How could he have pulled it off? Pulled off at Hugemont? Send Grouchy more direct orders instead of having him guess and flounder? Maneuver his grand battery to bypass Wellington's reverse slope?
Also, what was his end game. Say he did route the Dutch-English Army and break the Prussians? Then what?
>implying the general has any effect on the fate of the battle
>Say he did route the Dutch-English Army and break the Prussians? Then what?
Then he has to face the even bigger Russian and Austrian armies.
He should have fought a different battle.
Preferably on the defense rather than the offense.
Specifically at Waterloo?
He should have put a 3rd of his army in front of Wellington and used the majority of his forces to fight Blucher before reorganizing and attacking the Brits.
Not sleeping half the day away might also have helped.
>>341450
It's hilarious that you actually have suggestions as to how the battle should have been fought.
Do you honestly think that you are a greater military mind that Napoleon?
>>341450
He waited wait into the day because of the downpour the night before, making moving artillery or supplies impossible. Even after waiting, they still could not skip cannon balls along the ground, shells were being absorbed by the mud, and gaiters/boots were falling off of marching troops.
>>341466
I'll never be able to know that. OP asked how Napoleon could have won, and I am simply giving my opinion based on what I know about the battle and what I would have done differently.
>>341475
>downpour
That does not excuse literally falling asleep for half the day. Napoleon's cannon were of little effect anyways because of the terrain. Wellington could effectively hide his troops behind the ridge and did so numerous times with few real casualties. The majority of the casualties from artillery on the British side came during the cavalry charges later in the day when the squares couldn't regroup fast enough to avoid getting blasted apart.
Like I said though, ultimately Napoleon should not have accepted battle at Waterloo. It was a stupid mistake made by a man who I personally feel was very tired and weary of fighting.
>>341466
>Do you honestly think that you are a greater military mind that Napoleon?
I doubt anyone here thinks that, but in that anon's defense, he does have an advantage Napoleon did not: hindsight.
>>341501
He didn't really have a choice not to accept battle, one more day and both armies would have been linked together.
>>341567
He could have retreated back into better ground in France, or waited for another opportunity to maneuver between coalition forces. While I would probably have tried to defeat them the way Napoleon did, I would not have sent troops to attack a heavily fortified position while another army is roaming around behind me. That is a rookie mistake no matter how you look at it.
>>341626
That is why Grouchy was deployed to tie them up, albeit failing miserably.
With the help of hindsight:
Press the attack at Ligny, ensure Blucher is killed or captured (He very nearly was) command of the Prussian army will pass to von Clausewitz who mistrusted the British and would have marched back to Warve and go on the defensive.
Wellington would have not faced Napoleon at monte st jean if he knew the Prussians weren't coming, he'd retreat back toward Antwerp and likely lose almost all of his Dutch forces to desertion.
Napoleon would easily have the numbers to take a depleted Wellington all he'd have to do is not fuck up.
Then Napoleon would have to consider his options, leave the Netherlands and march to meet the Austrians most likely, and that would be a different battle.
>>341707
Excellent answer. How about during the battle on the second day?
>>341728
That's tougher, I don't claim to be a tactician these are my judgments based on hindsight that Napoleon had no way of knowing.
But anyway, Napoleon would undoubtedly attack Wellington, things weren't perfect, mud would hinder both sides and mont st jean would be a good place for Wellington to hold him up before retreating to the town of Waterloo and then toward Antwerp.
Crown prince William of the Netherlands was with Wellington, could Napoleon knock the Dutch out the war by capturing him?
Von Clausewitz wouldn't be rushing to Wellingtons aid but any sane commander would be prepared for that possibility.
Napoleon want to deal a blow to Wellington before leaving to face the Austrians, but that still leaves the Prussians lurking in the bushes, maybe he would persue them.
Even if Napolean won a victory at Waterloo, he'd be in a sticky situation, he would be undoubtedly counting on French speaking Belgian recruits to bolster his forces, but he's still surrounded by enemies and his ultimate alternate fate is anyone's guess.
