How many of you think the holocaust happened?
I just did a few days of in depth research into treblinka and have come to the conclusion that the official story is a fabrication and nowhere near 700k people died there. I'd say a few thousand at the absolute MAXIMUM. Wouldn't be surprised AT ALL if I come to the same conclusion regarding auschiwtz, solibor etc.
I just came at it from a historical angle, nothing to do with race hatred or hitler loving. I would reccomend you do some research for yourself. When it first dawned on me that this actually didn't happen it blew my fucking mind. I used o think the stormfags on /pol/ were fucking crazy saying it until I looked into it myself.
What about you guys? Do you believe the official story?
>>362688
>I just did a few days of in depth research
Congratulations. Go write an academic paper, get it peer reviewed by others in the field, get it published, be praised for uncovering the international Jewish conspiracy, and acquire your Nobel Peace Prize.
>>362693
if it makes you feel any better my father is jewish and my mother is half maori
I'm not a stormweenie
>>362688
And what exactly did this research consist of? And what have you based this opinion on?
>>362696
writing on this topic is career suicide
>>362699
Uh huh.
And get it right. It's stormnigger here.
There is no question that people got imprisoned for all kinds of shit, however there are a lot of fishy stuff that can't be verified and is still used as absolute proof.
Many claims are outright impossible and just plain stupid. Do I believe the official story? No, the official story often tends to be very wrong when it comes to most things.
>>362703
If you can prove it, you can prove it.
>>362701
well, I read the book "a year in treblinka"
then I read the nuremburg trial manuscript relevant to treblinka
then I read the destruction of the european jews, where "a year in treblinka" is referenced at least 20 million times
then I read "treblinka: extermination or transit camp?"
and I watched some footage of a guy claiming to be a barber at treblinka
the complete miscarriage of justice carried out at...
I mean what does it even matter me actually typing this shit out? people have already made up their minds.
The purpose of this thread is to find out if other /his/tronics believe it happened. So, did it?
>>362711
not really, in a lot of countries it can land you in jail
>>362712
So go publish ana academic paper already, clearly you have figured out the Jewish conspiracy.
>>362716
>a lot
Here is a list of countries where Holocaust denial is legal:
Afghanistan
Albania
Algeria
Andorra
Angola
Antigua and Barbuda
Argentina
Armenia
Australia
Azerbaijan
Bahamas, The
Bahrain
Bangladesh
Barbados
Belarus
Belize
Benin
Bhutan
Bolivia
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Botswana
Brazil
Brunei
Bulgaria
Burkina Faso
Burundi
Cambodia
Cameroon
Canada (as of R. v. Zundel)
Cape Verde
Cayman Islands
Central African Republic
Chad
Chile
China PR
Colombia
Comoros
Congo, Democratic Republic of the
Congo, Republic of the
Costa Rica
Cote d'Ivoire
Croatia
Cuba
Cyprus
Denmark
Djibouti
Dominica
Dominican Republic
Ecuador
Egypt
El Salvador
Equatorial Guinea
Eritrea
Estonia
Ethiopia
Faroe Islands
Fiji
Finland
Gabon
Gambia, The
Georgia
Ghana
Greece
Grenada
Guatemala
Guinea
Guinea-Bissau
Guyana
Haiti
Holy See (Vatican City)
Honduras
Iceland
India
Indonesia
Iran
Iraq
Ireland
Italy
Jamaica
Japan
Jersey
Jordan
Kazakhstan
Kenya
Kiribati
Korea, Democratic People's Republic of
Korea, Republic of
Kuwait
Kyrgyzstan
Laos
Latvia
Lebanon
Lesotho
Liberia
1/2
Yes, Holocaust happened. Over 6 millions of Poles have lost their lives to german industrial death machine. Some jews died too, i think.
>>362724
Libya
Liechtenstein
Macedonia (FYROM)
Madagascar
Malawi
Malaysia
Maldives
Mali
Malta
Mauritania
Mauritius
Mexico
Micronesia, Federated States of
Moldova
Monaco
Mongolia
Montenegro
Morocco
Mozambique
Myanmar
Namibia
Nauru
Nepal
New Zealand
Nicaragua
Niger
Nigeria
Norway
Oman
Pakistan
Palau
Palestine
Panama
Papua New Guinea
Paraguay
Peru
Philippines
Puerto Rico
Qatar
Rwanda
Saint Kitts and Nevis
Saint Lucia
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
Samoa
San Marino
São Tomé and Príncipe
Saudi Arabia
Senegal
Serbia
Seychelles
Sierra Leone
Singapore
Slovakia
Slovenia
Solomon Islands
Somalia
South Africa
Spain
Sri Lanka
Sudan
Suriname
Swaziland
Sweden
Syria
Taiwan
Tajikistan
Tanzania
Thailand
Timor-Leste
Togo
Tonga
Trinidad and Tobago
Tunisia
Turkey
Turkmenistan
Tuvalu
Uganda
Ukraine
United Arab Emirates
United Kingdom
United States
Uruguay
Uzbekistan
Vanuatu
Venezuela
Vietnam
Western Sahara
Yemen
Zambia
Zimbabwe
>>362707
>eople got imprisoned for all kinds of shit, however there are a lot of fishy stuff that can't be verified and is still used as absolute proof.
yep. treblinka is supposed to contain the ashes of 700,000 (at least) human beings.
And yet, not a single excavation has been carried out since 1946.
Not a single one.
How can you accept the deaths of 700,000 people on literal hearsay evidence? Or a (literal) handful of eyewitness testimony?
That's what treblinka comes down to. Around 6 people claiming they saw it, including one confession exracted under torture.
700,000 people. Based on what 6 people have said. Given less than 20 minutes at Nuremburg. It's absurd.
>>362727
Now here is a list of countries where Holocaust denial is illegal:
Austria
Belgium
Czech Republic
France
Germany
Hungary
Israel
Liechtenstein
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Switzerland
>>362688
Nice doubles
>>362730
So I see in your "few days of research" you missed the Höfle Telegram and the 2010 Staffordshire University's investigation of the grounds.
Good show, clearly you know better than everyone.
>>362730
The Hofle Telegram from 1942 says 713,555 Jews were sent to Treblinka.
As well, there have been plenty of other trials relating to Treblinka.
>>362739
It was said that Holocaust denial can land you in jail, so I am helping out by telling you where you can go so you don;t end up in jail
>>362739
He's saying that the number of countries you can get into trouble for holocaust denial is tiny next to the number that you can't.
OP reminds me of me when I learned about 9/11 conspiracies and thought I was in some super secret club of people who knew The Truth.
Except I was fucking 14 and OP is probably like 40 lmao
>>362743
actually I've seen both
the telegram only mentions arrivals, the uni's investigation was widely condemned and led to a little scandal at the smithsonian
>>362744
>a single telegram stating the arrivals in a train station is all the evidence I need to prove the murder and total decimation of 3/4 of a million people
hey kike why don't we just dig the fucking ground? it would put all this denial shit to rest. except, that's not allowed. and half the fucking thing has been conveniently paved over
>>362753
Why did you read up on Treblinka via the main Nuremberg trials when they were simply supporting evidence? Why not read up on the actual Treblinka trials? You know, the ones with the fuck ton of evidence? Or have you? If so, what evidence are you refuting?
>>362753
>the telegram only mentions arrivals,
And how many people departed from Treblinka, pray tell Master Anon?
>the uni's investigation was widely condemned
[citation needed]
>led to a little scandal at the smithsonian
Which is of course why the Smithsonian did a documentary on it and published said documentary. You can see a bit of it here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVbmDfTv1nc
What do you think the breakdown on holocaust deniers is? I'm thinking it's:
80% People who straight up hate Jews
15% Wehraboos who think the Nazis did nothing wrong
5% Idiots like OP who just think it couldn't have happened because of the scale
Well, to be honest, the single fact discussing the topic freely is forbidden by law in my country makes me think something is just not right.
Otherwise, I don't give a shit, I was born 60 years after it happened, it's just a detail of world war 2.
>>362761
I would rank up the last one to 10 or maybe even 15%, and maybe combine the first two. They're practically the same thing.
