If god is all powerful. why doesn't he make us all happy, rich and healthy?
cause he's a dick
>>377059
Because he doesn't like us.
>>377088
You mean we suffer because god wants life to have replay value? Why would god want people to want to live multiple times?
because we have failed Him
Because being happy, rich, and healthy is not the point of life.
>>377097
we suffer so we can learn something
and we suffer because being physical brings both joy and pain. you and everyone else have to deal with it
why would people want to live if they had all they wanted? to live is to strife
Not only should there be less pointless suffering if there is a God, there should be more benefits from such a God as well. Yet there are none. God is supposed to be your bud, your pal. He is a shepherd, a father, a mother, a friend. Yet he does none of the things such people do. You cannot deny that God would act like a friend and a parent if he really were one. After all, it is only “by their fruits that ye may know them.” You cannot say whether someone is good or evil or indifferent if you never see them doing anything, by which their character can be known. And unless God is tied up and stuck in a box somewhere and unable to chew his way out, he would surely make a regular appearance in our lives, well beyond the vague emotional illusions and contradictory revelations people claim to be from God.
>>377112
>boo hoo my mommy didn't buy me a PS4, she is EVIL! she shouldn't have made me!
>>377126
My mother certainly did a better job than God at loving her children. as a loving parent, I would think it a horrible failure on my part if I didn’t educate my children well, and supervise them kindly, teaching them how to live safe and well and warning them of unknown or unexpected dangers. If they asked me to butt out I would. But if they didn’t, it would be unconscionable to ignore them, to offer them no comfort or protection or advice. Indeed, society would deem me fit for prison if I did. It would be felony criminal neglect. Yet that is God. An absentee mom, who lets kids get kidnapped and murdered or run over by cars, who does nothing to teach them what they need to know, who never sits down like a loving parent to have an honest chat with them, who would let them starve if someone else didn’t intervene. As this is unconscionable, almost any idea of a god that fits the actual evidence of the world is unconscionable
>>377109
I disagree.
If we could choose, everyone would want their parents to be filthy rich so you could live life on easy mode.
That stuff you describe is just what poor people tell themselves desu senpai
>>377059
According to Christian dogma, we suffer because we're born in a fallen world.
Also according to Christian dogma, in heaven you are rich healthy and eternal.
>>377142
>in heaven you are rich healthy and eternal.
>in heaven
I think you mean "in the Kindom of Heaven"
>>377142
What causes humans to sin? Human nature/original sin.
What causes original sin/human nature to tend towards sin? The fall of man.
What caused the fall? Adam and Eve eating from the tree of knowledge.
What caused them to eat from the tree of knowledge? The serpent in the Garden of Eden
What caused the serpent to enable sin? .... God?
Every possible reason you can come up with can be traced back to God. Otherwise he wouldn't be God
>>377059
Because Christianity is wrong.
>>377136
>teaching them how to live safe and well and warning them of unknown or unexpected dangers
it's all taught already. in the Book, have you read it?
>If they asked me to butt out I would
we did. how many atheists say "fuck off with the 'God' thing!" everyday for ages?
>Indeed, AMERICAN PANSY* society would deem me fit for prison if I did
what makes you think that the rest of the world shares that perspective, or God itself?
btw this is a lovely pasta. i wold recommend it to be copied to friends and strangers
>>377137
>If we could choose, everyone would want their parents to be filthy rich so you could live life on easy mode
actually THAT's what poor people tell themselves.. when they're immature
but you won't be able to ask any rich person if he/she is fulfilled and happy because (a) you don't know any (b) if you know any you won't believe the "bullshit" that they suffer because you're jealous of them
>>377142
>according to Christian dogma, in heaven you are rich healthy and eternal
eek. sounds like death
>>377156
The human body influence causes man to sin, the soul is neutral. Also the state the world in which world is forces you to sin... as death is part of this reality we need to produce death sometimes as a necessary evil.
It is believed that demons also influence our bad decisions.
Yes the fall was caused by choosing temptation.
It is believed that Lucifer possessed the wise serpent ( which was a creature capable of speaking like us before God "devolved" it )
What caused the serpent to enable sin? .... God?
Smart question, I could answer but I don't have any point on dogma to hold on or that I remember.. so I'll let someone else to do that.
But considering now because of Jesus man gets higher than Adam ever was, and evolves faster than Adam or his kids would ever evolve there is no negative side of what happened.
>>377165
>it's all taught already. in the Book, have you read it?
Two things. 1) God is not a book, so this doesn't count. 2) That book says the faithful can drink poison and be unaffected, not great advice.
> we did. how many atheists say "fuck off with the 'God' thing!" everyday for ages?
Every religion has preachers, and they all claim to be right and their gods true. These don't count. I'm talking about God directly interacting with me.
>>377185
>God is not a book
nigga you get THE MANUAL in different versions written by different authors so you can even pick your favorite, and you still complain?
>I'm talking about God directly interacting with me
have you ever tried to actually listen to It?
the first thing in order to do that is to shut up, your mouth and mind
>>377214
>nigga you get THE MANUAL in different versions written by different authors so you can even pick your favorite, and you still complain?
Oh, you're one of those guys that think every religion is right?
> have you ever tried to actually listen to It?×the first thing in order to do that is to shut up, your mouth and mind
This brings up an interesting question. What evidence could convert me to some religion, giving a convincing argument a god existed? Charles Dickens’ A Christmas Carol also comes to mind. Here is a perfect example of God doing something good: showing a bad man how his badness is caused by his ignorance, and then enlightening him, so that with this new knowledge he realizes how pointless and wrong being bad was. In a single night the nastiest of fellows is transformed by very real visitations. He is hardly lectured at, nor forced into much, but simply shown the sequence of facts that he needed in order to learn, to understand.
