Hey Christian-anons. Is having premarital sex immoral? I want to sexless until marriage, but I really doubt I'll find someone I can love who'd be willing to wait. Lately I've been having dreams about women trying to seduce me or lead me away from churches, so it's something that's being weighing heavily on my mind.
>>368123
>Hey Christian-anons. Is having premarital sex immoral?
Were you born stupid or is this just a teenage phase?
>religion
>>368123
You have to consider that Christ the man was a person of his times. He taught and his followers taught according to the sexual mores of religious Jews two thousand years ago. Since then, a lot of repressive acts by the church have restricted Christian sexuality (forcing priestly celibacy, contrary to Peter's own example comes to mind).
I'd say from a moral point of view, sexual intercourse is intended by God for reasons of procreation and expressing physical love. You should only do that with someone whom you love completely, and are willing to raise a child with. Generally marriages are more stable environments for nurturing long lasting love and raising children.
I think this is a case in which the authors of scripture and the church fathers were using God's authority to preserve the fabric of society. Broken families and fatherless children due to premarital sex is bad in any age.
Take it for what you will. Catholic here, btw.
>>368149
>Broken families and fatherless children due to premarital sex is bad in any age.
>Take it for what you will. Catholic here, btw.
We can tell because you have no idea what birth control is.
>>368132
Apparently somewhere in the Old Testament there's a piece that says its okay to masturbate if it allows you to stop coveting someone else's wife
i wonder if that also extends to it being okay to masturbate if it means you avoid having premarital sex with anyone, not just someone's wife
>>368123
to my yes
but i'm not a normal christian in many ways
>>368207
God also instructs Moses on how to do abortions on wives that husbands suspect have been cheating on them.
>Then the Lord said to Moses, “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephahc of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.
>“‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a cursed among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”
>>368207
[citation badly needed]
>>368193
The question was its morality, not its convenience. The pill didn't exist in Christ's time, so he didn't comment on it.
Also if you think that people use birth control consistently in the modern age, then you're delusional. If they did there would be no fatherless black children swelling the foodstamp rolls.
>>368202
I'm being constructive and telling you quit shitposting.
>>368225
>The pill didn't exist in Christ's time, so he didn't comment on it.
Yet the church declares its usage a sin, even in Africa where it could be used to prevent the spread of HIV
>>368207
You're going to be hard-pressed to find something explicitly for or against masturbation in the Old Testament (or even the entire Tanakh). However, the Talmud does explicitly forbid extracting semen in vain, and masturbation is considered to be a pretty bad sin by modern orthodox Jews. So take from that what you will.
>>368123
>I want to sexless until marriage, but I really doubt I'll find someone I can love who'd be willing to wait.
Iktfb
I anticipate abstinent girls being extremely lame. I want a lewd, chaste, qt, interesting Catholic girl.
>>368266
The pill preventing HIV?
>>368398
I meant contraceptives in general, namely condoms
>>368398
No babies being born = no babies born with HIV.
>>368149
>You should only do that with someone whom you love completely, and are willing to raise a child with. Generally marriages are more stable environments for nurturing long lasting love and raising children.
You missed the part about levirate marriage, didn't you?
>>368266
>even in Africa where it could be used to prevent the spread of HIV
condoms havent worked in the AIDS pandemic
>>368616
>catholic propaganda
It says fornication is a sin several times in the NT
>>368616
The condoms work perfectly fine. If you use a condom correctly, then the chance of getting AIDS from a carrier is less than 1%. it's just getting people to use them is a pain because they're somewhat less pleasureable to use and cost money.
I used to work at an AIDS clinic. You couldn't even get gay men to take condoms when you were giving them out for free and basically demanding they take them from you.
>>368123
>Lately I've been having dreams about women trying to seduce me or lead me away from churches, so it's something that's being weighing heavily on my mind.
Those are demons. They're trying to steal your seed so they can impregnate virgins with cambions.
>>368123
Yes it is.
>>368123
>10,000 BC
>Humans finally start to settle down and shit
>5000 BC
>Humans live in primitive civilizations with social orders they negotiated among themselves
>2000 BC
>Human can finally live in excess and the previous societal orders get questioned and once again renegotiated.
