Christianity (excluding some Protestant sects) seems to lend itself naturally to socialism.
Has there ever been a Christian socialist country, or any kind of Christian socialist movement? I know there were some commie priests in South America, but did they participate in politics?
>>355191
Tony Blair is a member of the Christian Socialist Movement.
>>355191
>Christianity (excluding some Protestant sects) seems to lend itself naturally to socialism.
That's stupid.
Historical Christianity is rooted in hierarchy, stemming as it does out of questions to do with authority and providence. Monarchism therefore has more to do with it than any rabble rousing ideology such as socialism.
>>355191
Not at all, there is multiple writings against socialism as unchristian. Christianity would agree with the heart of the matter, such as your picture would show, but they would disagree on the means specifically.
>what is google
>>355191
The Scandinavian countries, sort off. But that's entirely up to how broadly you want to define "socialism". Once they adopted social democracy, religion kinda withered away in importance among most families and groups.
>>355191
It's not charity if you're compelled to give it, therefor taxes to help the poor are unchristian
>>355191
>>355266
It is/was a thing: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_socialism
'Christian socialismis a form ofreligious socialismbased on the teachings ofJesus of Nazareth. Many Christian socialists believecapitalismto beidolatrousand rooted ingreed, which someChristian denominationsconsider amortal sin.[1]Christian socialists identify the cause of inequality to be the greed that they associate with capitalism.[1]
Christian socialism became a major movement in theUnited Kingdombeginning in the 1960s through the Christian Socialist Movement, since 2013 known asChristians on the Left.[2]
The term also pertains to such earlier figures as the nineteenth century writersFrederick Denison Maurice(The Kingdom of Christ, 1838),John Ruskin(Unto This Last, 1862),Charles Kingsley(The Water-Babies, 1863),Thomas Hughes(Tom Brown's Schooldays, 1857),Frederick James Furnivall(co-creator of theOxford English Dictionary),Adin Ballou(Practical Christian Socialism, 1854), andFrancis Bellamy(aBaptistminister and the author of the United States'Pledge of Allegiance).'
>>355191
Christianity is a Jewish religion and there's a lot of stuff about Jews being able to do usury to nonjews, and a lot of stuff about selling stuff and lending money in the original texts. Then Jesus comes along and says one thing about a rich man not being able to get into heaven and another thing that's usually misquoted. "Money is the root of all evil" is really "love for money is the root of all evil."
It doesn't add up to socialism, it adds up to generosity and seemingly Jewish supremacy. For source on the usury stuff google "Talmud usury". Too tired to do much educating atm, but read a bit of the Talmud and you'll understand its definitely not advocating socialism.
>>355266
>disagree on the means specifically
Explain?
Jesus himself said that we ought to pay taxes.
>>355312
i dont think thats what the anon was talking about
>>355331
Still waiting for explanation.
>>355312
http://w2.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_15051891_rerum-novarum.html
Worth a read.
>>355287
No doubt people do stupid shit. That is not surprising at all.
>>355350
>ask for explanation
>twice
>receive a link
>yeah, whatever, bro
>>355340
basicly socialism wants class war and a lot of bourgeois and fascist deaths
christianity is all about the forgiveness
>>355379
>give a link of one of the most famed and comprehensive documents of Catholic economic teaching ever
>in a discussion about Christian economic teaching
>you're bothered by it
>>355394
>socialism wants war and death
Ah: I see: you are confusing socialism with communism.
>>355395
Dude, I ain't hanging about a fucking Etruscan pottery forum to read Catholic documents.
>>355406
???
the goal of socialism is communism
are you implying borg and nazi deaths are a bad thing?
>>355191
>Christianity (excluding some Protestant sects) seems to lend itself naturally to socialism.
How illiterate do you have to be to come to that conclusion?
Did you see him shit on mercantilism and it's money's influence on religion and suddenly think that mean he's on your side?
Christ literally shits all over materialists throughout his sermons, kicks the shit out of moneylenders and chastises his own disciple for saying that, rather than glorify God, they could sell gifted oils to feed the poor. (the Bible outright calls him a thief-at-heart for it)
What he's concerned about is not the economic situation of the poor man, but the moral condition of the rich and poor man alike.
