Is Islam more theologically liberal than Christianity? I've talked to a few friends who say it is, but none of them are Muslims (well, one identifies as one, but she hasn't read any Hadiths, she drinks and I don't think she's ever set foot in a mosque). So I'm addressing my question to actual Muslims.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMQjyRc7eiY
>>388167
It's more liberal than Catholicism
though modern versions of Christianity are probably equal to Islam
>>388167
No.
Islam in general is neither more, nor less liberal than Christianity in general. You're mistaking reality with the naïve and sappy ideals of white guilt ridden leftist loonies with a pathological passive-aggressive antipathy towards their parent culture and never grew out of their rebellious teen phase as flower children of the 1960s.
>>388185
>It's more liberal than Catholicism
Top fucking kek
>>388167
>not a muslim
>identifies as one
disgusting
>>388167
Protestants can believe whatever the fuck they want. I'd call that pretty liberal.
>>388167
No.
Even super strict churches don't sanction the death penalty for sinning.
>>388167
Islam was no central authority which has its pros and cons.
>>388258
>what are caliphates
D U N C E
U
N
C
E
>>388214
>Islam in general is neither more, nor less liberal than Christianity in general.
Theologically liberal. I assume the OP meant how it allows various theological views to still be called orthodox. You're allowed to follow any of the madhabs which have vastly different interpretations on a lot of stuff, and still be called a valid Muslim by your coreligionists who follow a different madhab. And most mainline Sunni and Shi'a see each other as valid, even if a bit misguided.
As to whether it's liberal as in politically liberal, then the question makes no sense. Liberalism is an European idea which came about from the secularization of Christian paradigm. It's not an absolute value. You might just as well ask if Islam is right wing or left wing.
>>388167
That white guy was a giant fag.
>>388258
What about the Shias?
I'm a bit ignorant on this topic but isn't the Ayatollah their version of the pope?
And what if an actual caliphate (not ISIS) was resurrected?
Would the caliph be the Sunnis central authority?
>>388265
>Caliphates
>Central authority like the pope
SILLY
I
L
L
Y
>>388269
In Iran it's a theocracy, so the state is indeed a central authority.
However for Shiites outside of Iran there's no religion wide authority.
>>388233
How is she not a muslim? It's a religion. Muhammed Ali was a muslim.
>>388167
>theologically more liberal
Are you joking? Sharia Law countries are totalitarian shitholes. You can get arrested for swearing overtly or hugging someone publicly.
That woman lives in America. Not Saudi Arabia.
>>388167
Islam is theologically more liberal if you find the idea of fatalism to be liberating. Instead of being the children of God, humans would instead be the toys of Allah.
>In more esoteric terms, Allah would be the grid people pass through when they die.
>>388185
In practice, I'd say Catholicism is as or more liberal than most Protestant sects. At the very least it isn't actively hostile to science and it is more open to changing doctrines than denominations which see the bible as the alpha and omega of right and wrong.
Islam isn't homogeneous. I know Muslims who smoke weed and drink like its their job, and I know others who are Westernized, but still take its religious practices somewhat seriously.
And then, of course, there are the crazies, but every group has their share.
>>388265
Caliphates are just one guy proclaiming that he/or a select group are the CA
>>388276
>Muhammed Ali was a muslim.
He was a member of the Nation of Islam, a organization that is basically a mixture of Black Supremacism and Islam. They have a different theology than Shia or Sunni Muslims and nor are they recognized as actual Muslims by either groups.
>>388272
>A caliphate (Arabic: خِلافة khilāfa) is a form of Islamic government led by a caliph (Arabic: خَليفة khalīfah About this sound pronunciation )—a person considered a political and religious successor to the Islamic prophet, Muhammad (Muhammad ibn ʿAbdullāh), and a leader of the entire Muslim community.[1]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate
>>388269
Caliphs are the supreme spiritual leader, but they don't have the same religious powers that a central authority in the Christian sense would imply.
>>388283
This is an American board, and as a result we classify every group as either good or bad. You can fuck right off with your Muslim apologism
>>388292
Churches are just one guy proclaiming that he/or a select group are the CA
>>388167
When they say "theologically liberal" do they mean actual theology or in relation to secular attitudes?