>>341395
Yeah, Tolstoy would say that with how the Russians performed against Napoleon.
>>341395
What a fucking stupid thing to say.
>>341466
Advice is easy to give in hindsight.
>>341376
Ultimately all who stand against anglo-supremacy are doomed to fail.
>>341376
>Waterloo
If Napoleon wanted any kind of victory with peace it would have been achieved before his 100 days.
>>341822
>Von Clausewitz
Dont you mean Gneisenau?
Napoleon should have avoided Wellington who was in a perfect defensive position, withdrawn back to France to take on the next contender.
>>341501
>It was a stupid mistake made by a man who I personally feel was very tired and weary of fighting.
This is my impression too. From what little I read he seemed like he was going through the motions.
Also Ney not managing to take any meaningful strategic point with overwhelming force also played a part. The guy seems incompetent as fuck
>>341466
It was the whole point of the thread, you condescending cunt.
>>342711
>The guy seems incompetent as fuck
PTSD had broken him down.
>>341376
He couldn't of won the 100 days, against way too many people. but he could have won the battle vs Wellington/Blucher by simply bringing Davout, Napoleon's best commander.
Also firing Murat for being an idiot would also be a good start. The battle of Waterloo wasn't the only time he went Leeroy Jenkins.
>>341466
It's not a matter about being a better general, it's about having the chance to discuss it in hind-sight.
I wouldn't be surprised if someone here came up with a way to win, but if Napoleon where in our position with our information he'd obviously trump us.
>>342711
>The guy seems incompetent as fuck
Nigga u serious?
Sure he fucked up at Waterloo, but is doesnt sum up his whole career
>>341376
He analyzed the situation correctly: he had to beat the British before the arrival of Blücher or he'd be doomed. Then he could shift his armies against the Prussians.
The question is, how could he have managed to attain this, his own analyze. Perhaps attack Wellington a day early? Was it possible? Was it feasible?
>>342807
I did say i read little about the conflict. I only know of Ney from Waterloo and from "No, the army will follow its generals" (If it was Ney who said it, I might have mistaken again)
>>342711
>The guy seems incompetent as fuck
Michel Ney, "les brave des braves", was a rather interesting character in the Napoleonic Wars.
Being in the original class of the Marshalate, he was unique that he didn't serve directly under Napoleon nor was particularly famous in France as being a competent commander, rather he was known within the French army as a daring and audacious commander. However, he wasn't known for being a quality commander. Napoleon himself said that Ney was "too immoral, too stupid to be able to succeed" and that "he was good for a command of 10,000 men, but beyond that he was out of his depth." The ten thousand men is an rough size for a French division as a corps could number from twenty to forty thousand men depending on campaign requirements and losses. Beyond the "immoral and stupid" comment, the comment about ten thousand men seems to be best. He has been described as an ideal infantry division commander, often leading from the front with the men rather than being sensible and leading from behind a few lines of infantry.
The thing he's most famous for is his rear guard not just in Russia but in Spain. In 1808 when the French intervention in Spain, Marshal Massena left Ney behind to cover the retreat of the French army, but rather than getting destroyed he showed extraordinary skill at rear guard actions. This would be a test for his future in Russia where he would lead one of the best rear guard actions in all of military history. However, this rear guard action would cost something.
1/2
>>342930
2/2
The rear guard action took toll on Ney, with a force of a couple thousand, it would slowly fall to a hand full of men no more than a couple hundred.
Combine that with a constant need to be ready to act and the physical exhaustion from the Russian winter, Ney would have been worn out more than any other commander.
After Russia, he would serve and get wounded several times, but was the leader of the push for Napoleon to abdicate.
So, now we come to The Hundred Days. At first, Ney was shown to be a pet of the Bourbon Restoration, swearing to bring back Napoleon in a cage. We know he didn't and turned in favor of his commander, however this could be the final straw that would unravel him.
At Quatre Bras, he was known to have said aloud that he wished a ball would find it's way to kill him on the spot. Then at Waterloo, you see the poorly made cavalry charge (done way too soon and as you said, poorly supported) that did little to change the situation (by not spiking the guns).