No one would say this was wrong. That the conversion of Mr. Scrooge was an unqualified good for him, for his whole community, for everyone, is undeniable. I dare anyone to come up with some ridiculous, harebrained argument that God shouldn’t have done that. Yet this is only fiction. No ghosts have ever sought to educate any evil man. Nothing of the kind happens in this universe. And that is all but impossible for a universe with a god in it. If such ghosts visited me tonight, and took me around, showing me what’s right and true, I would believe and be saved. Isn’t that what God would want? Since he clearly hasn’t done it, he clearly doesn’t exist.
>>377109
>we suffer so we can learn something
Pretty sure a 5 year old that dies from sickle cell anemia doesn't "learn something" other than immeasurable pain, before ceasing to exist.
>>377236
>>377220
God likes to be more subtle than that, heathen.
>>377220
>you're one of those guys that think every religion is right?
i see your mistake, you equate God with Religion
Religion is just an institution. it's the house rules. play poker or play bridge? depends on that
realizing there is a God is independent from this. every cult will have their own ruleset and method to approach God and make a relationship with It.
what to do then?
"beware of the unleavened bread of the pharisees", that's what everyone should do
take the good from any book, even Mein Kampf, and discard the bad
not saying of course that Mein Kampf is a religious book, just saying that every human being has a realization or a vague idea of what and where God is
>>377236
but you can learn to become a molecular biologist and invent the cure for that. or you can learn to be more generous and donate so actual scientist can reach the cure
God is not the main character of the story, YOU are. you're the Man
>>377059
Without evil there is no good because if everything is good all the time it becomes the norm, and thus goodness becomes meaningless.
>>377109
>we suffer so we can learn something
Couldn't God just have created us already knowing whatever it is he wants us to learn?
>>377272
>couldn't we just learn math without all this homework? i hate doing it
Free Will. If you spend all your money on fedoras, then you are not rich because you are a fedora tipping fag, not because God is ignoring your bank account
God is also fair and doesn't give good things to people who are stubbornly terrible, unless it is to make their bloodline become a mark of shame in history.
>>377252
>every cult will have their own ruleset and method to approach God and make a relationship with It.
Ignoring all the religions with multiple gods or no gods
>>377272
kek.
look man, if you want to be a truly religious person, you can't just pretend there's no suffering in the world, but at the same time, this whole "why doesn't god just snap his fingers and make my dick bigger, that'd make me happier wouldn't it?" is petulant as fuck. but what else do you expect from a bunch of babies addicted to instant gratification
>>377259
well god is omnipotent he could have created a universe where everything is good all the time without it becoming meaningless
>>377277
Yes, that would be fucking amazing. Ever seen The Matrix?
>>377279
>>377286
guilty as charged. every polytheist system just seems to attribute facets of God to different idols. seems an unnecessary complication to me
would you think the song "i'm a bitch, i'm a lover.." is not about the same woman?
>>377299
yeah, have you seen the Matrix Revolutions? when Neo, a scrawny geek, has to fight in the actual real world against other scrawny geek (Bane)? how much did those virtual kungfu lessons helped him then?
[spoiler]Dozer was fit as fuck tho. that was cool[/spoiler]
>>377293
There is one it's heaven.
>>377306
>how much did those virtual kungfu lessons helped him then?
We were talking about math
>>377236
God is a God of the living, not a God of the dead. A kid dying for no good reasons is a trial for the parents first and foremost.
Besides, this is how it goes:
>Judaism: There is a God. He must be our friend since good things happen to us. But he must get mad at us for not doing what he wants since we get kicked out of everywhere. Also he must be the only God in the world, one that can't be touched and that can't be destroyed, because this idol worshipping stuff is weird.
>Christianity: But God must be a God of love since the messiah said so, and what makes a believer any different from a non-believer if they both love their friends and hate their enemies anyway? And since God trascends all, real death must be spiritual, not physical. Don't be an asshole, guys.
>Islam: Well a lot of terrible shit happens anyway so God must be relatively distant after all. Some of the stuff of Judaism and Christianity is fake anyway. God is inclusive but not THAT much.
>>377315
The design of man, and nature generally, is wasteful and messy, inefficient and full of needless vulnerabilities and imperfections, pitfalls and limitations. There is no logical ground, much less any need, for an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent being to create us and this universe as we are. Rather, such a being would have made a universe where there was no need of rape and murder and all other forms of natural suffering among animals, where death and killing was not required for any creature’s survival, where injury could never be permanent or traumatizing, where there is no disease, where human minds were all very intelligent and reliable, and education available to all, and where there were no natural disasters. Even a heartless deity would at least make his creation less messy and chaotic, unless mess and chaos were the very things he wanted. And no matter what, a perfect god by definition could only ever produce perfect worlds—for even the capacity, much less the tendency, to make what is imperfect would itself be an imperfection in the creator. So whether he’s kind or cruel, we can be quite sure that if there is a God, he isn’t perfect
>>377333
>The design of man, and nature generally, is wasteful and messy, inefficient and full of needless vulnerabilities and imperfections, pitfalls and limitations
What the fuck am I reading
Please elaborate
>>377333
it's going to be restored with second coming.
