts and Vikings/Norse would have had their own version of the Onna-Bugeisha whenever the men were off raiding/doing mercenary work. I mean, you would want your village to be deffended or at least have people who can hold back the invadors long enough for the non-fighters to escape with the children
>>392281
It always was.
>>389772
>And also because land in Denmark and Norway was shit for farming. You'll notice that the later "viking" excursions were about seizing land rather than loot.
Only the land Norway was shit for farming. The land in Denmark was fine
>>389571
Most likely propaganda or porn.
Probably both.
Since we're on the topic of warrior women, what did the Greek base the amazons on?
I've read they they represented the Sythians, who suposedly looked very effeminate compared to the Greeks, but I was wondering what /his/ thought of this
>>392576
Scythians, though again, it's subject to interpretation, have a habit of burying women with the tools of war.
>>389571
we already had this thread and this was the correct answer
https://4ch.be/his/thread/366453/#366667
>>392596
>>392576
I think Scythians are pretty much confirmed to have employed women warriors.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomyris
>>392307
It's possible, though I don't know of any specific Celtic and Norse examples. As mentioned earlier in the thread, Spanish and Italian towns were successfully defended by women against Arab raiders though.
>>391735
Tomoe Gozen was another cool female Samurai. Some say she's just a legend. But Yamato Nadeshiko, who is much more historically recent is definitely real. So I don't think Tomoe Gozen is to far fetched.
>>391730
No, but for a long time people assumed weapon=male and didn't bother to check the gender of the skeleton. The fact that there are female skeletons with weapons means something, but it's still unclear what. Female warriors isn't a bad bet, because there aren't many other ideas other than inheritance or protection for why they'd be there in the first place.
>>389632
>Dat fine woman
10/10! Who is this Salami Tsunami??
>Navel piercing
Nevermind...
>>389724
>they had that crazy Nordic urge
What? Scandinavians has always been peaceful farmers, traders and craftsmen.
The viking raids was just like the yearly picnic with your workplace.
>>391142
No, I mean fighting with historical weapons. Historical fencing, or swordplay, or whatever the fuck you wanna call it. I don't remember what the codified term for it is in English.
>>393179
Female snipers were a thing because apparently they had better cardio, and tended to be smaller which is good for being a sniper.
But mostly because manpower issues in WWII for the Soviets. If not for that the Russians would have employed men throughout their military, just like how the frontline units on the eve of Barbarossa were all male.
>>389798
the fuck
>>393251
>Soviets
>problem in manpower
Nyet, tovarish. When you want to fight for motherland just go to your local commissar and he will recruit you. Za Rodinu!
>>392381
Well, my source is pretty much Cornwell's Saxon Stories where one of the chieftains in the Great Heathen Army talks about how the soil back in Danmark is sandy and infertile compared to England. But I wouldn't discount the effects of climate change over twelve hundred years nor the development of new farming techniques or technologies. Land that was deemed unarable back then could be perfectly fine to farm now.
>>391763
>History is literally based around outliers
not true
>LITERALLY
>>389786
>manlets are bad
>most high teir operators aren't squat as fuck
>>389571
When a shield is broken, she give you one new. Here is your shieldmaidens.
Abour warrior women... Most likely, not. There never was warrior women unless it was a matter of life or death. The first thing that comes to my mind is the French occupation on Spain, when spansh women used to attack the french troops with everything they had in hands like scissors.
Then we have figures like Jeanne d'Arc, Agustina de Aragon, Sikelgaita... Women that used to inspire men to/in battle. And this is since ancestral times, when women used to paint in the cave the hunters having a sucefull game, while men were actually hunting.
>>390527
Came here to post this bitch. She was the deal deal.
>>389571
In Germania, there are many accounts of the romans being surprised at having to fight the Germanic women as well as men
I got into watching helicopter / drone strikes on libeleak. A couple of the pliots were women, and they were as casual about wasting hajiis as the rest.
>>393344
You don't need to have balls to be a heli pilot in Afghanistan/Iraq. If those same women had to fight on the ground they would be on the ground bawling and pissing their pants
>>389571
Sure, but they were historically insignificant. No one gave a shit about women warriors until feminism took control of the western world.
>>389571
No.
Men are more naturally adept at combat both physically and mentally. 99+ percent of warriors throughout history were men.
In any instant women were used, it was certainly out of desperation, the desperate side invariably ending up crushed.
>but muh single examples
it was almost always the winning side being surprised after sifting through bodies in the aftermath
>>393352
Yeah, I'm sure you're 300 confirmed kills, trained in gorilla warfare, etc. etc.
>>393435
Shut up faggot
cheeki viking cunts get off me island
>>393330
If she cut off her boob, would she die?
>>393670
Dude, nobody here fucking cares if they were "significant" or "effective" compared to male soldiers. Obviously, they were not. But they still could have existed. Somebody has to defend the home when all the men are off raiding shit.
>>393987
Retard detected
>>389765
>in every physical category
and mental as well
>>394022
Thank you for this precisely zero-value contribution to this thread.
Now go back to your cave.
>>394099
>>393357
>Begin post by saying shieldmaidens didn't exist
>End post by saying shieldmaiden corpses were found
WHICH ONE IS IT?!
>>389571
In iron age tribal societies, women fighting alongside men wasn't uncommon.
The origin of the Amazon myth comes from the Scythian tribes, who extensively used female riders in battle.
Celts, who probably invented shieldmaidens, had women warriors and leaders.
The Amazon rainforest is called that because of the native tribes who used women warriors.
>>394295
>The Amazon rainforest is called that because of the native tribes who used women warriors.
I actually had not idea about that one. Very interesting
>>394295
>The Amazon rainforest is called that because of the native tribes who used women warriors.
I actually had not idea about that one. Very interesting.
Are you sure about the Iron Age tribes one? From what little I've read Women were mainly left behind to defend villages and their children, more than actually going on campaigns
>>389700
>>389716
>>390680
I've only read a translation of Egil's Saga, so my knowledge of the Norse is rather limited. Based on the SAGA most of the raiding was done by sons who wern't in line to inherit dad's farm.
>Snorri Snorrison(3rd son of Snorri) reaches fighting age
>contracts out as merc to Romans or whoever
>after gaining rep, raids christians
>literally buys a farm in Iceland
>Has son named Erik, Eirik, & Snorri
> repeat
>>390916
you also want someone to hold the line in case the villiage is raided while the men folk are out sheep stealing or whatever.
