Has there ever been a war as pointless as WW1?
For me It has always been much more tragic than any other war because of the trivial nature of the its beginnings. Nobody knew what they were really getting themselves into. The last European conflagration before The Great War was the Napoleonic wars about a century earlier.
There's also an interesting angle to WW1 where its the last war where it was still vogue for rich, royal and prestigious families to send their kids to serve the army. British Prime Minster H. Asquith's son(s) died in the war, along with a number of other noble children from all sides. Serving beside them were the very poorest of each society. Peasants from Russia pulled off from their modest subsistence farms, equipped with the bare minimum, sometimes given a musket, sometimes with no weapon at all, and marched to the front to serve a Tsar and a motherland that had provided them only with the most meager existence.
The stories about what it was like to serve in a trench are gut-wrenching. Chronic cases of "boot-rot" that resulted in amputation. Living quarters crawling with rats spreading lice and disease. Prolonged periods of shelling, deafening salvos that literally drove men mad, it was so prevalent that what we know as PTSD was known as 'shell-shock' to them. The constant screams of the recently wounded stranded in no-mans land. Poison gas that creeped across the battle field.
and for what?
Oh plenty
just not a lot of people died in them
>>357778
1800s romanticism crashed hard with the brutal industrialism of the 1900s.
Teddy Roosevelt's kid died in WW1 too.
That pic really makes me think he's a lizard.
like any of the great crises of the world the fault can be squarely laid at the feet of the germanics
someone needs to go back in time and give the romans gas chambers so we can be rid of them
>>357778
#trenchfoot
>>357824
T H I S
H
I
S
>>357943
this book fucked me up
WW1 was in many ways a disaster born out of hubris and arrogance.
Many of the nations in Europe were, as you said, not prepared for what industrial production could do to warfare, but the fact remains that Germany and Austria-Hungary were spoiling for a fight. Russia likely would have gone to war on its own sooner or later as well, using the pretext of aiding Serbia as casus belli. Which was essentially what happened anyway, if only earlier than Russia would have liked.
Virtually every major power involved believed that the war would be over in a matter of months, if not weeks. Germany's strategy was to subdue France in a short campaign by quickly taking Paris, then turning its attention to Russia, who they hoped to defeat before winter set in. Austria-Hungary though invading Serbia would take only a couple weeks at most, and that the Russians would be easily driven off by the combined force of their own armies and Germany's. Both France and Britain believed the German offensives could be quickly repulsed and the fight taken back to Germany's doorstep before December.
Both sides underestimated the other, and underestimated the devastation that could be wrought by modern artillery and ordinance. The first couple months of the war were horrifically bloody, battles that left tens of thousands dead in a span of hours, because they thought they could win quickly with a few all out offensives.
>>358146
>Many of the nations in Europe were, as you said, not prepared for what industrial production could do to warfare, but the fact remains that Germany and Austria-Hungary were spoiling for a fight.
Correct! Surprisingly so, given /his/ WW1 threads.
>Virtually every major power involved believed that the war would be over in a matter of months, if not weeks.
But this is incorrect! The "home by Christmas" is a myth, the elites on all sides knew well the conflict would be prolonged, with many prophesying years of warfare, nor was there any particularly large war enthusiasm contrary to popular belief. The Germans certainly aimed for a quick victory in the west but they too were not foolish to think the entire conflict would be over in a matter of months.
>>357778
>Has there ever been a war as pointless as WW1?
What sort of ridiculous bullshit is this?
How exactly was it pointless?
If WW1 is pointless then all wars including WW2 are pointless.
>trivial nature of the its beginnings
What trivial nature of its beginnings? At its roots you will find German and Austrian ambition, those are not trivial things.
>and for what?
To protect your homeland from an unprovoked invasion? To repel the attacker occupying one of your most important industrial centers for years? To stand by your allies doing the above?
>>357943
>>358158
>Correct! Surprisingly so, given /his/ WW1 threads.
It's wrong though. Germany wasn't any more eager to fight than Russia or France.
>The Germans certainly aimed for a quick victory in the west but they too were not foolish to think the entire conflict would be over in a matter of months.
This is utter nonsense. The military planning on all sides was offensive with the British, obviously due to their geo-strategic disposition. Everyone aimed to end war quickly. In fact, for Germany it a was absolutely imperative to end the war quickly because they knew that they couldn't win a lengthy war on two fronts. They didn't push through Belgium because they liked messing with people, they pushed through Belgium because it was the only way for them to win.