>>377337
The list of needless horrors is endless. Consider the abundance of poisonous and diseased food and water sources, as well as infertile or inhospitable land. No considerate civil engineer would include such things in any city he was building. Indeed, if he did so, he would have to be a villain with a very perverted sense of humor. And if he did so by some accident or limitation, he would hardly be worthy of the title “God.” Just imagine God telling you, as you walk into heaven asking what the hell was up with all that crap, “Oops! I didn’t think of that! Sorry. Couldn’t be helped. Did my best! No. No way to fix it now. My budget ran out!” What sort of God is that?
>>377341
Any God who promises to take us to heaven cannot exist. For if such a God existed, we would already be in heaven. For there would never be any need for this world—nor could anyone say our present world was the best God could make, unless heaven is no better (and if it wasn’t, then heaven would be pointless). We cannot say the present world is a test, for example, since God already knows everything, so he has no need of tests. And he made us, so we can’t be any better than we already are anyway. And if someone wanted to lamely argue that this world exists so we can choose between good or evil even to God’s surprise, we would still have that freedom to turn to evil in heaven, so God would gain nothing by putting us here that he would not automatically and unavoidably have by just putting us in heaven in the first place. So putting us down here serves no purpose at all, even on that ridiculous argument. So if God exists, there cannot be a heaven—or if heaven exists, there is no God who wants us there—unless God is enfeebled, or God didn’t create the universe, or we accept some other astonishing rejection of popular notions.
>>377333
You don't understand that the world was created perfect with man as it's crown ( mini god ).
The fate of creation was in the hands of man, man chooses to experience both imperfection and perfection, good and evil.
Reality manifested according to spiritual level of man, as man was and is the crown of creation.
There's no big fuss, there is welfare salvation and there is the second coming which will restore this universe to its perfection.
>>377088
>children being born with AIDs is akin to an open world steam game
Lmao kys f a m e r i n o
>>377352
This world is nothing, it doesn't matter how many animals die, how many suns die out... everything is made from nothingness and it's doomed to return into it. The thing with humans is that the Creator made our souls from uncreated energy, we're also projected by him since forever and we will stay as a plan inside the Creator forever. Either we want or not we are eternal.
Why is it that these obviously bogus religions still hold so much sway in the face of overwhelming contradictory evidence and logic? The Deists could see all this bunk for what it was and still believe in God, why can't the rest of humanity catch up?
I get believing in God, I really do. There's no way to prove one way or the other as far as we know, and an all powerful being beyond human comprehension creating the universe seems like a totally valid hypothesis in my eyes. But when you start getting into the stories and doctrines of the various religions, you're getting into a whole new realm. Those can be compared to reality, and they pretty much wholly fail the test.
So if they're not really needed for believing in God, and they're laughable upon even the lightest scrutiny, why does generation after generation buy into religion?
>>377373
Don't worry, times are changing
>>377345
>Consider the abundance of poisonous and diseased food and water sources
Dying is a part of life. We can die from practically anything, especially without the robust immune system we've gotten by now. How is it an horror that things die?
>as well as infertile or inhospitable land
Is there any truly inhospitable land on Earth? And I mean inhospitable, not "humans have a hard time living there". I mean Venus inhospitable.
>rest of the post
What
God engineered a balanced world, if anything that's a more surprising and interesting fact than God making a world full of sex, candy and Looney Tunes reruns
>>377373
Religions like Hinduism, Christianity, Islam... still have a lot of followers because A) they don't make ridiculous statements that can be easily disproven by a 6-year old and B) most people are brought up in it and might have a hard time thinking critically or skeptically if their parents indoctrinated them
>>377331
>A kid dying for no good reasons is a trial for the parents first and foremost.
Only a religious person can say something as vapid and retardedly condescending as that.
I hope your kid dies m8, and you'll experience the pain, and we'll see how much you think God helps that pain.
>>377377
>Your parents' actions are your fault, and you should be born into suffering
Ahaaaaaaaa cool my man
>>377059
Its basically a test to see if you are allowed to reach heaven or not at least that is in islam te reason.
>>377386
>they don't make ridiculous statements that can be easily disproven by a 6-year old
>>377373
>strawman
>"overwhelming contradictory evidence and logic"
tipped
>>377390
>a man throws a bottle up to the sky and it falls crashing on your head
why yes, that's how the world actually works
>>377391
Why the hell would God need a test? He would already know the outcome before doing it!
>>377387
I wasn't raised religious, I've lost several people I regret not spending more time with, and I've always held the view that a kid dying isn't as much of a tragedy as an adult dying. A child didn't have the time to affect the life of many more people than their parents (and possible siblings).
But obviously I must think it's nothing and God's there so it's alright, because I have certain cynical views. Okay.
>>377403
>>377400
>posting arguments that are so ignorant of the nature of God according to the Bible that a 5-year old can disprove them
>>377403
>thinking accidental death is at all similar to being brought into the world just to starve and die
>Christians actually argue this from the comfort of their upper middle class homes
Lol
>>377406
Not because people have free while angels and the sort don't.
>>377386
Even from a design perspective, there is no moral justification for disease or predation, for example. In fact, there is no way to deny that it is a truly bad design to create a world with limited resources—not enough food or water or space to satisfy every creature’s needs, much less its happiness, forcing everything to viciously compete, suffer, and have millions of babies that must die so only a few may live—that is, if I wanted to minimize suffering and maximize love and happiness. So, if this universe was made by a god, he must either be really bad at designing universes, or sorely limited in ability, or (even worse) not care about minimizing suffering and maximizing love and happiness. None of these is acceptable to anyone holding to a popular conception of God. And if we retreat into an unpopular conception, we are left with no reason to believe such a being exists in the first place.