>>394327
>From what little I've read Women were mainly left behind to defend villages
Yes. If I'm not wrong only the Celts and Scythian used women warriors on offensive wars/battles. But the tradition was training both men and women to use arms was common place in iron age tribes.
>>389663
I forget her name, but Alexander had an Illyrian half sister that was charged with subjugating the northern tribes.
She personally beheaded their queen in battle and then marched against Antipater and defeated him after Alex died.
She was finally taken down by Perdicas' brother in Asia Minor, who stabbed her in the middle of negotiations.
>>394476
Cynane?
>>393926
It would be very painful
>>389571
No, in Nordic culture, women were not allowed to fight. Although, women in Nordic culture were seen as the ones who would urge their husbands on to bravery.
There's an old story where a warrior's uncle is murdered, but the warrior doesn't duel the murderer. He is at the table and he complains that he is cold, so his wife throws his uncle's bloody coat on his back.
>>395578
P.S. And the warrior's response is
"Nothing is colder than a woman"
Biologically speaking, why would you want to risk loosing your most valuable asset? (not trying to be sexiest by referring to women as property)
Women were more valuable in their traditional role of child rearing, home making and food gathering then being used on the battle field.
>>395655
>not trying to be sexist
Stopped reading there
>>395655
>not trying to be sexiest by referring to women as property)
women NOT being properties is only a fairly recent idea
Dumping warrior women from old /tg/ thread (01/18/14)
Aethelflaed, eldest daughter of Alfred the Great of England, was known as the Lady of Mercia. She led troops against the Vikings during her father's reign and was responsible for the construction of many fortifications. Her military achievements helped her brother Edward the Elder in his Kingship. She died 918 in AD
At the battle of Bravellir between King Harald War-tooth and his nephew Ring, three women, Hethna, Visna and Vebiorg led companies on the Danish side
Rusilla fought against her brother Thrond for the thrones of both Denmark and Norway.
Sela was "a warring Amazon and accomplished pirate"
Stikla ran away from home "preferring the sphere of war to that of marriage"
Alvid also ran away from home and became leader of a group of male and female pirates.
Gurith, Alvid's daughter, also took part in a battle to help her son Harald after her husband was killed.
Source for those 8: "Women in the Viking Age" - Judith Jesch - Boydell Press - 0 85115 278 3
Salaym Bint Malham "with an armoury of swords and daggers strapped round her pregnant belly fought in the ranks of Muhammad and his followers".
Urraca, Queen of Aragon became ruler of Leon-Castile in 1094 when her husband died. She remarried in 1098 and then spent 13 years at war with her second husband, Alfonso the Battler, to protect the inheritance rights of her son by her first marriage. She led her own armies into battle
Matilda, Countess of Tuscany (also known as Matilda of Canossa) was born in Northern Italy in 1046, learned weapons skills as a child, first went into battle at her mother's side in 1061 defending the interests of Pope Alexander II. When her stepfather, Duke Godfrey, died in 1069 Matilda commanded armies. She led her troops personally, and wielded her late father's sword. She spent some thirty years at war in the service of Pope Gregory VIII and then Pope Urban against the German Emperor Henry IV. She married twice, but had no children.
>>395693
This is just a dump, so correct any errors from my copy-pasting.
The Order of the Axe (orden de la Hacha) was founded in 1149 by the Count of Barcelona, to honor the women who fought for the defense of the town of Tortosa against a Moorish attack
Petronilla, Countess of Leicester took part in her husband's rebellion against Henry II in 1173. According to Jordan Fantosome " she was armed in a hauberk and carried a sword and shield".
A Papal Bull of 1189 prohibited women from joining the Third Crusade, Because of the numbers participating inthe 2nd crusade. Queens Eleanor of Aquitaine, Eleanor of Castile, Marguerite de Provence, Florine of Denmark and Berengaria of Navarre are known to have gone on Crusade.
Nicola de la Haye was in charge of Lincoln Castle when rebel barons and Louis, son of the French King Philip beseiged it in 1217. She was the daughter of Baron de la Haye, hereditary castellan of Lincoln. She successfully defended the town against several rebel raids and was made sheriff of Lincolnshire in 1216.
The Order of the Glorious Saint Mary was founded in Italy in 1233, and approved by Pope Alexander IV in 1261. It was the first religious order of knighthood to grant the rank of "militissa" to women. The Order was suppressed by Sixtus V in 1558.
In 1297 the Countess of Ross led her own troops during William Wallace and Andrew de Moray's battles with the English.
Isobel, Countess of Buchan: (A.D. 1296-1358) Isobel MacDuff left her husband, the Earl of Buchan (Taking the finest warhorses with her), to fight for the Bruce, a cause of which her husband did not approve. The earl went as far as to issue a warrant for her death. Captured by Edward and taken to England, the countess of Buchan was imprisoned in a small cage for four years. She afterwards retired to convent life.
>>395696
Jeanne de Danpierre, Countess de Montfort: (Abt. 1300 - 74). (also known as Jane, Countess of Montfort) During the defence of Hennebont (in which she'd had the misfortune to be besieged by her & her husband's enemies), she wore armour, rode a warhorse, and sorted out the defence of the city by observing the enemy from the walls. Jeanne also mobilised the townswomen to defend the ramparts with makeshift missiles. She broke out from Hennebont at the head of 300 horseman, during a French assault on the walls, and successfully fought her way to Brest. She later returned with 600 additional men to reinforce the town. Later that same year, she is reported to have taken part in a sea-skirmish off Guernsey; wearing a suit of armour at the helm of her ship, and wielding a sword.
Jean Froissart's Chroniques describes Jeanne 'with a very sharp sword to hand, fighting with great courage'
Isabelle of England: (A.D. 1285?-1313?) Daughter of Phillippe le Bel of France, wife of Edward II of England. She took up arms against her husband and his supporters. When Edward III came to the throne, he forced Isabelle to flee to Scotland, where, during the ensuing war, she travelled with a defending troop of like-spirited women including two sisters of Nigel and Robert Bruce (Christian, Lady Bruce and Isobel, Countess of Buchan). Against this troop of noblewomen, Edward issued a formal proscription, and captured and imprisoned several of them. Isabelle he forced to retire to a convent life "lest she try further conquests".