>>358823
>The military planning on all sides was offensive with the British, obviously due to their geo-strategic disposition.
By that I meant: with the British being the exception.
Their planning aimed for a lengthy war of course.
>>357778
Not to mention those rats would take bites out of you.
Could Germany have won if they had fought a defensive war against France without invading Belgium and thereby preventing British involvement? Focussing on a quick victory against Russia. Then agreeing with France on a white peace?
>>358823
>It's wrong though. Germany wasn't any more eager to fight than Russia or France.
Are you retarded or something?
The myth of "Germany dindu nothing in WW1" was created during the Cold War to reabilitate them (as tjhey were a necessary ally) without dminushing their evilness in WW2
It completly direcgard facts though, so you just have to look at them instead of swallowing every PC bullshit you hear
>>358916
Such a naive and post....
>Could Germany have won if they had fought a defensive war against France without invading Belgium and thereby preventing British involvement?
Belgium was only a pretext
Can't believe the number of uneducated fucks who unironically believe it was the reason or British involvement
Ever heard of the Triple Entente? Britaion had a military alliance with France and Russia
>Focussing on a quick victory against Russia. Then agreeing with France on a white peace?
Except the German plan was the exact contrary
They wanted to take France out quickly to focus on Russia
>>358935
>The myth of "Germany dindu nothing in WW1" was created during the Cold War to reabilitate them (as tjhey were a necessary ally) without dminushing their evilness in WW2
Germany did a lot in WW1. However, they weren't the singular aggressor. France and Russia were just as much at fault when it came to escalating the situation.
>>358956
>Such a naive and post....
It was just a question. You don't have to be a dick about it, man.
>Can't believe the number of uneducated fucks who unironically believe it was the reason or British involvement
>I was taught Britain was leaning towards neutrality before the invasion of Belgium. They were afraid the war would hurt their economy and trade routes too much, which was true in the end.
>>358964
Not really, no
France tried its best to stay outside of it, and Russia didnt want to get involved with Germany
But Germany went full retard and attacked them both, turning what could have been a regional conflict into a world war
>>358970
Britain isnt some superhero from a movie that defend the weak because it's fair/noble/whatever
Their interest was always to fight Germany, Belgium was just the most convenient pretext for the pleb to swallow the pill and support the war
>>358978
>Not really, no
Yes, really.
They should have realised that Austria was deeply hurt and that they weren't going to back down on this one. The pride of the Serbian nation was not worth millions of lives. Instead of escalating the conflict by backing Serbia they could have signalled them to let Austria do as they pleased.
The fact that this led to war was as much diplomatic failure on their side as it was on the Austro-German side.
It takes two sides for this sort of thing.
>>358983
What would have been the pill for the pleb to swallow without Belgium? I was also taught the Germans were surprised the British declared war on them.
>>358956
Germany invading Belgium helped martial members of the cabinet who were not pro-war into supporting the war, it was definitely important.
Edward Grey spent his entire term as Foreign Secretary planning foreign policy in relative secrecy, and once the cabinet found out about his policy in 1911 a lot of them were strongly against his support of France, to the point of being anti-war with Germany.
The Triple Entente wasn't a binding alliance dumbfuck, only the French and Russians were allied and that alliance was actually initially targeted at Britain.
By 1911 Britain was reassing its diplomatic position because Russia had recovered from the Russo-Japanese loss and was making moves in Persia/the Balkans.
>can't believe the number of uneducated fucks
irony
>>358978
Elements of the french foreign office were very pro-war, but you're right in that the majority of government wasn't.
>>358991
Elements of the German government didn't believe Britain would support France/Russia in a conflict against them, but those that did felt the Schlieffen plan made the risk worthwhile.
It was always in Britain's interests to intervene just to stop any change to the lowlands.
>>358984
>The pride of the Serbian nation was not worth millions of lives
But the one of the Polish nation is?
If not, then I guess Germany dindu nuffin in WW2 either....
>Waaaaaaaah! Why dont you let us invade Serbia?
>Waaaaaaaah! Why dont you let us invade Poland?