>>377426
Angels do have free will they can turn into demons anytime.
>>377373
>why would an ancient culture isolated from the next tribe by hundreds of miles of dark wilderness need to write stories and parables to illustrate divine truths that are not readily accessible to the spiritual layman
>why would an ancient culture that saw God in the lightning flash and the roar of the sea write stories about a world brimming with divinity
>why would an ancient culture want to record the wisdoms of their elders and holy men in one place, say, a sacred book of some kind...
>also, implying Ecclesiastes, the Book of Job, Buddhist sutras, Zen stories, the Tao te Ching, the Bhagavad Gita, the Upanishads, the Tibetan Book of the Dead, Confucian Analects, the Zohar, etc. are "laughable upon even the slightest scrutiny"
you haven't read a single page of anything you're so smugly trying to talk about.
>>377387
i'm the 'Steam' poster and it might seem i'm making fun of grieving's people pain by saying "it's all a game, level up"
truth is, either if you lost your beloved child, or you lost your job or your best friend moved away and you can't contact him/her, you have to deal with that pain and grow stronger or die from sorrow. it's just how it is
in other words LEVEL UP
>>377400
>>377413
retipped
>>377419
>thinking accidental death is at all similar to being brought into the world just to starve and die
there's plenty to eat and plenty of good hearted people to give you that food
there's also plenty of assholes taking the food all for themselves and plenty of whinos like you that think that actions should not have consequences because "suffer is evil"
>>377426
So what are you saying? God can't see the future?
>>377434
He's talking about people today, not ancient cultures.
Learn to read
>>377436
how many possible futures can occur if a person can choose between more than two paths?
imagine knowing all that. imagine being still able to care
then again, how can we say God is merciful if It stopped caring about us?
the answer is: we believe it. having faith and hoping for the best
>>377431
Not everything has a moral purpose.
And humans have free will separated from God. If we collectively fuck up and it affects innocent people, it's not God manipulating events so that this or that would happen, it's entirely on us. If a flood or earthquake happens, or anything that's not the direct cause of intelligent beings' actions, then it's God.
God is not playing The Sims with us. He's just our moderator.
>>377435
>be born in an Ethiopian dustbowl
>some 4chan autist tells you "lol y dont u just get food from other people there's plenty 2 go around"
>He has genuinely never left the suburbs
>>377443
>why would people today need the solace and guidance of religion and spirituality? I mean, we have iPhones for crying out loud! 2015 COME ON
>>377417
Not just that, posting arguments against God existing so stupid that I want to shit on them, even though I'm an atheist.
>>377450
you can adopt that ethiopian, since you care so much
again, YOU are the main character, not God. God is the moderator
>>377462
>Ask why an all powerful being which can literally do anything allows people to be born into pain and suffering
>WHY DON'T YOU DO IT ANON LOL
>>377456
I fucking wish anybody who wanted to try to be smart about any religion would actually bother researching said religion first (that doesn't mean looking up one page or two on Google).
I mean that in good and bad too - people who think they are morally superior for (dis)believing in a religion without even being assed to at least read said religion's holy texts need to stop trying to debate anything.
>>377474
-->>377277
>>377478
>being born with incurable diseases and starving to death is the same as not doing math homework.
Ok
>>377059
Cost of free will, bucky.
God doesn't make the world evil, people do. True, God could make everyone's lives perfect, everyone's personalities perfect and stop anything bad from happening, but then we wouldn't have free will. We'd be no more than automatons.
>>377474
>to be born into pain and suffering
>due to other people's malice and disregard of the socio-economic growth of the country of the to-be-born person
>the to-be-born person is still given a chance at life anyway, to show their kindness for others and have a chance to be in Heaven even with a short and painful life
>meanwhile, nothing prevents others in a better situation to do something about it if they feel so touched by it
Also dying from natural causes before losing one's innocence is actually the excuse for God taking away the life of good people too early in the OT.
>>377434
I'm not talking about why religion formed in ancient cultures, and I'm not scrutinizing every single tenet of every religion as illogical. The moralisms, parables, and other such things are not what I'm talking about.
I mean things like believing the stories of Genesis or Exodus, or the Trinity, the Second Coming or the Rapture. Miracle working and the legitimacy of prophets. That sort of thing. It's the stuff of scam artists, yet when you attach it to God and throw in a clergy suddenly everyone buys into it.
>>377489
Thank you for that, I admittedly don't read much Christian lit. But the answers I was being given were shite.
>>377489
nevermind these other conditions:
- this planet is tilted, meaning some regions receive more sunheat than others
- this causes weather to fluctuate, currents of heatened water and air moving around and allowing cold currents to move into the empty spots
- ice age happens and some valley gets plenty of water for a while
- people move into that fertile valley
- all that ice melts and conditions change, causing that valley to desertify
- nevermind that manmade modifications like agriculture can cause desertification and erosion as well
- when shit stinks or because elsewhere is risky to move to, people remain in that dustbowl
>"hurr durr why God did it"
>>377484
and that's Heaven. that's Death
>>377505
>and that's Heaven. that's Death
Your point being?
>>377513
i abhor it, but main religions praise it
call it Heaven or Nirvana, the lack of pain and the lack of desire, only empty and Peace
that means no entropy, no change. no Life in other words
and it seems ok for most because it will bring an end to their story, a good rest
>>377484
We are automatons if god gave us free will, because it means he can just take it away.
Besides, free will doesn't answer the problem of theodicy.
>>377059
he did but we fell
>>377528
>We are automatons if god gave us free will, because it means he can just take it away.