>>395701
Black Agnes: Lady Agnes Randolph (A.D. 1300?-1369?), wife of Patrick the fourth earl of Dunbar and the second earl of March. In her youth, she fought for the Bruce, but is better remembered for the later defense of her castle. In 1334, Black Agnes daughter of the great Randolf, earl of Moray, successfully held her castle at Dunbar against the besieging forces of England's earl of Salisbury for over five months, despite the unusual number of engineers and elaborate equipment brought against her. After each assault on her fortress, her maids dusted the merlins and crenels, treating her foes and the seige as a tiresome jest.
Agnes Hotot, (A.D. 1378? - ?). The coat of arms of the House of Dudley shows a woman in war helmet, dishelved hair hanging out, and her breasts exposed, commemorating a female champion. In the fourteenth century, Agnes Hotot's father quarreled with another man and agreed to a duel with lances to settle the affair. Upon the appointed hour, Agnes's father fell seriously ill. Agnes put on a helmet and disguised her sex, mounted her father's horse and set out for the tourney grounds. 'After a stubborn encounter,' Agnes dismounted her father's foe. When he lay on the ground, "she loosened the stay of her helmet, let down her hair and disclosed her bussom, so that he would know he had been conquered by a woman."
Pope Boniface VIII wrote several letters in 1383 in which he mentioned Genoese ladies who were Crusaders.
>>395703
"From Petrarch to Cardinal Giovanni Colonna. 23 November 1343
Of all the wonders of God,'who alone doeth great wonders,' he has made nothing on earth more marvelous than man. Of all we saw that day, of all this letter will report, the most remarkable was a mighty woman of Pozzuoli, sturdy in body and soul. her name is Maria, and to suit her name she has the merit of virginity. Though she is constantly among men, usually soldiers, the general opinion holds that she has never suffered any attaint to her chastity, whether in jest or earnest. Men are put off, they say, more by fear than respect.
Her body is military rather than maidenly, her strength is such as any hardened soldier might wish for, her skill and deftness unusual, her age at its prime, her appearance and endeavor that of a strong man. She cares not for charms but for arms; not for arts and crafts but for darts and shafts; her face bears no trace of kisses and lascivious caresses, but is ennobled by wounds and scars. Her first love is for weapons, her soul defies death and the sword.
She helps wage an inherited local war, in which many have perished on both sides. Sometimes alone, often with a few companions, she has raided the enemy, always, up to the present, victoriously. First into battle, slow to withdraw, she attacks aggressively, practises skilful feints. She bears with incredible patience hunger, thirst, cold, heat, lack of sleep, weariness; she passes nights in the open, under arms; she sleeps on the ground, counting herself lucky to have a turf or a shield for pillow.
continued...
>>395710
>continued:
She has changed much in a short time, thanks to her constant hardships. I saw her a few years ago, when my youthful longing for glory brought me to Rome and Naples and the king of Sicily. She was then weaponless; but I was amazed when she came to greet me today heavily armed, in a group of soldiers. I returned her greeting as to a man I didn't know. Then she laughed, and at the nudging of my companions I looked at her more closely; and I barely recognized the wild, primitive face of the maiden under her helmet.
They tell many fabulous stories about her; I shall relate what I saw. A number of stout fellows with military training happen to have come here from various quarters. (They were diverted from another expedition.) When they heard about this woman they were anxious to test her powers. So a great crowd of us went up to the castle of Pozzuoli. She was alone, walking up and down in front of the church, apparently just thinking. She was not at all disturbed by our arrival. We begged her to give us some example of her strength. After making many excuses on account of an injury to her arm, she finally sent for a heavy stone and an iron bar. She then threw them before us, and challenged anyone to pick them up and try a cast. To cut the story short, there was a long, well-fought competition, while she stood aside and silently judged the contestants. Finally, making an easy cast, she so far outdistanced the others that everyone was amazed, and I was really ashamed. So we left, hardly believing our eyes, thinking we must have been victims of an illusion.
>continued still further
>>395713
continued
The story goes that Robert [of Naples], that noblest of kings, was once sailing along these shores with a great fleet, and, tempted by the stories of this woman, he came ashore at Pozzuoli only to see her. This does not seem very likely, since, living so nearby, it would seem easier for him to summon her. But perhaps he landed for some other reason and was eager to inspect this great novelty. He has a very curious mind.
Let the tale-tellers bear the responsibility for the truth of this story, as of many others we have heard. For me the sight of this woman makes more credible not only the tales of the Amazons and their famous feminine kingdom, but also those of the Italian virgin warriors, led by Camilla, whose name is celebrated above all. For what hinders us from believing of many what I could hardly have credited of one, if I had not seen it? And that ancient Camilla was born not far from here, at Piperno, at the time of the fall of Troy; while our modern girl was born at Pozzuoli. I wanted to give you this report in my little letter.
Farewell and Prosper."
>Source: "The Voice of the Middle Ages in Personal Letters 1100-1500" Edited by Catherine Moriarty ISBN 1 85291 051 8, Lennard Publishing.
>>395720
Back to warrior women
Queen Margaret of Denmark (1353-1411) led her armies against Swedish and Norwegian forces.
From "Treasure of the City of Ladies" (1405) written by Christine de Pizan : "We have also said that she [the baroness] ought to have the heart of a man, that is, she ought to know how to use weapons and be familiar with everything that pertains to them, so that she may be ready to command her men if the need arises. She should know how to launch an attack or to defend against one."
Jacqueline of Bavaria, Countess of Holland, Hainault and Zealand (1402-1437) led her army to relieve a seige at the city of Gorkum.
Margret Paston took charge of the defence of her home in her husband's absence both before and during the Wars of the Roses. She asked him to send crossbows, poleaxes and iron spikes as well as more domestic items in a letter in 1448.
Isabella I of Castile (1451-1504) was married to Ferdinand of Aragon. She was heir to her half brother Henry IV of Castille and inherited his throne in her own right in 1474. This led to a war with supporters of his wife's allegedly illegitimate daughter, Juana. Later in her reign she and Ferdinand attacked the Moors and drove them out of Southern Spain. Isabella wore armour and led her army in the field, she also planned strategy and organised the supplies and field hospitals. Her importance to the army was illustrated by the fact that her illness after a miscarriage while she was in command of an army at Toledo in 1475 gave her enemies a respite.
Margaret of Anjou (1430-1482) was a leader of the Lancastrian forces during the War of the Roses. Her armies defeated the Duke of York and the Earl of Warwick.
(though it is noted that Margaret was commanding from the back in several of the battles)
>>395725
A group of 350 women constructed and defended fortifications for the Protestant Garrison in Guienne, France in 1518
Ameliane du Puget, the governor's daughter, led a troop of women who broke a siege at Marseilles in 1524 during a war between the King of France and the Constable de Bourbon. They dug a mined trench known as the Tranchee des Dames which became the modern day Boulevard des Dames.