>>359000
>It was always in Britain's interests to intervene just to prevent any hegemon from rising in Europe
Fixed that for you
Britain's gun was aimed at Germany, they didnt give two shit about Belgium
Did Britain intervene during the Belgian Revolution? I dont think so
>>359004
This wasn't about annexing Serbia for the purpose of grabbing their land and exterminating them, so the comparison is nonsense.
>>359013
>Did Britain intervene during the Belgian Revolution? I dont think so
The British foreign secretary literally led the talks on who should be the new ruler of Belgium.
Belgium's independence was guaranteed by Britain as they got their independence, i'm pretty sure they cared about the change.
>Britain's gun was aimed at Germany, they didnt give two shit about Belgium
Britain only cared when it came to France, from 1911 the British and Germans were cooperating to manage Russia/Austria-Hungary in the Balkans, read a fucking book.
>>357986
serb pls go
Fun fact, Wilhelm and Nikolai were trying to stop the war up until the end.
>>359014
THIS
Serbs rejected the Austrian ultimatum in which they demanded their police to investigate the death of the Archduke Ferdinand, Austria never wanted to annex serbia. IMO shitskin balkanigger slavs caused this war.
>>359091
>IMO shitskin balkanigger slavs caused this war.
They wouldn't have done so, without Russia backing them who in turn were backed by France. That's what I mean by everyone being at fault here.
>>357986
Stay buttmad that Germanic countries control the world
>>359094
mostly slavs tho. Imagine if Obama was visiting Sarajevo and gets shot by a serb, this is what it was like.
Hurrdurr muh kosovo
derpaherpa muh great serbia
>>359095
Are you implying that america is germanic?
Ok juan
>>359100
From the serb pov:
Bosniaks
>converted Serbs
Croats
>converted Serbs
Russians
>descendants of Serbs
>>359106
>speaks English
>largest ethnicity is german descended
>>359091
The Austrian ultimatum was almost impossible to fulfil. Austria really wanted war.
>>359264
>impossible to fulfill
>serbia accepted all points except allowing austrian officials to investigate the murder
we dindu nuffin, why you gotta investigate
>>357986
This!
Fagermans fucked up
Rome
Ww1
Ww2
Modern day with the every terrorist free to come. Plz
Fagermans are the cancer of europe
>A friend came to see me on one of the evenings of the last week — he thinks it was on Monday, August 3rd. We were standing at a window of my room in the Foreign Office. It was getting dusk, and the lamps were being lit in the space below... My friend recalls that I remarked on this with the words, "The lamps are going out all over Europe: we shall not see them lit again in our life-time."
Nor ours, Edward, nor ours.
>>359276
Allowing the police of a foreign country to investigate in yours is a serious humiliation. It was a stupid move from both Austria and Germany/
>>359350
>Serbian pride > going to war
>>357778
If you want a good idea about how optimistic British soldiers and civilians were in the first months of the war, read 1914 by Lyn Macdonald. It has a ton of first-hand accounts from diaries. 1915: The Death of Innocence is great too
And by Macdonald as well. Gives invaluable insight to Gallipoli and how optimism of a quick war in the Western Front evaporated.
>>357778
It basically fucked up Europe and drove it to another war following the mess that was the Treaty of Versailles. Moreover, the lost of human potential was terrifying. Many of those soldiers were university students who had a romantic self-made image of what was to fight in a war. And then they were taken to death like pigs in slaughter.
>that episode of Cheers that starts with the old WW1 vet coming into the bar for his yearly meetup with all his old war buddies
>tfw throughout the episode he pops up and tells them about some silly tradition they have or crazy stories they have, like how he punched the Kaiser in the face
>tfw hes happier and happier throughout the episode
>tfw it ends with them closing the bar and he realizes none of them or coming because they all died
>tfw he realizes he the last one left
>>357778
>Serving beside them were the very poorest of each society. Peasants from Russia pulled off from their modest subsistence farms, equipped with the bare minimum, sometimes given a musket, sometimes with no weapon at all, and marched to the front to serve a Tsar and a motherland that had provided them only with the most meager existence.
there's a reason why there were so many revolutions rocking europe after WW1 y'know?
Could WW1 at least have waited until Britain turned all of British Africa into productive westernised European style commonwealth states?