No, that's not true. We still make our own decisons and actions without God's command, that means we're not automatons. You can challenge the total legitimacy of our free will as much as you want, but with free will we are not automatons.
>Besides, free will doesn't answer the problem of theodicy.
It answers the problem of Moral Evil, but not Natural Evil. I will agree.
>>377505
Dude, the very reason the world is considered beautiful is because every cause has a consequence and everything fits in together.
I'm done arguing, McDonald's is closing in ten minutes and I haven't had lunch.
>>377571
Where do you live that McDonald's closes before dinner?
>>377571
then we agree that everything is as should be and fedoratards are whinos
i see no problem here. enjoy your meal
Screw those other things, how are you so clueless you reason it is possible to make everyone 'rich'?
You could be living in bliss right now bro, just gotta reach those jhanic stages man.
>>377563
>I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. —Isaiah 45:7
At the very best, you could call god amoral, but not "good".
>>377333
>>377293
You need to understand that God is omnipotent within the realm of logical reality. He is the most powerful force in the universe, and so incredibly powerful that from the human perspective he may as well be omnipotent. (e.g. God can't make a square circle) So, no He couldn't make everything good yet meaningless because it wouldn't conform to any sort of logic. (Even if He were to try, the existence of negativity would elevate the meaning of positivity even further)
I know what your trying to do though. You pick apart the language so much that nothing makes sense anymore thus (in your mind) disproving God. If we are playing your game the English word "omnipotent" would have no meaning (i.e. the very concept of infinite power I s a logical fallacy in and of itself) so trying to prove or disprove anything this way is just wordplay and doesn't have any real argumentive merit. So why play?
>>377088
But our entire concept of perfection being boring could be changed by an all-powerful god.
>>377059
Check Gnosticism, brother!
All your questions will be answered.
>>377088
>would you play that game more than once?
>implying reincarnation is supported in Christianity
>>377484
But if there is a god who is all-powerful and all-knowing, there is no reason that god could not create us with free will but without the ability to do evil.
>>378190
>implying implications about reincarnation were made
The point is whether the game would be enjoyable. Don't play stupid
>>378217
>freedom
>inability to do evil
Pick one
>>377059
The men of Zonu hold that Yahn is God, who sits as a usurer behind a heap of little lustrous gems and ever clutches at them with both his arms. Scarce larger than a drop of water are the gleaming jewels that lie under the grasping talons of Yahn, and every jewel is a life. Men tell in Zonu that the earth was empty when Yahn devised his plan, and on it no life stirred. Then Yahn lured to him shadows whose home was beyond the Rim, who knew little of joys and nought of any sorrow, whose place was beyond the Rim before the birth of Time. These Yahn lured to him and showed them his heap of gems; and in the jewels there was light, and green fields glistened in them, and there were glimpses of blue sky and little streams, and very faintly little gardens showed that flowered in orchard lands. And some showed winds in the heaven, and some showed the arch of the sky with a waste plain drawn across it, with grasses bent in the wind and never aught but the plain. But the gems that changed the most had in their centre the ever changing sea. Then the shadows gazed into the Lives and saw the green fields and the sea and earth and the gardens of earth. And Yahn said: "I will loan you each a Life, and you may do your work with it upon the Scheme of Things, and have each a shadow for his servant in green fields and in gardens, only for these things you shall polish these Lives with experience and cut their edges with your griefs, and in the end shall return them again to me."
>>378188
in another Universe maybe. see >>378162
>within the realm of logical reality
not to mention that if God fucked up the Universe on a whim, It would be a very shitty Creator
"babies dying" is not fucking up the Universe at all
if you can't grasp that "everything happens for a purpose", you have to admit that everything do happens for a CAUSE
>>378248
about that, every day our cells are renewed to the point of composing a totally renewed being. every day we die and live again within the hour. it's not as magical as "resurrection" or "reincarnation"
>>378257
If God is literally all powerful, there is no reason that he couldn't give you free will but restrict you from doing or thinking of evil.
>>378267
But the very powers described to that God already means he exists outside of logical reality. How else could he create matter from nothing?
>>378257
Does God have free will? He doesn't do evil. Just make our minds like God
>>378269
free will implies choice. there is no choice when there's only one thing to "choose"
>>378282
But a god who is literally all-powerful could create such logical inconsistencies.
how can we ascribe our objective morality to god?
what then is a gift and what is a punishment in gods eyes?
all that is good is dependant on that which is bad to us. but that which is bad can lead to a greater good. we only see the immediate effects of our live's and yet believe we can ascribe value to each action.
think of seruat's painting. like us, each dot is only aware of the immediate effects of his situation. but draw back from that small dot and we see the grander design.
>>378299
Why should I worship such a god, then?
>>378275
>How could he create matter from nothing?
that's for Science to find out
i personally believe that Science can answer "how" but it will never answer "why". it's better to leave that to Faith or just think "there is no why" (agnosticism)
>>378287
in another Universe
as long as the logical meaning itself changes. 1+1 can equal 12 as long as each "1" represents half a dozen. it would be another Life then
>>378319
because your mom and dad told you to do so
if you don't do things out of Love of your culture, then why else would you do them?
>but my parents are religious
aaah that's why you're an atheist. it's ok then
>>378319
belief is absurd.
embrace it.
>>378338
are not*
oops
i can totally accept czech and other ex-communist atheists. they were raised without God and they don't feel the need to find It or proselitize about it, it's just part of their lives
fedorafaggots are annoying manchildren
>>378347
No. Absurdity holds no comforts. All it holds is disbelief.