>400 BC
>Societal order is loose, sex roles experimented with in Greece, societal norms negotiated to allow for this
>1 BC
>Suddenly Jesus is born so now, everything that has been done before is wrong, cause Jesus said so.
> circa 34 AD
>Jesus dies and a bunch of gullible people tell other gullible people that if we refrain from pre marital sex because a no proofs desert guy said so we'll go to heaven
>2015 AD
>your bitch ass still a virgin due to the fact that you believe in a fairy tale that spawned generations and made it so that the societal order was to ensure that you live a meaningless life
>2016 AD
>finally societal orders are being renegotiated and yet you're still holding on to dumb ass desert ideas
Disgusting
>>368123
>starts thread invoking religion
>asks about morality
This is why we need a religion board.
>>368723
Free condoms are fucking painful to wear. Thankfully I'm not 16 anymore and now understand that you need to order condoms of the right size over the internet.
>>368278
>oh no, someone explicitly stated the fact that the biggest minority in the US is prone to single parenthood and poverty!
>I'll tell them to go back to /pol/, that will show them!
Anon, please..... educate yourself. The anon is unfortunately correct. Notice how he did not call them niggers or suggest that they be killed? Grow up, please.
>>368123
douche
>>368266
>The pill
>prevent the spread of HIV
What? The pill does not prevent HIV in any way.
>>368721
By which was generally understood to mean sex outside of marriage.
>>368940
>>2000 BC
>>Human can finally live in excess and the previous societal orders get questioned and once again renegotiated.
>>400 BC
>>Societal order is loose, sex roles experimented with in Greece, societal norms negotiated to allow for this
This part is incorrect.
Please re-write.
>/r/atheism/ strikes: the thread
I guess all the christ-posters are in bed getting some sleep before they go to work.
>>368986
I guess it prevents mothers from giving it to their babies by preventing contraception?
>>369098
>contraception
You mean "conception". And it does not stop the mother getting it.
Actual advice here
Raised Catholic, liked the people in my church so I stuck with it and got confirmed in High School
I was intent on going the distance and being sex-less until marriage but it's simply unrealistic in this day and age. As you get older and and start dating people seriously, it becomes a bigger red flag. Not only that, but if you tell girls that you're a virgin at 20+, they're going to feel very guilty for taking your virginity if it's outside of marriage/long term dating. I'd say stick to having sex with the girls you date for longer periods of time, it's worked out pretty well for me
HISTORY
>>368123
Just make shit up and believe your own brand of Christianity. It's what everyone else does.
>>369112
>mortal sins are okay if they are convenient
Absolutely disgusting
>>369121
Of course they are, that's why killing is justified when it's in self defense :^)
>>369107
Yeah, but it does stop the mother from getting pregnant and then giving it to a kid.
>>369124
Killing isn't a mortal sin, murder is. Try again, heathen
>>369127
So how does it stop the disease carrier giving it to every random person they have sex with?
You really did not think it through.
The contraceptive pill is for.... wait for it... contraception, not HIV/AIDS prevention.
You need to encourage condom use for that, perhaps by improving sizing (for comfort) and "feel".
>>369140
No you dumbass, please understand.
It doesn't stop other people from getting it, but that isn't his point. The point is the LESS people will get it than would get it if babies were being born with HIV than if they weren't being born because of the pill. You would only have fluid-exchange transmission instead of mother-child transmission.
>>369148
You're still getting person-to-person transmission.
Mother to child transmission is far rarer anyway.
You're like the man pouring water over his garage while his house burns.
>>369180
It's not my post, nor my argument. I'm merely explaining to you the other person's post.
It does lessen the spread, it doesn't matter how insignificant you consider it.
>>369180
MRA redpilling aside, in Africa it's not married women who spread HIV, but their husbands who gave it to them by sleeping with prostitutes. Person-to-person transmission isn't an issue for them, unless President Zuma's in the area.
>>368123
Why would actions that have no victim be immoral?
This is really what makes religious morality retarded imo.
>Having pre-marital sex is immoral!
>Meanwhile killing people for working on the Sabbath is ay-okay.
>>369231
Her father is the victim. That's why you have to pay compensation to him.