>>355509
solid point.
>>355509
>For as much as you have cared for the least of these you have cared for me
>If a man asks for your coat, give him your shirt also
>>355191
Christianity was pretty much a progressive movement for most of its existence.
Turn the other cheek, don't sacrifice babies, alms to the poor, rich people don't go to heaven etc etc.
Christianity has lent itself to all kinds of political movements through history.
I don't think you can easily place Christianity on our commonly used political spectrum.
>>355585
Try reading the context of that quote.
Quotemining the Bible will make you think Christ only meant for fellow believers to help each other for example.
>>355603
>Christianity was pretty much a progressive movement for most of its existence.
Still is. Most of the "progressive" Left have just been trying to divorce the ethics of Christianity from it's message of universality without realizing they are one and the same.
>>355703
Your statement reminds me of this
>>355406
>>355419
In Europe, "socialism" usually refers to "reformist socialism", not "revolutionary socialism" like it does in the USA. It doesn't have a "dictatorship of the proletariat" as a step nor does it end with the abolition of classes. It's about successive reforms meant to make society more fair over time, in accordance to the people's will. Social democrats could be understood as somewhat right-leaning or centrist socialists instead of members of the far left. Not that the left-right spectrum is very precise, but it's so popular that I'm bound to use it to convey this message.
>>355706
Not the guy you are replying too but I always saw socialism as using the economy as a tool to create a social and civil society in which people will never be reduced to begging on the street.
>>355703
>Christ was starting an exclusivity club
Yeah, no
>>355705
The latter part is particularly salient. (although mainly because the marxist left has been eroded to the point that they're mainly found on internet forums and the students of fringe academia)
The best example of this feminization I find is in the parable of the Good Samaritan.
Many just immediately opt for the Calvinistic literalism that reads like a shallow humanitarian message because it's an easy sell despite only barely explaining why it's specifically a priest and Levite that would pass him by or why the whole bit about the Inn.
Whereas classic Christianity, from the Church Fathers to mid-Reformation, all believed it to be an allegory of Christ's salvation of humankind.
>>355257
where was the hierarchy in the early church
Here's a podcast about radicals within a small sect of Protestant socialists, the Anabaptists, and the shenanigans they became involved with in Germany during the Middle Ages.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x79MW1gWtJ8
>>355706
>In Europe, "socialism" usually refers to "reformist socialism"
In Europe we don't use socialism but Social Democracy. Socialism is a dirty word used for Soviet agitators and other assorted scum of humanity.
>It's about successive reforms meant to make society more fair over time
It's actually about class collaboration (opposition to class war) and the unity of all to make society better (Volksgemeinschaft before the nazis co-opted it), both which your form of "socialists" call fascism.
Although this basically died with the 68-Left which is why the Social Democrats are no longer the dominant force they once were.
>>355757
>Anabaptists
>socialists
I think you're being quite generous in your definition of socialism here
The only place where explicitly Christian socialism actually had major traction is Latin America, a.k.a. the place where Christianity goes to die.
>>355755
>bishops, deacons, presbyters etc
>>355755
>where was the hierarchy in the early church
Where Christ is literally the hierarch who dictates the truth to those who listen.
Where the disciples are brought especially close to him in a way that excludes those who are not.
Where James and Peter lead their flock.
Where the early patriarchates, with Rome as the first among equals, lays out what is and what is not Christianity.
When the holy texts split up the hierarchy of Angels in Heaven when we are, it is made clear, akin to fallen angels.
>>355771
The sect in question believed in the abolition of private property and the deconstruction of social hierarchy. Not literally socialist since it had yet to be codified as an ideology at that time, I guess, but proto-socialist in a way.
>>355800
In a way, sure, but it's just that socialism as it is thought of today has to do with how it operates in the state, and the Anabaptists never really put their system into effect on a that level
Perhaps calling them proto-utopian communists would be more accurate
>>355283
But was Jesus pro-charity or anti-poverty?