>>377059
>why doesn't he make us all happy, rich and healthy?
Why would he?
>omnipotence means disregarding logic
Nottu dissu shitto agen
>>378363
Actually while Czechs are mostly nominally atheist, like 50% of them answered that they believe in "some sort of higher power or spirit" in a poll. Additional 16% answered they believe in God.
Just a question but you people do know that Satan is considered the Prince of the World for the time being, right?
>>377059
>fame or life, Which do you hold more dear?
>life or wealth, To which would you adhere?
>Keep life and lose those other things ;
>Keep them and lose your life:
>which brings sorrow and pain more near?
>Thus we may see,
>Who cleaves to fame
>Rejects what is more great ;
>Who loves large stores
>Gives up the richer state
that's from the tao te ching, you were probably thinking more of the christian god but I think that passage sums it up nicely. Nearly all religions have this same theme of promoting asceticism and reject wealth/materialism, especially Christians who I believe Jesus told to give away all their wealth to help the poor and destitute, Muslims have to give money to the poor as one of the 5 pillars of Islam. I suppose you could say the problem is not god: he told us what we should be doing. its our fault for being bad muslims/christians etc and having enough wealth to feed and heal everyone on the planet and the means to make each other happy by simple love and compassion and yet the world we have created is all about money and putting our own selfish desires and egos before anything else.
The idea is that if you have abundance you will become decadent, selfish, be distracted by your all your material possessions and ultimately live an empty and meaningless life.
If you can't appreciate simple things and don't care about praying, meditating, looking within, dedicating yourself to understanding the nature of reality and god etc then you will never achieve the 'richer state' that Lao Tzu speaks about i.e. enlightenment/heaven/knowledge of self or whatever you want to call it.
I've read all of the posts. How many people came here to actually debate the question? It seems like half the Anons here are regurgitating the same atheist answers, and theists are saying the same theist answers.
We're here to answer a question, so instead of being counterproductive and saying "God isn't real", and not contributing to the answer, we could try an ancient tradition. Empathy. Try and empathize with the other person, and see where they're coming from.
But then again, you could just ignore this and fap to MLP until your mother calls you from her basement to shave your neckbeard and change fedoras.
>>377059
AYY YO WHY DON'T WE JUST PRINT MONEY AND GIVE IT TO THE POOR THANKS OBAMA FOR KEEPING US POOR ON PURPOSE
>>379382
>WHY DON'T WE JUST PRINT MONEY AND GIVE IT TO THE POOR
Because that would mess up our economy based on the way it works right now.
Why?
>>377059
>If god is all powerful. why doesn't he make us all happy, rich and healthy?
Usually wealth and health preclude happiness.
"Oh but if only I had X.."
No, your greed will never be satiated, you need purpose. You think that purpose is having a goal, I want X, when I get X I want Y, when I get Y I want Z...etc... That is no purpose at all.
God being an infinite loving creator wanting your love and wanting you to realize and reciprocate that love is capable of filling that void.
"but its just a delusion, its illogical" Where has logic gotten us? We must ask is it really a delusion, or just irrational? Emotion is irrational, but things of the spirit are intelligible when one accepts them through faith.
There is reason within the beyond. No other religion offers that.
Eastern Relgion is based upon irrationality and rejecting reason, Christianity says "take this small leap of faith, realize your true nature and you will be satisfied" There is reason beyond that step.
The problems that plague us today have been the same for centuries, no amount of Reason (really its non-reason when you become 'enlightened' realizing your nature) can get us to where we want to be.
We can not reach the Truth that faith offers through our Reason. Take Imanuel Kant for example. The man realized Reason gets us nowhere but we NEED what Relgion (Christianity) offers.
Christianity is unique in that it answers such questions where Reason fails, were all others fail.
In the words of Kirkegaard "we all take a leap of faith, might as well be the right one" I'm Paraphrasing of course but essentially that's what he came to.
Reason brings despair, only faith can bring (not a joyful delusion) but true Joy.
>>377136
>My mother certainly did a better job than God at loving her children
Your mothers love stems from God.
If you accept God as real (which to be intellectually honest you must) then you must accept that all things good and bad stem from God, your existence, your pain, your pleasure, your rationale, your reason, your. Humanity. Ultimately came from God.
>>379492
>If you accept God as real (which to be intellectually honest you must)
Thanks for making it obvious you were trolling. Cheers m8
He wants all the good shit for himself while everyone else sucks dicks on Earth or in Hell. Fuck that asshole God.
>>379482
If god is all powerful, why did he make humanity as shitty as it is?
>>379712
humanity made itself shitty though?
isn't that what Genesis is all about
>>377059
Moral concerns for a moral being. If God exists and he is benevolent, there must be a reason.
The more likely reason is that he doesn't. Or that he isn't the way we conceptualise him - aka conscious.
ITT "People" who think pain and violence are scary and unnatural
The problem with these arguments if that if God is all powerful, he could simply remove than downside to any problem
>>379902
Any downside*
A parent does not reward their disobedient child
>>377059
Because that wasn't the plan.
>>377059
Because life is not about being happy, rich and healthy.
God does provide for the faithful, if you believe Jesus (and/or Matthew). Unfortunately, maybe, since you can extrapolate a might makes right message from that, which seems to run against the grain of a lot of other things Jesus said.
This is a stupid thread
>>378279
I want an answer to this
>>380133
Of course god has free will, he is all powerful
>>379989
You can claim life could be about fucking bitches and smoking weed. There's nothing stopping a person from thinking a particular way of life is "correct" other than their subjective selfs.