They didn't have condoms or pills back in the classic and medieval times so they wanted to make sure a child has both a father and a mother to care for the child.
Now more than 2000 yrs later we have all kinds of stuff to keep you from having children and sex is more something you do for fun instead of making kids.
And don't forget that if you have sex now , you have more experience to pleasure your future wife.
Life doesn't live you , you live your own life.
>>368123
Well, I for my part are trying to wait for "The One", too. Gives me the "I waited my whole life just to meet you"-joker. If the girl appreciates that, I know that I probably have found the right girl. After all, I appreciate symbols like that, too.
So, as you can tell, I am following the "No sex before marriage"-thing...but not because god said so, but because I tried to understand, why he said so and realized, that it ain´t such a bad idea. After all, what do you get by loosing your virginity to a random girl? Well, few nice minutes and some social appreciation, fine. It might cement a relationship to that girl, but where is your guarantee, that it works out?
I say, make sure to make that shot count (NOT IN THAT WAY!), but that´s just the opinion on some random dude on the internet. In the end, it is your decision, and if you are not happy with avoiding premarital sex you will fall astray anyway...you will just worsen the time till then. On the other hand, don´t let yourself be pushed into sex, because others say so. To falsly qoute Kant: "Use your own mind!"
And don´t worry about your dreams and fears. Resisting your urges just makes you stronger, and if your dreamgirld already had sex...who cares? If she agrees to wait till marriage with you, it means she acepts who you are and is willing sacrifice having sex, even though she knows how beautiful that is, just for you...or she thinks you are ugly. Up to you, to decide
>>369252
How is he the victim?
How is he harmed in any way?
>>369231
Winrar
>>369186
Board ID's would really help keep track. I knew what their viewpoint was, I tried explaining why it was dumb.
>>369207
And in the west it's mostly gay men who despite all efforts still refuse to use condoms.
However, "prostitutes" is a poor explanation, as many African ethnicities have a tradition of sexual non-exclusivity.
The point being, it is ridiculous to worry about whether the woman will have a child with HIV when she now has HIV herself.
>>368123
Traditionally its important for a woman to stay pure and innocent, as thats her role in the relationship between a man and a woman. She is kept safe and sheltered while the man goes out into the dangerous world. It wasn't so important for a man to be pure, his role was to be tough and hardworking, purity status didn't matter. Purity mattered to the utmost for a woman, because no man would want a woman who's not pure and innocent, so she wouldn't be able to acquire a man to protect and provide for her.
Shits all fucked up now, the status quo is not in accordance with nature and how we evolved. Both men and women are less happy overall. We need to get back to working together as a team with those basic mutual agreements. Men should not be feminine, a feminine man cannot accomplish much of a man's duties. Women should not be masculine, a masculine woman is distracted from her role of raising the next generation. We're going to die off as a result because women want muh independence and men want muh perpetual boyhood.
>>369316
>Christian traditional sensibilities are natural
>>368222
I always lmao when people think this refers to divine abortion.
Basically this was just a method of keeping peace in bronze age societies when dealing with spousal jealousy. Do you really think a dust and water concoction will induce an abortion? No, it was just to put the man's mind at ease through ritual. If the woman miscarried she probably would've died too back then anyway, making the whole practice moot and only of ritual significance
The spiritual meaning of the text is probably more related to the 6th and 9th commandments.
>>369325
>Only Christians do this.
Anon, have I got news for you... the woman being a relatively sheltered virgin upon marriage is actually the most common pre-modern social system.
>>369271
He'll have to pay a higher dowry to get her married off, and the husband can easily divorce her since there's no bloodstained sheet as proof of virginity.
>>369358
This is not 500 BCE m8. This is 2015.
>>369357
Both women and men have had expectations throughout history, this is true, but to think that the way Christians have put expectations on genders is how humans have always been, and is a natural state of humanity, is a fallacy.
>>368123
There is absolutely no verse in the Bible prohibiting premarital sex.
>>369325
I literally said nothing about Kikestianity, these were traditional practices held by just about every civilized human society. What makes a civilized society different from the uncivilized ones: rules, standards, and upholding traditional values.
