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Why is our society so hedonistic and individualistic? Is it because of western philosophy, a side effect of wealth or is capitalism to blame?
>>352057
I believe that the natural state of human beings is that of hedonism and individualism until forced to change.
>>352069
I beg to differ. See, here in Europe a lot of people have started forming extremist movements, such as the growth of nationalistic parties, or even like here in Sweden, feminist parties. It is because a lot of people feel like hedonism doesn't do it anymore. That is also why I believe NEETs are often nazis and politically active - NOT because they are bitter, sad or alone - but because they just don't get any pleasure out of eating, sleeping or gaming (or whatever they enjoy doing) anymore. They need a purpose. If they cannot find a purpose in life, they will make one. Most people are driven by money, others, often those who already have enough money, will find something else to drive them. This is also why it's mainly upper-middle class girls who are feminists - the other girls don't care, because they strive to make money.
>>352069
I could agree with this.
Bonobos and Chimpanzees are our closest living relatives.
Both I would say are pretty damn hedonistic in different ways.
It makes sense that people would be similar. If there are no outside pressures for survival people would gravitate towards debauchery.
The United States being a large frontier with many laws allowing for squatting meant that individualism was all that survived.
*autofellates*
>>352057
Economic excess, you goof. If you can afford to, why wouldn't you?
>>352097
As I said in the second post, yes, possibly. I still believe a lot of people will fall back into the same patterns we had in our survivals days eventually. People will be bigoted, racist, extremist and they'll try to find an identity (tribe) to affiliate with. Right now, more people than ever before quit highschool, especially young boys. Boys tend to be driven more than girls - but why keep the drive if they don't have anything to work for? Why strive for greatness if they already have money?
Anecdote: I am an upper class white male. Almost every single male I know, especially back in highschool, did some sort of drugs to compensate for the emptiness in their lives. Nowadays, half of them have turned into diehard neo-nazis (in disguise of course) or just embraced the hedonistic lifestyle. As said, some people just aren't satisfied with the system we have, which in turn turns them into extremists who seek an identity.
>>352096
Those movements are small as a percentage of total population.
Everyone is at least a self denying egoist
>whiny marxist detected
Matetialism is cancer but you are wotse
>>352165
Who said I was a capitalist faggot?
>>352201
A marxist* faggot I mean
>>352209
You sound like one, for starters.
>>352228
Pointing out that our society is hedonistic and individualistic does not mean I embrace collective ideas.
>>352057
Capitalism promotes greed and hedonism as virtues.
>>352057
hedonism and individualism aren't necessarily bad things.
Lack of respect and lack of empathy are worse, and that's the problem our society has, were too stuck up our own asses to care that we could be making someone elses life much more difficult for no good reason.
>>352270
Explain
>>352304
By encouraging the poor, and middle class to "compete", the wealthy have conditioned them into a mindset that they should only care for themselves and their own gains. By selling the idea that wealth is attainable by anyone through hard work and determination they turn the classes that should be allies into foes ensuring that they remain poor and the productivity never falters.
Additionally by conditioning these people they have created convenient distractions from the fact that the system is completely dominated by a very small number wealthy people. With the dangers that come with an educated and united poor and middle class, they have come to control and destroy the very possibility of them escaping this system. By extension this has made a revolution or even degradation of capitalism, arguably, impossible.
>>352057
In my humble opinion I think it's because there's no real struggle in people's lives.
The west had it hard for so long with colonizing and the constant warfare that a sense of togetherness, a common goal and a sense of purpose was practically thrust upon society. Everyone was responsible for their own, because there was so little to go around. Forming relationships with other people was instrumental because of the constant danger one faced economically, physically and legally at all times.
At this point there is no "failure", government will take over and give you a check, but even if it doesn't come to that, you'll get some cushy office job that's boring but it pays well, and if you have at most one or two kids or stay single you'll have more than enough money. There's no reason to form relationships with your neighbors anymore, there's no reason to get to know anybody anymore and there's nothing tangible to fight anymore.
I feel like that's where social justice really stems from, not the idea that a certain group of people are oppressed, or that equality isn't equal enough, but more of a desire to be a victim. They'll search within themselves for something that they can claim is victimized, and if they can't find something, they'll make something up, create a part of themselves that they think can be oppressed.