This cavalry charge might give the ultimate clue, as you said he didn't spike the guns but he was famously shown to be slapping the side of the guns with the flat of his sword. Later in the day, rather than call his men to retreat, he would cry out (after his fourth horse has been killed) "Come and see how a marshal of France dies", which is nicely portrayed in the Waterloo section of Les Miserables.
As a result of these confusing actions, the only thing that can be surmised is that the years of war and the excessive risk he put himself through finally started to cause him to crack, leading to the theory that he was experiencing PTSD.
He did have a few symptoms of PTSD, such as suicidal actions (see the quote, willing to fight the British to the death), shame or guilt (seen by the ball quote), irrational anger (slapping the gun with his sword) and general negative thoughts about the venture (see all of the above combined into a semi-suicidal madman).
>>342930
>>342934
Interesting background, didn't know that. And while I didn't mention anything about spiking the guns all that was explained exactly as you say in Bernand Cornwell's "Waterloo" (actually the only thing I read about Napoleonic wars, pls no bully). I realize Cornwell is biased towards Wellington, but he was rich enough at the time and cared enough about the history to not have to invent stuff in order to fit his narrative. At least I think so, is there anything more I could read about it (Waterloo and Napoleonic wars in general) in more depth?
>>343006
Pic related is a great Bio on Napoleon
>>343249
Thanks
>>341376
The rain fucked him desu.
He could have carried it if the ground hadn't been so damned muddy.
Anyone else disappointed with the Waterloo? its nothing compared to Battle of Leipzig, doesn't seem like a fitting end
>>343496
It seemed like the army of France made key mistakes the first day, and did it's absolute damndest to snatch defeat from the clutches of victory on the second. So many times during the battle of Waterloo where if someone just made the right decision, they would have smashed Wellington.
>>342711
>>342726
>>342807
>>342930
>>342934
Ney is probably my favorite Napoleonic general
He sure wasn't the most competent at tactics or strategy, but he was most definitly the bravest of them all, and his courage boosted the moral of his men
While most generals back then commanded from the battlefield, very few took directly part in action like him
Dude charged in first line of his cavalry units in a lot of battles and was wounded countless times
He even took part in a fucking bayonet charge in 1814, a thing no other general would do
Throughout the retreat from Russia, Ney’s energy and courage were equaled by his tactical ingenuity. Musket in hand, he led countless charges.
On one night march, a wagon went through the ice and a survivor could be seen clinging to the wreckage. Ney himself crawled along the ice to pull him out of the icy water.
Recognizing the rescued officer, Ney said matter of factly “Ah…de Briqueville, glad we got you out!”
By November 20th, the rearguard was down to 2000 men, and Ney found himself surrounded by masses of Cossacks.
“Tambours, La Charge! En Avant,” the Marshal cried and led a desperate attack that broke through.
When Napoleon heard that Ney was still alive, he exclaimed “The army of France is full of brave men, but Marshal Ney is truly the Bravest of the Brave.”
The retreat went on and on, and eventually, Ney had only 100 men left. With these, Ney and General Gerard held the bridge at Kovno while it was being destroyed.
Imperial Guardsman Jean Coignet described what happened. “Marshal Ney kept the enemy at bay by his own bravery. I saw him take a musket and five men and hold the bridge at Kovno. The country should be glad it has such a man.
Unlike many of his fellow marshals, he did not loot, and even refused plunder gathered by other Marshal’s.
He was very loyal to his wife and never had a mistress.
>tfw no french empire
>>344442
He also led the revolt of the Marshals
>>341395
>tolstoy
>>341376
>take Blucher when he was down
>pursue Wellingotn at Quatre Bras
>attach horse artillery to the Hugemont assault
>not let Ney go YOLO with the entirety of your cavalry
>tell him to spike the cannons since he's up there already
>send in the imperial guard after that debacle, because they're getting ripped by artillery
>post a few regiments by the river crossing when Blucher finally did get there
>giver Grouchy direct orders instead of having him wandering around guessing which of three objectives you chose to persue
>>341466
lmao
