What would have happened to the USSR and the world in general if Lenin had survived until old age?
>>339918
He would have been poisoned/shot.
>>339918
More or less exactly what happened historically. An attempt to brutalise the urban proletariat while waiting for China / Germany to go off, followed by a hysteric heavy industry led capitalist development based on the extraction of surplus value through the proletarianisation of peasants.
The better question is: what would happen to the Soviet Union in a condition of general international revolution?
>>339972
Perhaps I should have said "What would have happened differently"
>>339972
>Implying Lenin would have built labor camps in siberia or starved the ukraine for no reason
>Implying Lenin would have become delusional and paranoid like Stalin did
>Implying the causes for the deaths of millions of Russians had already been put into motion
>>340014
How do you know that, faggot? You have no evidence go off of. Lenin's posthumous image is mostly mythology from the Soviet period, anyway.
>>340014
>>Implying Lenin would have built labor camps in siberia
Lenin voted for the Cheka which established SLON. He also agreed with the destruction of Tambov and the Makhovishchina, along with Kronstadt.
>Stalin
I think you mean the party.
>>340045
Because no soviet leader other than Stalin did that, and he was a murderous psychopath who killed members of his own government.
Didn't mean to imply Lenin was some heroic figure.
>>340014
Lenin was the one who started building labor camps.
Under Lenin's watch, the USSR experienced three famines.
Millions of Russians died in a stupid civil war that Lenin started.
Your move.
>>340070
>who killed members of his own government.
I seem to remember left SRs and multiparty soviet members being executed by Lenin's government, even while they were members of government through regional soviets.
>>340070
>Because no soviet leader other than Stalin did that
Well yeah because Staly killed them before they could do anything
>>340082
>Millions of Russians died in a stupid civil war that Lenin started.
The Bolsheviks and Left SRs and Mensheviks (Moscow) and Right SRs (Moscow) and urban anarchists (Moscow), and all of the all-party soviets outside of petrograd started the civil war matey.
Stop with the great fucking man theory.
>>339918
Less Zap Brannigan-Style military tactics.
>>339999
Well the options are these:
An earlier left wing line, ends the NEP & scissors, deliberate expropriation of the peasantry. Probably no military purge. Still has party purges (Djilas, Fitzpatrick). Probably a bonapartist international line.
A continued right wing line. Which leads to an urban proletarian 3rd revolution based on the ural-siberian method (Conquest). Might lead to a proletarian revolution.
A right-left flop like historically. Probably requires as vicious a purge as historically. Socialism in one country.
>>340082
>Lenin was the one who started building labor camps.
Interesting, I always thought they were exclusively built under Stalin. If you provide evidence I'll believe you.
>Under Lenin's watch, the USSR experienced three famines.
I'm fairly sure he wasn't personally responsible for them. I don't think he was in power for long enough to create those out of his own policies. But I'm not well informed on the topic. If you list the three famines you're referring to, I'll give my opinion on whether he can be held responsible for them.
>Millions of Russians died in a stupid civil war that Lenin started.
I don't think that this would be an indicator that he would be a bad leader. It was successful after all. However, I do not think he can be held personally responsible, seeing as the bolsheviks held a vote on beginning the october revolution.
>>340085
If you sauce this I'll concede the point.
>>339972
>More or less exactly what happened historically. An attempt to brutalise the urban proletariat while waiting for China / Germany to go off, followed by a hysteric heavy industry led capitalist development based on the extraction of surplus value through the proletarianisation of peasants.
Does that make any sense? What the hell is proletarianisation?