We're in an age of decadence, the last step before an empire falls back into incivility. Keep up the good work of shilling for hedonism and decadence.
>>369412
>most common pre-modern social system.
>natural state of humanity
Why do you keep trying to tie it to Christianity? Islam, for example, is much, much stricter regarding the woman being a virgin when she marries. Why do you not mention islam instead?
>>368123
There is an extremely low chance of you having sex anytime if you use this method.
Chicks are sloots these days. This type of behavior just isn't rewarded anymore and the majority of women these days want `alphas` i.e. men who have cultivated aggressive and confident tendencies like having sex with tons of chicks that's shows your good with women. Learn game, work out if you don't already. become someone if qualityand substance who has the confidence to attract and approach women. When they show you their interested women definitely want you and want to have sex with you, don't be afraid to make moves. Also
>getting married
Oh shit nigga what the fuck are you doing. I don't know where the he'll you are but in America marriage is one way ticket to get your money and all your shit taken and having to pay some vapid birch of an ex wife for the rest of your life. I only hear it's about equal or worse across the pond. Don't get married. ever. Not even a prenuptial will save your ass m
>>369446
This dichotomization between uncivilized and civilized human society is a retarded fallacy and you know it.
There are plenty of culture that has existed and exists where your style of gender roles does not apply at all, and they are no less "civilized" as a result.
>>369448
Because he's indoctrinated to the narrative, they only preach against things that are European, white, Christian, male, and heterosexual. A Muslim can behead a woman for looking at another man and they should be let into our country and paid welfare, but if a straight white male looks at a woman's tits he should be imprisoned.
>>369412
I'm telling you this as a pagan who dislikes christcücks more than you even should, the roles civilized societies adopt are meant to be and we've evolved over millennia to suit them. Women are not happy when they don't have a strong man to look up to and protect them and their children, just as men are not happy when they don't have a qt3.14 pure feminine submissive waifu. We don't want women to be on our level, that only creates competition in the home. I have to argue with men all day I don't want to come home to another man I have to argue with, and you don't want a man so weak who bows down to the likes of a small woman, because if you make him that way he'll become submissive and less capable of protecting you.
>>369461
>Women are not happy when they don't have a strong man to look up to and protect them and their children, just as men are not happy when they don't have a qt3.14 pure feminine submissive waifu. We don't want women to be on our level, that only creates competition in the home. I have to argue with men all day I don't want to come home to another man I have to argue with, and you don't want a man so weak who bows down to the likes of a small woman, because if you make him that way he'll become submissive and less capable of protecting you.
But that is just your own opinion, and the fact that there are plenty of people in the world today and cultures in history that disagree with you and live perfectly happy lives as a result, doesn't occur to you does it?
>>369470
He is at least partially right, women despise men they see as "weak" (poor, ugly, unfit, not "manly" enough).
>>369470
>my opinion
>traditional roles
>TRADITIONAL
>practically means HISTORICAL
Don't argue with me woman, arguing with men is a masculine trait. No man of any value wants your bitchy ass anyway, uncivilized slut. Enjoy the beta cück you end up with, or worse mate with a nigger to remove your genes from our pool entirely.
>>369485
I agree that they mostly do that yes, but what they consider "weak" changes throughout a society's time.
A woman in the 1950s considered a man who didn't work manual labor, less of a man, meanwhile manual labor practically doesn't exist in a 21st century Western country.
>>369486
>>/pol/
>>369499
>A woman in the 1950s considered a man who didn't work manual labor, less of a man,
[citation needed]
Women generally see wealth and status as "manly" traits, along with muscularity and looks. Men doing manual labour is not a turn-on for most women, not now, nor in the 50's.
>>369511
>He is at least partially right, women despise men they see as "weak" (poor, ugly, unfit, not "manly" enough).
[citation needed]
I can play this game too you know.
>>369506
>someone has conservative opinions I don't like
>they used sexist language on the internet!
>better tell them to go back to /pol/
Anon, this is not /b/, but neither is it reddit. If he chooses to use poor wording, read the message not the words.
>>369516
I don't have to listen to him at all, frankly, and especially not someone who shitposts like he's been on Stormfront the last 15 years.
He can fuck off back to his hugbox where everyone agrees with him.