>>362753
What do you think happened to these arrivals? They all got food, survived the war, and moved to Israel afterwards?
>>362756
Neither the Jewish religious leaders in Poland nor the authorities allowed archaeological excavations at the camp out of respect for the dead. Approval for a limited archaeological study was issued for the first time in 2010 to a British team from Staffordshire University using non-invasive technology and Lidar remote sensing. The soil resistance was analysed at the site with ground-penetrating radar.[214] Features that appeared to be structural were found, two of which were thought to be the remains of the gas chambers, and the study was allowed to continue.[215]
The archaeological team performing the search discovered three new mass graves. The remains were reinterred out of respect for the victims. At the second dig the findings included yellow tiles stamped with a pierced mullet star resembling a Star of David, and building foundations with a wall. The star was soon identified as the logo of Polish ceramics factory manufacturing floor tiles, founded by Jan Dziewulski and brothers Józef and Władysław Lange (Dziewulski i Lange - DL since 1886), nationalised and renamed under communism after the war.[216][217] As explained by forensic archaeologist Caroline Sturdy Colls, the new evidence was important because the second gas chambers built at Treblinka were housed in the only brick building in the camp; this provides the first physical evidence for their existence. In his memoir describing his stay in the camp, survivor Jankiel Wiernik says that the floor in the gas chambers (which he helped build) was made of similar tiles.[218] The discoveries became a subject of the 2014 documentary by the Smithsonian Channel.[219] More forensic work has been planned.[220]
All I know is 20 of my relatives died in it. No matter the numbers, it existed and was horrible.
>>362756
They have. They've even used lidar.
http://m.livescience.com/44443-treblinka-archaeological-excavation.html
Now fuck off back to /pol/.
>>362761
I don't think you can really separate groups #1 and #2 that cleanly; people who think the Nazis did nothing wrong also tend to straight up hate Jews.
And OP is definitely in that category despite his protests to the contrary.
>>362761
Hitler killed maybe like 6 jews total. I mean 6 murders is a lot of blood on your hands. I don't see how you could kill more than 6 people and get away with it.
>board full of people that hate when people listen to emotions instead of muh logic reason and statistics completely ignore logic reason and statistics when they conflict with their feelings
God bless you /pol/
>>362761
Honestly the people who accept the narrative blindly annoy me the most, simply because they ignore the simple thing that is war propaganda. They also ignore the fact that Jews, and any other ethnic group with similar stories, will milk it as much as they can.
But then you also have the retards who think like "the numbers are dubious, and this particular story is dubious, therefore it never happened ever at all".
>>362780
Literally everyone I have seen contradict the OP has given him either a citation or logic.
>>362789
I'm pretty sure he's mocking /pol/'s insistence that they stand for "logic and reason" despite being plenty illogical and unreasonable when it comes to their own sacred cows.
>>362789
He's calling the OP /pol/, I think.
>>362780
doublethink?
>>362753
The universities excavation wasn't condemned; the Smithsonian channels spin on it was. That still doesn't refute lidar findings. Holohoax fags cling to the aforementioned strawman to try to refute the entire site visit.
>>362761
op here
I think it could have happened it's just not supported by the evidence.
the germans in all their efficiency, used diesel exhaust from a capture soviet tank? to kill 700k people? and then cremated them on railway tracks?
>>362766
>What do you think happened to these arrivals?
there's quite a few jews who were transferred through Treblinka who did interviews etc. I believe that they were transferred into the eastern territories and emigrated to israel/america/etc shortly after ww2
>>362835
>it's just not supported by the evidence.
You have literally just ignored what everyone said in this thread to further your own agenda and justify your antisemitism. If you won't listen then leave/
>>362842
>quite a few
Like 6, or 700k?
>>362767
except the numbers do matter
it's like saying 700k people died on 9/11 lalalla I don't care if it was only 1k PEOPLE STILL DIED
I don't care about your appeal to emotion I just want the truth, and I think you should as well
>>362789
op here
actually at they most they've referred to the same study done in 2010
>>362767
FYI most racists don't consider the people who died in the Holocaust to be humans. Don't use an appeal to emotion with those neanderthals.
>>362835
>the germans in all their efficiency,
Ok, now I know you havne't done any research.
WW2 Germany wasn't efficient, it was an absurd conglomeration of duplicated effort and bureaucratic mess. They fucking had 2 "high commands", OKH and OKW. They weren't efficient at all.
>>362739
how many of the countries that consider Holocaust denial illegal surround Germany ? Which are obvious proxies with the USA?
>>362835
Oh just fuck off. There have been two well documented site surveys. If the one connected to the Smithsonian Channel is 2jewy4me then go read Colls first survey.
She, kind of like you, wanted more proof.
>>362843
have you watched the 2010 documentary?
they 'find' a tile in a staged scene, claim it's a star of david from the gas chambers and rebury it. they find less bones than there are in a human body on a known christain grave site and call it a mass grave. they then find scattered cremains on the surface WHERE JEWS ARE KNOWN TO, AND HAVE VIDEO EVIDENCE DOCUMENtING JEWS ILLEGALLY DUMPING CREMAINS On tHe memorIAL AND CLAIM THESE ArE THE TREBLINKA VICTIMS
>>362842
Israel's total population by 1960 was slightly over 2 million. About 2/5ths of them were Jewish Arabs or Muslim Arabs, and the other 1.2 million were Europeans and Americans. You are telling me that the majority of Ashkenazi Jews in Israel by 1960 passed through Treblinka?
>>362875
look you idiot I've read those studies in depth and watched the documetary
look at this
>http://newobserveronline.com/smithsonian-red-faced-after-treblinka-star-of-david-tiles-shown-to-be-not-jewish-at-all/
from the documetary those tiles were claimed to be from inside the gas chambers showing jewish symbols. that's the quality of this 'study'
she wasn't even allowed to dig at the known 'mass graves'
>>362866
Many people claim it is Jewish influence which gets Holocaust denial outlawed. However, it is not illegal in places with lots of Jews (Such as Russia, the USA, UK, Canada, etc) but is illegal in places with very few Jews such as Poland (Also, why are there so few Jews there?)
>>362890
>You are telling me that the majority of Ashkenazi Jews in Israel by 1960 passed through Treblinka?
this number you have is based on an encrypted telegram found in the 2000's which has typos
this is the basis for the murder of 3/4 of a million people
one, it could be faked
two, it could have wrong information - which is not a wild theory seeing as though there are mistakes WITHIN the telegam itself (telegram says 70k people went through there)
three, BUT WHERE DID THEY GO, does not prove the death of 3/4 of a million people
jesus you're all so fucking brainwashed
>>362898
>jesus you're all so fucking brainwashed
>thinks the holocaust didn't happen after some light reading
M'k.
>>362891
How does the Smithsonian's spin refute lidar findings? Or the lidar findings of Colls survey prior?
Strawman, idiot, is the logical fallacy you're using. Also your English sucks.
>>362898
Holy shit! Typos on official documents! Stop the presses!
You're telling me the Nazis weren't infallible to human error when drafting reports? My God, you're going to be a millionaire with this revelation! Quick, get off of /his/ and contact every major news outlet!
>>362898
>this number you have is based on an encrypted telegram found in the 2000's which has typos
When you add the numbers together with an extra 5 it makes perfect sense.
>this is the basis for the murder of 3/4 of a million people
It is about the same number as many previous estimates so it is highly reasonable.
>one, it could be faked
This is the epitome of Holocaust denial. All evidence points to it being false and any evidence to the contrary is fake. That is why you guys are not called revisionists, you are called deniers, because you do not revise history, you deny it, and deny all evidence, even if it overwhelming.
>two, it could have wrong information - which is not a wild theory seeing as though there are mistakes WITHIN the telegam itself (telegram says 70k people went through there)
The number is perfectly in line with previous estimates and the typo adds up when it is adjusted with an extra 5. Tapping the 5 twice instead of 3 times unknowingly could be a harder mistake to catch.
>three, BUT WHERE DID THEY GO, does not prove the death of 3/4 of a million people
Tell me, suddenly, 6 million Jews in Europe are no longer there. The global population of Jews suddenly immensely decreases over the course of 6 years. This is a completely unnatural demographic catastrophe. Can you provide any other reasonable explanation for this?
