Weren't the Holocaust and the Armenian genocide basically just consequences of attempts to define what it meant to 'be' German or 'be' Turkish? How does that not make nationalism indefensible?
>>338740
I basically agree with you but you but you have to understand that it was less of an attempt to "define" what it means to be either and more as a last resort to keep a nation on the verge of collapse together by removing the supposed element which was tainting it. In both situations neither was the actual problem so the society collapsed anyway thanks to fairly stupid and impotent leadership, but my main point is that since the leadership was bewildered, and in Hitlers case grew out of a Germany which had already collapsed once thus making the Nazis false messiahs, they picked a bogeyman and disposed of it.
Thus Nationalism itself doesn't necessarily remain indefensible because of the two genocides you reference because they were done less out of attempts to define the Nations people and more as a way to save them and it is the fact that violence against the minority peoples of a Nation becomes totally justified that Nationalism is, for me, indefensible
Hope this helped OP sorry for being so long windedness. Also be ready for the buttmad /pol/ lurkers to show up in full force at the sight of you merely questioning nationalism's merit.
Nationalism manifests in different ways. Some are good, some are bad.
Hitler wasn't the figurehead of nationalism, he didn't get to decide what nationalism is about.
In truth, most heavily nationalistic people have been escaping oppression instead of oppressing
>>338740
Fuck off back to tumblr
>>338821
Nice false flag bruh
Not really. People always think that "Reich Jews" (German Jews) were exterminated in the same way other jewish peoples were, but they were actually purposefully kept away from death camps. There was an incident where a trainload of reich jews were shot, and it caused a massive furor among the SS.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninth_Fort_massacres_of_November_1941
I remember reading only something like 20% of Reich Jews died as a result of the holocaust, the vast majority from disease, compared to the 80-90% of Polish jews for example. The holocaust wasn't an issue of nationalism.
>>338740
It meant a demographic restructuring of eastern Anatolia to solidify Turkish rule in the region and so the Armenians and other non-Turkish groups couldn't incorporate it into their own nationstates at Turkey's expense.
The Nazis were just idiots who went after the entire Jewish community because of the prominence of subversive Jewish intellectuals and businessmen in Central Europe.
>>338740
>the Holocaust and the Armenian genocide
>Still not treating both as fiction
>>>/r/eddit
Hitler's thought, like his Lebensraum idea, wasn't nationalism, it was plain extermination.
>>338855
t*rk living in germany becomes white pride skinhead?
>>338855
>no Turks left in Armenia
>almost no Jews left in Europe
Clearly
>>338740
You can say this about literally any cause
"Isn't the preservation of the union basically indefensible since so many American lives were lost for it?"
>>338828
>implying you need to resort to retarded false flags to make /pol/ look like shitposters
>>338905
>Proof?
One simple Google search away family
>>338740
i hope you won't see it as defending the armenian genocide but it served a purpose and it wasn't exactly a genocide, can't say the same for jewish genocide.
armenians posed a very big threat inside of ottoman empire, to ottoman empire. they wanted independence and russians were happy to help a goy out, a lot of armenian males were conscripted into army and were forced to work hard jobs. ottoman government forced armenians to move out of turkish crib, however they didn't do anything other than forcing them to move out. year being 1915, a lot of people died to starvation and sickness. it is fucked but ottoman empires eastern borders were secured, in a sense.
real shitty thing is that it didn't matter anyway, central powers lost.
>>338905
Propaganda doesn't mean infactual, one thing deniers seem to have trouble understanding.
>>338912
The entire first 1000 pages of google are nothing but shills posting inconsistent and contradictory data.
It's fucking pathetic you still believe these lies.
>>338923
>wants to debunk Armenian genocide
>doesn't even know the contemporary demographic situation in Turkey
?
>>338944
>doesn't even know the contemporary demographic situation in Turkey, provided by the jews
Fixed that for you
>>338740
Yes remember the 6 Gorillion goy
>>338740
Maybe in the German case, but in the Ottoman case it was just a really shitty way of dealing with an ethnicity that they believed (likely wrongly) posed an existential threat to their country. Some armenian extremist groups had commited acts of terrorism in the late 19th century.
The ottomans had seen that concentrated ethnicities were capable of revolting and forming their own countries. This had happened with the greeks and bulgarians already. The armenians looked like likely candidates for another such secession, except they were spread out over a large area, part of which extended into the ottoman heartland of anatolia itself. The empire in general was very unstable after the french took tunisia and algeria, spain took morocco, russia took the balkans and the caucasus, and the english and french were in the process of waging war in several ottoman provinces.
Right or wrong, it was done out of a sense of pragmatism, as opposed to the nazis' "idealism".
>>338949
>thinks you can fool people on the current demographic state of major countries
What do you think this is, 1860?
Are you arguing that there are Armenians left in Turkey, or what? What are you arguing?
>>338963
>Being this gullible
You must be at least 18 to post on this site
>>338956
Same reasons for the Nazis hatred of jews actually
People always forget about the civil war that took place between WW1 and WW2 in Germany
>>338949
gb2/stormfront/ fag
>>338980
>MUH Stormfag boogeyman!