Hernan Cortés' army in Mexico in 1521 included Spanish and Mayan women some of whom fought with the army.
Beatriz de Pardes was a nurse, but on occasion fought in the place of her husband, Pedro de Escoto.
MarÃa de Estrada was noted for her valor at the battle of the bridges on the noche triste.
Lilliard led the Scots at the Battle of Ancrum in 1545 She killed the English commander but was killed herself later in the battle.
Graine Ni Mhaille (1550-1600) was an Irish princess and pirate, also known as Grace O'Malley, and commanded a large fleet of ships. She petitioned Queen Elizabeth I of England regarding her various territorial claims, and the two met in 1593. Despite her own officers' reports that Grace was attacking English navy, shipping and coastal towns, the Queen accepted Grace's claims.
In 1568, two sisters, Amaron and Kenau Hasselaar, led a battalion of 300 women who fought on the walls and outside the gates to defend the Dutch city of Haarlem against a Spanish invasion.
>>395728
Marguerite Delaye lost an arm fighting in the battle which lifted the siege of Montelimar in 1569.
In 1584 a group of Dutch and English volunteers recaptured the city of Ghent from the Spanish. One of the volunteers was Captain Mary Ambree.
Tomoe Gozen captured the city of Kyoto in Japan in 1584 after winning the Battle of Kurikawa. She was described as being a strong archer and excellent swordswoman.
Dona Catalina de Erauso of San Sebastian left a nunnery in 1596 and travelled to Peru where she became a soldier of fortune. She used sword, knife, and pistol, and fought in battles and in duels. She died around 1650.
Madame de Saint-Belmont disguised herself as a man and fought a duel against a cavalry officer after he ignored a letter she had sent complaining of his discourtesy.
During the English Civil War Queen Henrietta Maria was actively involved in King Charles' campaigns and marched at the head of one of his armies.
King Charles issued a proclamation banning women who were with the armies during the English Civil War from wearing men's clothing.
Lady Ann Cummingham led a cavalry troop of men and women in the Battle of Berwick on June 5, 1639
The Scots Army which marched on Newcastle in 1644 during the English Civil War is reported to have included "women who stood with blue caps among the men" as regular soldiers.
In 1645 a Royalist corporal captured near Nottingham during the English Civil War was found to be a woman.
>>395736
Christian 'Kit' Cavanagh (or Davies), better known as "Mother Ross" was one of several women who served as dragoons in the British Army. She fought during the 1690's at first disguised as a man and later openly as a woman.
Anne Chamberlyne dressed in men's clothing and fought in a six hour battle against the French on board her brother's ship in June 1690. She died in childbirth in1691.
A ballad written in 1690 by seaman John Curtin describes a woman who was discovered disguised as a man in the crew of the 72 gun vessel "Edgar".
A gentlewoman petitioned the Queen (Queen Mary II) for payment for serving on the ship "St Andrew" dressed in men's clothing and taking part in a battle against the French in the summer of 1691.
... and the next one on the list deserves an entire post all of her own....
>>395740
Julie d'Aubigny (1670–1707), better known as Mademoiselle Maupin was born in 1670 to Gaston d'Aubigny, a secretary to the comte d'Armagnac, the Master of the Horse for King Louis XIV. Her father trained her in dancing, literacy, drawing and fencing. While in her teens she became a mistress of the Count d'Armagnac and through him was introduced to court.
d'Aubigny gathered a reputation in Parisian courts, and fought duels with young aristocrats. She became involved with an assistant fencing master named Serannes.
About 1688, when Lieutenant-General of Police Gabriel Nicolas de la Reynie tried to apprehend Serannes for killing a man in an illegal duel, the pair fled the city to Marseille, where d'Aubigny and Serannes gave duelling exhibitions, sang and told stories in inns. When duelling, d'Aubigny dressed in male clothing but did not conceal her gender.
Eventually, she grew bored of Serannes and became involved with a young lady. When the girl's parents put her away in the Visitandines convent in Avignon, d'Aubigny followed, entering the convent as a novice. There she stole the body of a dead nun, placed it in the bed of her lover and set the room afire to cover their escape. Their affair lasted for three months before the young lady returned to her family. D'Aubigny was charged in absentia with kidnapping, body snatching, arson and failing to appear before the tribunal. The sentence was death by fire,
continued...
>>395743
>continued
Escaping from Marseille, d'Aubigny made her way towards Paris, while also embarkingon a career as an opera singer. In Villeperdue, she fought a victorious duel against three squires and drove her blade through the shoulder of one of them. The next day, she asked about his health and found out he was Louis-Joseph d'Albert Luynes, son of the Duke of Luynes. The next evening, one of his companions came to offer the duke's apologies. She went to his room dressed in female clothing and subsequently they became lovers.
After Count d'Albert recovered and had to return to his military unit, d'Aubigny continued to Rouen. There she met Gabriel-Vincent Thévenard, another singer, and began a new affair with him. They continued together towards Paris. In Marais, she contacted Count d'Armagnac for help against the sentence hanging over her. He persuaded the king to grant her a pardon instead.
In Paris, D'Aubigny began to use the name Mademoiselle Maupin, and eventually joined the Paris Opera. Several years later D'Aubigny once more became a professional duelist, when she fought three noblemen during a court ball around 1693, she fell afoul of the king's law that forbade duels in Paris, and fled to Brussels.
She later reconciled with her husband and lived with him until his death in 1701 or 1705. After she retired from the opera in 1705, she entered a convent in Provence, where she died in 1707.
>>395745
More women warriors
Lady Lude fired the first shot of the Jacobite attack on Blair Castle, Scotland. This was her own family home and had been taken over by the Hanoverians.
Lady Margaret Oglivy and Margaret Murray (or Fergusson) accompanied their husbands who were officers in Bonnie Prince Charlie's (Prince Charles Edward Stewart or The Young Pretender of Scotland) army in 1745-6. Mrs Murray is reputed to have been directly involved in seizing horses and money for the army.
(source for those ones: "Damn Rebel Bitches - Women of the '45" - Maggie Craig - Mainstream Publishing - 1-85158-962-7)
Hannah Snell dressed as a man and called herself James Gray. She served in a regiment of the Royal Marines and fought at the siege of Pondicherry. In 1750 she revealed her secret to her comrades and was granted a lifetime pension. She died in 1791.