>>362699
Are you this guy?
>>362916
Don't forget that the document we have isn't the original, it's a British transcription and translation of an enigma decoding, scribbled down and thought unimportant at the time.
It was probably just some clerk scribbling stuff down as fast as he could while his superior yelled at him to write faster.
>>362906
what lidar findings?
you mean the lidar done south of treblinka 1? in a known christain gravesite?
show me the lidar findings at treblinka 11 showing mass graves?
>>362928
>Don't forget that the document we have isn't the original, it's a British transcription and translation of an enigma decoding, scribbled down and thought unimportant at the time.
We have both the original and the translation
>It was probably just some clerk scribbling stuff down as fast as he could while his superior yelled at him to write faster.
>"Rudolf! What are you doing?"
>Nothing, just doodling about the deportation of hundreds of thousands of people"
How did this not sound absolutely retarded in your head?
>>362938
>We have both the original and the translation
We have the original transcription, not the original German documentation (if any). It was found in Kew, England, not in Germany, in what was an old war office.
>How did this not sound absolutely retarded in your head?
You haven't read it, have you?
Re: 14-day report Operation REINHARD. Reference: radiogram from there.
Recorded arrivals until 31 December 42, L 12761, B 0, S 515, T 10335 totaling
23611. Situation [ ... ] 31 December 42, L 24733, B 434508, S 101370,
T 71355, totaling 1274166.
SS and police leader of Lublin, HOEFLE, Sturmbannführer.
It was low level SS traffic, and unless you know what "L" "B" "S" and "T" stand for, it's just some weird jargon, doesn't look important.
>>362932
Her peer reviewed paper is online. Google, faggot.
>>362896
Most fled the germans and then the russians. Or died.
Jesus fucknugget shitsparkles, people on both sides of this irritate me.
Doing research on Treblinka does not mean the 'Holocaust' either did or did not happen. The Holocaust was a wide ranging event covering much of Eastern Europe. People were allegedly murdered in a number of different ways. Stop picking on one particular thing and saying that disproves the Holocaust.
>>362767
That you had relatives that died in the time has no relation to the matter at hand.
>>362766
Many were transferred to other camps, some died of disease or malnutrition, some were executed.
The lidar findings are easily disputed, and certainly no physical evidence of what had been previously claimed.
>>362768
How about you fuck off back to >>>/b/ or /soc/?
>>362830
The excavation showed no evidence of previous claims.
>>362906
Mass graves are present at every single site in Eastern Europe in WWII where large amounts of people were present, especially when they were incarcerated. Every. Single. One. The lidar findings confirmed mass graves, not gas chambers or murder factories.
op here
this is the treblinka 2 lidar you guys are referring to
>>362932
http://maneypublishing.com/index.php/journals/jca/
Read.
>>362957
>Jesus fucknugget shitsparkles, people on both sides of this irritate me.
thats why i have stoped discussing this pointless topic
i suggest you do the same anon
ITT people are retarded
Why would Hoess testify that he found Treblinka's execution methods to be inefficient to his own?
>>362974
the thing is, even if it's not circumstantial, which nobody is saying they are, quite likely they are the structures of the original treblinka 2 camp
it still proves nothing
YOU are basing the murder of over 700 thousand people, on the presence of a few rocks found in the ground
why is standard of evidence for the holocaust SO MUCH LOWER than for anything else?
>>362951
And where do you think it is from? Why do you think it was made? It wasn't just invented, it existed for a reason.
History isn't based necessarily on "smoking gun" evidence, it is based on conclusions drawn from numerous different facts which point to the same conclusion. Those letters all happen to stand for concentration camps previously known to be places where Jews were deported to and murdered, and the numbers are astonishingly similar to what has been estimated.
As well, the typo is irrelevant because it has been concluded that the person who made the transcript didn't realize the importance of it.
>>362954
They fled the Germans or Russians and disappeared forever without a trace?
Jews died yes. But auschwitz was an industrial work zone. and was one of the largest. In order for Nazis to be defeated it had to be...bombed. It had forced laborers, many were jews. It was taken over by the Russians. Met some people who were in charge of setting the displays. It was a russian prison for quite a while as im told. Most of it was built using russian laborers from the gulags. I remember getting a little book explaining the symbolism behind every display. Some people say it was the best stasi/kgb cover up to date.
>>362984
ask yourself, why would germany use multiple execution methods? for what was basically their most important task?
it was left up to a captured soviet tank? using diesel? which produces far less CO than fucking wood gas generators which were ubiquitous throughout the war landscape?
you're telling me, germany with all it's chemistry nobel prizes didn't know diesel is an incredibly inefficient way to produce co?
>>362922
>When you add an extra 5
This is the epitome of reality denial. All evidence, despite most of that evidence consisting of contradictory first person testimony and confessions obtained through torture, is real and any evidence to the contrary is anti-semitism. That is why you guys are not called historians, you're called faggots, because you do not research history, you repeat it, and deny all evidence, even if it is overwhelming.
>Tell me, suddenly, 6 million Jews in Europe are no longer there.
No, because they were never there. If you think census data in pre-war Eastern Europe is an exact science you need to do some reading.
>The global population of Jews suddenly immensely decreases over the course of 6 years.
As did the Russian, German, Polish populations. There was this war thing going on, as you may recall. Generally known to be completely unnatural demographic catastrophes.
>>362996
>And where do you think it is from? Why do you think it was made? It wasn't just invented, it existed for a reason.
Did you read my post? I'm arguing with this idiot.>>362938 who thinks it's
A) a copy of whatever original German documentation existed
B) that the existence of typos is ridiculous because it's "obviously important".
Which it is not. I specifically said that unless you know what those initials stand for, and you know what those camps are for, it's just some bit of scribble, unimportant, and likely only half-paid attention to.
>>362957
>people on both sides of this irritate me
You are trying to give equal weighting to both sides of an issue where only one side has any serious scholarship, evidence, or validity to it.
The problem with holocaust denial is that there is no validity to it. None. It does not deserved to be given any sort of weighting at all.
Sure, I think it happened, however I'm not convinced 6 gorillion died, and I'm convinced it was less lampshades, gas chambers and jew soap, and more just labor/executions
>>362999
also, the aushschwitz gas chambers are reconstructions, admitted by the staff
basically they say they were gas chambers, then it was an air raid shelter, and then it was reconstructed to look like how they think the gas chamber looked
>>362974
>PURELY circumstantial
Quote some of those testimonies. This will be good.
>This board is disagreeing with me so it's going to shit
No. The initial /pol/ rush wore off, and now this is going to be discussed. Either find some evidence that isn't contradictory or easily refutable or hide the threads.
>>363005
>where only one side has any serious scholarship, evidence, or validity to it.
according to who? you?
>None. It does not deserved to be given any sort of weighting at all.
and why is that? why does the historical process function entirely differently with different standards of evidence with things that absolutely cannot be stated or entertained when it comes to this one atrocity?
op here
this is one your eyewitness testimonies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXweT1BgQMk
and don't think I'm cherrypicking
this guy is featured as first on the israeli holocaust museum site
>>363005
No, I actually give your side a lot less weight, because you've never spent one minute of time looking at this skeptically or critically, and you think if you will a swastika is going to sprout on your chest and that cute girl with the dreads you like isn't going to date you. It's called confirmation bias.
The trouble with my side is that most of them are stupid.
>>363002
>All evidence, despite most of that evidence consisting of contradictory first person testimony
And you know, the documentation, the massive dropping of the Jewish population, the stated goals of the Nazi party to eliminate the Jewish population of Europe. But sure, it's "only" eyewitness testimony.
>confessions obtained through torture,
[citation needed]
>No, because they were never there. If you think census data in pre-war Eastern Europe is an exact science you need to do some reading.
Exactly why do you think say, the 1931 Polish census is inaccurate.
>As did the Russian, German, Polish populations. There was this war thing going on, as you may recall. Generally known to be completely unnatural demographic catastrophes.
Did 90% of the Polish population die? It seems rather odd to contrast that level of loss of Polish Jews and things like Hans Frank's journal, where he talks about how they need to get rid of the Jews and were going to deny them foodstuffs.
