So is it true that Japan would have been pretty much unstoppable had they not entered war with America?
why would you think that? no
Also I read somewhere that originally banzai charges were actually well coordinated sneak attacks where they sneak up on enemy behind lines and yell banzai only at the last minute as they stab their swords into the enemy?
There was Russia too...
They should have kept a defensive position in regards to Russia and just stop for a while their conquests.
>>342696
They didn't fight until literally the last few months of the war, after Soviets got spooked by American advancements towards Japan.
Japan invaded and took over half of China, Russia's ally, and Russia did jackshit against Japan.
Well if they were stopped by America there's no reason to think they couldn't have been stopped by somebody else. Namely the Soviet Union.
But no they certainly had vulnerabilities.
The only difference would've been that borders would look very different in Asia today most likely.
>>342683
No. Banzai charges have always been a suicidal thing. It was considered an honorable way to die rather than living with the humiliation of being captured. It's part of the code of bushido though it was really radicalized by imperial Japan.
>>342713
So there was no tactical planning at all behind banzai charges? Not even before Japan started taking heavy losses?
>>342675
No.
In 1941, they were desperate for oil to keep up their commitments in China and their war economy. They had two choices, climb down and withdraw from China and perhaps lose all influence outside of Korea, Formosa and Manchukuo or go to war with America. Once oil sanctions were passed, Japan knew it was either war or capitulation.
>>342706
And Russia was already preparing a full scale invasion of Japan.
That's why Truman rushed to dropping the bombs on Japan, forcing them to surrender before that could happen.
Japan was already working on a surrender because they were fucking terrified of the Soviet union invading the home islands
>>342706
>China, Russia's ally
uhhh... no?
>>342724
But this is all after America got involved in the war.
If America never got involved, Russia wouldn't have made a move on Japan either.
>>342728
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
>>342724
>full scale invasion of Japan.
I doubt the Soviets would have actually done it. I hear this more and more as a justification for the nuclear bombings, but I don't think the Soviets ever really considered a scramble for Japan. They had no treaty commitments to do so.
>>342731
>chiang kai-shek
>Russian ally
Check out the Shanghai massacre in 1927- the Soviets loathed China at the time, and barely helped Mao even when he begged for it. Hence the eventual Soviet-Sino split
>>342683
You might the be thinking of a common Asian infantry tactic where a small force would sneak up on enemy positions as close as possible and then attempt a break through on that section of the front, if successful more infantry units would follow behind them and pour into enemy territory.
The Banzai charges were fast, mass infantry assaults on one section of the enemy position, and like WW1, met with machine guns and defeated rather easily. However on the Pacific Islands were large open spaces were hard to come by the Banzai attacks were actually quite successful, if you could surprise your enemy and get pretty close to them.
>>342719
Banzai charges are a literally last hoorah to inflict as much damage as possible while dying.
I'm sure there are cases where stealth was used to get as close as possible to the enemy before charging just to inflict more damage but it wasn't any sort of doctrine.
Its more of a case by case basis. Some did, some just ran right at machine gun fire like they did during the battle of port Arthur.
>>342724
Do you really think that soviets, who had no experience for amphibious assaults, who didn't had landing craft, with fanatic japs defending every inch of Japanese islands, had even a chance of naval invasion?
>>342739
That's why Chiang Kai-shek's son Chiang Ching-kuo studied in Soviet Russia and remained there, even got married to a Russian woman and helped foster Russian-Chinese relations during the 1930s right?
>>342675
The entire reason they were waging war in the first place is because of a lack of resources. The same resources that allow them to wage war.
So no.
>>342748
>resources
>muh resources
They had all the resources they needed in China and southeast Asia.
>>342747
Literally at the time that was happening, kai-shek he was head of state in Tawian, itching to take back the Chinese mainland.
Ching-Kuo isn't Kai-Shek.
>>342755
>Literally at the time that was happening, kai-shek he was head of state in Tawian, itching to take back the Chinese mainland.
>1930s
>1930s
>Taiwan
Are you fucking retarded?
>>342731
>a poster!
>that means an alliance!
>>342752
They didn't was the point. They needed the oil in the European South-East Asian colonies to sustain their commitments and war economy.
That was the Japanese war strategy, to take the colonies, use the resources and essentially hold onto them from the European counter assault until they could come to a treaty giving them an empire. But that meant war with America, so there was no scenario where they could pursue both peace with America and empire.
>>342758
Oh, I thought that was after 49.
Either way, Kai-shek was clearly anti-communist. His son doing a course abroad doesn't change that.
>>342760
>But that meant war with America, so there was no scenario where they could pursue both peace with America and empire.
But why would it mean war with America?
America had nothing to do with European colonies. In fact, America conducted trade with Japan right up to the eve of war.
>>342675
The only reason Japan was unstoppable to begin with was because they were fighting even shittier armies. It takes real talent to struggle against the per-Barbarossa Red Army on the ass end of Russia.
