What if he didn't buddy up with Hitler?
Do you think he would've achieved an Italian Miracle?
>>34054
Define "Italian Miracle" please.
At the very least the armed forces would still be rife with nepotism and inept commanders.
he would have lasted long like Franco and the economic boom in the 60s would not have happened
>>34129
Alluding to the Spanish Miracle
>>34148
Well then, staying out of the war obviously is an imperative, but Italy's position makes it harder and there he will need to curb his irredentism.
But I think finding the Lybian oil fields would had been a huge boon for Italy. IIRC they fored pretty close but were unlucky. Though I guess they would have been forced to take a side in the war if they had found them since oil was such a precious ressource for Germany.
>>34131
Franco's economy improved a bit when the US was interested in having them as an ally against the commies, I'd figure the same would happen for Benito.
>>34054
I wonder if he would be prepared to give up Ethiopia and Libya, I'd imagine he just curbstomps every revolt up to the point that he gets embargoed.
Italy would also still be a monarchy I guess, unless one of the two got sick of the other.
His regime probably would have survived at least up until his death, like Franco's. Again, he probably would have been a useful anti-communist ally, and received foreign support for it.
>>34054
Germany might not have lost the war
Remember Operation Barbarossa started about 2 months later because ArmIR was late and shit in general
Hitler might not have faced general Winter
And losing in Russia was Hitler's downfall
Unlike Franco, he had overwhelming support and didn't need a Civil War to get into power. He was respected by Churchill and Hitler both, at least initially, and successes in Albania and Ethiopia really made Italy seem like it was capable of kicking ass.
The same thing that destroyed his armies in 1940 would've made him not very useful as an Ally though, since a march through the Alps into southern Germany could be stopped by a small contingent of Germans. But if Italy was not in the Axis, Yugoslavia probably wouldn't have been invaded, or Greece. If they were, you would have Italian soldiers fighting alongside them, and given that Italy's best troops would not be busy in East Africa, it'd be a tough fight, and if everything else went as it did historically, I think the war could be over a year early.
That type of prestige would probably mean fascism still being credible today. The country'd still probably be a bit backwards, but he was definitely a hero Italy could've used. But he fucked up.
>>34362
How essential would those 235,000 soldiers from Italy be to the Eastern Front tho?
I'd imagine Mussolini would still send Hitler volunteers, like Spain did.
>>34362
Hitler lost in Russia because he was vastly outnumbered along with the Soviet tactic of burn and retreat. Winter had little to do with
If he became Prime Minister there would have been a British Economic Miracle
>>34054
He tried to buddy up to the Allies but they told him to fuck off and embargoed Italy.
>>34484
Yugoslavia was invaded because they left the tripartite pact, I'd imagine they would have left, with or without Italy being in the axis.
>>34054
Hitler looked down on the Italians. He would most likely have invaded them. Whether the invasion would have bee successful or not is up in the air, especially if the English came to help. I think they would survived the war and continued along similar to Franco Spain.
>>34618
Tripartite Pact was the back of the Axis. Without Italy in it, I'm sure that a lot of the associated states (Hungary, Romania, Yugoslavia, etc) would prefer to try and keep neutral. Besides, a large part of the post-invasion administration were either Italian or Italian puppets.
>>34539
Look starting the operation 2 months before and razing the soviets before winter hit was supposed to be the no. 1 priority
Sending volunteers later on to keep the territory under control is different
Besides Hitler had almost 4 million soldiers, Italy's support was useless considering how poorly equipped they were
>>34561
Not exactly
Burn and retreat doesn't work forever
Give the germans 2 more months and they could have won
>>34561
winter didn't destroy Hitler's army, but it did hamper his advance. The invasion of Poland, the low countries and France were all done during the warmer parts of the year.
The idea is that Hitler would have had two extra months to advance and maneuver if he had attacked in April, not that winter destroyed his army.
>>34730
You really think a 150 division invasion was delayed for 2 months because a couple of divisions were late?
>>34671
Hitler respected Mussolini
He did the Munchen putch to try to emulate Mussolini
>>34054
if my /gsg/ games are anything to go by. he could have tried to defend the Alpine border and small strip of marshlands towards Yugoslavia. Hitler couldn't possibly hope to fight France, BeNeLux, Italy and UK all at once.
It would be an insurmountable setback for sure.
>>34761
A whole country was late
>>34054
Probably not. If Mussolini hadn't allied with Nazi Germany, Hitler would have definitely invaded Italy to cover their southern flank from the Allies. I'm not sure how easily this would have been though for Hitler, seeing as he'd need his army to fight through the Alps; something that would have been of great difficulty. But it doesn't make much logic to see a Mussolini and Hitler fighting each other, being ideologically similar in a war of ideologies. I don't see anything happening other than keeping control of East Africa and North Africa until the 1960's until decolonization occurred. After that, Mussolini would probably continue to be supported by the U.S. against communism until his death, subsequently being replaced with a new constitution and liberal democracy that we see today.