I don't even really see SJWs anymore as crazy progressive nutheads anymore, they're really hedonists, and what they indulge in is a feeling of fighting
>>352304
Buying shit makes the economy grow
>>352057
>communist actually get butthurt at people not starving and not being hive minded robots
fucking top kek
>>352339
Explain how that's only possible in capitalism. Market socialism could have the near similar conditions and results.
>>352362
We must recommit society to nationalism. Hitler may be dead but his ideas live on!
OP here - it's easy for everyone to lead this to capitalism vs socialism because I used the words "individualistic" and "capitalism" in my post. Why yes, obviously there capitalism does encourage consumption, but at the same time in socialism, we would still have hedonism minus the individualistic part.
Hedonism is a side effect of lack of struggle. Like other posters in the thread says, I believe that people try to make up struggles nowadays to blow off some steam and satisfy their primal needs, that is identifying with a collective and fighting for a cause.
>>352340
More on topic, I think the hedonism originates from this idea of being defined by things instead of actions. Food consumption in the lens of hedonism is an entirely different story, I'm really talking more about status symbols taking over the modern western peoples' lives. This is somewhat the fault of capitalism, but also is heavily based on the fact that many of us are too rich or too gullible for our own good, and one of the two has to change to combat this hedonistic trend.
The individualism that's rampant in today's society really originates with what I stated in my original post, the fact that you really don't need human relationships to get by anymore. People have decided not to "fit in" because "fitting in" doesn't matter like it used to. Deviant behavior is so little known outside of our modern world because there was a real survival element to discouraging behavior like pedophilia, homosexual acts and other strange things. The fact is that the nuclear one wife one husband family was the best social unit for western society, and so anything that threatened the social unit was discouraged heavily.
But, like I said, there's no need for that anymore so people are more willing to engage in deviant behavior.
>>352387
G O N D O L A
>>352396
What?
>>352405
Gondola
>>352356
I don't think that it's entirely a capitalist issue. However I do think that the root cause of it is from capitalism and how much of an impact it has had in the past few centuries.
Capitalism is very useful for nations that are transitioning from traditional economies, but when the few exploit the many, and they hoard vast amounts of wealth, they again can condition not only their fellow countrymen but their neighbors, and with the massive strides in communication in the past few decades, nations across the world.
America is a very good example of this. While the early U.S. was by no means poor, industrialization rapidly grew the economy for several decades with nearly no government intervention. When the market crashed and the Great Depression came about, many people started to question whether or not free-market capitalism was sustainable, and whether or not the alternatives of fascism and communism, (already on the rise and seemingly successful in Europe) would be more advantageous to all of society. But, with the social programs FDR enacted and the advent of war with Nazi Germany of Japan, the economy was revitalized and stronger than ever.
From 1945 onwards the U.S. and USSR struggled back in forth, not so much because of the differences in economic systems but because of the rising importance of geopolitical control. Both sides of the "cold war" used propaganda and proxy wars as a way to reinforce control, and the sheer ruthlessness that a capitalist war machine is capable of was very much shown here. Through accumulating more and more control over the world the Bourgeoisie in the U.S. were capable of conditioning not only America and it's satellites that "greed is good" but it's rivals as well, ultimately culminating in the fall of or capitalist corruption of communist states.
To make a long post short, by controlling the "memes of production" capitalism has been effective in training the world to repeat whatever keeps the wealthy safe.
>>352387
I wouldn't say the only reason the nuclear family was a big focus in western society (then) was because it worked, but also because it is things such as tradition and culture which keep us together. Most people have a sort of animalistic bias towards people who don't fit in, and rightfully so in many cases. The reason it evolved was to keep people from doing things outside of the ordinary, but also to keep people united. This brings us to the subject of religion, where the true reason religion is so widespread isn't because of "people needed an explanation", but rather because it just works. Religion creates community and creates morals that you can't escape from. Even if you could get away with stealing a watermelon, you wouldn't do it because God is going to punish you.
People will always do what they can get away with, but in our secular, individual-focus society, the only thing stopping people are laws. Thankfully we have better police to compensate for it.
>>352057
J_ _ S
In ancient and medieval times, we had few resources and disposable income, so a moral code restricting excessive consumption was necessary. These days, our productivity has increased to meet up with our desires, so the old asceticism is kinda arbitrary.