>>380139
There is no such thing as free-will. Granted, it's not that we don't have any ability to be able to choose our own paths, no. But we are subject to our own way of thinking and bias which every one of us has differently. This ultimate affects we think and the way we perceive the world. As a result, we are bound to certain patterns or choices more than others. It might seem as if we are able to choose our own paths but in a way our brains have already made the decisions for us.
Also, assuming God was real, why would he be bound to our rules and standards in the universe? How would anyone prove otherwise? Why would he need to have "free-will" to begin with? He could live in an universe that doesn't exist and it would somehow still work cause he's God.
It doesn't make any sense.
>>380217
>You can claim life could be about fucking bitches and smoking weed. There's nothing stopping a person from thinking a particular way of life is "correct" other than their subjective selfs.
Well, once God enters the picture, that's not the case anymore.
he does if you are a believer in christ
>>380139
>Of course god has free will
So why doesn't he do evil?
>>377088
I'd give up if the game was intentionally made to be impossible and depressing.
This game has no final purpose. It's not fun. My character never levels up. He was never able to level up. His happiness stat always stays at zero. The only reason he hasn't killed himself is because he fears death.
So now I simply wander about doing nothing in this game.
0/10
>>377109
Why even make us live if there is no fucking purpose? You're telling me that I'm simply the source of entertainment for a good?
>hurr overcome your hardships, you'll feel good
Fuck you. Life is pain. Not joy. Just pain. It giveseems you a taste of joy only to throw a million times more pain up in you. That isaid true hell.
>>380252
the sinful life is a life of pain. god's intention was for us to be containers of him. we have to welcome christ into our hearts so we can be with him and be without pain
>>380240
How does he do evil?
>>380240
Evil is the absence of good, he always does good
>>380277
free will doesn't cause sin
>>380277
Why would he? Humans are weak, and so we sin, god is not
>>380292
I thought we were created after God's image. Does that imply that God is weak as well?
>>380305
Gods image
We look like God, we do not have his power
>>380258
Fuck you. If God didn't want me to sin, he shouldn't have forced me into this hell. I'm being punished prematurely by being given existence. Of course I'm going to sim. I didn't to anything to deserve existence. I will continue to deny god, regardless of whether or not I know he exists or doesn't exist.
Christ can go eat a dick. I'm already in hell. What more can you do.
>>380317
You're only in hell because you choose to be brother
>>380323
I doubt humans have the ability to choose to be born. Isn't that God's doing? Does that imply he sent us to here to suffer to begin with?
>>380325
You do not have to suffer in life, suffering is a choice
>>380310
>We look like God
God confirmed for being a man in the sky
>>380331
Some are strong enough to resist, some are not, just because you fall to sin does not mean that all are that weak
>>380333
Adam was created first, that literally confirms it
>>380305
Disregard that anon. We do not sin because we are weak. We sin though our own fault. Mia cupla, mia culpa, mia maxima culpa.
We exercise our free will to step outside of goodness. God does not. It is that simple.
I don't think you understand economics.
>>380352
>We exercise our free will to step outside of goodness.
Exactly, if we were strong enough to stay within goodness, we would be sinning, any time you commit a sin it it because you were not strong enough to resist the devils temptation, although this is only a temporary weakness
>>380358
Wouldn't be*
>>380330
While yes, some people bring misery upon themselves stupidly it still doesn't account all the other people who chose not to be in misery to begin with. Being born poor and not having enough food to eat, or no clean water to drink was not a choice. I doubt those people really chose to suffer.
Then God surely made those people suffer by accident. Since it's only a choice and not something you can be born into, it's all good!
You can surely say Heaven is theirs and all that crap but is it all really morally justified?
No.
I'm done.
>>380323
I don't choose anything. Free will is a meme.
I am merely the product of the interaction between my genes and the various environmental influences I have been exposed to.
If there is a god, this would be HIS doing. I never asked for this. Existence in itself is hell. It's so cyclical and bleak.
>>380369
First of all you imply God literally watches over every birth and controls every life
Second of all plenty of poor people have been strong enough to rise up and live good life
>>380375
But I am not a cynic, and I do not view life as bleak, this is only you choosing to do such things because you are weak. You are shaped by your interactions, but what you choose do to with the experiences you make is up to you. You can sit around and suffer all you want, or you could do something about it.
>>380380
>choose
I don't choose anything. Wrong.
>>380380
>Second of all plenty of poor people have been strong enough to rise up and live good life
I'm still taking notion with this idea that the point is to not be impoverished. Basically the Lord never says anything about poverty being in itself an evil, but does say a lot about being rich being an evil.
>>380443
You are actively choosing to suffer right now
>>380458
When does he say being rich is evil?
>>380461
WRONG.
There is no choice.
>>380469
I once suffered, I choose to pursue a life of happiness instead. Sinning has clouded your vision.
>>380462
>It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."
>"Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
>"But many who are first will be last; and the last, first."
>"Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.""
>>380472
"Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
This isn't saying anything bad about being rich, its saying that you cannot not buy your way into heaven, that you need to forget your wealth and live a good life
God wants rich people, rich people can give to poor
>>380331
our sinful nature causes us to sin. that is to say, satan causes sin, biblically speaking
>>380479
If God wants rich people, why didn't he come bearing gold?
