Christians: Why would a benevolent deity condemn someone to eternal suffering simply for being mistaken? Not being Christian is not done out of malevolent or apathy; it is done because the person does not see sufficient evidence to believe that Christianity is truth. Most non-Christians would honor and love God and Jesus if they learned that God and Jesus are real and are benevolent. Being factually mistaken is not a crime. A benevolent deity would not condemn someone for being factually mistaken. If God is real, then good atheists and good Pagans get to go to heaven.
>If God is real, then good atheists and good Pagans get to go to heaven.
This is ultimately the reason why I cannot take any religion seriously. Not because of the idea of "good" pagans/atheists going to hell, just the entire idea in general.
The concept of sin is always changing - the concept of what is "good" and "evil" is always changing. In medieval times things like torture, beating your wife, rape, child abuse, and many other things were not only normal but encouraged. The types of people we would see as evil today (ie, Hitler) a person from 600 years ago would find as nothing more than a particularly harsh but competent and fair ruler and not consider them evil at all - especially since he killed all those damn dirty Jews.
Why is it that God always adheres to the morality of the culture and time-period of where his 'true religion' emerged from?
the 'crime' is doing nothing about your sinful nature. your belief in satan and his deception is not being mistaken, it is being led by the enemy
>>385817
>Why is it that God always adheres to the morality of the culture and time-period of where his 'true religion' emerged from?
Hmm, I wonder... Oh, right, it's obviously because God waited until a society and culture had morality down perfectly then he went to that perfect, chosen society to become their god!
>>385817
organised religion often has nothing to do with the nature of christ or the message of the bible. these are human institutions and man is flawed with sin. the lord wants true believers to recover his church from the hands of man
>>385796
>A benevolent deity would not condemn someone for being factually mistaken.
Well too bad a subjective view of benevolence isn't enough to condemn a God with an objective view
As for your question
Romans 9
19You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
Paul evidently was asked this pretty often
>this thread again
>>385826
And the winner for the most brainwashed is...
>a benevolent deity would not...
Stopped reading right there. How do you and you alone determine the actions of an omnipotent being? Anyway, I'll humor you. We have the choice to have faith in the existence of God and to live meaningful and virtuous lives (hell, for this you don't even need to be religious); we have a choice to live as God intended. If you don't see the logic in this then try looking at it from an omniscient POV. Would you guarantee a paradise in the afterlife to every single being you created? If so, then life is meaningless as everyone and everything would go to Heaven--one could act however sinfully on Earth with no repercussions.
>>385796
popular conceptions of heaven and hell do not entirely match the original writings
>>385868
>brainwashed
It's his choice what to believe. No one brainwashed him into being religious, just as no one brainwashed you into being (I'm assuming) non-religious.
>>385837
>>385836
Morality is subjective. This is staggeringly obvious to anyone who does not let their emotions and spirituality cloud their conceptions of the world. If you are raised within a culture that thoroughly drills into you the message that murder is wrong, and have it reinforced through things like stories and myths and subtle social cues, you will 99.99% of the time grow up into an adult believing that murder is wrong on at least some level.
There is no reason to believe that "good" or "evil" are anything more than cultural traditions, and that morality is anything more than the product of rigorous conditioning starting from childhood. If you let a child grow up alone, in the wild, raised by wolves (literally) they will have no conception of what morality even is, they will have no concept of what "good" or "evil" is because they did not have a human culture teaching them these concepts when they were young.
This, on top of the other glaring issue - how do you deal with autistic people, sociopaths, the mentally retarded, the mentally ill, those with learning disabilities? People who generally cannot into morality for one reason or another that is caused by a defect in their genome or physical damage to their brain. What about them? How does the concept of "good" or "evil" apply to those who biologically cannot grasp such a concept?
>>385887
>the subjective meme
Here we go
>>385871
>How do you and you alone determine the actions of an omnipotent being?
Same way priests do
>>385894
>didn't even bother reading the post
Calling it a meme doesn't change anything, friendo.
>>385887
You type very much while saying very little
>>385871
Read the fucking OP. Someone can live a moral life without believing in a religion.
>Would you guarantee a paradise in the afterlife to every single being you created?
I would guarantee it to all who seek to live morally whether or not they believe I exist.