Source: Hannah Snell, The Secret Life of a Female Marine" - Matthew Stephens - Ship Street Press - 0-9530565-0-3
DEBORAH SAMSON (sometimes mis-spelled "sampson")
In October of 1778 Deborah Samson of Plympton, Massachusetts disguised herself as a young man and presented herself to the American army as a willing volunter to oppose the common enemy. She enlisted for the whole term of the war as Robert Shirtliffe and served in the company of Captain Nathan Thayer of Medway, Massachusetts.
For three years she served in various duties and was wounded twice - the first time by a sword cut on the side of the head and four months later she was shot through the shoulder. Her sexual identity went undetected until she came down with a brain fever, then prevalent among the soldiers. The attending physician, Dr. Binney, of Philadelphia, discovered her charade, but said nothing. Instead he had her taken to his own home where she would receive better care.
source: http://userpages.aug.com/captbarb/femvets.html
>>392972
DID YOU LITERALLY JUST TAKE A SHIT ON YOUR KEYBOARD AND THAT SENTANCE CAME OUT?
>>395753
That's all from that dump, others are free to contribute.
>>395655
Do you think desperate people back then even considered any of this?
One of the biggest mistakes you can ever make in history is trying to apply current common sense and conventions to societies and cultures of the past.
It just doesn't work, this shit is something that constantly changes all the time.
>>395764
Thanks. Good stuff. Some I knew about already, and some that are totally new to me.
>>395655
>Biologically speaking, why would you want to risk loosing your most valuable asset? (not trying to be a misanthrope by referring to peasants as property)
>People were more valuable in their traditional role of farming and manual labor then being used as human sacrifices to Quetzalcoatl.
>>396055
ebin, my comrade
we're gonna smash the upper classes together xD!
>>389765
Hey moron, no one in this thread is saying they were common, we are saying they existed. http://www.lothene.org/others/women.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_post-classical_warfare
>>394036
The retards like you in this thread shows that to be false.
>>393355
In other words you are butthurt that women warriors existed.
>>393357
Do you have anything to back up your claim that shieldmaidens did not exist?
>>391735
>>389829
>Women warriors have never been common.
Depends on the context. There's a lot more of them in unorganized military situations where enrollment is based on enthusiasm than in professional soldier roles. In the former case, I've seen the number 30% thrown around but can't cite it to anything definitive.
>>395725
>Queen Margaret of Denmark
Worth noting that Denmark only made it legal for a women to inherit in time for the current Queen. Margaret I got her position because of her military power.
>Cut Nyak Dien
one of the leader of the Aceh against the Dutch during the Aceh War. After the death of her first husband during the 2nd Dutch Expedition, she swore to destroy the Dutch. She was then proposed by another commander by the name of Teuku Umar (pictured together), but only accepts the proposal if she was allowed to fight in battle. They fought together for about 20 years (even raise their daughter together, Cut Gambang, to fight with them) before Teuku Umar was killed in 1899. After that, Cut Nyak Dien took over her late husband army and continue the resistance. She was almost blinded and riddled with many other complications, so one of her subordinates surrendered her to the Dutch. She was nursed to health, before being exiled after being found to still secretly contacting the guerilla forces. She died in her exile.
>>397291
>Do you have anything to back up your claim that shieldmaidens did not exist?
Do you have anything to back up your claim that they did? There's literally nothing on them except folklore.
>>389920
>heavily muscled Aryan amazon
Those don't exist you fucking moron
unless we are introducting steroids to medieval populations
>>399949
How the fuck does this prove the existence of Nordic shield maidens?
>>389571
there was some infograph with real sources I saw.
It explained they were real, but in no way were they usual or encouraged. They were kinda a last ditch effort thing. The infograph listed some battles where they were at, it was almost all the defending side of a siege of a town or similar, and they usually lost. Now wether they lost because they were involved, or if it was a losing battle so they had to be used, is debatable.
I can tell you one thing, there werent anything close to that bullshit tv show
>a "news" article claiming that up to 50% of Viking Raiders were women based on the fact that they found some women buried with weapons
isn't it a coincidence that it's always exactly 50%
>>389923
Short guys can fight pretty well!
>Not if I gib their opponents a reach advantage :_DDD
What prevents the short guy from using the spear?
>inb4 you were only pretending to be retarded
>>389571
> wife and I play wrestle
> wife gets one over on me
> "Woo-hoo! I beat a man!"
> "Honey, you beat a man who was playing."
> "Well then stop playing."
> "That will hurt."
> "I can take it!"
> ten seconds later........
> "I can't move my arm. You're hurting me. Stop. Why did you do that?"
> "Because you told me to stop playing."
My wife is 5'10", fit, very strong for a woman and 14 years younger than me and when I chose to put her into a wall, she went no matter what she tried. Women just aren't built with nearly the strength men are. Even that buffed-up MMA chick refuses to fight a post-op tranny because she admits this. The guy would mop the floor with her and she knows it.
>>389849
>horse archers used recurve bows, which took considerably less effort to use
No they don't you fucking moron. Compounds take less effort, and a purely fucking modern inventions.
Recurves are used form horses because they can achieve the same draw-and require the same strength to use-in a smaller package.
don't opine on subjects you know nothing about.
>>389901
Having done both, Archery is considerably more fucking strength intensive.
Swining a steel bar that should not come in at over 2lbs, and a wood slab that should not come in at more than 10lbs is an issue of cardio, not raw power, and requires far less muscles than drawing 70-150lbs of force back, holding it back, and then repeating every few seconds for an indefinite period of time.
>>400974
What do you define as "not playing"?
>>401049
I grabbed her arm, yanked her off her feet and pushed her into a wall.
>>401049
Ironic rape
>>399204
Lets just temporarily agree that the existence of shieldmaidens are ambiguous, but Women warriors always found their place and sometimes, triumphant in history.
>>401049
>I beat my wife in a fetish fight therefore shieldmaidens are a lie
>>400974
THAT
IS
BESIDES
THE
FUCKING
POINT
>>400974
Literally what the fuck does this have to do with this thread?
>>389571
possibly, bodies with female skelletal structure have been found on viking battlefields, burried in close proximity to arms
The Taiping had entire units composed exclusively of women and commanded by them.
>>389571
What's the verdict on this? My stupid brother and his new wife are big into that anachronistic society bullshit and said, "OH YEAH, THERE WERE DEFINITELY SHIELDMAIDENS. YOU DIDN'T MESS WITH VIKING WOMEN!"