>>380369
you're imposing your own human morals on god without reading or understanding the message of the bible
>>380469
you choose not to accept christ
>>380487
Because he wants people to learn humility, and all should be achieved through hard work
>>380479
all that matters to god is that people receive the spirit of christ and that they are baptised
>>380502
i'm not talking about faith alone. and we are good when we act in accordance with the spirit
>>380509
If by receiving the spirit you mean acting good and leading a righteous life then I agree with you
>>380521
no i mean literally receiving the spirit. calling the name of the lord, exercising the spirit, declaring to the lord that you are his, etc. a human with his sinful nature doesn't have the power alone to overcome sin. you can say 'i will do this good thing' but you will only be led to temptation and break your promises. but if you draw upon the spirit of christ then his good nature will lead you. only god can overcome sin and grant salvation, not man
>>380495
Your argument is going no where. If he wants us to learn humility, why does he want us to be rich?
>>380531
Man can lead his life without sin without Christ. People who have never heard of Christ or Christianity can be without sin.
>>380537
You can be modest and rich. Keanu reeves lives in a small house and gives most of his money to crew members for example. Cato the Younger and Elder, despite have good a good inheritance both lived modest lives.
>>380543
Perhaps the devil will find you a better host than God
>>380546
>Man can lead his life without sin without Christ. People who have never heard of Christ or Christianity can be without sin.
no, since the nature of man is a sinful one
>>380596
Nature of man is to sin, that does not mean we must sin, its a battle, sometimes we sin and sometimes we don't
>>380546
>Man can lead his life without sin without Christ. People who have never heard of Christ or Christianity can be without sin.
Name one. Name ONE person without sin.
>You can be modest and rich. Keanu reeves lives in a small house and gives most of his money to crew members for example. Cato the Younger and Elder, despite have good a good inheritance both lived modest lives.
That's your understanding of modesty. Directly proportionate to the size of your house?
>>380609
>Name one. Name ONE person without sin.
Sinning is an act
>That's your understanding of modesty. Directly proportionate to the size of your house?
That was just an example to show you that wealthy people are all drug addicts with race cars. Some are modest.
>>380634
>Sinning is an act
And I'm asking you to name someone who hasn't done it.
>>380634
>That was just an example to show you that wealthy people are all drug addicts with race cars. Some are modest.
So your idea of modesty and humility is to have a good deal of money, but to spend it like you don't?
>>380644
>And I'm asking you to name someone who hasn't done it.
I'm not saying people have done it, I don't know every single person on Earth either, kids do stupid sins and don't know it, I'm just saying its possible.
>So your idea of modesty and humility is to have a good deal of money, but to spend it like you don't?
It was just an example, flaunting your money is the opposite of humility, giving away is the right choice, like the example I showed
>>380654
All of us have the capability of being strong. I once hated life, but I have since moved past that.
>>380654
>God should have made us all strong, lest we sin.
The problem is that our strength is what makes us sin. This is the hardest part of grappling with our sin. I sin every day, not out of weakness, but out of strength of will. I masturbate because I open my pants and decide to. I hate people because I can cling to my anger and pride like it's a life preserver in a storm.
Satan doesn't cause sin by introducing an alien temptation. He is what makes us aware of what we are capable of, and through the strength of our will, not the weakness of it, we defy god in that choice.
There's almost something Romantic in that notion. We're all Frankensteins and Ubermensch and Miltonian Satan. Every day, the entire natural order tells us to do something, and we stand in defiance of all wisdom, power and glory and resist.
God made us strong. That is our greatest asset for doing Evil.
>>380652
>It was just an example, flaunting your money is the opposite of humility, giving away is the right choice, like the example I showed
If you give away your wealth, you are by definition, not rich.
>>380677
Not all of it, rich people who keep enough to purchase capital and generate more to give away are better, no?
>>380679
Then you're not giving it away. You're holding on to your wealth and distributing a portion of your income.
>>380690
You are giving some of it away? On your deathbed you can give it all away, giving it all away would leave you poor yourself, and you can no longer give
Why don't we just kill babies so they all go to heaven?
>>377059
That is how he made us but we fucked it up.
>Then why doesn't God fix it?
He did; that is why Jesus died.
>>380700
>Why don't we harvest fruit before it's ripe?
>>380726
Shitty analogy, killing a baby pretty much guarantees it an eternity of happiness
>>380754
Because people are selfish and don't want to go to hell for killing babies.
Better question, why do you keep making these threads to b8 instead of actually searching for answers?
>>380658
>All of us have the capability of being strong
What is the difference between not being capable and never realizing something? Nothing. You're claiming that those that are sin are just people that chose to never be strong. We are not all strong.
>>380675
Pic related
>>377088
So God created the ills as well?
He's surely evil isn't he?
>suffering = evil
>>377214
How is the (5:1128) or (7:12) supposed to be read?
"Book Mathew, Chapter 7, Verse 12?)
"Book Mahabarata Chapter 5 Ver 1517)?
>>384695
>evil
>a source that cause suffering for others
>god is the source
>therefore god is evil
Pretty logical conclusion here.
Because original sin fgt. God gave adam and eve the power of free will, told them not to fuck with that tree, and they did either way. God came to the conclusion that his creation doesn't deserve to be shepherded.
>try to have a historical discussion on /pol/
>too much of an echo chamber, I want to hear legitimate criticism to my opinions and conclusions
>come to /his/
>see this thread
>210 replies omitted
>wow it's like I never left
>>377059
Jesus did through grace you just haven't accepted it yet
Health,wealth and happiness all belong to me for it is written I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me
>>377059
Because our purpose here isn't to be happy, but to live a challenging life, were you overcome difficulties and climb the ladders needed to reach sainthood and abandon this shitty earth. Life is a challenge, not a pasttime.