>>385879
Then what are the popular versions and what are the original versions?
>>385880
Indeed.
>>385902
>No rebuttal
I aint even mad
>>385845
This. Morals and ethics are a plot by the Satan (damnation be upon him) to apply subjective human values to the divine. Morals and ethics are actually rooted in humanism rather than religion. All philosophers attempting to use logic to derive them are Satanically inspired.
The divine knows objective truth, which is why He laid down specific laws for man, as incomprehensible as they may be, for his law is objective righteousness. Such is the unknowable nature of God. Humans are flawed and full of sin, and there is no way for the imperfect to know the perfect. Reinterpretation of these laws through the lens of subjective human understanding is flawed by human sin.
The only thing a human must do is obey God's laws, unadulterated, in their purest form. Trying to understand God's laws is as flawed as as trying to know the unknowable. Trying to apply morals and ethics to God's laws is as flawed as trying to apply human logic to God himself.
>>385911
I swear if you use the word "demiurge" I'm abandoning thread
>>385911
How is understanding God's laws unknowable?
>>385911
So Satan is moral and ethical but God is not?
CHRISTIANS BTFO BY THEMSELVES
BTFO
T
F
O
>>385933
Whatever rationale you come up with to understand the thinking of God is flawed, except for any interpretation by a divinely inspired prophet, speaking on behalf of God using God's word, because God is perfect, and you are imperfect, and therefore you can not think like God, or comprehend, or truly rationalize God. It would be like an ant trying to understand a man. There is so much an ant can not understand or possibly know.
>>385936
Satan gives the illusion that man can determine what is right and what is wrong, and in this way, cause imperfect humans to doubt God, and put themselves ahead of God Himself, when that is fully the domain of God, and only God can determine what is righteous and what is not.
>>385972
>its unknowable and completely incomprehensible trust me guys yur like an ant
Okay faggot then how do YOU know about it and what makes you so sure you've got it right?
>>385976
That's Satan tricking you into thinking you know more than the omniscient. You can not apply limited human knowledge to the laws laid down by He who knows all.
>>385972
>>385887
>autistic people, sociopaths, the mentally retarded, the mentally ill
these are all problems of the flesh, not god. also 'morality' has little to do with the life-giving spirit of christ
>>385987
I dont know whose trolling who anymore
>>385997
It's Satan that is trolling you, and you will end up in eternal damnation for it.
>>385976
the bible is god-breathed
>>385997
i don't think anyone is trolling. the OP humours that the bible is true but that it's truth is self-contradictory. only that these conflicts don't actually exist in the bible and only through bad paraphrasing and interpretation without consulting the bible. the people answering and saying 'it's satan' are giving you examples of how the OP has not considered the bible in its entirety. answers like 'haha ur brainwashed' or 'bible isn't real' miss the point entirely. we're not talking about human morals if we are referencing the bible
>>385796
it boils down to one of to arguments,
"its god he transcends any human logic"
or
"god gave people free will to choose being damned to hell"
>>385911
I'm very new to theology. I didn't get any sort of religious education growing up.
So please inform me if I'm missing any important facts.
What makes gods truth objective? Is it the fact (I say fact from a biblical perspective) that he made us?
That makes little sense to me. My dad made me, but he sure ain't wise.
So what is it that makes divine laws objectively correct? Don't just say it's "incomprehensible". That's a cop out of explaining it. Like if I told you it was okay to murder people, even if I was an all powerful divine creator, doesn't mean that murder is objectively correct just because I say it is.
How does being full of sin automatically make God correct? Correct me if I'm wrong, but sin is just to break the law of God right? So this argument just seems really roundabout to me
>you cannot debate the morality of my law, because you broke my law
>>385972
I don't think humans even try to apply morality to ants. So how is it fair for this perfect God to apply laws to us that we, by your own analogy, cannot understand the reasoning behind.
>>386132
I'm not him so forgive me for intruding. Just ignore my post altogether if it isn't what you were looking for
So what makes God's truth objective is that He IS truth. Jesus said it Himself to Pilate. He created the very concept truth. It is different from your dad, in that he did not make you, or make anything for that matter. He simply conspired together all the ingredients that GOD created, in just the right circumstances that made it ideal for you to be created. God was the maker, your father, much like God's prophets in the distribution of God's truth, was simply an instrument.