I'm thinking that's a gross exaggeration.
>>402647
It makes no sense at all. And there's nothing in historical evidence to say it was a common thing. Verdict: fantasy.
>>402654
>literally female skeletons in battlefield graveyards, buried with weapons
Common or not, it definitely happened.
>>402666
In what frequency? If it's an outlier it's not even worth mentioning. We wuz kings tier grasping. Women are hilariously weaker than men, walk into any gym.
>>402678
>In what frequency?
Does it matter?
>>402682
No, it's like caring if 13 year old boys participating in battle every once in a while was a significant thing. It's not. In necessity, people are going to rely on their reserves. It doesn't make them good, or even adequate, fighters. You're making a false equivalency.
>>402684
I would think so
it's like saying Gorillas can read because one time Koko learned the alphabet
>>402696
Presidents don't get assassinated very often. I guess that proves that no president has ever been assassinated and we're never allowed to have assassination threads.
>>402708
Thread topic: were shieldmaidens a real thing?
Let's look at it in context. He provides a picture of a woman from the show "Vikings", which tries to portray the "shieldmaiden" as a typical, normal female counterpart to the male Viking warrior who frequently assisted in fighting and raiding. In that context, the answer is a sound "no", shieldmaidens were not a "thing" and there would never be any reason for Viking men to go out of their way to bring along smaller, weaker, less capable women to voyage and raid with them.
If the question was more along the lines of "did it ever occur", which isn't what I'm guessing from the implications I listed, the answer would be "yes", every once in a while a woman had to fight.
Is that rigorous enough for you?
>>402729
>every once in a while a woman had to fight.
Huh. Imagine that. Was that so hard?
>>402737
The problem is when you worrier women whiteknight and whores go on to proclaim equality, or that they don't have natural domestic positions because of a few outlier butch dykes.
>>402976
I see you've learned nothing from our previous discussion.
>>389663
>female warrior thread
>>402976
As has been shown in multiple posts in this thread, female warriors existed. Not nearly as frequently as men, so they're outliers. But it's a FEMALE WARRIOR THREAD. There's no need to have one thread about "shildmaidens" and another about all other female warriors. So we're talking about female warriors here. It has nothing to do with "SJWs", modern feminism, or whiteknights. It's just a fucking thread about female warriors. Why do you faggots have to shit up every thread that mentions women fighting when there's proof that they sometimes did, and even some fighting today? When we have a thread about greatest generals, you dumb fucks don't flood it with posts saying "Great Generals were very rare, and only a handful can be called truly great, so you shouldn't talk about them because they're ouliers!". PLEASE take this shit to /pol/ or /r9k/.
Yes I'm mad. If it was just this thread, I wouldn't care to much. But this is every single time somebody mentions women in history.
>>404062
Nah anon, that guy specifically is a hack faggot who claimed in another thread that before progressiveness gender roles have been exactly like the 50's in America everywhere in the world in every point of history.
Obviously that's fucking retarded as these arbitrary roles are different in each culture, like how shown in this thread there are cultures in which women fought too.
Apparently pointing this out makes me a butthurt feminist Tumblrina though.
>>404062
>someone starts a thread about the TV-show Vikings on /tv/
>spergs instantly come in frothing at their mouths about shieldmaidens in it
I could imagine even reddit isn't this autistically obnoxious.
>>404257
well the next time this happens redirect them to this board
>>403422
>>403900
>>404216
No, you're misrepresenting the entire position with your arbitrary focus on the 50s and extention to the entire world.
Women has predominantly domestic lifestyles in western civilization since it's dawning, they gain "freedom" as wealth and leasiure increase.
Nobody is going to lay you on the internet white knight faggot.
Roles are not arbitrary, they are very real.
If they are arbitrary HOW DID THEY COME TO EXISTENCE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
You're so fucking retarded
>>402976
>Implying your "THEY NEVER FOUGHT AT ALL" faggotry is any less annoying
>>404216
>some women, complete and total outliers in any society, fought
>this means gender roles are arbitrary and false
....
Are...
Are you stupid?
I'm pretty sure the other guy would became no less than frustrated because of how moronic your statement is.
>>404855
>implying that's at all what I've ever said
There's three people you're thinking of,
1. The genuine misogynist who thinks women are completely inferior
2. Me, who thinks we are different
3. The retard who denies history.
>>404841
>If they are arbitrary HOW DID THEY COME TO EXISTENCE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
There are many theories related to this.
Personally I'd suggest checking anthropology as it's the most reliable field when it comes to this.
>lol white knight
Everytime you people always resort to this retarded buzzword.
Can you please explain which specific woman I'm even defending right now?
Hell, does my argument even count as defending anything? If anything what I'm doing here is destroying the feminist narrative of the patriarchy.
>>404864
>in some societies people were completely fine with women fighting and saw nothing wrong with that
>in other societies women did labor as much as men
>this totally doesn't mean that roles are different in each society in each point of time
Are YOU stupid?
>>405335
Good fucking christ.
End the stupidity of this child.
>a few butch dykes are able to be worriers, most of them are romanticized or used in desperation
>GENDER ROLES ARE COMPLETE BULLSHIT
>>405357
You're the one who keeps misunderstanding my posts.
Gender roles are not ''false'' they exist but they shift all the time.
If they were as strong as you suggested than no society would have ever been fine with women being warriors.
In some societies women did in-door domestic work, in other societies instead it was the norm for women to work outside their home.
How in the fuck is this NOT a significant difference?
>>389571
>women with a force full of men
>men haven't seen their wives for days, maybe even months
>men have killed others and seen their comrades killed
>men get lonely
>men see the women and want to do the obvious
OR
>unisex force loses to male force
>men see enemy women
The impracticality of putting women in that era's warfare makes it seem highly unlikely.
>>405373
>the vast majority of women in western civilization were domestic creatures preparing food for storage during the harsh winters and popping out children
>sometimes while the men were away they worked in the field but mostly occupied by the sons too young to fight
>OH BUT HERE IS MY SINGLE BEEFY BUTCH WHO CAN INTO WAR, OOPS, SOCIETIES DON'T SHOW A GENERAL TREND
Show me examples of your latter societies, the examples you can show are in wealth and leasiure.
>>405413
Are you that ignorant about basic history?
Women have ALWAYS done agricultural (aka not domestic) work in many cultures.
Let's take feudalism for example, you think the peasant women did not do labor as much as their husband did for their fucking lord?
