Opinions on Hellenismos? Is it just an ironic muh heritage cosplay? How can you mystify and worship nature in the 21st century?
>>387829
>Is it just an ironic muh heritage cosplay?
Isn't that all religion?
>>387829
>Hellenismos
As in the beginner's guide? Probably a bit weak, though flipping through they seem to know what they're on about.
That said, there are many people reconstructing the Greek systems using publications of academic collections of Sacred Law, what fragments we have of the Mystery Cult material, and Jake Stratton Kent's Greek Magical Papyrus. Large swaths of that material's covered in my library linked in the occultism thread.
>>387848
Huh, going through their recommended reading, in Alexander's Beginner's Guide, they mention Stephen Flowers but not JSK.
For those interested in Greek praxis I'd recommend his Geosophia and comments on the rite of the Headless One.
Have a 1 hour documentary on it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ibz4Ti3NszE
>>388033
Nice, I'll watch later.
I still looks like a bunch of cosplay hobbyists. How can you live in an apartment and take this stuff seriously?
I thought the whole idea was that ancient Greeks lived fundamentally different lifestyles and were more symbiotically in tune with nature. I could understand if they leave and form a kind of Epicurean commune but these people look like urban city dwellers for the most part.
>>388053
Greeks were relatively metropolitan even in the classical period.
By the Hellenistic and Roman periods they were the most metropolitan people living outside of Rome proper, probably.
>>388079
So you do the rituals and then go home? Did the ancients not take it that seriously then?
I thought the sacred and the profane was more blurred in ancient times.
>>388103
Well for one thing Greek polytheism was largely voluntary? You chose what gods you prayed to and for what you were praying. Certain things required praying to a certain god.
The only 'mandatory' ceremonies and rituals were state-festivals, where you would honour a god or goddess as a polis in gratitude for their gifts. The Athenian Thesmophoria for instance. Or the Pan Athenaic Procession. Or the ceremony of Artemis Ephesia at Ephesus.
It was as much a civic duty as a religious one. The general populace believed in the gods but it was not some weird nature-cult. You did your shit, you went to feast, you went home. For daily/personal things you'd skip the feast part.
What would you call taking it seriously?
>>387829
This is fucking not history ! (those kind of events took place less than 25 years ago)
MODS PLEASE !
>>388134
>The general populace believed in the gods but it was not some weird nature-cult.
Tell that to the equinoctial priests of Eleusis. From what we gather the first initiation was almost entirely related to seasonal change and the harvest.
>>388147
Eleusis wasn't part of larger Greek polytheism. Demeter at Eleusis, Cult of Dionysus, Orphism were all mystery religions.
>>388140
>Humanities
Happens to include Theology. Hellenismo is a religion. And even if it weren't, there is historical discussion going on in the thread.
>>388162
Or, just maybe, Hellenic religion had an initiatory mystery component.
I don't see how the Eleusinian cult is mutually exclusive to Hellenic paganism.
>>388147
>>388162
Also, how is it surprising that Demeter, goddess of the harvest, has a ritual linked to harvest season?
>>388170
But that is wrong. Not all Greeks and adherents to Hellenic Polytheism were initiates into mystery religions. It's believed that they had relatively exclusive membership until the Hellenistic or Roman periods.
For instance, Demeter at Eleusis was originally for women only. And we have evidence that it's purpose was to prepare young girls for marriage.
>>388175
Certainly, but to claim that Eleusis was wasn't part of a larger Hellenic tradition of paganism just seems...weird as fuck to me.
Ok, so you reject the idea that the Eleusinian cult was representative of Greek attitudes on nature...what about the GMP's adoration to nymphs, nixies, dryads, and other various spirits of nature?
>>388168
You can't argue that discussing about a New Age stream is a relevant historical discussion only because people happen to speak about ancient Greeks in order to justify their argument.
>>388182
Look, the ancients obviously observed nature and the season and nature at large played important roles in daily, civic, and religious life.
Nobody is or can argue otherwise. It is obvious that a goddess responsible for harvests, fertility, and crops is going to have rituals during a period relevant to her domain.
That said, the ancient Greeks were not these wholistic, religiously obsessed nature lovers that people seem to think they were.
The mystery religions of Dionysus and Demeter were connected to the larger picture of Hellenic Polytheism for the obvious reason that Demeter and Dionysus were two of the Twelve Olympians. That aside, ritual worship my members of those cults was no observed by the larger Greek population.
The larger Greek population was not aware of Eleusian rituals, because they were secret - you did not share them with outsiders and non initiates.
The difference between a mystery religion and polytheism should be plainly obvious. Dionysus. Demeter/Persephone. Notice how neither includes other gods?