As related by Peter Hart in The Great War:
We automatically mounted the machine gun for action. Then like animals we burrowed into the earth as if trying to find protection deep in its bosom. Something struck my back where I carried my gas mask, but I did not pay attention to it. A steel splinter broke the handle of my spade and another knocked the remains out of my hand. I kept digging with my bare hands, ducking my head every time a shell exploded nearby. A boy to my side was hit in the arm and cried out for help. I crawled over to him, ripped the sleeves of his coat and shirt open and started to bind the bleeding part. The gas was so thick now I could hardly discern what I was doing. My eyes began to water and I felt as if I would choke. I reached for my gas mask, pulled it out of its container – then noticed to my horror that a splinter had gone through it leaving a large hole. I had seen death thousands of times, stared it in the face, but never experienced the fear I felt then. Immediately I reverted to the primitive. I felt like an animal cornered by hunters. With the instinct of self-preservations uppermost, my eyes fell on the boy whose arm I had bandaged. Somehow he had managed to put the gas mask on his face with his one good arm. I leapt at him and in the next moment had ripped the gas mask from his face. With a feeble gesture he tried to wrench it from my grasp; then fell back exhausted. The last thing I saw before putting on the mask were his pleading eyes.
>Corporal Frederick Meisel, 371 Infantry Regiment, 43rd Ersatz Brigade, 10th Ersatz Division, German Army
>>358119
That's the only book I actually didn't finish reading because it was so disturbing. I couldn't handle the horses screaming.
>>360137
>mfw I watched the straight-to-TV movie in 8th grade
>mfw little Fritz sticks his head out of the trench to draw a bird
>>357824
Thats everything I've ever thought on WW1, but I haven't been able to find words for. Did take that from book or something?
>>360179
>Did take that from book or something?
no I made it up. Maybe I should be a poet if you liked it so much
>>357824
>1800s romanticism
I think this illustrates that pretty well.
>>360197
poor dumb bastards had no fucking idea what is was going to be like. Almost like LARPers being transported back in time to fight in Agincourt and expecting it to be "fun"
at least people today saw Saving Private Ryan when they were 13 and thought "holy fuck, THATS what its like?!"
In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.
We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.
Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
>>360194
poet's about horrors of WW1, that could work.
>>359954
christ
>>360259
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knpZ2TvvBro
This shit was way too heavy for me when I was 7, man.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWF2JBb1bvM
One of the aspects of the war I have difficulty comprehending are the executions on british side, namely for "cowardice". Shooting the enemy is one thing, shooting your own soldiers just set an example is fucked up.
"On 26 November 1916, Goggins was guarding a position near Arras on the Western Front with Corporal John McDonald. Sergeant Joseph Stones, fleeing a German ambush, ran past their position shouting "Run for your lives, the Huns are on top of you!", and Goggins and McDonald retreated to a reserve trench 20 yards (18 m) away. Both men were subsequently charged with deserting their posts, and in spite of Stones' evidence that he had given the order to retreat, they were convicted at court martial on Christmas Eve and sentenced to death."
Note that a sergeant had ordered them to retreat, so not doing so would have been disobeying an order.
Sgt Stones was himself shot for sticking his jammed rifle across the trench to slow down the advancing germans, even though his superiors said that he wasn't a coward and that his Lt had ordered him to go and get help.
Pic related is a memorial for 306 executed men, made after the likeness of a 17 year old who had lied when enlisting and then shot for desertion.
>>360259
I visited the place where he wrote it, wasn't much to see but it was moving all the same. And then going to Tyne Cot...
>>359954
what an asshole
people taking days to drown in the mud. Mud which is equal parts blood, body parts, chemicals from the explosives, chemical weapons, human shit, horse shit and soggy flanders dirt.
Nobody can pull them out, shells going off around you, nothing you can do about it because you're thigh deep in concrete mud. Friends come to help you, get stuck too. Eventually up to your neck. Screaming for help constantly. Watching friends die constantly.
When I heard stories like this, I decided I would never complain again.
IF I should die, think only this of me;
That there's some corner of a foreign field
That is for ever England. There shall be
In that rich earth a richer dust concealed;
A dust whom England bore, shaped, made aware,
Gave, once, her flowers to love, her ways to roam,
A body of England's breathing English air,
Washed by the rivers, blest by suns of home.