>>363024
and yes, this guy is claiming 16 barbers 16 benches a few guards and 700 people were within a room the size of medium bedroom
and yes, he is claiming they cut their hair in the gas chamber to use as matresses
>>363002
>This is the epitome of reality denial. All evidence, despite most of that evidence consisting of contradictory first person testimony and confessions obtained through torture, is real and any evidence to the contrary is anti-semitism. That is why you guys are not called historians, you're called faggots, because you do not research history, you repeat it, and deny all evidence, even if it is overwhelming.
Funny because every single legitimate historian on the Holocaust has come to the conclusion that it is true and accept the Hofle Telegram as evidence, while deniers are not given any credibility whatsoever.
You are literally arguing that because there was a typo in a number that adds up when you add another 5 after two consecutive 5's, it has to be a lie.
>No, because they were never there. If you think census data in pre-war Eastern Europe is an exact science you need to do some reading.
[citations needed]
>As did the Russian, German, Polish populations. There was this war thing going on, as you may recall. Generally known to be completely unnatural demographic catastrophes.
The country with the largest death toll as a percentage of the population was Poland with 17% maximum. For Jews, the death toll was about 33% of the global Jewish population, and 66% of European Jews.
>>363004
It can easily be derived from estimations and logic. All those 4 letters are the first letters of concentration camps that have the generally accepted death toll of each next to them.
>>363026
op here
why am I stupid?
>>363028
>[citation needed]
oh comon dude you're clearly over your head here. if you don't know anything about the nurmenburg trials you shouldn't be in this thread
>>363033
>every single legitimate historian on the Holocaust has come to the conclusion that it is true and accept the Hofle Telegram as evidence,
could that have anything to do with holocaust denial landing these historians in jail? could it have anything to do with a single revisionist being allowed an equal platform to present their finding? could it have anything to do with even pretending to entertain holocaust revisionism is grounds for physical attack, career suicide, and discrimination?
>>363012
It as rebuilt because the original was destroyed.
>>363023
It doesn't. The difference is, there is overwhelming evidence for the Holocaust to the point where it is completely undeniable. It is like if someone denied the Spanish Civil War, they would be laughed at and given no credibility whatsoever, because they don't deserve any.
>>363026
It doesn't deserve to be looked at in such a way because now actual evidence besides denial of facts has been provided by anyone ever.
If someone said to you that the Spanish Civil War never happened, there is no reason to look at their argument critically either, because it is literally retarded.
>The trouble with my side is that most of them are stupid.
Correct, and you are too.
>>363033
>It can easily be derived from estimations and logic. All those 4 letters are the first letters of concentration camps that have the generally accepted death toll of each next to them.
And you're a guy sitting in an office in 1942. You decrypt Enigma transmissions for the war. You probably don't even know there is a holocaust going on, and if you do, it's another jump to get that these are 4 camps instrumental in it and that the numbers being referred to are arrivals of people to be executed and not something else. You certainly wouldn't be looking for it to corroborate with any post-war estimations about the death totals in said camps, because you know, that hasn't been developed yet.
Your first priority is of course, to look for military transmissions. It's not to or from any frontline army units, so it's probably not one of those.
It's not high on your priority list, so you don't give it that much attention. You make a careless error in writing it down, and you probably forget about it by the next day.
>>363038
I don't see a citation there. Tell me, have you ever read Hans Frank's journals? Show me some evidence he was tortured into writing or at least affirming them; they alone provide pretty damning evidence if you accept their reality.
>>363034
Because you think looking at a few things, deciding they are not true, and declaring the Holocaust false despite survivors still living today and overwhelming evidence by a huge amount of peer-reviewed historians.
>>363041
You can't go to prison for Holocaust denial in the vast majority of countries.
They are not revisionists, they are denialists. They do not deserve an equal weighting because they are retarded. If someone claimed that World War II never happened they wouldn't be given an equal weighting either because that is also retarded. All Holocaust denial is thinly-veiled and often not veiled at all antisemitism.
Google the "balance fallacy", which assumes that all sides of an issue should be given equal weighting, even if one side is so incorrect that there is not a single legitimate argument that could possibly be used to justify their position.
>>363034
Because you said 'How many you think the Holocaust happened?', then proceeded to say you'd read about Treblinka for a couple days, and generally make an ignorant ass of yourself throughout the thread.
Discussing Treblinka is perfectly valid, even being skeptical about it, but being skeptical about what occurred at one camp does not mean a wide ranging event didn't happen.
>>363028
>[citation needed]
Both the British and the Russians have admitted to torturing Rudolf Hoess and a number of other SS higher ups.
>1931 Polish census
The fact that there are several others from the time period that vary by millions. Ethnicity was not cut and dried in Eastern Europe in the 30s
>need to get rid of the Jews and were going to deny them foodstuffs
And there it is, in a nutshell. The massive Jewish death rate during the period can be attributed to them being a hated minority in a time where life was very dear. It's not attributed to a German plot to exterminate them through gas. What you call the Holocaust and what you consider denying it can get you placed on different sides of this issue rather quickly.
>>363071
>Both the British and the Russians have admitted to torturing Rudolf Hoess and a number of other SS higher ups.
For information, not to produce confessions.
>The fact that there are several others from the time period that vary by millions. Ethnicity was not cut and dried in Eastern Europe in the 30s
[citation needed]
>And there it is, in a nutshell. The massive Jewish death rate during the period can be attributed to them being a hated minority in a time where life was very dear. It's not attributed to a German plot to exterminate them through gas.
Actually, if you had bothered to read Mr Frank's stuff, you'd know that the denial of foodstuffs was in his estimation, the fastest way to eliminate the population; it wasn't a cost saving measure, or turning a blind eye to mob violence, it was just the simplest, most practical way of eliminating the Jews.
>>363065
>survivors are still living today
Oh boy
>overwhelming evidence
There is absolutely no 'overwhelming evidence' that
1. There was a National Socialist plot to exterminate European Jewry with gas
2. Massive executions using gas were committed.
>>363001
Execution methods varied because there was no standard prior. In other words, they were refining their techniques as the days moved on.
As for the carbon monoxide sourcing, I don't see how there could be more efficient methods considering THERE WERE FUCKING INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINES EVERYWHERE.
>>363082
Yes, and yet they continued to be fed in the camps until right before the end, so clearly no one took Mr. Franks occasional rantings that seriously, or they would be no such thing as a 'Holocaust survivor'.
>>363088
>Oh boy
What a brilliant, extremely educated refutation. May as well get this one published.
>There is absolutely no 'overwhelming evidence' that...
1. Gas wasn't the only method, nor was it the mots used (as far as I know)
2. There is plenty of evidence, you just don't look for it. http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/skeptic-magazine/skeptic-12.html
>>363093
Execution by exhaust of internal combustion engine was tried but found to be far too inefficient. There is numerous documentation to this effect.
>>362703
>Help, I'm being oppressed!
>I must post my theories on a Babylonian board game bulletin board lest I be shunned for publishing these hidden truths, even though I have no actual education in history
>It's not like academics are tired of refuting the same shit over and over again
Literally creationist-tier.
>>363047
>It doesn't deserve to be looked at in such a way because now actual evidence besides denial of facts has been provided by anyone ever.
list the evidence for the 700k murders which occured at treblinka 2
off the top of my head it comes down it
>4-5 eyewitnesses
>1 confession extracted under torture
>1 flawed archaelogy dig
>1 book called a year in treblinka
>one other trial
anything else?
>>363116
You're using the existence of survivors as somehow being proof of industrial genocide. Does that not somehow seem illogical to you?
>Gas wasn't the mots used
What was the mots used then?
>nizkor
Nizkor refuted the Leuchter Report, and did a fine job. Basically that the lack of Prussian Blue formation did not necessarily mean that cyanide had not been present in the ruins (although it could be). That is not evidence, nor is it 'overwhelming'.
>>363057
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v07/v07p389_Faurisson.html
>>363093
> don't see how there could be more efficient methods considering
like I said, they used a captured soviet tank (where they got the spare parts?), and woodgas stoves were everywhere
>>363134
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Historical_Review
op here
ok, what about this
700k people were cremated
where did they get the wood?