Furthermore, Hellenic polytheism did not promise a life after death, reincarnation, heaven, etc. You died and you went to Hades and that was that my friend. If you lived a good, pious life you were rewarded in life. Mystery cults DID have an afterlife component - which is the chief reason that Christians wanted to eliminate them. In the process the Christians slandered Eleusius and adopted tenants of Orphism.
>>387829
>mystify and worship nature in the 21st century
I don't know much about Hellenismos specifically, but plenty of people do this today.
>>388398
>But my Elysian Fields!
Were not life after death, and they weren't heaven. They were a realm of Hades, and on top of that the role Elysium played in Hellenic polytheism is ambiguous at best judging from things like mythology. And, yes, mythology does constitute the hellenic polytheistic equivalent to a religious canon.
Reading Homer you'll notice that while the fields are mentioned, nobody goes there and none of the heroes Odysseus encounters in Hades appear to be having a good time despite 1) being the greatest heroes of their generation 2) being the progeny of gods and 3) partaking in the greatest war of the greatest age of men (although to be fair if I use this point I should mention that Hesoid did believe they went to Elysium and lived happily ever after).
>>388398
>The larger Greek population was not aware of Eleusian rituals, because they were secret - you did not share them with outsiders and non initiates.
I'd say they were aware of them, but did not have initiation to partake in them. I can't see them remaining in obscurity when even by the time of the decline of Rome people interested in mystic worship went to Eleusis.
>The difference between a mystery religion and polytheism should be plainly obvious. Dionysus. Demeter/Persephone. Notice how neither includes other gods?
What I'm getting at is over two initiations you got a run of info on three gods...and this isn't polytheism...how exactly? Moreover if I wanna keep the mystery cults out of it GMP also makes adorations to a slew of Hellenistic gods and spirits.
IMO, saying the mystery cults were somehow 'not Hellenic polytheism' is kinda like saying Rosicrucianism isn't Christian or Kabbalah isn't Jewish.
Also, >>388433
>>388398
You sure did read some Eliade, mate. Good points, especially on the afterlife. Interestingly, the "mystery religions" offering a better alternative after death is a constant in mediterranean ancient religions.
In Egypt, initially the afterlife was only for the pharaoh. It was only later when aristocracy and common people learned the formulas which were supposed to guarantee them eternal life.
In Mesopotamia, the afterlife was a horrific place. In Gilgamesh epic, Gilgamesh summons Enkidu from the netherworld, and asks him how is it. Enkidu replies that Gilgamesh would be in tears if he heard the whole truth. Same thing with ancient Judaism, the afterlife was just slumber in Sheol. It was only the invention of the Messiah which gave people hope of resurrection.
Which makes for a pretty shitty realisation that since Book of Job is the oldest one in the Bible chronologically, it's even more horrifying in ancient Judaism than in Christianity. For Christians, Job's suffering is offset by promise of eternal life. But at the point when it was written, the only prize Job would receive for his trials would be slumber in the abyss of Sheol.
>>388789
>I'd say they were aware of them, but did not have initiation to partake in them.
You can say it, but that doesn't make it true. The first non-initiate to enter the temple at Eleusius was Marcus Aurelius, and he was also the first male initiate AFAIK.
> I can't see them remaining in obscurity when even by the time of the decline of Rome people interested in mystic worship went to Eleusis.
By the decline of Rome I assume you mean the 3rd century AD? Yeah that's wonderful, except that you're referring to a time that is 700 years removed from the High Classical period when Eleusis was still very much a secret girls club.
>What I'm getting at is over two initiations you got a run of info on three gods...and this isn't polytheism...how exactly?
Eleusian Mysteries were dedicated to Demeter and Persephone. That's two gods. I also didn't claim that the mysteries were polytheistic. They were simply concerned with only 1 (or 2) gods. The Eleusian mysteries didn't worship Zeus, Athena, Artemis, etc. That isn't to say adherents did not also worship those gods, but it was outside the scope of the Mystery Cult.
Which is another thing: There was no distinction between worship and membership in different religions. This is most obviously demonstrated by what I said above, but also by the syncretisms of oriental/asian deities with Greek ones: see Cyprus, Ephesus, Syria, Palestine, Egypt.
'Hellenistic Polytheism' refers to the popular worship of the 12 Olympians as a Pantheon.
>>387829
>How can you mystify and worship nature in the 21st century?
The same way you mystify and worship a big man in the sky.
>>388955
*I also didn't claim that the mysteries -weren't- polytheistic.