Because I have a feeling it's the latter.
>>388281
>open to changing doctrines
Really? I'm surprised, because I'm Orthodox and my Church is super against changing doctrine. I would have thought Catholicism would be more like that.
>>388298
Because the church in Islam comes from the laity rather than from an educated and organized priestly class it's entirely possible for large portions of the religion to disagree with your claim to being caliph, as usually happened after the first few caliphs.
There is literally no way for caliphs in recent centuries to press their authority outside of their immediate political jurisdiction.
>>388324
>rather than from an educated and organized priestly class
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imam
Stop posting
>>388310
For all the voodoo bullshit that Catholicism entails, it has actually done a pretty good job adapting to the times.
>>388336
>voodoo bullshit
Go to bed ahmed
>>388330
>I have literally no idea what an Imam is
Read your own link, you retard.
>The person that should be chosen according to Hadith is one who has most knowledge of the Qu'ran, and Sunnah (prophetic tradition) and is of good character; the age being irrelevant
Anyone can be an Imam with zero formal training or official recognition. It's not like a priest.
>>388348
>citation needed
Also, that has nothing to do with me calling out your bullshit that
> in Islam comes from the laity rather than from an educated and organized priestly class
They clearly do have an educated and organized priestly class in imams. Anybody could become a priest as well in Christianity,so there is no difference in that sense
>>388296
>Muhammed Ali
He became Sunni after he did the haj
>>388269
>I'm a bit ignorant on this topic but isn't the Ayatollah their version of the pope?
Ayatollah is just a honorific title for a senior Islamic jurist. A Grand Ayatollah is a honorific for a marja, someone who published his own book of fatwas, ie. rulings according to Islamic law. So basically an equivalent of a professor in Western education system. There are thousands of ayatollahs and about 100 grand ayatollahs. Some of them are even female, because Shi'a jurisprudence doesn't ban women from studying Islamic law.
What you're thinking of is the Vali-e faghih-e Iran, Guardian Jurist of Iran. Basically, the Shi'a worldwide believe that the rightful leader of Muslims is the Imam. But the last Imam went into hiding and will only return during the Apocalypse, so mortal, secular rulers rule people in his stead. Before tthe Islamic revolution in Iran, the idea of monarchy was thoroughly compromised, so some clerics came up with the idea that instead of a secular ruler, a cleric should act as a regent of sorts until the last Imam returns. This regent doesn't even have to be a grand ayatollah as per the Iranian constitution. In fact, the current one, Ali Khamenei isn't. And the office of Guardian Jurist is semi-democratically elected. In theory, he's elected by an Assembly of Experts which might be likened to the American electors/court supreme and is directly democratically elected. But in reality, the previous Guardian Jurist Ruhollah Khomeini just nominated his successor, and the Assembly followed.
The Guardian Jurist also carries the title of Leader of the Islamic Revolution or Supreme Leadership Authority, which is why he's often called Supreme Leader in English sources.
OP's pic is just someone being as anti-establishment as possible. Nothing in Islam would allow such degeneracy.
>>388365
>Citation
As I said, your own goddamn link.
>They clearly do have an educated and organized priestly class in imams. Anybody could become a priest as well in Christianity,so there is no difference in that sense
1. Imams are not formally educated or organized, they're members of the laity that are recognized as particularly moral and knowledgeable.
2. Anyone can become a priest in most protestant sects because they have the same principle in that religious leaders come from the laity. In Catholicism and other organized sects only the clergy can be priests, and have to go to school for years to do so.
>>388461
>As I said, your own goddamn link.
It says "citation needed" in the article you illiterate fuck
>>388167
idont knpww christanity so icant cimpare but islam isnot libral
>>388475
If you need a citation for that, you're really just telling us how little you know about Islam. Do you need a citation to believe that Muslims care about Mecca?
>>388475
Is that the end of your counter-argument?
>>388167
Judge a religion by how it treats it's apostates.
Christians don't care
Jehovah Witnesses & Mormons ostracize
Muslims kill
>>388461
>knowledgeable
And how do you gain this knowledge? Is it magic? They need some sort of education to learn that stuff shitbird
>only the clergy can be priests
Anyone can go down the path of becoming a priest
>>388505
>down the path of becoming a priest
Thats the difference. Islam has no path to become an imam. Any jerkoff can become one whenever they choose.