>>363134
>ihr
>>362688
I do think a genocide did happen.
But gas-chambers are obviously an absolute fabrication.
>>363128
>4-5 eyewitnesses
More than 4-5, and why do you dismiss eyewitnesses?
>1 confession extracted under torture
You haven't proven the confession was extracted under torture, you only proved that he was at one point tortured.
>1 flawed archaelogy dig
Which is accepted by historians as valid otherwise
>1 book called a year in treblinka
There have been numerous books on the topic
>one other trial
An entire trial dedicated to a mass murder is completely valid, and saying otherwise is retarded.
>>363133
>What was the mots used then?
Firing squads, forced labour, mass executions, etc.
>Nizkor refuted the Leuchter Report, and did a fine job. Basically that the lack of Prussian Blue formation did not necessarily mean that cyanide had not been present in the ruins (although it could be). That is not evidence, nor is it 'overwhelming'.
This has absolutely nothing to do with the content of what was in the site I posted.
>>363157
>wikipedia
>>363167
Cool, go publish your peer-reviewed conclusion.
>>363169
> and why do you dismiss eyewitnesses?
this is one of them https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXweT1BgQMk
>>363185
So?
>>363177
>IHR
>>362724
What if you live in Germany or Austria where it is illegal?
>>363169
>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/skeptic-magazine/skeptic-12.html
Yeah, that's because the article you posted is hilariously bad, but the Nizkor project has done some good work, so I thought I would mention that rather than the laughably bad article you linked.
>Firing squads, forced labour, mass executions
So wait, we're now saying there weren't mass gassings? Because the article you linked is saying there were....peculiar.....
>>363205
Publish anonymously.
>>362748
Dishonest argumentation. Make a list of western nations instead.
>>363169
Hold up, not a holocaust denier here, but are you asserting the nuremberg trials as proper and valid?
>>363047
>the original was destroyed
Proof?
>>362843
having a discussion about how many people died in Treblinka and questioning the evidence is not hateful towards the many semitic cultures
>>362843
How is it anti-Semitic desu.
Muslims are more semetic than yurope jews.
Just a buzzword Desu sempai, why do jews deserve to be a protected class with a special word that they can shout whenever anyone criticizes them.
>>362965
No
>>363241
Brazil, Mexico, Japan arnt western.
Cyprus is tiny
And nobody lives in Iceland.
So what; 8 nations out of the entirety of western civilization.
Not saying the holocaust should be denied, or that it didn't happen. Just you shouldn't honest in such a disargued manner.
*tip*
>>363255
>thinks Eurostan is Western
top kek
>>362761
>He doesn't believes something happened specifically the way it's being told
>He must hate jews the antisemite bastard!!
This is why nobody like you and also because you smell like shit
>>363205
Do >>363209 or cross the border to Belgium where it is legal. I don't support laws against Holocaust denial.
>>363207
>Yeah, that's because the article you posted is hilariously bad, but the Nizkor project has done some good work, so I thought I would mention that rather than the laughably bad article you linked.
Why?
>So wait, we're now saying there weren't mass gassings? Because the article you linked is saying there were....peculiar.....
This is a complete misrepresentation of what I said.
>>363221
idk how you define "western" but here we go:
Andorra
Argentina
Australia
Brazil
Bulgaria
Canada
Chile
Denmark
Estonia
Faroe Islands
Finland
Georgia
Greece
Holy See
Iceland
Ireland
Italy
Japan
Jersey
Korea (South)
Latvia
Macedonia
Malta
Mexico
Moldova
Monaco
Montenegro
New Zealand
Norway
Panama
Paraguay
Peru
Puerto Rico
Serbia
Singapore
Spain
Sweden
Ukraine
United Kingdom
United States
Uruguay
>>363232
https://books.google.ca/books?id=nPbr0XzlTzcC&pg=PA240&dq=The+gas+chambers+were+dismantled+or+destroyed&hl=en&sa=X&ei=SnymT6LFH5PE8QPth43LBA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=The%20gas%20chambers%20were%20dismantled%20or%20destroyed&f=false
>>363243
Because antisemitism means hatred of Jews and the people who argue otherwise are just using semantics even though they know exactly what the word means.
>>363291
Kek.
Jews are pretty autistic. Hopefully 23 and me fails at finding you "semites" a cure for your slew of diseases.
>>363297
A. Semantics are important, that's how we know words and definitions Desu sempai
B. Doesn't answer the second part of the question.
You seem awfully emotionally invested in this thread (^:
>>363191
lol
>>363255
now you must prove it to me using exactly my worldview haha see you can't well guess i win again
>>363291
Revisionists will ask how I can believe Berg after her claim about seeing them make soap out of human bodies. My answer is twofold: (1) we do not accept eyewitness accounts by themselves as proof of the Holocaust or gas chamber story, without corroboration from other eyewitnesses as well as physical evidence; (2) in this particular case, Berg was enraged at Bradley Smith for denying what she knows happened to her own family members and friends, and struck out at him with this statement when he also challenged the soap story. Despite the differences in specifics of accounts, there is a core of truth at their center, and the gassing and cremating of prisoners is one of the most important cores.
>>363329
M8 I have no world view of the holocaust. Shit doesn't effect me.
Just saying it's not a good idea to use blatantly disargued honestments.
Some people call it arguing like a Jew.
>>363304
>A. Semantics are important, that's how we know words and definitions Desu sempai
We know what Semites are, but the term "antisemitism" exclusively refers to Jews. Denial of this is only used so antisemites can avoid the accusation.
>B. Doesn't answer the second part of the question.
Jews didn't invent this, the term "antisemitism" was coined by an antisemite to make his hatred seem more scientific. Besides, many groups have their own words to describe hatred towards them.
>>363333
I was referring to your definition of "western" nations. Seeing as there is no accepted definition, a bunch of nations which are potentially western were posted. You then proceeded to claim they weren't western.
>>362688
What's hard to believe? Have you ever looked at numbers from the world wars before? Millions of people were sloshing around the continent killing each other, and millions of people were dying all over the place, of war or of famine. 11-12 million dead from an organized campaign using industrial infrastructure is an eminently reasonable number.
>>363340
Semantics are very important Desu sempai, I'm not an anti-semite by any respect, as I'm a half jew myself
>Oy gevalt
But it doesn't refer to just jews. That perpetuates anti-muslim sentiment.
You still didn't answer the second half, why do jewish people get a special word to spout anytime their practice or other associations are criticized?
question
did more jews die in the camps or did more jews die in the earlier stages when the einsatzgruppen was just going around shooting them?
>>362724
In south america this is quite obvious, with the right wing denying the torture and killing in the dictatorships of the 70s
>>363379
>But it doesn't refer to just jews. That perpetuates anti-muslim sentiment.
Anti-Muslim sentiments (and most Muslims are not semites) is Islamophobia, and I don't know why it was defined this way, or why "Semite" was chosen.
>why do jewish people get a special word to spout anytime their practice or other associations are criticized?
What do you mean? The term wasn't coined by a Jew, it was coined by an antisemite to describe his beliefs. It now has a negative connotation, and is used to describe hatred of Jews. I don't see the issue, or why this is even relevant.
Dude. U can hate the Zionist and not be a big enough retard to deny the han solocaust.
>>363388
Kek.
Double dubs Hitler dubs.
I laugh at the lengths you go to defend this.
>>362725
im not sure about the part of the 6 millions (who really knows at this point), but the rest it's true, holocaust happened, no matter if it was thousands or millions of people who died, it was a hell for the people who lived it.
>>362688
Holocaust Denial is to History what Creationism is to Biology.
Let's take this as an educational experience. Not as a social engineering experience where we say hey we are the good guys and those are the bad guys.
Do any of you know about wars established prior to and after world war 2.
Straw(man) lawsuits filed. Against anyone for future...
I remember having a conversation with a lawyer. He said America is so free when it comes to lawsuits you can file...certain...charges against anyone for any future occurrence. Supposed loophole lies within security laws...if its any good a nation would enact it. The question is whether it is ethical and how has it been used in the political scheme.
>>363688
laws.
time obstacle. or the masonic (collectively constructed) death trap.
let's say, there is a terrorist organization. It has a funny name in some language. give it mnemonically performing name with two meanings.