Not to mention things like women helping their husbands running shops, or them running shops themselves. Or how about women working in restaurants or bakeries? It's a job related to food sure, but it's still a fucking job done outside of their homes.
And speaking of feudalism, there was the figure of the ''lady of the manor'' back then. It was essentially a woman running a manor/farm/castle on her own.
Not to mention that in Eastern Europe it was very common for women to do labor, which is why feminism didn't have much success over there. It simply isn't needed, the American figure of the traditional housewive didn't really have foundation over there.
>>405447
>Women help with labour
>still subservient in totality or taking secondary roles
>Women running around in a castle during times of wealth and leasiure
Nope, pretty much the response I expected.
You really are a feminist cûck m8
>>405465
Don't you move the fucking goalpost now, your claim was ''women always stayed at home doing domestic work''.
>You really are a feminist cûck m8
A feminist would actually agree with you and then proceed to whine about oppression and muh patriarchy.
The fact that women could run castles and manors of their own even during the fucking middle ages clearly goes against the oppression narrative.
So care to explain how exactly I'm a feminist?
>>405465
>running their own business
>subservient, secondary role
Lol
>>405506
Yep, they did.
>>405506
Oh I see, you have no rebuttal.
I suppose we're done here then.
Friendly advice: when it comes to history never try to apply the societal norms and conventions of a specific society to every culture of the past
It's like one of the biggest mistakes you can ever make
>>405506
Anon, there were times when women ran entire countries. Why would a woman running a business or a minor castle be surprising?
>>399973
As brother to two weightlifting sisters, women can easily be heavily muscled. Depends on their genetics I guess. One of my sisters has larger legs than me. Looks like one of those Olympic bicyclists. Last we talked she was lifting 4 days a week and she was all excited about squatting something like 260 pounds. I don't remember exactly.
Most women just don't work out hard.
>>389901
But that is because you are a fat neckbeard and not used to physical activity
>>389571
Yes they fucking were, fucking bitter woman-hating neckbeards need to stop spreading lies for their own personal reasons.
t. Icelander who's actually read the sagas
fucking unbelievable
>>390921
/thread
>>389820
Viking age average in scandinavia was maybe 4-6 cm shorter than todays average in the same regions.
It is during the industrial age people became really short before that the average height wasn't that much shorter
>>409155
Any chance you could link to some exerts that refer to them specifically?
>>395687
People not being property is only a fairly recent idea
>>407360
>can't even squat 3pl8
Your sister's a weak faggot.
>>407360
>personal anecdotes
>honestly trying to argue that women are physically equal to men because you're a weak limp waisted faggot
>>409155
>sagas
>an accurate account of history
Wew lad
>>409918
He never said that a womans strength is equal to that of a man
>>390916
That's from a fucking myth you idjit. Britannia was an armour-clad woman, Victoria was a queen, and the Virgin Mary was one of the most revered religious figures in Europe, so would you take that as evidence that Victorian Britain was a matriarchal society with female warriors?
>>397308
Who is this qt?
>>392959
Rus used women during one attack on byzantium
>thread about female warriors
>no mention of Dahomey amazons
You guys seriously need to step it up to be quite honest family
>>395743
Everything about Julie d'Aubigny's life is absolutely hilarious but it culminates in her scheme to get her lesbian lover out of the convent.
>>389571
she's so fucking hot
I 'd like to wreck her shield, if you know what I eman.
>>389724
>they had that crazy Nordic urge to go on an incredibly dangerous
I see you mock structuralism, but why do I get the feeling that you use it against all other races to explain "behaviour"?
>>413064
>beheading niggers
I like her already.
Some women were warriors. Does that mean that every single female born in the past was some master blade wielder or was capable of doing so? No, stop flinging shit. If you're that insecure that talking about some dead, old ass bitch who fought and killed people 1,000+ gets you upset then hang yourself.
>>395687
Yes which is why the head of the nunnery would often find herself being a wealth member of medieval society. Your concept of property is the fairly recent idea.
Why do people on 4chan hate women so much? Honestly say women are basically equal to men and can largely do the same thing and the entire thread will just devolve into a shitstorm.
I'm just going to blame /r9k/.
>>415437
It's the inability to attract a mate, thus their mind attempts to rationalize that it's something wrong with women rather than themselves. Poor hygiene, an terrible body and posture, awful social skills won't get you very far in life. Women are attracted to confidence, mental stability and health. Something the average 4chaner probably doesn't have.
They can blame the "Chads" all they want for having it better in life. Chances are Mr. Chad isn't some awkward manchild with greasy hair and a potbelly.
>>415437
Same reason we're fascists, people don't fit in society and end up spending their nights on computers which is pretty fun
Almost all women are nothing without a social life and their character is sculpted by it, so they're the polar opposite. And be it as a result or as a consequence, they vote way more on the left than men
>>415516
Hi rebbit
>>415437
>Honestly say women are basically equal to men and can largely do the same thing
Because they can't. The sexes are different. It's not a social construct, it's not misogyny, it's biology.
>>389844
Isn't Kenau an old word for bitch in Dutch?
>>389571
just gonna mention the fact that 40% of buried viking raiders (i.e. those buried with weapons and armor in their graves) are female, but i guess you people are too enlightened to listen to statistics
>>415801
You say this as though it's at all insightful or profound, when really everyone already knows about this.
People in this thread just want to discuss female warriors, not everything has to have your personal political biases shoehorned into it.
>>415886
>say that women are largely physically as capable as men
>everyone knows they aren't
>cry when people point it out
>>415866
I'm not gonna lie, I've been arguing for shieldmaidens this whole thread and I think 40% sounds like a huge exaggeration. Then again, the Vikings were hit-and-run raiders, so in many cases they wouldn't have fought anybody other than unarmed monks.
>>415909
>disagreeing = crying
lol nice hivemind hugbox
>>415866
Source or fuck off, lad. And don't link that recent finding of graves that turned out to be the wives of settlers.
>>415913
Being buried with an object doesn't mean you used it during your life.
>>415801
Right, all the mad guys ITT are mad because of what they perceive to be a misrepresentation of statistical biological facts. Because this is what they care about, biology.
>>415933
No I didn't, that was someone else.
>>415942
Note that the actual argument has not actually been addressed. Rather, this poster seeks to change the subject because he knows that actually talking about the biological differences in average strength between men and women would make women look extremely weak in comparison.
>>415920
>Being buried with an object doesn't mean you used it during your life.