>Like if I told you it was okay to murder people, even if I was an all powerful divine creator, doesn't mean that murder is objectively correct just because I say it is.
It would. Because God created good. If anyone knows what is good or evil, it would be the one who made it. and we are nowhere near that level to argue, especially simply because it makes our foolish finite minds uncomfortable.
>>386179
How do you create an abstract concept like "good"
>>386187
Well I misstated a bit
He did not "create" good. HE is what is good. He is the ideal good being. So He created creatures whom would please Him. So anything we do that pleases Him, is how we would objectively define as 'good'. Because it is to be like Him.
>>386132
God gave humans the ability to know truth. Satan gave humans doubt and skepticism and the illusion that they had the means to determine their own truth different from actual truth.
If God says it, it is objectively correct. You say if God said something, but that's a flaw in your logic, assuming God would say such a thing. God did not say such a thing, because He is perfect. God is perfect and therefore would only say what is objectively correct. God would not say something imperfect, and did not, and would not say what you said. Therefore, your argument is a moot point and you are just playing Devil's advocate, because Satan inspired you to imagine an imperfect God, which is an impossibility because God is perfect. Morality is an illusion by Satan, there is what is just and righteous as determined by God. It is God that judges you, not your fellow man.
Fairness is by definition a human moral that does not apply to God. It only applies as God applies it to humans, and only applies to humans because there are multiple humans. Fair is relative from one human to another. There is no God but God, and no concept of fairness can apply to God. There is no other God to compare fairness with. The only concept of fairness in relation to God is how he applies fairness among humans as the ultimate judge. You are being deceived by Satan to think you can apply a humanistic view of morality on God.
Man tells his pets and his livestock what is wrong and what is right. The livestock and pets do not understand why something is right or wrong, but they learn what is right or wrong or they face the wrath of man. You are a sheep. The sheep does not know why the shepherd makes them do things, but the sheep will do so, or be devoured by wolves.
>>386220
It makes me chuckle to think of someone earnestly and seriously sitting there writing stuff like this.
>>386233
But it's a troll anon.
>>386238
>never met a sincere creationist
>>386259
But I wrote those posts anon. I thought it was obvious they were satirical.
>>386263
First reply in the thread, can't help having been to a creationist school, should have realised due to 4chan
>>386278
How do I know you're not Satan? He is wily.
>>386286
If hes not Satan and you're not Satan, that must mean I'm Satan!
>>386291
I'll get you for killing my hamster, Satan.
>>385903
>Then what are the popular versions and what are the original versions?
when you die you don't instantly float to afterlife. you sit in your grave until judgement day. as I understand there's little detail of hell, heaven or even anything concrete on virtuosity.
I'm not even an authority, this is wikipedia-tier education from a person not involved in christian tradition. I'm sure there's more.
>>386332
>implying it's not God pretending to be Satan in order to test us
Fuck off Beelzebub
>>386220
Why do you insist on being sheep?
Unnecessary self-degradation based on n nothing concrete.
>>386626
The word of God is more than concrete. God is absolute.
>>386730
>The word of God is more than concrete.
The Quaran?
>>385796
Can we stop these religious debates, and get back to the history we came here for.
>>387533
I came here for the religious debates.
Do Christians actually believe the what they say?
>>385796
>Christians: Why would a benevolent deity condemn someone to eternal suffering simply for being mistaken?
Only Protestantshits believe that with their cancerous "Faith Alone" belief. Catholicism on the other hand sees every good cunt going to heaven.
wait a minute...
how do we know that Jesus wasn't an agent of Satan used to trick mankind into abandoning the Old Covenant?
I'm sure early Christians tackled with the Jews over this, but I'd just like to know the answer
>>387713
You don't.
>>385817
>muh edge
>>385796
OP you go to hell after willingly refusing God. If you just didn't know him you don't go to hell. There's like ten hundred references to Sheol in the Bible which is just an after death place you go to after you die. It is sometimes mistakenly called purgatory. You go there, get another chance to choose God, and then wait until the end of the world. Depending on your choice you go to paradise or hell. Simple.