Let's say one day if need be Al Qaeda. The islamic organization named by the u.s. via proxies becomes La Caida. In case of a latino insurgence within the united states.
>>363713
Isis/Daesh. Da Ish. Just a facade.
Its a rather simple thing. Who laid the peoples low?
Why does one group of people protect the same people that were in charge of bombarding them. What had to occur?
How does the most ethnically diverse allied group gets called racist by the most homogeneous group?
let's continue to figure this thing out. We have our whole lives ahead of us.
in life they say like attracts like because you receive what you give. But life doesn't always act that accordingly. The jewish people didnt need to die by the millions. or 1 in 10 jewish prisoners perishing. The only true law to life is chaos.
>this thread
holy shit the JIDF is real
>>362761
I think it's less "the scale" and more "look at me, I'm a special snowflake!"
>>362974
You should have seen it for the first few days. The stormfaggots filled up the front page with holocaust denial threads.
Holy fucking shit... Does the majority of this board seriously believe every bit of the holohoax?
I'm at work right now but within the next few days I'll post a thread with some damning evidence.
Seriously where did you people come from? Are we being taken over by reddit shills or naive high schoolers? Calling someone a racist is no longer a valid argument, its literally s buzzword at this point.
>>363893
Maybe OP, or you for that matter, should back themselves up with evidence in the first place, and not just claim you have it.
>>363893
>I'm at work right now but within the next few days I'll post a thread with some damning evidence.
No you won't. You'll come back with a stupid infograph image.
>>363905
That's pretty ironic. Technically you're the one making the claim, so the burden of proof should be on you to provide evidence.
>inb4 gross exaggerations and outright fabrications
>>363379
Not that guy but it's reasonable to have a term for a specific brand of hatred when a specific brand of hatred exists. It's simpler to say "Islamophobe" than, has a hatred of Islam, for example.
Yeah, sometimes people will misuse it to their advantage. Doesn't make the word itself less useful.
>>363997
I didn't make any claim, OP started out claiming that he had done some deep research, and you claimed you could post evidence. No evidence was delivered, so we're unfortunately stuck with the findings of mainstream historians.
>>362688
>>What about you guys? Do you believe the official story?
Pathetic way to weasel in the suggestion that what actually happened is just an official "story"
The first time I got suspicious was when I read a Jews story about axe throwing Nazis on motorcycles killing his family. The second time was when I read about the Nazi rollercoaster of death. Once I realized all of the accounts were fabricated I started researching for myself. The Jews declared war on ze Germans in 33 so if it did happen the Germans were just defending themselves.
Jews actually made Hitler invade other countries. I've spent five days on intense research on this and it's surprising how evil the kikes were.
Read 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion' it really redpills you. Solid proof that Jews are planning something; leftys will say it's fake, but they're just scared of being enlightened.
Hitler was a good guy with good intentions who happened to become the unfortunate whipping boy of the zionist jews. If not hitler it would have been some other well meaning person. The Jews needed a fabricated event to justify the creation of Israel. The holohoax makes for a good sob story. They will keep milking it until whites wake up
>>364065
>>364077
>>364085
>>362688
site your sources?
are they primary or secondary sources?
You can't rely on word and mouth on the internet where literally anyone can say anything.
If you actually believe into the nazi propoganda you have a personality like a sheep where you will do as you are told. I dont mean this as be scared of the government I mean this as actually think why you would think in a certain way. look into ideology to start off with. then look into logic. Americans are easily manupitable
>>364008
Your claim is that 6 million Jews were purposefully murdered in a genocide.
Where are your proofs? Do you have proofs? I see no proofs.
The arguments made against the holocaust aren't that Jews were never interned or that none died while internee, but that the claims of how they were treated and how many died are grossly exaggerated for the sake of special interests (and that interest is an entire nation beig formed, that's pretty important to a lot of people and gives them a good reason to make up stories). There's plenty of proof that the claims are grossly exaggerated, for example no Jews were turned into soap and leather lampshades (who the fuck even uses leather for lampshades?). There are plenty of ways to research for yourself at your fingertips and come to your own unbiased conclusion, I'll try to get a thread going soon if you choose not to and remain wilfully ignorant.
>>364275
You make a claim, you back it off. Making a claim and then demanding that others prove otherwise is kindergarden shit that has no place here.
>no Jews were turned into soap
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap_made_from_human_corpses#Danzig_Anatomical_Institute
>leather lampshades
No lampshades, but human skin souvenirs.
Have you ever read an actual textbook on some aspect of the holocaust?
>>364275
>There's plenty of proof that the claims are grossly exaggerated, for example no Jews were turned into soap and leather lampshades (who the fuck even uses leather for lampshades?)
So are you saying it's normal to believe all anecdotes of propaganda?
>>364292
>you back it off
up*
>>364275
>Your claim is that 6 million Jews were purposefully murdered in a genocide.
I have never claimed this, historians have, based on eveidence. I have never conducted historical research in this field, other than reading their books. You said you had evidence that proves said historians wrong, but you didn't provide any, so now I'm beginning to believe that you're lying for the sake of an ideological agenda, otherwise it should have been pretty easy to provide the evidence you claim to posess.
>for example no Jews were turned into soap and leather lampshades
I never claimed other wise, and neither did any historian I ever read on the topic. Maybe you should start by pointing out which claim by which person you consider unbelieveable, and why. And then I can see wether a) your reasons for incredulity are appropriate and b) wether this casts any doubt whatsoever on the deliberate genocide of 5-6 million jews.
>>364292
Oh so you make the rules of debates now? No. You play by my rules. And textbooks don't count.
>>362712
Have you ever heard of "primary sources"? Secondary sources are suspect -- not because they're deceptive, but because they're less reliable.
Do yourself a favor -- seek out some primary sources. If you're not sure where to start, go back to your secondary sources and check the footnotes.
Otherwise your "research" is high-school tier and as far as whether or not it is shit: it is shit. Shorthand for "non-academic."
>>363815
>holy shit the JIDF is real
> O MY GOSHERS. I JUST CAME TO A REALIZATION THAT I DIDN'T ALREADY BUY INTO, BUT I'LL PRETEND THAT I'VE JUST BEEN ENLIGHTENED.
>millions of jews live in Germany + Poland
>after WWII, barely any jews live in Germany + Poland
>hurr durr Hitler didn't do nuffing
>>363893
>Are we being taken over by reddit shills or naive high schoolers?
Lel, pretending that you're actually educated or informed.
>>363382
>did more jews die in the camps or did more jews die in the earlier stages when the einsatzgruppen was just going around shooting them?
Legit question. From what I understand, more died in the camps. Not to say that many didn't die during the earlier chaotic phases.
But the leadership saw the toll that the face-to-face executions were taking on the executioners: many of them had to get themselves drunk before they took on the Jew- (and other-) shootin' duties. After all, most were (sort of) normal people, albeit indoctrinated, and few were genuine psychopaths. So the earlier phases of shootings and dumping into mass graves was seen as damaging on the psyche of the German soldiers involved.
So the more sanitary methods of execution were developed partly to spare the German soldiers from the trauma of having to go on these killing sprees where they had at least minimal interaction with their victims. But more importantly the camps and the gas-exhaust vans were developed for the sake of efficiency and expediency.
>>364310
>Oh so you make the rules of debates now? No. You play by my rules.
I' not sure if you realized the hypocrisy in this statement.
>And textbooks don't count.
"you must prove this to me exactly in the way i want you to prove it to me with sources approved by me haha you can't well i guess i win again"
>>364353
>>after WWII, barely any jews live in Germany + Poland
I live in Krakow, Poland, and there is pretty much no Jewish presence. Prior to WWII (well, more exactly, prior to late-19th century), Poland was pretty much the go-to spot for Jews who Jews who had to deal with expulsions and other shit from other European countries. It was a safe haven for hundreds of years.
It's not exactly "scientific proof" of what you're saying, but prior to WWII, it was a very Jewish city. You can see old photographs from all over the city (not just the Jewish district) -- not only are there Jews all over the place, but I'd say the majority of shop windows showed Jewish names (offering items and services of all sorts, not just money-lending -- bakeries, bicycle repairs, laundries, etc...).
