why did god harden pharaoh's heart instead of letting the Hebrews be freed outright.
i mean Moses was doing gods work, why complicate it?
please help anon.
>>374148
Becaus he isn't actually real.
Because its a cooler story
Because Moses and Pharoh were bros, and God was jealous of their bromance and tried to drive a wedge between them because God is a jealous bitch. Hell hath no fury like a Jew-God scorned.
tldr; there is no logical explanation in scripture? i get that, its conviction based but why though? because he can? he's just an asshole? bored with infinity?
>>374187
I'm rusty on scripture but IIRC it was moreso the pharaoh committing suicide by not yielding, and he paid for his sins immediately.
Remember death isn't the end in Christianity, and hell only became a hellfire later in the cannon.
>>374148
It makes for better fiction.
And it makes Jews feel good. "We wuz enslaved and had an uprising"
>>374265
WE WUZ SLAVES
Ya makes perfect sense.
>People under God have free will
>But he can make them do things
>>374148
God doesn't force wills and has never forced wills.
>>374304
According to an apologetic website I just googled God did control Pharoe's will. The text OP cited makes it pretty explicit that he did control someone at some point in time.
Besides the idea that God doesn't force will would imply that he doesn't take action. Any action is an attempt to impose one's will on others. God would not be able to perform miracles, judge people, or give any sort of command.
One can control will without force. For instance, I am willing you to respond to this message, if you do than I have succeeded in controlling a part of your will.
>>374304
>make universe
>everything plays out deterministically
He enforced everyone's will
>>374415
The cause of every sin can be traced back to God
>>374292
We have as much free will as an ant
>>374164
Cartoon was so badass, watched along side other fictional cartoons as a kid
If the bible is supposed to be open to different interpretations then why doesn't everyone use their brains for a fucking second and consider the grammar of the verse.
Exodus 9:12 King James Version: And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.
This has two interpretations, one of which seems contradictory to the spirit of religion and ideas of free will, that being that God took direct action and intentionally used his infinite power to cause Pharaoh to change his mind for the sole purpose of screwing everybody over. This isn't entirely implausible but consider the alternative: Pharaoh's supposed to be an asshole right? He's supposed to be a god-king. Every time he feels like acquiescing to Moses, his ego comes back and says to him "who is this other asshole claiming to be an all powerful god?" and he reneges. It's not an action by God that hardens his heart, it's a reaction by Pharaoh to the presumption of God to bother himself in Pharaoh's business. He is the architect of his own misfortune in other words, which fits with all rational discourse on Christian teaching and western mores.
>>377712
>Other fictional cartoons
>*Tip*
But I watched the Prince of Egypt the other week: the animation definately holds up and the whole Plagues part is pretty great, though there were some things that were a bit off, but I was too tired to care that much.
>>374229
But that's just admitting it's a story.
How can one believe in a god that is based in myth and stories. I just don't get it.
>>378446
But it was fiction. There is no evidence that Egyptians had Hebrew slaves, that there was an exodus, or that Moses existed or lead them.
>>374304
But one can choose to go to college, choose to get internships, choose to educate oneself about the job market, choose to expose oneself to things outside their comfort zone, and choose to expose themselves to individuals and decide who is their friend and who isn't.
It will all influence their life. And one can certainly choose to not do these things because they require effort.
These all involve choices one can make based on their judgements. Their judgements are certainly influenced by their upbringing and genetics to a degree, but with so much knowledge available today, you'd have to actively avoid knowledge.
>>374411
So god fucks people. He determines that they're hell bound and gives them no choice. That's just terrible. How could one believe in a god of mercy of he fucks people over so hard.
Apparently he gives criminals no choice.
This is such bullshit. How does anyone believe in this garbage. It's just an attempt to justify existence when it needs no justification. Things can exist without purpose.
>>378519
>Their judgements are certainly influenced by their upbringing and genetics to a degree, but with so much knowledge available today, you'd have to actively avoid knowledge.
Christians actually believe in Libertarian Freewill, basically they think that our actions aren't deterministic. It's complete nonsense, but whatever.
Most philosophers know that compatibilism is true
>>374148
God makes no one do anything. He allows people to do as they please. As to why He allowed it, it is because God wishes for man to come and worship Him and obey His laws of his own volition.
>>380015
>He allows people to do as they please.
Then why did he harden Pharaoh's heart?
>>380131
Maybe the hardening of pharaoh's heart was not an action taken by God, but a reaction by pharaoh to God's presumption to tell him what to do.
>>374148
Better question, why do you keep making these threads to b8 instead of actually searching for answers?
>>380131
The direct hardening of Pharaoh's heart can be seen as God telling Moses what he already knew because of His Omniscience. After all, very early on Moses was told that Pharaoh would not yield. Perhaps the author wanted to make a point in this specific section that what was to happen was God's final Will, and that what was to be done needed to be done for the greater cause of Salvation.
Romans 9 speaks of this issue and more thematically the Book of Job speaks of this. God has allowed and done what He has done all for Just and Good purpose.
Hardening his heart is not meant to be taken literally but rather is a writers tool to express that Moses was shown humility and humbleness by God
>>378545
>It's just an attempt to justify existence when it needs no justification. Things can exist without purpose
Exactly. Religion is just an effort of self-conscious entities, whose minds are built to search for patterns, to construct a purpose, even if there's none
>>382356
>everything is a metaphor
>>374148
Through the exodus, we came to know him better. If more was left out, God would be almost unknown, in a sense. This was a big debate point between the Christians and some philosophers during the first century.
>>378497
Yes there is. We know a group of people came into Israel from the south, and a larger group came from the north. We've found records of a song in that region referring to the parting of an ocean.
>>374148
My understanding is that the more accurate translation is that God did not soften the Pharoah's heart. It was already hard.
>>380015
But why would I want to worship an inactive and non-omniscient creator?
>>374415
>2015
>still believing determinism
God was displaying his power to the Hebrews. He wanted to show he was greater than Pharaoh and the Gods of Egypt. The entire point of Exodus was God proving that he was all powerful and that the Hebrews should be grateful that they are his chosen people, but they kept fucking up and having to make amends.
which version of the bible do i read lads
>>385800
King James 1611
>>385816
This. New translations are politically correct hogwash.
>>385821
There are actually versions where parts got edited to remove contradictions. It's so fucked up
>>385800
NIV
>>388771
Oxford Annotated version is good too
>>385781
All evidence points towards it. Do you not accept causality?
>>383979
Just let him into your heart anon :^)
>>392154
I can't. He hardened it :(