And think, this heart, all evil shed away,
A pulse in the eternal mind, no less
Gives somewhere back the thoughts by England given;
Her sights and sounds; dreams happy as her day;
And laughter, learnt of friends; and gentleness,
In hearts at peace, under an English heaven.
>>360421
The majority of the those sentenced to death were never actually executed.
Granted, some of those who were executed were in no fit position to be "tried". However, the majority of those executed were those who had either committed serious crimes or had repeatedly deserted.
The problem with this subject is that people look at it with the context of today and not what the situation was at the time.
>>360438
>the dead only know one thing; it is better to be alive
self preservation son, fear will drive people to do anything and I don't blame them
>>359954
why not give dan carlin the credit instead of pretending you read this book you motherfucker
I guess people didn't really grasp the idea that this is the first time humans had ever engaged in Industrial Warfare.
They had no idea what was in store.
Outdated tactics in a new war is what made it so horrible from my point of view.
>>360635
can you show me where the /lit/ touched you?
>>360197
Fucking cosplayers...
I bet they thought they were all fucking big heroes. Stupidity is immortal.
>>359094
Russia "backed" Serbia so much they told them to accept the Austrian ultimatum. Which funnily enough they did bar one single point.
France "backed" Russia so much they outright told them not to antagonize Germany, because France simply did not want war.
>>358823
>Germany wasn't any more eager to fight than Russia or France.
In what parallel universe? Because I certainly do not see any historical evidence for Germany doing things such as pulling troops away from their borders, refusing to allow their military to mobilize, and generally do whatever was in their power to not antagonize their potential enemies, including literally telling your allies not to do anything that might provoke a conflict. Things France did.
>>357778
The War of the Bucket, or the War of the Dog.
>>358964
>However, they weren't the singular aggressor.
Yes. Austria was also to blame. If you dig deep enough you could put some blame on the Russians. Though still far removed from that of Germany or Austria.
>France [was]...just as much at fault when it came to escalating the situation.
No. There is no other way of putting it.
Don't take my word for it though. Simply read Clio Deceived by Herwig. Or virtually any WW1 book published in the last 40 or so years - concidentally those published after the German archives were opened and their attempts at manipulating public opinion about the war and hiding their own agenda exposed.
>>359308
NigGermans are currently killing themselves with refugees kek
it's in their nature - if they have no one else to harm they will destroy themselves
why was WWI pointless? How was it any different than any other war?
>>361366
It was a war just to have a war and because it was easier just to have a war
>>361402
by that logic every war is a war just to have a war because you apparently discard things such as motivation, ambitions, reasons, objectives and goals, things WW1 had aplenty
>>358119
Same. I have to say, it's one of my favorite books, though.
>>360688
>his is the first time humans had ever engaged in Industrial Warfare.
not really, the american civil war showed the world what an industrial war looked like. ww1 and the civil war have a lot of similarities, hell, the civil war was big on trench warfare as well.
>>357778
WWI being the most horrible war is a meme. WWII was by far the worst war to ever be witnessed by humanity and greatly overshadows WWI in terms of brutality, especially the eastern and pacific front.
>>363492
the way i see it, ww2 was a massive cluster fuck of murder and i just can't imagine how bad it was
ww1 on the other hand i can put myself in and understand why they all got PTSD. you sit in a disgusting stinking mud trench filled with piss blood and corpses while being constantly bombarded by artillery. i can imagine that scenario in my head and understand that type of misery
ww2 i just can't, it's too big to fathom
>>360259
Something really peaceful about this poem, it flows so well.
>>360575
Aside from those who were shot instantly by their officers as cowards for refusing to go over the top.
>>360259
>The torch; be yours to hold it high.
>If ye break faith with us who die
>We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
>>359842
That's the kind of stuff that made me deeply sad. Old vet with no more friends.
>>365273
Cavalry was widely used in a number of roles during the war that get neglected by the mainstream view, such as screening, scouting, deep raiding, and exploitation.
It was only with the advent of mechanization in the 1930s do we see cavalry actually get replaced.
For more info, see "Scapegoat Arm: Twentieth-Century Cavalry in Anglophone Historiography"
Hitler made it through so must not have been that bad.
>>357778
>and for what?
To keep the Germans out obviously.
Sometimes history really is easy.
>>365882
There's a ton of times where Hitler almost and should have died, he was injured twice I know that for sure
anybody know more about Hitler's role in WW1?