Iirc, if you are ignorant to Christianity either you never heard of it or are simple, like an animal, then you are forgiven, however if you are able to understand it is your job to tell others
>>385881
Belief isn't a choice. It's a mental inclination.
How do Christianity explain Buddhists/Buddhas?
The Buddhas are stated to be outside the realm of samsara. They are outside of heaven, hell, earth, mortality, time, etc. Would a logical Christian say the Buddhas become God?
>>385817
Well, congratulations! You got yourself /thread.
Now what's the next step in your master plan?
>>387713
that was the point. god saw that people would not stop being tricked into dumb shit so he sent jesus to do the most badass performance that the devil just could not top. if you were impressed and believe, even if you do dumb shit, you do it in jesus' name and are only committing the minor sin of being a dumb motherfucker instead of the false gods thing.
that's how i translated it at least.
>>385796
The Abrahamic God is utterly amoral or a narcissistic dickhead.
>>388829
This picture is retarded, you still go to hell for being a bad person, the priest means that if you don't believe in Christ because you have never heard of him
>>389042
>the priest means that if you don't believe in Christ because you have never heard of him
Obviously. So the priest should not tell him. That way he goes to heaven.
>>387713
This is my new favorite theory
>>385796
People who have never had the chance to be introduced properly to the faith or who honestly tried their best to live a good life but in a mistaken way, they can go to heaven as well.
>>385796
>Being factually mistaken is not a crime. A benevolent deity would not condemn someone for being factually mistaken.
This is true. And you may be pleased to know that:
>If God is real, then good atheists and good Pagans get to go to heaven.
Yes this is indeed the case. God is real, and good people who honestly never saw the truth of the Church but nonetheless tried their best to live a good life and we're not wilfully ignorant if the truth, they can go to heaven.
>>386005
How do you know that?
>The bible says so
top kek
The kingdom of heaven is within you. What do you think about the parable of the good Samaritan? Here was a Samaritan, he was praised more than an Israelite priest because he did the right thing even though he would have been considered as worshipping God in the incorrect way by the Israelites. You see, being a "Christian" is not a religion to follow or a label to adhere to, it is a state of existence, a state of mind and being.
>>392967
There are over a billion Christians that would disagree with you
>>387533
Calling it /hum/ would be more fair since history is just a humanity
>>392866
http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t003.html
>>395782
But /hum/ sounds weird. It sounds like something a redneck would say in a retarded voice.
HURR DURR HUMMM HURR DUMM DUR HUM
>>397900
>But, on the other hand, if the greatest and most influential book of the ages, containing the most beautiful literature and the most perfect moral code ever devised, was written by deceiving fanatics, then what hope is there for ever finding meaning and purpose in this world?
>the most perfect moral code ever devised
MY SIDES ARE IN ORBIT!
>>397900
That page literally says that the bible claiming there are a lot of stars is evidence that the bible is true, and that
>But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
refers to the law of the conservation of matter and energy.
And
>For the life of the flesh is in the blood
is evidence that the bible is real because without God telling them, ancient people couldn't know that blood is needed to keep a body alive. Because in ancient times, war and injury didn't exist and people never bled out.
And
>He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
refers to gravity, somehow. And knowing that gravity exists also requires God telling them.
I can't tell if this is the most pathetic attempt at grasping at straws I have ever encountered or is thinly veiled trolling.
>>385817
What is considered sin does not change. Just because a culture or society can find ways to justify torture and rape does not make them good.
>>392866
how is this an argument?
>>393984
those people self-identify as christian in tradition only, not belief
>>385796
At one point in time all of humanity knew God and God made their presence known to them.
But some people chose to ignore God and did their own thing living how they wanted to live. Their children, and their children's children, etc now suffer for their ancestor's mistakes.
That is why missionary work is vital to the church.
>>398196
>At one point in time all of humanity knew God and God made their presence known to them.
Since when is a handful of Jews at one particular moment in time "all of humanity"?
That's like spending 1 day with 1 of your kids and saying you are a good parent and raised all of them
>>385887
If it is subjective as you say, and morality is an emotional or spiritual creation, and if we can objectively see otherwise using our sensing organs and reasons why do you exclude the fact that language is an organ as well.