>>342760
>Either way, Kai-shek was clearly anti-communist. His son doing a course abroad doesn't change that.
Are you really politically dense or what?
His son is studying in Soviet Russia of all countries. During the 1930s. When Chiang was purging the commies.
Basically the Soviets was keep his son hostage.
>>342767
Khalkin Gol was after Barbossa you useless semen dispenser
>>342775
>Khalkin Gol was after Barbossa you useless semen dispenser
ummm...
>>342775
>1939
>"Barbossa"
Go to bed Jack Sparrow.
>>342766
America, essentially, would never allow Japan to dominate South-East Asia. Hence why the U.S put sanctions when Japan seized French Indo-China. That and American possessions, such as the Philippines, stood in the way of Japanese colonial efforts, and the U.S pacific fleet posed an unacceptable risk to the Japanese navy.
>>342772
So the Soviets have a hostage. This doesn't mean the Kai-shek China had a wartime alliance with the Soviet Union.
>>342780
YOU'LL NEVER CATCH ME BLACK PEARL
>>342760
Japan attacked the US because they wanted to take the British colonies in SEA and assumed that the USA would retaliate. In fact, there's no evidence the US ever would have attacked them over that territory. At least, from what I can remember.
>>342887
It was more then just British, Indonesia (Dutch) and Indo-China were also prime Japanese targets, as was the American Philippines.
They had ambitions which were squarely anti-American. It goes more into ideology then just square strategic vision- they believed in a Asia free of European influence, and that included America. They didn't really distinguish between Euro colonies and American Phillipines. And internal politics dictated war with America as well, the Japanese navy was a powerful faction in the cabinet government that made up the Japanese government, and they wanted direct confrontation with the American navy to secure pre-eminence in the Pacific.
>>342713
>radicalized
not what that word means senpai
>>342928
It's radical Shinto
Tennohekaihu ackbar
>>342938
>radical shinto
Someone needs to do a paper on Shintos use's by Japan during the war, it would be interesting
>>342969
http://www.hellodamage.com/top/2011/07/13/japan-book-review-7-japans-holy-war-by-walter-skya/
ALREADY
BEEN
DUN
BEFO
>>342743
>what are Kuril Islands
>>342713
>It's part of the code of bushido
The thing about bushido is that it's just as much bullshit as knightly codes of chivalry, or any code of honor really. No one ever really lived after it.
>>343512
Samurai did live by certain codes of honor but the word bushido wasn't a thing until rather recently.
And even then it wasnt as extreme as people make it out to be. The whole ritual suicide thing wasn't that common and only particularly used as a political tool during the edo period.
Samurai running away or becoming ronin was far more common which is probably why the cases where they didn't are so venerated. There were still cases of course but they were rare.
The concept of extreme bushido was generated by imperial japan during world war 2.
The Japanese were already losing every second battle in China by 44. Once Russia would have gotten involved they would've been fucked.
>>342887
FDR guaranteed the independence of the Dutch colonies to their government in exile.
Now, it wasn't legally binding, Congress didn't make that assurance, but it was a pretty publicly drawn line in the sand.
No, by 1940 the IJA was in a quagmire in China because the country wasn't ready for total war. This in turn led to confronting the Red Army in Manchuria for the "Expand North" plan and was a huge embarassment, which led to the "Expand South" plan for the showdown with the US and UK which was a total catastrophe.
From Japan's viewpoint, their only option was to quickly seize supplies - oil, mostly - that the US had denied them. In a way, Japan was headed for disaster ever since it had acquired Korea after the Russo-Japanese War.
The thing about Japan is that they were publicly announcing to the world that they were a dangerous unchecked warmonger that wouldn't stop unless decisively beaten. It was fine when all they were doing is thrashing an impoverished destitute country like China and I don't think most of the world would have interfered if they had concentrated on the land they owned and gone into a defensive stance against Russia. Of course this would have never happened, but had the politics in pre-WWII Japan magically changed overnight they could have saved a significant part of their little empire by just staying still sharpening their partially obsolete military while Germany and Russia fought it out. Oil sanctions wouldn't have happened if Japan wasn't trying to invade everything in sight.
>>342740
>You might the be thinking of a common Asian infantry tactic where a small force would sneak up on enemy positions as close as possible and then attempt a break through on that section of the front, if successful more infantry units would follow behind them and pour into enemy territory
You're thinking of Chinese PLA tactics in the Korean War. The Japanese never developed tactics like that, "banzai" was always last ditch effort to destroy American beachheads and the tactic was largely abandoned by Peleliu because it was pointless. The Japanese realized that it was far more efficient to conduct defense in depth and fight a war of attrition.
Lumping Chinese/Japanese infantry tactics together and calling it "Banzai" is like calling Soviet infantry tactics "URAAAAAAA" charges.
>>342675
No. The war in China had reached a stalemate long before Pearl Harbor. They stopped making any progress, and China getting American aid just made things worse. It was unsustainable, and they would have had to make considerable concessions and give up a majority of the land they had occupied.