>>388167
Islam's schools of learning and thought are in no way Liberal in the political sense or even the philosophical sense. The whole goal of Islam is to venerate God and to literally be his 'slave', 'slave' is a term that is used consistently thoughout Islam.
As a whole, Islam is far more structured than Christianity at the moment due to the lack of seperation of church and state in the Middle East. There are Muslim banking institutions, for example, and Sharia courts in some countries exist alongside legal courts, while in the West, we do not have third-party courts based on such religions (aside from Sharia courts in some countries).
The people that claim to be Muslim and Liberal are nothing more than contrarian SJWs who seek to give Islam a good name for whatever reason when it is Anathema to SJWs in the most honest and truest of ways.
It is also worthy to note that those claiming to be Liberal and Muslim and Queer and all of this never cite any passages and it's all about what they perceive to be as identity.
(I'm not an actual Muslim either.)
>>388510
>in the West, we do not have third-party courts based on such religions
What are Mormons, son
>>388167
Absolutely haram
>>388508
>>388499
>>388492
https://m.reddit.com/r/islam/comments/2u3mup/question_how_does_one_go_about_becoming_a_imam/
> The process to become a qualified imam is relatively similar to becoming a priest. One has to go through years of training in traditional Islamic sciences
I trust the word of this guy more than I trust your bullshit
>>388505
>And how do you gain this knowledge? Is it magic? They need some sort of education to learn that stuff shitbird
No, they really don't. They're classed as knowledgeable based on the judgement of the congregation rather than a central authority.
It's similar to how you can know a lot about a particular subject and be recognized as such by your peers, but you may not have a formal education in that subject.
>Anyone can go down the path of becoming a priest
Yes, in an extremely long-sighted way anyone can be a priest. But to be a priest you need the training and the qualifications.
There are no qualifications for being an Imam apart from being Muslim and appointed by the congregation. It's much more decentralized and democratic than the very Catholic concept of professional clergy.
>>388524
The second comment
>First, you have to realize that an imam is not equivalent to a priest/minister. An imam is just the man who is appointed to lead prayers in a masjid. They have usually memorized a large portion of the Qur'an and can recite it fluently.
>>388524
>I believe this guy, because he agrees with me.
Additionally, the very next comment points out what you're not understanding.
>First, you have to realize that an imam is not equivalent to a priest/minister. An imam is just the man who is appointed to lead prayers in a masjid. They have usually memorized a large portion of the Qur'an and can recite it fluently.
>What you seem to be asking though, is how does a person go about joining the scholarly class of Islam, the equivalent of rabbis and priests. That's a completely different process. Of course, the person who becomes a scholar will often be asked to be an imam as well, but they are two distinct things.
>>388538
11 upvotes > 3 upvotes. Therefore you are wrong
>>388545
>I believe this guy, because he agrees with me
>you go on to make the same conclusion except with the second comment
>>388552
I think he's just pointing out that both of you (le reddit person and yourself) are ignorant blowhards pretending to know what you don't.
>>388214
I don't think you understand what "Liberal" means.
>>388283
You do understand that those Muslims, that you know, would be the ones considered crazy (well more likely grave sinners/"coconut" muslims) by the vast majority of the Muslim faith right? And that, if they moved back to a Muslim country and didn't change their behavior they would most likely be killed?
It seems some in this thread forgot to read the first sentence.
>Is Islam more THEOLOGICALLY liberal than Christianity?
It isn't. The simplest way to illustrate this is to look at how each group treats people of different views in their religion.
Christians are encouraged to accept other denominations as brothers, and while they may have different views, the fact that they all share the idea that Jesus sacrificed himself for Man and had spoken a message of love unites them. Now obviously some denominations care less for a unification than others, but you never hear of violence between denominations because of any religious reason nowadays.
Islam on the other hand has been at war with itself since it's inception. Everyday a village of Shia's, Sunni's, of Sufists gets massacred just because they followed the wrong successor of MUHammed . The reason for this is because the Koran DEMANDS a submission to God, and thus a submission to the Koran and to the theocracy that governs you (it also demands that there must be a theocracy). The Koran must be taken literally, and anything else must be treated with harsh punishment. Yet the narrative is incomplete, and won't be until only one sect of Islam remains.