>>352444
>people actually discussing something for once
>some /pol/ stormfag comes in and stems trips
End your life
Anyone else get stuck thinking about how determinism effects individuality?
It doesn't destroy it, I don't think, but I believe it gives the individual the compulsion to be proud of what has enabled and preceded their own achievement.
The idea of individual exceptionalism cannot defy causality and deterministic logic. But it doesn't destroy the pride of the individual in their moment of achievement either, but necessitates their pride be spread out among everyone that has enabled it.
>>352431
The idea that free market capitalism protects the rich is a false one. Government intervention is what protects the rich and stifles competition. Free markets have the small business growing and beating the large business all the time.
+1 for philosophy and economic reasoning on /his/
>>352519
Determinism destroys individuality. Kierkegaard correctly defined determinism as only necessity and the absence of possibility.
I am a Muslim, but Kierkegaard and the Koran and many other texts regarding the existential impact of God in your life is truly amazing.
Honestly, it really is that simple: determinism is a hellish existence.
>>352519
And that last couple lines is exactly correct, in my opinion.
>>352057
because the material and economic terrain of our society favors it
>>352519
I don't think determinism is necessarily anti-individual, but I think there's a level of determinism that basically asserts that individual achievements shouldn't be celebrated because they aren't overcoming some kind of obstacle because the outcome was already determined, meaning there was no obstacle in the way of achievement, or that the obstacle was insurmountable, also nullifying the achievement.
I'm assuming you mean Democritus' version of determinism, or "atoms in the void" determinism.
>>352519
Read Hume. Determinism is necessary for the phenomenon of free will, because it means our deepest sentiment and desires determine our final decision. If not, it'd just be random.
>>352618
Determinism is defined as everything being completely determined by external forces.
Part two of Pynchon's Gravity's Rainbow is an excellent way to interpret determinism. Not even kidding.
>>352339
There is nothing but arbitrary lines of drawing "the wealthy" and "the middle class" and "the poor"
Marxism and capitalism are equally subversive to society.
Marxism just loves to deny any aspect of Human nature.
>>352057
>>352096
>NOT because they are bitter, sad or alone - but because they just don't get any pleasure out of eating, sleeping or gaming (or whatever they enjoy doing) anymore. They need a purpose.
the lassitude from a lack of purpose is pure hedonism. hedonism is about the identification with the ration pleasure/pain.
>>352571
people have created this terrain precisely because they are hedonistic beforehand.
hedonism is
-the belief that there is a self which is relevant
-the choice to identity the self with the desires which are expected to alleviate pains or even to bring pleasures
-the choice to identify with the pains [which turns, after identification, into suffering] and with the pleasures [which turn, after identification, into happiness/joy]
if you think in terms and suffering and pleasure, you remain hedonistic.
once you understand that pleasures are just as irrelevant than pains, you are no longer an hedonist.
Also, it is foolish to try to impose another doctrine on people, since people always believe that they wish to be free, but only be free from suffering, not from pleasures which remain seen as relevant by them.
People always try to do what they want to do. the western philosophy thanks to the classical thinkers is nothing but a legal conventions [backed by a scientific convention] to structure hedonism.
Very few people are not hedonistic, even in our so-called free society. Very few people are stoic, very few people are epicurist, very few people are ascetic, very few people are self-mortification [=extreme ascetic]
>>352664
even when religion was the tradition, very few people were monastic and most remained hedonistic. [therefore most people were not religious at all].
Most liberals today, non-religious , anti-religious always claim that religions have a problem with desires, but they claim this only because they do not understand that there is something else in life than hedonism. and of course, an hedonist will claim that non-hedonistic doctrines are bad, sterile.
the best part is that the ration pleasure/pain can be greatly improve through meditation.
you have two hedonism:
-the materialistic hedonism [possession, cars, drugs, usual entertainment]
-the spiritual hedonism where basically you do meditations [the famous jhanas] to reach bliss
non-hedonistic doctrines do not tell how to stop being an hedonist because we have not found their books, but the dharma does tell us how to it. even in buddhism, if somebody must remain a hedonist, typically due from fear of being something else, he is encouraged to do the jhanas.