>>355722
>Yeah, no
Hence why quotemining like that is retarded.
>>355287
Fucking based
Christianity is not about Economic policy.
It is "internal". You should donate your money. YOU should help the poor people.
It doesn't say that the state has to redistribute the money of others, but rather that you should donate your own money, out of your own will.
You are not being a good person by giving your money because you are forced to do it. You are being a good person when you give your money because you want to.
>>356164
This.
>>355312
>Jesus himself said that we ought to pay taxes.
You mean "Render unto caesar that which is caesar's..."? Because I'm pretty sure that's just a statement on the separation of the sacred and profane.
>>355191
Look for Liberation Theory, the bunch of South American priests you mentioned.
Some of them even fought in guerrilla warfare, while being priests!
Also, in some countires there were minor Catholic and Left wing parties. Here in Chile, for example the "Izquierda Cristiana" (Christian Left) and MAPU (Movimiento de Acción Popular Unitario) were part of Allende's government
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camilo_Torres_Restrepo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonardo_Boff
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conference_of_Latin_American_Bishops
>>356212
*Liberation Theology
>>356212
They were excommunicated by Benedict XVI.
I'm Brazilian and I don't know how Christian they are, to be frank.
I remember an interview where Leonardo Boff made fun that one of the guys that didn't approve his theology died of cancer.
>>355414
Christianity has nothing against socialism. He posted some long ass document (that isn't dogma, just opinions) because he is afraid of admitting that Christianity and socialism go hand in hand
>>356222
>an interview where Leonardo Boff made fun that one of the guys that didn't approve his theology died of cancer
sauce?
>>356246
I'm looking for it. I was shocked.
>>355266
Depends on what the means are. Jesus was anti-wealth and anti-poverty. He also approved of taxes and hated moneylenders.
High taxation on the wealthy and restrictions on the finance industry, all used to help improve the living standards of poor people, is an incredibly Christian policy.
>>355331
>>356246
Found it.
>Morreu de câncer. E teve uma surpresa imensa, porque ele estava morrendo, eu estava de passagem por Roma e telefonei: "Aqui é o Boff, aquele que o senhor condenou". E ele: "Ninguém me telefona... foi preciso você me telefonar! Me sinto isolado. Queria ser um grande teólogo e não consegui. Me fizeram logo bispo, me chamaram pra cá, não tenho comunidade, celebro sozinho de manhã e me sinto desprezado pelos meus irmãos dominicanos". Aí começou a chorar. Não perdoei: "Quem é o fraco agora? Mas não quero fazer o que fez comigo! Quero enxugar as suas lágrimas". E ele: "Boff, vamos ficar amigos, conheço umas pizzarias aqui perto do Vaticano...". (risos)
He died of cancer. And there was an immense surprise, as he was dying and I was in Rome and called him "Here is Boff, the one you excommunicated". And he said: "No one calls me... it had to be you to call me! I feel lonely. I wanted to be a great teologian and couldn't. They made me a Bishop, summoned me here, I have no community, celebrate by myself in the morning and feel despised by my Dominican brothers". And then he started to cry. And so I said * : "Who is the weak one now? But I will not do what you did to me. I will wipe your tears". And he said "Boff, let us become friends, I know a few pizzerias close to the Vatican..." (laughs).
* The correct translation would be "I didn't forgive".
I don't know how reliable is his version of the facts.
>>355419
>the goal of socialism is communism
>>356290
But he's not laughing at his death (not that I give a shit about Catholicism or Boff btw)
>>356212
Fucking badass
>>356222
But Pope Francis supports them.
>>356164
So, by that logic, we shouldn't have laws that disallow you from marrying someone of the same gender?
>>356175
"Sacred versus profane" is a non-biblical doctrine developed after centuries of overanalytic autism. That dichotomy is not present in the teachings of Jesus and should never be used to interpret Christ's views.
>>356362
kek no. If Francis actually gave his outright support for those degenerate marxists he would be declared anti-pope. He's been trying to redeem some of the theosophical underpinnings of their retardation to help with his Peronist agenda in South America.