>>340185
http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/bcaplan/museum/his1g.htm
>But execution was not the Cheka's only tool; it also pioneered the development of the modern slave labor (or "concentration") camp. Inmates were generally frankly treated as government-owned slaves, and used for the most demanding sorts of work - such as digging arctic canals - while receiving pitifully small rations. As Pipes explains, "Soviet concentration camps, as instituted in 1919, were meant to be a place of confinement for all kinds of undesirables, whether sentenced by courts or by administrative organs. Liable to confinement in them were not only individuals but also 'categories of individuals' - that is, entire classes: Dzerzhinskii at one point proposed that special concentration camps be erected for the 'bourgeoisie.' Living in forced isolation, the inmates formed a pool of slave labor on which Soviet administrative and economic institutions could draw at no cost." (The Russian Revolution) The number of people in these camps according to Pipes was about 50,000 prisoners in 1920 and 70,000 in 1923; many of these did not survive the inhuman conditions.
>>340185
>Interesting, I always thought they were exclusively built under Stalin. If you provide evidence I'll believe you.
SLON.
>>340192
https://libcom.org/files/WorkersUnrestBolshevikResponsebrovkin.pdf (Slavic Review 1990) at 351, and at footnote 7 (Same Author, 1987) for forcible deposition of geographic soviets run by coalition members. At 357 the purge of the Obukhov plant
>>340207
>Does that make any sense?
Well, waiting for a European revolution was Lenin's line, and they tried to wait it out through the NEP.
>What the hell is proletarianisation?
And you're in a thread about Marxist history? Let's break the word down, "proletarian:" those who work for a living, "-isation:" the condition of being turned into. Turning people into workers. Also known as "primary accumulation".
>>340235
>Pipes
>>340267
Yes, it is Pipes, wow, you have a basic handle on the historiography of the Soviet Union, but you're not aware of Solovetsky Lager' Osobogo Naznachenia? ( http://www.solovki.ca/camp_20/decree.php )
>DECREE SNK ON NOVEMBER 2, 1923 "ON THE ORGANIZATION OF THE SOLOVETSKY CAMP OF FORCED LABOR"
The Kremlin, Moscow. November 2, 1923
not for publishing
1. Organize Solovki labor camp of special purpose and two transit-distribution point in Arkhangelsk and Kem. 2. The organization and management referred to in Art. I camp and transit-distribution points to assign to the GPU.
Signatories
>MEMBERS OF THE COUNCIL OF PEOPLE'S COMMISSARS: […] Lenin Vladimir […]
>>340288
>November 1923
>Lenin in charge of understanding shit due to his illness
>>340312
>LENIN DINDU NUFFIN: the post
>>340264
Handling the problem of the peasant. Basically, eliminating subsistence farming as a way of life. A major project of all of the communist states.
>>340374
>eliminating subsistence farming as a way of life. A major project of all of the communist states.
Not just capitalism in the East. Capitalism in the West has vigorously eliminated subsistence farming, from enclosure to the slow death of the French peasant.
Subsistence farming is an ugly way to live.
>>339918
Nothing, since the USSR wasn't at the beck and call of Great Men theory.
>>340381
Subsistence farming was actually pretty chill as long as you had enough land
>>340392
Richard Pipes is a famously anti-communist historian whose work has sought to typify the soviet union as a liberal state with absolution volition and choice, and whose choices were immoral. Consider him as a Figes or Sebag Montefiore from the 1970s. It is an attack on sourcing anti-Lenin material to Pipes, a notoriously anti-Lenin historian.
>>340407
Only after you fall over the barrier of the Columbian contact, and practice village land redistribution on a male or head equal share basis, and restrict your birthrate, and form elite heavy infantry or elite skirmishers or go down the SE Asian highlands migrant path.
Most subsistence communities end in internal serfdom, slavery, and gross inequality.
>>340424
>absolution
absolute rather
>>340235
I'm not well read on the period, but that page refers to Lenin's attempted assassination as a "heroic effort" so I'm fairly sure it's a bit biased.
>>340424
Ah, thanks. Any recommendations on where to start with soviet history?
>>340573
>Any recommendations on where to start with soviet history?
Simon Pirani
Shelia Fitzpatrick
Vladimir Andrle