Even the christians say that wordy possessions will not be efficient to reach pleasures and the monastic life brings higher pleasures.
but the point is that most people people are not on earth to be higher hedonist. they do not want to do, or they give up easily on the higher path. Lower hedonism is the only answer to reach the most people.
THis is the explicit purpose of the technology and science since the enlightenment. All that we build is to ease our pains and improve our pleasures. And thanks to the liberty à la Human rights+technology, other people are free to abide by another doctrine .
>>352057
>>352432
>People will always do what they can get away with, but in our secular, individual-focus society, the only thing stopping people are laws.
hmmm
>Machiavelli observes that “one can say this in general of men: they are ungrateful, disloyal, insincere and deceitful, timid of danger and avid of profit…. Love is a bond of obligation which these miserable creatures break whenever it suits them to do so; but fear holds them fast by a dread of punishment that never passes” (Machiavelli 1965, 62; translation altered).
obviously it wasn't working in his time either...then again machiavelli was cynical af and florence had a whole world of civic ritual
>>352681
Machiavelli knew how people ticked. A good read, and he actually recommends you be a likeable person in the end.
>>352680
He actually makes some funny videos.
I'm annoyed he's so edgy on twitter.
It's more likely he's just drunk and sad about being irrelevant.
>>352664
>people have created this terrain precisely because they are hedonistic beforehand
i think you give too much credit to human beings' power over the economic/political systems they inhabit
capitalism didn't triumph because people were like 'i want to work 60+ hours and never see my family so my kids can all have iphones in their fat, overfed hands.' capitalism triumphed because it was more rewarding to more of it's participants than other arrangements.
>>352698
>>352664
as well, it is not exactly correct to say that the atomization and shallow self interest so easily seen in our society is common to all human societies. such behavior patterns would not result in high survivability for, say, nomadic huntergatherers and so in those societies we see generalized reciprocity and a high degree of filial piety.
The question is - how do we solve this? Materialism and individualism are not going to make people happy in the long run, which is why like many stated in this thread people turn to alternatives, new age, political extremes, etc.
My opinion is fairly conservative, and that is to impose conservative moral standards and make religion in focus more. I am not religious myself, but it gives the common man a moral code to follow. It is a necessary evil.
The removal of a pretense of purpose. Whether that pretense is God, communism, or whatever, it staves off degeneracy.
Western culture has been individualistic since Roman times. Relatively, of course. Individualism has grown larger in recent years.
>>352057
commie pls
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_Soviet_Union
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/world/asia/us-soldiers-told-to-ignore-afghan-allies-abuse-of-boys.html?_r=0
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/dec/07/wikileaks-cables-saudi-princes-parties
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Triangle_(Southeast_Asia)
>>352772
I don't know that we need to 'impose' conservative moral standards so much as we should just celebrate our greatness more.
A lot of our modern culture is us whipping ourselves over guilt for the past, often undeserved guilt. We should be celebrating our countries, our principles, our pasts, our ancestors, our art, and so on and so on. Make people feel like they're a part of something bigger again.
The added benefit of this is that we don't need to fool ourselves in any way. We can study history, science, literature etc. fully, and merely take the view that we should celebrate and emulate successes, and acknowledge and learn from failures
>>352874
>implying I am a commie
>projecting just so that you can spam your epic /pol/ links
Nice strawman, go back to /pol/ and stay there. Nobody likes you.
>>352917
>nytimes
>guardian
>wikipedia
>/pol/ links
fine here have some mainstream ones
http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/22/asia/afghanistan-boy-abuse-us-military/
http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/07/world/asia/opium-un-southeast-asia/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7062600.stm
>>352930
What part of strawman don't you understand? First off, you're assuming things.
Secondly, you're not contributing to the subject, you're strawmaning so you can shit on commies.
>>352935
>facts are strawmaning
>facts not proving that everyone's an asshole
top banter lad
>>352942
I'm not saying it's false, I'm saying you're an idiot for using it in an argument against... Who? Why? This isn't about how much you hate commies, it was about why society is like it is today. Stay on the subject or go back to /int/ where you belong.