That all changed very with the German occupation. Now it's extremely rare to run into someone with a Jewish last name, much less see a Jewish-owned shop (outside of the old Jewish district, which has a handful of Jewish-themed restaurants and hotels... almost none owned or operated by Jews, of course).
>Everyone saying six million
12 million including "degenerates" and gypsies.
>>363119
Not according to orders issued by Himmler.
>There was actually a study on this in the British Journal of Industrial Medicine (Prattle, 47-55.) The researchers ran a few experiments in which various animals were exposed to diesel fumes, and studied the results.
>In the experiments, the exhaust of a small diesel engine (568 cc, 6 BHP) was connected to a chamber 10 cubic meters (340 cubic feet) in volume, and the animals were put inside it. In all cases, the animals died. Death was swifter when the intake of air to the engine was restricted, as this causes a large increase in the amount of carbon monoxide (CO) that is emitted. (See, for instance, Diesel Engine Reference Book, by Lilly, 1985, p. 18/8, where it is stated that at a high air/fuel ratio the concentration of CO is only a few parts per million but for lower ratios (25:1) the concentration of CO can rise up to 3,000 ppm. It is very easy to restrict the air intake - the British researchers did so by partially covering the air intake opening with a piece of metal.)
>Even in cases where the CO output was low, the animals still died from other toxic components - mainly, irritants and nitrogen dioxide.
>>365178
>Now, the diesel engines used in Treblinka were much larger - they belonged to captured Soviet T-34 tanks. These tanks weighed 26-31 tons (depending on the model) and had a 500 BHP engine (compared to a mere 6 BHP in the British experiments). The volume of the extermination chambers in Treblinka is, of course, a factor. But the chambers' volume is about 60 cubic meters (2040 cubic feet); this is 6 times more than those in the British experiments, but the difference in the size of the engines is much larger than a factor of 6.
>It should be remembered that what matters in CO poisoning is not the concentration of CO, but the ratio of CO to oxygen. In a small, gas-tight room, crammed full of people, oxygen levels drop quickly, thus making death by CO poisoning faster. As noted, other toxic components in the fumes further accelerate mortality.
>>362688
Fuck off
No seriously fuck off
I know at least 3 people with grandparents who lost their entire families so don't tell me the holocaust never happened, I'll never believe it didn't
You literally have train reports from Treblinka
(Franciszek Ząbecki „Wspomnienia dawne i nowe”, Warszawa 1977), eyewitnesses (Memoirs of Warsaw Gettho Uprising leader, Marek Edelman: "We sent a friend of ours, Zygmunt, to see what really goes on with these transports. He rode with engine drivers from Gdańsk Station. In Sokołow they told him, that rails split, one goes to Treblinka, each day a train passes filled with people and comes back empty. Food is not supplied."), Höfle Telegram, censuses ("Of the grand total of 6 million citizens Poland lost during World War 2, 3 million were of Jewish ethnicity." (Zagłada Żydów (1939-1945), Julian Grzesik, Lublin 2011), as well as numerous works by Polish (country, which 30 000 Jews left due to Antisemitism) and Soviets (country wer Jews were deported to Birobidzhan)
>>364453
Unlike most people, holocaust deniers really only care about the jews. Why is that? Your guess is as good as mine.
Where is the 4-5 eyewitness shit coming from?
They had 100s and 100s between the Treblinka trials, Eichmann's trial, Strangl's trial, the Nuremberg trials, etc.
They had 100s of testimonies from those not present or charged but associated with Treblinka.
OP, make sure you read "The Good Old Days: The Holocaust as Seen by Its Perpetrators and Bystanders" during your extensive, academic, exhaustive research.
>>362688
There's a lot of sketchy shit Tbh. For example, all camps investigated by the allies turned out to be labor camps and the only death camps were ones investigated by the soviet union which is very suspicious. Due to the taboo nature of the subject nobody after the war went back to analyze the holocaust like we usually do with historical events thus a lot of shit is probably lost.
>>365291
The labor camps predate the "Final Solution" of 1942. Death camps were built in Poland because it had the largest concentration of Jews. Why the fuck would you build a death camp in France or Austria just to ship those you're killing such a vast distance?
I mean fuck, are any of you deniers capable of thought? How do you manage to breathe?
>>365291
>the only death camps were ones investigated by the soviet union which is very suspicious
Actually, this is true only of Auschwit and Maidanek. The Reinhart camps had been completely dismantled by the time of liberation.
>nobody after the war went back to analyze the holocaust
Literally thousands of people have done this.
>>365320
You can't trust the soviet union, they even lied about having Hitler's body during the war even though he was cremated.
>>365344
No, the holocaust story has never really been revised and the story has pretty much been the same since the end of WWII. Read anything about the holocaust, there is barely anything that is "alleged" a lot is taken as 100% fact.
>>365369
>A: says its sketchy that death camps were only in the easy
>B: gives the explination behind this, prove original assertion wrong
>A: goes off on different tangent
Grasp them straws, fuckboy.
>>365369
>Read anything about the holocaus
How about you start doing that, because it certainly doesn't sound like you have. And I mean books. By historians.
>>363288
>autism
>>362703
>writing on this topic is career suicide
suicide of what career?
>>362703
>writing on this topic is career suicide
no its not, if you have a reasonable point backed by evidence people will take you seriously
>>365369
The Holocaust has been revised numerous times.
The idea of Jew's bodies being made into soap and lampshade was proven false. The idea that 4 million and 3 million died at Auschwitz and Treblinka respectively was discredited. The debate still rages among academia of functionalism vs intentionalism.
The difference is that nobody with serious academic credentials disputes the Holocaust taking place, but they dispute certain aspects of it.
It would be completely reasonable to argue that less people died at Treblinka than previously thought if you can bring such evidence for it. Holocaust deniers do not do that, they just deny the whole event entirely.
It is like World War II. There are plenty of historians who dispute certain aspects and numbers associated with the war, but nobody disputes that World War II ever happened.
Yes, I believe the Holocaust happened based on evidence
Stormfront faggot conspiracy theorists can fuck off
>>366045
The "career suicide" thing is what gets me. Functionalism versus Intentionalism is arguably the largest single-issue histiographical debate in contemporary academic history
>>366045
>denying the whole event
No one but David Icke tier schizophrenics argues the entire event was a fabrication.
>>362688
Fuck off stormfag.
>>366365
Ok they do not deny that there were camps, and that jews were brought to those camps, and that some of them just so happened to die at some point of the process. What they deny is that it was murder. They're basically saying that the nazos just watched the jews drop and thought, oh shit what happened there, seems like our camps aren't safe for jews for some reason, now let's get all the jews in europe into those.
>>366951
I thought the usual stormfag argument was that they weren't really deadly, only when the Allies started bombing (nevermind that most bombing was in western Germany which didn't exactly ship food or medicine to Poland) is when Jews started dropping dead.
>>366951
>What they deny is that it was murder.
If I abduct a person and keep that person in unsafe conditions and they die as a result it isn't murder its...well...its....its something else but it sure as hell isn't murder!
....sigh....
I don't know why I bother; people this dense cannot be reasoned with.
Rudolf Hoess' testimony at Nuremberg in 1946 is pretty damning with regards to Treblinka. He wasn't some random SS officer; he was the goddamn Commandant of Auschwitz.
He basically bragged that he did it better when it came to killing.
>Another improvement we made over Treblinka was that we built our gas chambers to accommodate 2,000 people at one time, whereas at Treblinka their 10 gas chambers only accommodated 200 people each.
As if that weren't enough, he bragged about it in his memoirs too.
>>364008
op here this
http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/08-t.pdf
book was pretty good
all sourced and referenced
>>364111
http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/08-t.pdf
this book was decent. all sources are in there.