Now, as for 'popular worship' I refer to common sacrifice and prayer to gods. This was done during festivals and Polises typically had their own festivals - there was no unified worship of the 12 Olympians in ancient Greece and the closest you got were pan-hellenic festivals at sanctuaries. ie: Artemis at Brauron and Olympics for Zeus at Olympia and Artemis at Ephesus. Also Hera at Olympia. Apollo at Delphi.
But most worship, as in, 99% of it, would have occurred uniquely and locally at festivals like the Pan Athenia and Thesmophoria (examples of exclusively Athenian worship).
>IMO, saying the mystery cults were somehow 'not Hellenic polytheism' is kinda like saying Rosicrucianism isn't Christian or Kabbalah isn't Jewish.
If you aren't aware of the differences between a mystery cult and hellenic polytheism or roman polytheism you need to pick up a book, I am sorry.
All Greeks were Hellenic Polytheists, only a few were part of Mystery Religions. The two weren't exclusive but they were radically different as I've tried to explain by pointing out membership, focus, and with the afterlife.
>>388955
>Eleusian Mysteries were dedicated to Demeter and Persephone. That's two gods. I also didn't claim that the mysteries were polytheistic. They were simply concerned with only 1 (or 2) gods. The Eleusian mysteries didn't worship Zeus, Athena, Artemis, etc. That isn't to say adherents did not also worship those gods, but it was outside the scope of the Mystery Cult.
Greater mysteries covered Dionysus/Bacchus.
>>388965
I recognize that there are differences, just as there are differences between Kabbalah and mainstream Judaic worship, but I'd hardly call them entirely separate religions.
What book would you recommend I pick up to help establish the division, as I appear to be in need of reading material.
>>387829
Yeah dude, why revere nature when you can play candy crush on your iphone? Go back to reddit
>>388988
Moreover, I thought men and women were allowed, as per A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities by Smith but it's older than fuck, so I could entirely be wrong.
>>387829
It's retarded stuff for crazy people.
You can't reconstruct that "religion". You can't do it without all its now lost everyday traditions which are its essence.
>>387843
What evangelicals are dressing up like ancient Israelites?
>>389031
Not Israelites, but these guys are cosplaying pretty hard
>>388965
>>388988
In many cases the mystery religions were of foreign origin, usually Asiatic, and given a Greek veneer. Orphism, the Dionysian mysteries, the cult of Attis, etc are all almost definitely Hellenized editions of religions and rituals from abroad. That would make the mystery religions sort-of-but-not-quite part of Hellenic polytheism.
>>388855
In every ancient religion the dead are dangerous because they are envious of the living beings.
>>388997
Men were only allowed after it'd been opened my Aurelius.
>but I'd hardly call them entirely separate religions.
That's because there is virtually no divide between religions in antiquity, with the exception of the Abrahamic religions. Like I said, look at the types of worship that occurred on Cyprus, at Ephesus, in Syria, in Palestine, and in Egypt.
>What book would you recommend I pick up to help establish the division, as I appear to be in need of reading material.
Most of my dedicated reading is about Artemis @ Ephesus but if you aren't adverse to textbooks Classical Myth by Barry Powell explores mysteries pretty well including: Demeter/Persephone at Eluesis, Dionysus, Attis & Cybele, Adonis, Orphism.
Thought it also included Mithraic Mysteries but it apparently does not, so heres a wiki link for that one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraic_mysteries
Anyways, obviously the mysteries concerning Greek gods were part of the larger Hellenic Polytheistic tradition, but things like promising adherents a reward is <radically> distinct from Hellenic Polytheism as a whole. It may be the chief difference.
Polytheists didn't care about the promise of rewards, they cared about monotheism. So Mystery cults were OK, monotheists weren't. Some perspective for you, Christianity was a mystery religion in antiquity and it was outlawed because of it's strict monotheism.
>>389101
Hell, I'll take 'sort of not quite' over 'not at all the same'.
Moreover, found a more recent .edu citation on the participants of the mysteries:
>Only those who spoke Greek and had shed no blood (or had subsequently been purified) were eligible to participate in the rituals at Eleusis. Each new initiate, known as a "mystes," would receive preliminary instructions and guidance from an experienced sponsor, or "mystagogos," who was often from one of the leading families of Eleusis. A mystes who returned a second time to Eleusis for induction into the highest levels of esoteric knowledge was known as an epoptes.
http://www.bsu.edu/classes/magrath/305s01/demeter/eleusis.html
Thesmophoria was female only, but were only related to and a component of the rites, not the rites themselves.
>>387829
>mystify and worship nature in the 21st century?
As opposed to all the other shit in every other religion?