>>352057
>Marxists ITT claiming socialism is any less materialistic
Literally all of Marx views on history were material. He completely removed the human equivalent from historical perspectives and claimed only economic classes as the appropriate lens through which to view human achievement. Marxist history is literally called the Material Theory of history. His proposed "economic" system is no less obsessed with material values.
To answer you question OP it's due mostly to social atomization as a consequence of the industrial revolution and the individualist cultures that grow in that environment. We depend on thousands if not millions of complete strangers to keep our lives on track with the same level of comfort to which we are accustomed so it's not surprising we have stopped viewing ourselves as part of a community. The average man in this environment is capable of no more than hedonism as a general rule.
>>7696948
Physics is an attempt to make sense of our socially constructed reality and is itself a social construct. As stated earlier, there are no facts, only opinions and intersubjective agreements among people who socially construct reality in similar but subtly different ways. Other people socially construct reality in radically different ways. Christians believe in a God and so they have the physics of God which is also known as metaphysics. Mathematics is a social construct that attempts to describe abstract objects.
>>352987
you implied only western countries have vice in your post your pic and your replies
I wished to show you wrong
Reminder that the liberals are so hedonistic that they live through sex in private and public life and theat they feel entitled to denigrate christianity, but no other religion.
>>352996
>Mathematics is a social construct that attempts to describe abstract objects.
indeed,
ke the case of the continuum hypothesis of set theory. We can prove that this proposition is not decidable. We can also prove that both the continuum hypothesis and its negation are consistent with standard set theory in the sense that if we were to add either the hypothesis or its negation to our axioms, then the resulting theory would be consistent if set theory is consistent.
In this sense, we can work around the road block and explore a set theory where the continuum hypothesis is true ( or false ).
The axioms of any formal theory are generally taken to be self-evident truths. This is because we accept that some statements are true for no reason at all. Similarly, the continuum hypothesis, or any other conjecture which is not decidable, may be true for no reason whatsoever. However, in the case of the continuum hypothesis, its truth is clearly not self-evident.
mathematics cannot even solve some questions related to mathematics
>>352667
i like this! doesn't this also explain why everything we do is affirmative/positive? through such institutions we are coerced to constantly produce. we are compelled to constantly liberate ourselves also. religion, in this light, seems to be only a scapegoat in which one is told to 'free' themselves from when in fact the only reason they feel obliged to do this is because they are headlessly propelled by hedonism without any second guesses. religion is just a fun little obstacle maintained by this pointless game.
>>352381
This argumentation is simply a result of your negative view of what you call "SJWs".
Lets say that SJWs are doing good for a second. >>
>People have more time.
>People want to stop the relative injustices they see in their surroundings.
>People act.
There you go.
This puts you in a negative light since you are the hedonist yourself, posting on 4chan instead of going out and taking part in some movement to better the lives of people.
Obviously you simply make those people out to be evil in some way, or spoiled or bored while in fact it is you who are this way.
>>354913
Its pretty clear to me that many of the posters here are simply projecting their purposeless lives of hedonistic pleasure onto others.
People are expressing their own inner ideas about the meaninglessness of society and relationships.
This is not strange since this is 4chan. This is a community for people who are unable to properly make connections in real life with people.
I am sorry for you and it truly is sad seeing people unwillingly exposing their inner problems like this but do not reverse things and make sociable and socially conscious people be the bad guys because they have a goal.
Yes you lead empty lives and want to pretend having goals in contemporary society is bullshit(a lot of you seem to be unconscious of their own actual opinions on here) but not everyone thinks this way and those that are able to sustain meaningful human relationships want to help others.
>>352057
it is a result of our culture's ultimately unfounded revolt against all forms of authority. charles taylor in a sympathetic register explains its origins here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_losVdiARc
but it "is simply the natural gravity of the human spirit, the line of least resistance, religion in its fallen state."
"The new paganism is the virtual divinization of man, the religion of man as the new God. One of its popular slogans, repeated often by Christians, is "the infinite value of the human person." Its aim is building a heaven on earth, a secular salvation. Another word for the new paganism is humanism, the religion that will not lift up its head to the heavens but stuffs the heavens into its head."
"This has all changed. The new paganism is situational and pragmatic. It says we are the makers of moral values. It not only finds the moral law written in the human heart but also by the human heart. It acknowledges no divine revelation, thus no one's values can be judged to be wrong."