>>345587
I will never understand why "give up a majority of the land they had occupied" was such a horrible thing for all those empires of the past. You can't be seriously expecting to gobble up a country ten times the size of yours and be able to hold onto it. It seems much more reasonable to grab a smaller portion you can actually control and hold onto it for good than to grab an immense blob and collapse two decades later. I can't believe the japanese high command was retarded enough to think they could control a country 25 times their size and with 15 times their population.
Japan was basically the isis of the early 20th century.
>>345619
The war in China wasn't well organized at all. Just like the IJA was acting independent of the government, you had generals and officers going pretty much rogue, with only a semblance of an action plan. And just like the Nazi leadership, the Japanese did believe they could pull it all off because they were the superior race, so to speak, and they became overconfident because of easy early wins. Japanese stagnation in China is a lot like the stagnation in WWI, and the failure of Operation Barbarossa. They simply overestimated themselves and underestimated who they were going against.
>tfw Karafuto will never again be part of Japan
>>342719
Depends on where the war you where.
And who was in charge.
I still think Uber did the best rendition of how it worked.
If you where fucked, a suicide charge can be worth a lot. Because tanks, boats and artillery is valuable in war.
Otherwise it would just be a priority list of who was willing to go for hardcore charges.
>>345674
To be fair, China was mired in a civil war, divided amongst warlords and basically the Brendan Fraser of Asia. The optimistic timeline of a 3 week or 3 month war wasn't /that/ far-fetched.
What the Japanese underestimated was Chinese nationalism being able to somewhat offset terrible KMT leadership.
>>342781
>America, essentially, would never allow Japan to dominate South-East Asia.
?
>>342675
They would've at some point be beat back by the Chinese communists, they'd probably have an empire through the cold war consisting of Japan, south Korea, the Philippines, Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong, and places like that. The Soviets would've developed nukes and Japan would've been screwed or develop there own nukes making the cold war a three way while pushing China, north Korea and Vietnam to join the Warsaw pact or some other agreements with the Soviets.
>>345619
>It seems much more reasonable to grab a smaller portion you can actually control and hold onto it for good than to grab an immense blob and collapse two decades later.
This was the original plan.
Grab Taiwan, Korea, Manchuria. But obviously they were hungry for resources and they got insanely cocky after victory against Chinese forces.
The Nanjing massacre was basically one big middle finger Japanese soldiers gave China, that's how cocky they got.
>>342706
China wasn't russia's ally prior to the war.
Only when Mao finally defeated Chiang Kai-Shek, were the Chinese friendly to the ruskies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Hd9sz4PSdA
SUPERIOR NIPPON CANNOT BE BESTED BY STUPID GAIJIN
>>342724
>Japan was already working on a surrender
It was more of a peace treaty than a surrender, Japan demanded that the territories it conquered in the 30's be returned to them and remain under their control and to keep a standing military.
>>342706
Posting as stupidly as this should be a bannable offence on /his/
>>342747
Yeah and at the same time German officers, arms and training was being provided at Whampoa. So that makes the Nazis chinese allies too.
You conceive of 1930s china as some sort of cohesive modern state, when it was basically a colonial basketcase of fiefdoms, internal strife, and shitholeness, like Africa in the last few decades.
>>346224
>The Nanjing massacre was basically one big middle finger Japanese soldiers gave China, that's how cocky they got.
This is not correct. Nanking happened after heavy fighting in Shanghai. the KMT deployed their best infantry units to hold on to Shanghai and were able to hold on for far longer than was expected by Japan. Demoralized IJA troops then staged a mass chimpout in Nanking.
>>346498
>Yeah and at the same time German officers, arms and training was being provided at Whampoa. So that makes the Nazis chinese allies too.
They were.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-German_cooperation_until_1941
>>342775
Is this bait?
>Literally retarded.
>>342675
Perhaps? They might've been able to roll the russians in the east and continue to dominate the Chinese.
It is really hard to say, but they were definitely in a better position than their neighbors.
>>342723
Even before the oil sanctions, their choices were climb down, or do something stupid.
Japan had tried their hardest for 4 years, and they were no closer to any sort of strategic victory then they were since the fall of Nanjing.
Imagine a world where Chiang sides with Germany and Japan goes allied for a second war in a row. Just imagine
>>347715
>Japan goes allied
Except for the whole fact that they were genociding people like the Germans and they also had concentration camps and shit
America should have let the Soviet Union steamroll Japan, so they could focus on China. First of all Japan should have deserved it, the emperor could have been executed
Second of all, China would have been a better asset in the longrun
>>347727
Stalin was genociding his own people prior to WW2 yet was still an ally.
Some things can be overlooked in a war.
sort of interesting to consider that America was anti-Japanese, considering that at the time Japan was the most anti-communist country in the world. Maybe if Japan had been willing to stop further back they could have reached an understanding