This would be considered radical by Western standards, and most Muslims are radical. Simple as that. Yes you can have individual westerners who identify themselves as "Muslims" but generally they are just as Muslim as you and I (not at all).
>>388552
I agree with him because he is right.
http://islam.about.com/od/prayer/tp/Imam.htm
>>388578
>And that, if they moved back to a Muslim country and didn't change their behavior they would most likely be killed?
>most Muslims are radical
I see you also get your knowledge of Islam from Donald Trump.
Imam can mean two things. Spiritual leader, and someone who leads communal prayers. The former requires training, the latter does not.
>>388578
pic related
>>388587
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7TAAw3oQvg
No just from actual studies of actual mass Muslim opinion. Though please if you have contrary evidence please refute.
>>388538
idiot
>>388605
>actual mass Muslim opinion
>posts some jewish guy
>no agenda here
>>388603
>No because X
>BAAAIIT
Wow what a concise criticism.
>>388610
>Citing accurate studys.
>JEW XD Xd Xd Xd
Wow you muslims are some fierce debaters lol.
>>388167
What the fuck does "theologically liberal" even mean?
Is trinitarianism more or less theologically liberal than belief in the unity of god? What about belief in the supremacy of the Qur'an versus supremacy of the bible?
>>388578
>Christians are encouraged to accept other denominations as brothers
ayy, great bonding here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussite_Wars
>>388605
Gee thank goodness this nobody gave sources in his 100% true Youtube video!! He's obviously not biased and creating vague and incredibly broad criteria for determining "radicalization"!
>>388587
I know a few pretty secularized Muslims who've straight up told me that if the people back where they came from knew what kind of lives they lead here, they'd be in mortal danger if they ever returned. This varies depending on what part of the world any given Muslim is from, of course. The ones I know hail from some pretty back-ass regions of Iran and Afghanistan. Generally Muslims from countries that are in geographically close proximity to Europe tend to be more chill.
>>388645
Good point, but I am speaking in a modern context.
>>388647
>All facts come form Pew Research
>http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/
Maybe you should actually watch the video, hmm? Pic related.
>>388659
Turkey and the Maghreb are the most "tolerant" for that kind of life. Thy would be viewed as whores and sinners but they wouldn't risk anyhing.
Can't say the same about the middle east...
>>388167
Shia = imams interpret the text on behalf of their followers. Can be more liberal, though obviously it depends on the imam.
Sunni = a degree of flexibility, as they also use consensus-based decision-making on top of the holy texts.
Wahhabism = branch of Sunni Islam, and as literal as it gets. Everybody learns directly from the Quran. No room for interpretation.
Sufism = extremely literal following of the Quran, but also have a second 'inner layer' of spiritual practice which isn't found elsewhere. Arguably makes them the most liberal, as they effectively have their own self-made canon. On the other hand, they tend to be more devoted theologically than any other branch, so they're least likely to go against the Quran.
You'd have to compare each of these against the various Christian schools of thought. Obviously there's no meaningful overall answer.
>>388167
you can get anything out of every one of the main religius traditions if you just warp it enough with pick and chose tactics.
But the general theme of islam is far more restrictive then the chatolic or protestant faiths.
If you look at Sharia for instance it's a communal thing. Where the umah and the umah of the scolars decede what is right and wrong. Good luck deviating from it.
>>388578
this
I had some bosnian friends living here, then they were slaughtered, when they moved back to bosnia.
Those poor Srebrenica secular muslims...
>>388677
>>All facts come form Pew Research
Surveys are not facts, nor are their interpretations. They're just surveys, snapshots of public opinion, and lack individual case studies for the reasons behind these opinions, the nature of their desired implementation if any, etc.
>>388733
>Good luck deviating from it.
It's not that hard. All it takes is a sufficiently sized community under a like minded theologian.
>>388925
Yeah exactly, and most muslims are radicals. You didn't even read the article did you?
>>388938
No, most Muslims are not radicals. The study has been floating on the web for years now, and I've had a long time to realize how not to misread it like every copy-pasta that quotes it does.