"This is really polytheism—many gods, many goods, many moralities. No one believes in Zeus and Apollo and Neptune any more. (I wonder why: Has science really refuted them—or is it due to total conformity to fashion, supine submission to newspapers?) But moral relativism is the equivalent of the old polytheism. Each of us has become a god or goddess, a giver of law rather than receiver."
http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/religions_newpaganism.htm
>>352057
Unlike almost every other society ever, we have enough stuff to use more than we need, so we do.
>>352057
>Why is our society so hedonistic and individualistic?
Because humans are hedonistic. Remember living with massive amounts of wealth and access to food is a fairly recent phenomenon, most of the time people were either starving or close to starving in history unless they were in the top 1% of society.
It makes sense that humans get a dopamine rush from eating a lot of food, and doing pleasurable acts like sex, when you get it very very rarely, but when you can get it any time you want, the dopamine rush can have negative consequences.
>>352057
because we can be hedonistic and individualistic
Any society that can be hedonistic and individualistic will inevitably become so
>>355418
No my friend.
Any society that wants to become hedonistic will and any society that doesnt wont.
You were first taught to cherish hedonism through the society you lived in and only later did you develop an idea about human nature as being based on this.
>>355507
What societies aren't hedonistic?
Chinese emperor and their hundreds of courtesans, Shahs and their harems, Aztec kings and their few dozen wives, the European king and his promised one?
Because the West has lived in a such a period of comfort and ease that we have no reason to fight for our virtues or ideals. Instead, it's much easier to live as atomised, self-interested beings.
Don't be fooled into thinking that we're individualistic. In fact, we're very conformist in the West. What society is experiencing now is "atomisation". The same people just separated through paranoia, hedonism and ignorance.
It's a common symptom of a dying empire and the only way to break it is to clean human nature through war.
>>355547
Cleanse sounds better.
>>352466
>asceticism
I think this comes from ignorance. How many people think happiness is found on sex? That happiness is found on becoming rich and living like a millionaire?
Our society decided to ignore the wisdom of the Greeks and this is the result.
>>352057
Most people toil their days away with work to improve their life through comforts and hedonism.
We only need shelter from the cold at night and food in our belly to survive, but people want more than that.
not going to let this slide
>>352057
“The Whites have carried to these (colonial) people the worst that they could carry: the plagues of the world: materialism, fanaticism, alcoholism, and syphilis. Moreover, since what these people possessed on their own was superior to anything we could give them, they have remained themselves... The sole result of the activity of the colonizers is: they have everywhere aroused hatred.”
>>352057
human nature
look what happens to every country that tries to be communist, just ends in corruption and an even greater disparity between the rich and poor
>>352340
I couldn't agree more. Yet the more new forms of justification (SJWs are one) are created, the less it remains a possibility for things to actually happen; one doesn't walk two miles to buy a new bag of sugar when he's got aspartame for the next coffee.
>>352694
He's actually pretty relevant. I don't know a more relevant comedian. His twitter persona is weird, but obviously just a place he uses to rant and promote things.
On Cinema is my current favorite comedy thing so I'm biased.
Man does not live long enough to care for laws.
How exactly do you distinguish hedonism from any other human venture aside from kneejerk reactions, such as personal disgust?
Hedonism and individualism are words losers use for people they don't like who are having more fun than them
>>352057
>hedonistic and individualistic?
Because of cultural marxism.
>>352057
because even when you're poor you're still your only ally...
>>352057
This has been questioned before.
Technically there are no absolute answers as many non-western societies are also becoming hedonistic. But there are a few universal factors.
>>352432
>because God is going to punish you.
Not really given the role of Gods forgiveness just confess and say your hail maries
>>358419
> Baudrillard.jpg
Western society have always been hedonistic to some degree. The only thing worth arguing is that they've became more hedonistic.
Its impossible not to be a hedonist, the only thing that has changed is how people chose to pursue this.
>>352527
The rich protect themselves. Being rich, they have more means to protect themselves than the poor have to overthrow them. A ma and pa operation doesn't beat a big strong corporation because of the economies of scale.
The only thing that makes tech start-ups and other such enterprises likely to occasionally reach the top, displacing the old hegemons, is because we have a system of law that respects and enforces respect of intellectual property.