>>369515
>[citation needed]
Observation of female behavior with MY OWN EYES. Or do you frequent women who are attracted to broke, ugly, unfit, and "unmanly" men?
>I can play this game too you know.
Could not give a crap. Were you around in the 50's? Were you a woman living back then? If not you'd better explain how you came to that conclusion.
>>369515
Are you fucking kidding me? Go outside you naive slut. Women don't like weak men and men don't like girls that try to compete with them for dominance.
>>369526
>Observation of female behavior with MY OWN EYES.
Right, so when I have an opinion that goes counter to yours, I have to supply peer-reviewed citations, but when you supply a claim I'm just going to take it on face-value based on your anecdotal bullshit?
Fuck off nigger. And also kill yourself.
>>369521
>He can fuck off back to his hugbox where everyone agrees with him.
And so can you with that attitude.
>>369521
>I don't have to listen to him
>he should fuck off back to the hugbox
Sounds like you're the one who needs to constantly be in a hug box, whore.
>>369531
>I have to supply peer-reviewed citations
Did I say that? I asked for some proof that you're right. Seriously, why the butthurt? Or are you afraid for some reason to admit that women expect men to live up to their standard of "masculinity"? Or that that standard has certain expectancies regarding wealth/status and appearance?
>>369542
I have never said that women don't have "standards".
What I'm saying is that you think that those standards have always been the same, and that's just not true at all.
>>369551
>wealth/status and appearance
Those have always standards.
What they considered wealth/status and appearance, however varies widely.
Owning 100 cows and having the biggest lip-ring in your village is considered being a rich man in rural Kenya, but not in the US.
Conversely, being /fit/ and having a flashy Mercedes is not considered that impressive in, say, the PNG highlands.
>>369562
Exactly, so while I do agree with you that women like status and wealth, for obvious reasons; certain manifestations of wealth and status might not be attractive depending on where you are in the world, so saying shit like this >>369461, is just patently absurd, because not all women think that a guy who constantly projects his dicky masculinity into everything is attractive, and many men do not consider women who are essentially slave-like subordinates attractive either.
>>368123
Christfag here.
Short answer: it is.
Long answer: there are reasons for why the Church forbids it, and those reasons aren't unsubstantiated.
Not saying they have all the answers, because frankly - they don't. However I agree with it on this part.
Personally, I think that idea is more about *patience* than *delaying*. Virginity is a virtue, but modern world also pushes its own agenda, and no man is perfect.
Wouldn't blame anyone for having premartial sex, and that's dictated by current social situation. I still consider it immoral.
People do immoral things all the time - that's the whole concept of sin. Main idea being *choosing not to do evil, when given a chance*.
The temptation is there, and when it comes to sexuality - it's ever growing. I find it not surprising that less and less people can resist it.
>>369577
>many men do not consider women who are essentially slave-like subordinates attractive either.
Yes, yes we fucking do. There's nothing wrong with it, its naturally ingrained into us. Blame nature.
As for all your other arguments, you seem to have the mental capacity of a 19 year old fresh into college. You'll grow out of this feminism crap and then maybe someone will find you tolerabl, if your vag lips don't look like a beef sandwich by then.
>>369609
Not that guy, but seriously please calm down. You are coming across as excessively hostile and angry.
>>369609
>Yes, yes we fucking do. There's nothing wrong with it, its naturally ingrained into us. Blame nature.
No we don't. Stop trying to generalize your raggedy ass caveman shit to the rest of us, and stop thinking it's natural too, because that's a fucking fallacy.
>>369613
Of course he's hostile. It's what happens when you can't get laid, the only problem is that he thinks the reason he can't get laid is because of women, when it's really just himself and his attitude.
>>369619
Now you're strawmanning also.
>So much for /his/ being for serious debate.
>>369626
Not really a strawman at all. Just look at his collection of posts in this thread.
>>369486
>uncivilized slut, mate with a nigger
>>369528
>go outside your naive slut
>>369609
>general personal attacks
He's obviously an insecure teenager, or worse, an adult man that hasn't grown out of his mommy hate period.
>>369626
>his collection of posts
There are no ID's, how can we check if they are all one person's?