>>34711
But you're forgetting the further in the Germans go, the longer the supply lines get. Keeping conquered land is very difficult and expensive, regardless where it is. Operation Barbarosa was the biggest blunder Hitler made militarily, because there was literally zero way he was taking the Soviet Union.
>>34711
At best they would be fighting another Stalingrad in Moscow when winter finally came. Because the autumn rains will still turn the road into muddy fields and slow their advance and they will still be limited by their logistical train being fucking long and under constant attacks by Soviet partisans AND the Soviet Union will not let its capital fall before giving a hard and long battle.
Saying "2 month earlier they win lol" is ignoring the constraints they had to work with, or that Barbarossa was pretty much a pipe dream despite Stalin being retarded.
>>34776
Check some biographies of Hitler. He thought Mussolini was an idiot. He only buddies up to him because of ideological similarities.
>>34691
I'm not really sure why Hungary joined the axis, but I guess being mad over the treaty of Trianon was a big part of it. Romania joined because of the butthurt over Bessarabia.
I guess Yugoslavia just felt pressured to join because all their neighbours except for Greece were in the tripartite pact.
>>34921
Yugoslavia was invaded by Germany.
>>34761
Germans had to interfere in Greece, since the allies were planning to land there as a way to get a foothold on Europe.
>>35010
I know.
They joined the pact prior, then left the pact because of an allied coup d'etat, then Germany invaded them.
>>34860
this. also Moscow was much better defended than Stalingrad and rivers and terrain favoured the defenders unlike Stalingrad where Soviets basically had to attack enemy forces just to enter the city.
ffs Germans couldn't even capture Leningrad which was much closer and it took them months to capture places like Sevastopol despite having number superiority.
The bottom line is, wherever there was a strong and determined defense force Axis war machine faltered
>>34961
>He thought Mussolini was an idiot.
Biographies from what time? Hitler and Mussolini used to hate eachother prior to 1936/37 because of the stresa front, his opinion of Mussolini was better after Mussolini signed the pact of steel.
>>34803
If the whole country is late because a small force has to be sent to the Balkans, then that country wasn't prepared to attack the Soviet Union anyway.
>>35097
I wouldnt say they were determined, more like intimidated by the people at the machine guns who would mow them down if they retreated.
>>35080
Yugoslavia didn't leave the pact, instead Germans declared war because they felt that pro-pact government couldn't be entrusted with keeping its population under control and they'd always risk Allied invasion taking place there
>>35097
>ffs Germans couldn't even capture Leningrad
They probably could, but they didn't try. Operation Nordlicht was cancelled because of a failed Russian attack from another flank.
>>34900
Did you even go to school? Hitler had a lot of respect of Mussolini since he invented fascism
>>35238
Lol no, they tried several times before deciding to wage a costly siege.
>>35195
well their officers and commissars were determined :^)
>>35227
They invaded because he wasn't satisfied with the rights the pact granted to Germany.
>>34961
Thing is, if Germans are fighting is Moscow when winter is coming then it could end worse for them than it did IRL. I can't see Hitler ordering them to retreat and set up a defensive lines and chances are they will be vulnerable to a Soviet counter offensive, like they were at Stalingrad. I can very well see the Army fighting there being encercled and destroyed. On the upside, diverted Soviet forces could mean that Stalingrad could be won but I don't see that changing the war. The oil fields in the Caucasus are still out of their reach.
IRL Barbarossa went up nearly perfectly for them as it is and they still lost. I don't think two months are going to change that.
>>35261
Lol yes, they never assaulted the city.
>>34054
I'd reckon Italy would turn into proxy war general with the Russkies supporting and arming commie partisans and the West backing Mussolini's regime.
>>34054
If the society of nations hadn't penalized him after the ethiopian campaigns he wouldn't have had to align with Hitler and would have probably kept on modernizing the industry and the state. He probably would have lasted till the 50s or even 60s before dying or being taken down. Italy would have developed more or less the same as now economically, but more gradually instead of all in a decade. Probably be better off if Mussolini decided to be an ally and still received the Marshall plan afterwards.
If Mussolini tried to keep his distances from Hitler after the penalties, he would have had no resources to develop our industry and military, so Hitler would have just steamrolled him like France at the beginning of the war and the RSI would have happened in 1940.
>>35381
Lol yes, they did.
>>36121
Nope.