If anything with how the environment is the deciding factor in us living or not, it kind of makes sense to cradle her balls.
>>389126
>Thought it also included Mithraic Mysteries but it apparently does not, so heres a wiki link for that one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraic_mysteries
I'm pretty well set on material from the GMP, but thanks for the other recommendations.
I've been trying to shore up my resources on the Mystery Cults in my library over in the occult thread; obviously I've still got some mileage to go.
Any further or more in depth recommendations? I've a degree in archaeology, don't be afraid to link me to heavy academia and there are a few Hellenic reconstructionists that follow my threads who'd appreciate further material.
>>389132
>>389132
Thesmophoria wasn't part of the Eleusian Mysteries. It was an Athenian festival restricted to women, because it was about fertility. Men could worship Demeter just not partake in that particular festival. Although, unless a farmer was praying for a good harvest or for his wife or daughters pregnancy, I don't imagine a man would ever pray to Demeter.
Artemis at Brauron was also female only, for girls under 12.
>>389154
From the same link:
>These rites were celebrated by women only throughout all Greece in the month of Pyanepsion (late October), their characteristic feature being a pig sacrifice, the usual sacrifice to chthonic deities. The Greeks attributed special powers to pigs on account of their fertility, the potency and abundance of their blood, and perhaps because of their uncanny ability to unearth underground tubers and shoots. It was believed that mingling their flesh with the seeds of grain would increase the abundance of next year's harvest. The ceremonies comprised fasting and purification, a ritualized descent into the underworld, and the use of sympathetic magic to bring renewed life back out of the jaws of death (Harrison 120-31; Baring and Cashford 374-77). Similarly, the Eleusinian Mysteries also revered swine and their rituals featured the washing and sacrificing of young pigs sacred to Demeter (although this took place on the beaches at Pireas near Athens rather than at Eleusis itself). The numerous correspondences suggest that the Eleusinian Mysteries were of a piece with the Thesmophoria, and perhaps shared the same historical origins.
Have any material that directly undermines the latter point? Not saying your outright wrong but I wanna have a clearer understanding of what was what in my head.
>>389178
I have to apologize for the Thesmophoria stuff, apparently. Seems my only sources were Athenian centric.
>>389224
Here, I JUST pulled up Jan Bremmer's "Initiation into the Mysteries of the Ancient World" published by De Gruyter in 2014:
In Chapter 1, Initiation into the Eleusinian Mysteries: A 'thin' description -
>Let us start with the identity of the average initiates. Uniquely for Greek festivals, the Mysteries were open to men and women,9 free and slaves,10 young and old,
He references the Ninnion-Pinax for men and women celebrating together:
>The central scene in the middle will be time in the month Boedromion postponed. The pious woman Ninnion and their bearded companions take part together in the mysteries in Eleusis and pilgrims before the fertility goddess Demeter, which is shown on the right. An important location-determining detail in this image sequence appears the Doric capitals, including column to be on the left edge, because it is supposed to represent the temple at Eleusis.
Now, the pinax was from between 400-350 BCE.
Pic related.
Link for info on the pinax.
http://via.lib.harvard.edu/via/deliver/deepcontentItem?recordId=olvwork300898%2CDIV.LIB.FACULTY%3A700434
>>389305
If anyone's got info or a book which derascinates the current age or interpretation of the pinax I'd like to see it as I'd rather not feed people the wrong info in the threads I participate in.
>>389305
>>389305
Yeah I am retarded. From The Homeric Hymn to Demeter:
>Demeter herself explained the rites of her cult to the kings,
>the fivers of justice - Triptolemus, Diocles, lasher of horses,
>mighty Eumolpus as well, and Celeus, ruler of people.
>To them she revealed the observance and carrying-out of her rites,
>thing which are reverend, holy, which no one must ever describe,
>into which no one may inquire, which no one may ever reveal.
>Deep reverence for the divine restrains the tongues of the careless.
>Blessed the man who in life as viewed the mysteries' ritual.
>but the uninitiated many, who have no part in their teaching,
>will have no share in a future like his when they pass below,
>when they descend to to gloom and the moldering shadow of death.
Which showcases 1) I was wrong about the female exclusive membership and 2) initiates were in fact promised a future after death, not available to others.
>>387829
What people misunderstand is that worship was not the purpose of ancient religion
>>389457
I probably should have cracked that open before the academia, but yeah.
HOPEFULLY I didn't come across as a pissy sperg, as I said I just don't want to feed bullshit to the folks in my occult thread or in comments in other threads like this one.
>>389509
It's not the purpose of modern religion, either.
See: St. John of the Cross