>>364347
those ARE the primary sources retard
>>363398
2 late I know but holy shit the staggering autism
>start an argument and get btfo
>post the equivalent of nothing personnel kid
>no one even responds to this excessive fahgotry
Baited/10
>>364353
op here, I don't know how to answer this, and if you actually look into the literature it's not as clear as you think
I think a lot moved during and after the war, i.e. emigration
also, after the war the way you could identify yourself changed, as in you could just tick your ethnicity on the census. so a lot of jews chose to assume different nationalities for various reasons
also, a lot died in the war/executed/died in camps (not gassed)
I think the biggest point though is that population decline is not proof of murder
take it on an individual level. lets say two surveys are done on your flat. first one shows 5 people living there, second one shows just you. is this proof you murdered all 4?
>>367452
don't you realize how absurd that 'brag' is?
If there were that many jews in the camps, why didn't they rebel?
Seems like they outnumbered the guards at least 1000 to 1.
>>368018
Why is this level of anti intellectualism allowed here? Issues aside, I don't mind discussion in a reasonable way but this is just getting silly.
It's that old stormweenie chestnut
>the holocaust was fake and never happened
>but it was good and should happen again fuck your ancestors heheh
It's just pointless shitposting on a board that should be for historical discussion. I say that blatant racist shitposting ought to be banned from here. Let it fester in the pits of /pol/ and /b/, where the other primates can fling their shit.
Daily reminder that by stormfag holohoax standards, things like Charlemagne, Spanish Armada, Black Death, Magellan, the Russian/Turkish front and so on and so on are all hoaxes.
>>363382
Legit question about where the numbers fall.
This guy:
>>364364
Pretty much details the process of how they went from shooting Jews inna woods, to having camps for this.
Immediately after the war the assumption was that it was mostly camps, because people can survive camps, you don't survive inna woods (one of the reasons the Germans switched to industrialized killing camps).
So if anyone died, it was widely assumed they went to some camp.
The tendency within historiagraphy has been an increasing emphasis on the Einsatzgruppen, and increasingly, the Heer. 60 years later, it's pretty clear that the the German Army was deeply involved in the holocaust.
>>365277
We have hundreds of eyewitness for the internal workings of an obscure police battalion from Hannover's involvement in the Holocaust.
Eyewitnesses are everywhere, and it's amazing how candid they can be.
>Due to the taboo nature of the subject nobody after the war went back to analyze the holocaust like we usually do with historical events
It is literally one of the most thoroughly analyzed and scrutinized events in human history.
>>366128
It's also arguably the nastiest. Functionalists have to deal with being labeled anti-semites or holocaust deniers all the time, and they don't care, because they actually have facts to back them up.
>>368143
did the germans have any other units like the einsatzgruppen? or rather, which units were the most deeply involved in the holocaust
kind of tangentially related, but the way the german military is structured confuses me a bit. i understand the standard wehrmacht/luftwaffe/kriegsmarine, but where and how does the SS fit into it?
>>368096
You mean heavily mystified and idealized? Sure
>>368251
Imagine if brownshirt activists were given some policial duties
>>368251
>but the way the german military is structured confuses me a bit.
This means you have a normal functioning brain, unlike the Germans.
>i understand the standard wehrmacht/luftwaffe/kriegsmarine, but where and how does the SS fit into it?
OK, first you have to understand the Party/State distinction. The NSDAP obviously predates Hitler's rise to power. The NSDAP had party organs under it including the SA, Hitlerjugend, party newspapers, psuedo-labor unions etc.
Those continued to be part of the party after they seized power.
At the same time, as much as they hated it, the Nazis maintained legal continuity with the Weimar Republic. The same constitution was in force, the same legal code, and all of the organs of the state, including the newly renamed Wehrmacht.
So, the short answer was that the SS was just a party organ. Originally it's purpose was just to be Hitler's bodyguard. That was it. It eventually spread to be effectively a state within a state that was the confusing mess of Nazi bureaucracy.
The Waffen-SS, or armed SS, starts off initially quite small: a group of volunteers in Poland. Eventually it grew into a massive independent army, fielding armored divisions.
There was a number of factors, including one that the SS was free to recruit in the occupied territories, the increasing radicalization of the Nazi State, etc.
But how it fit in...technically it didn't. It was a private institution, independent of the German state, that sometimes, but not always, gave operational control to the German Army.
>>362703
>who is Ernst Nolte
He pretty much came out and said the Nazis weren't so bad because muh communism. It created a huge shitstorm but he moved on and even won the Konrad Adenauer Prize
>>368309
>But how it fit in...technically it didn't. It was a private institution, independent of the German state, that sometimes, but not always, gave operational control to the German Army.
this all sounds like a cluster fuck, how did the ss and the wehrmact even coordinate with each other in battle?
>>368371
>this all sounds like a cluster fuck, how did the ss and the wehrmact even coordinate with each other in battle?
Like a lot of German things, it's a clusterfuck by design. Because if you can have a clusterfuck, you can force someone else to intervene to sort out your clusterfuck (Eventually Hitler), and then it's a matter of who can kiss ass and pull favours more effectively.
This is how the size of the Waffen-SS managed to expand by several thousand percent in 6 years.
If for example, there's Tiger tanks produced, there is NO system in place that determines how many go to the Waffen-SS and how many go to the Army.
>>367994
learn the definition of the word primary, stinky brain
>>368012
>I think a lot moved during and after the war, i.e. emigration
Except after counting up all the Jews around the world following the war there were nearly 6 million missing. Even today there aren't as many Jews as before the Holocaust.
>also, after the war the way you could identify yourself changed, as in you could just tick your ethnicity on the census. so a lot of jews chose to assume different nationalities for various reasons
also, a lot died in the war/executed/died in camps (not gassed)
People still identified as Jewish by religion.
>I think the biggest point though is that population decline is not proof of murder
When you are having a steady increase in population all around the world and then suddenly your population drops by a 1/3rd, it does.
>take it on an individual level. lets say two surveys are done on your flat. first one shows 5 people living there, second one shows just you. is this proof you murdered all 4?
This is beyond retarded. 5 people living in a flat is very different from 6 million people living across Europe.
I don't know why people have this fixation on the numbers. If they are wrong I don't really care. I have relatives with numbers on their arms. That alone is highly immoral and reprehensive.
>>368948
Because if the numbers aren't precisely how it is reported as true, conspiratorial anti-semites thinks this proves anything suspect, which it doesn't.
>>369021
70 years of research from people from all walks of life and different reasons for researching all came together on a fabricated number?
>>369028
Some people believe that yes, which I think is retarded.
Even if the actual number of dead was 100,000 less people, or even more people, it doesn't change the fact that Nazi-Germany hates Jewry, and wanted it annihilated, regardless of whatever some retarded /pol/-tard thinks.
>>363134
>Using the Institute of Historical Review as a source
Read this fine book: http://www.amazon.com/Lying-About-Hitler-Richard-Evans/dp/0465021530
describes how the IHR works, and how their "historians" come up with their findings
Straight from the horses mouth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AFhwwgL-94
"Today, I will once more be a prophet. If the international finance-Jewry inside and outside Europe should succeed in plunging the nations of the world into a world war yet again, then the result will not be the bolzhevization of the earth, and thus the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe."
And here come the Naziboos who will tell you that the word "Vernichtung " means something other than "Annihilation" or "destruction", there is no other meaning to the word.
>>369077
>this video isn't available in your country
>most massive conspiracy in the history of mankind
>discovered by a guy who read some blogs online and watched a documentary
>>362703
Or even jail, like in Austria.
>>370337
yes it must be why austrians like botz or weinzierl were jailed for writing about the holocaust oh wait they weren't
>>369061
Richard Evans' books are fucking God tier.
>>370545
He's mostly writing for a pop audience and somewhat sloppy with his sourcing and his argumentation is more emotional than is becoming.
>>362705
You're using their own terminology to insult them, implicitly implying that their right about race. I don't think that's going to offend them.
>>370331
Reddit is better on any topic than 4chan, if you're looking for an actual answer.
I think the numbers are exaggerated.
I don't think they intended to kill all the Jews
I don't believe they gassed Jews to death.
>>368948
My gf has a barcode tattooed on her ass and it is pretty hot, desu.
This thread is pretty lame, where did all the fun people who made /pol/ interesting in 2012 go?
>ITT autists think that the documented deaths were the only dearth
>thinking jews in the east weren't killed in their masses in the middle of nowhere
Whats with Germanboos and yelling "proofs not good enough!!!!"