There is literally no other reason to bury a sword with somebody other than if it was his/her sword.
>>416020
I probably know as little about the topic as you do, but my guess is that the average woman is weaker than the average man. This however, does not mean that all men are stronger than all women, which seems to be what you'd need to be the case in order to outright dismiss any discussion of females in historical combat situations.
>>416062
I never said that women never fought in wars. I'm not that autistic. I'm just saying that your post was DANGEROUSLY close to "You're not a real man if you disagree with me!" feminist-tier arguing.
The problem isn't that there is a gap in average strength, the problem is that the gap is HUGE. I'm saying that you need to be one of the strongest women in the world just to compete with the AVERAGE man.
>>416084
>I'm just saying that your post was DANGEROUSLY close to "You're not a real man if you disagree with me!" feminist-tier arguing.
Well to be fair, I'm 100% certain that the vast majority of posters that get attracted to this sort of thread care for this sort of statistics not because of a genuine interest in biology, but because of a hatred of women in general that goes amazingly well with, you said it, not being a real man in my book.
Apart from that, this sort of statistics applies to modern day people, with modern day diets, modern day lifestyles, and modern day gender role perceptions, which I daresay do not exactly motivate women to train for strength. Not that I know anything about what kind of life the average female warrior had, because that kind of stuff isn't really what interests me in history, I was really just stopping by to comment at your comment (I wasn't the person you originally replied to).
>>416127
>this sort of statistics applies to modern day people, with modern day diets, modern day lifestyles, and modern day gender role perceptions, which I daresay do not exactly motivate women to train for strength.
Except the chart specifically accounts for that by including a separate column for top-tier female athletes. Even there, the absolute top is only slightly higher than the average for males.
>>416148
I am quite acutely aware of this, but it does not specify what sort of athletes we're talking about, and the strength measured is specific hand-grip strength. Again, I know fuck all about this, but I wouldn't be surprised if you found the majority of women athletes in disciplines that neither emphasize nor particularly train hand grip strength.
>>416165
>the majority of women athletes in disciplines that neither emphasize nor particularly train hand grip strength.
Majority is irrelevant for determining the top.
>>416170
It just says 'elite female athletes', not what disciplines they were selected from. Come to think about it, if, as we agree on, women are on average weaker than men, the most excellent female athletes, as in, those who surpass both their female and male competition in their discipline, will be from disciplines that do not emphasize those things men are on average better at.
>>416192
That's nice, but majority is still irrelevant for determining the top.
>>389571
It baffles my mind that there are people who are extremely cautious in admitting high strength differences between the sexes.
Like, where the fuck have you lived? Who brainwashed you this much?
Have you ever had a female friend with which you played rough games and then suddenly you found that overpowering her became very easy?
This by the way does not mean female warriors were never a thing.
>>416216
When the top is just the top of your sample, then the majority this sample was taken from does indeed matter. What I was trying to tell you was that the actual top may be, depending on the way the sampling was done, not represented in the study.
>>416239
>Have you ever had a female friend with which you played rough games and then suddenly you found that overpowering her became very easy?
Ah the memories...for a while, I was slow in putting on weight, and my sister was actually stronger than me...
Anyway those are anecdotes, they don't fucking matter.
>>416239
See >>404062
I acknowledge the difference in male and female strength and am aware of these statistics. I come to threads like this to learn about and discuss historical women warriors like >>391735 and >>399162 because I think they're interesting.
Statistics about male and female strength belong in a thread on that subject. The reason you get the accusations of muh-soggy-knee, is because EVERY SINGLE TIME somebody wants to talk about the historical Order of the Hatchet or the current Kataeb Souriyat Women's Battlion, the thread gets flooded with people wanting to go on and on about women fighters not being as common as men and about statistics showing women on average are significantly weaker than men. Those facts have no bearing on the thread. We're here to talk about the awesome outliers, not biological averages. Take that to a thread on that subject. /fit/, /k/, and maybe /sci/ would be better places to have that discussion.
>>416264
>Anyway those are anecdotes, they don't fucking matter.
Oh god, the autism. I was talking about the psychological history of their belief, not the reasons why their belief is wrong.
I was wondering how it is possible that they would find male-female strength differences so strange that they have to cautious about it.
>>416465
I don't disagree with anything you've said.
>>416239
>It baffles my mind that there are people who are extremely cautious in admitting high strength differences between the sexes.
We live in a post-feminist society where suggesting that a woman is not equal or superior to a man in any context can result in job loss, or in some countries, jail. People are thus naturally reticent to acknowledge the truth. Of course, some people truly buy into the meme and they're outraged when somebody pops their bubble.
Anyone mentioned Anne Bonny yet?
I'd say she was a pretty great warrior.
>>389571
Roughly half of all viking remains tested this far were female and were buried with swords and shields. Granted few have actually been tested.
Skipping snipers, here's a couple more.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadezhda_Durova
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecaterina_Teodoroiu
>>415866
>>416885
Source when?
>>415866
just gonna mention the fact that 100% of your post is horseshit
>>389663
>"A whole troop of foreigners would not be able to withstand a single Celt if he called his wife to his assistance. The wife is even more formidable. She is usually very strong, and has blue eyes; in rage her neck veins swell, she gnashes her teeth, and brandishes her snow-white robust arms. She begins to strike blows mingled with kicks, as if they were so many missiles sent from the string of a catapult. The voices of these women are formidable and threatening, even when they are not angry but being friendly." - Ammianus Marcellinus
Ammianus quote on Celtic Women. All I got. Any anons know anything about em?
>>389827
>It's funny because if the tall muscular women had a spear the short guy would be dead first just because of the reach advantage
Or not. The Romans were famously short compared to the people they defeated.
>>405405
>The impracticality of putting women in that era's warfare makes it seem highly unlikely.
Have you seen the impracticality in doing so in today's warfare. For U. S. forces it's fucking horrendous, especially the Marines.
>>415731
Like 4chan is any better.
>>420267
For the most part old timey female (and male) warriors didn't carry a damn military surplus store on their backs. I can see a female warrior doing significantly better in some decent leather gear.
>>415919
>>417080
Pretty sure he's talking about this.
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/sciencefair/post/2011/07/invasion-of-the-viking-women-unearthed/1
However, his conclusion is very much exaggerated. The evidence indicates that their MAY have been significant numbers of female warriors but doesn't by any means prove or support the 40% number. Also see this:
http://www.missedinhistory.com/blog/raining-on-your-parade-about-those-women-viking-warriors/