>>>/r/eddit
>>338984
it's not a boogeyman if you're actually here and shitting up the site you silly cunt
>>338990
Is expressing an opinion that opposes your point of view considered shitting up the site now?
>>338956
>likely wrong
I'm not a fan of the Turkish state, Turkish history, Turkish culture or Turks in any sense, but there was nothing "wrong" about this assertion, except that it wasn't an "existential" threat merely a territorial threat.
The Armenians wanted to create an Armenian state as described by some anon above. The Turks took care of that while the world watched and thus Armenian incorporation of Anatolia was hampered simply by the fact that there were no Armenians around to do it anymore. This happened in more places than Turkey and sometimes less violently (e.g. deportation and expelling). Turks don't deny that any killings took place, but they argue that it was a "civil war" and "Russian collaboration", while anybody with a bit of sanity knows that they simply massacred righteous freedom fighters. The same pre-conditions with the Kurds today, except I doubt they would get away with outright massacres. What they, and Israel, do instead is heavily retaliating when provoked.
>>338994
>Implying I need evidence to show how much the jews are manipulating the world
Oy vey!
>>339001
it's not an opinion if you've refused to accept facts as jewish lies for no fucking reason
you're the one with the boogeyman here, and it's the hook nosed ones hiding in your closet you utter trash
>>339008
>Literally not posting sources and expecting us to believe him
>>339008
Fuck off with your assumptions that a fact is obvious!
Show me proof I'm wrong dickhead.
Thread started pretty high quality, it's starting to drop now.
>>338982
[citation needed]
>>339015
>>339016
Ok. So you want me to "provide sources" that there were Armenians in the Armenian highlands prior to what is historically known as the Armenian genocide in the Ottoman Empire as if this is somehow a controversial claim even if Turks themselves would agree this was the case.
These are the so-called Six Armenia Vilayets of the Ottoman Empire which was referenced in the Congress of Berlin (1878). The congress was intended to settle the predominantly ethnic conflicts of the Ottoman Empire at a time of rampant nationalism.
No, not really. Those things were already defines.
>>339062
>"provide sources"
Why do people get so butthurt over this? I mean you're literally arguing with a Turj who denies it happened, you should just have whipped this out in the first place.
>>339076
Turks generally don't argue that the events took place, just the definition of "genocide". This guy is just sounds like some Stormkek who's out to prove that every ethnic cleansing is a Jewish lie while not even knowing basic demographic history of Anatolia. I'm bored.
>>339088
that the events didn't take place*
>>338740
They're not so much consequences of such definitions, but attempts to make such definitions a political reality by erasing that which contradicts the definition. Which may say something about the ideological nature and historical context of german or turkish nationalism, but not about antionalism in general, which seems to involve different things for different nations.
>>339004
>I'm not a fan of the Turkish state, Turkish history, Turkish culture or Turks in any sense, but there was nothing "wrong" about this assertion, except that it wasn't an "existential" threat merely a territorial threat.
I'm going to preface this by stating my hatred for Turks, but if they were actually in danger of losing a huge chunk of land bordering/overlapping the core turkish lands, such a secession would be a signal that almost any reasonably sized ethnicity can now gain independence from the ottomans, and there would be revolts all over the country to an even greater extent than there already were. Even if most of them weren't successful, it would be the death knell for the empire. But I don't think they would have been able to pull off such an independence movement, as they were the minority in most of the large segment of land they inhabited.
>>338740
>Weren't
>basically
>just
>consequences
>to define
by whom?
>what it meant
You couldn't write a worse question.
Mass murder can be linked to Christianity, to democracy, to capitalism, to communism, to just about every ideology.
>>339244
>such a secession would be a signal that almost any reasonably sized ethnicity can now gain independence from the ottomans
By the time Armenians got rekt the Ottokeks had already lost everything
>>339551
I think ideologies that supply its proponents with the idea that anyone who disagrees is a counterrevolutionary and that the revolution must be pushed violently through via dictatorship is more prone to massacres and suppression.
>>339597
Islam?
>>338740
Holohoax was a hoax.
Armenian genocide was caused by freemason crypto-kikes.
>>339597
Revolutionaries are the bloodiest murderers, though.
>>339655
They weren't even crypto except for Mustafa Kemal.
>>339655
>>338740
lolwut. Armenian """"""genocide"""""" has nothing to do with nationalism.
>>339564
I know, but in the event that they didn't collapse, it would have been a reasonable assumption that any territorial threat the armenians might have caused would also be an existential threat.
>>338740
Because it doesn't necessarily follow that just because someone is a nationalist that they will commit genocide.
>>338913
sounds more like ethnic cleansing
>>339264
it was lead by communist who were mostly Jewish intellectuals
>>343569
>it was lead by communist
Wrong, by the same standard you could call the 1979 iranian revolution a communist plot. The commies tried to make it their revolution, but they weren't sucessful, largely because the social democrats, who probably had just as many, if not more jewish members, weren't on their side.
>>338843
Look up the communist revolution in Germany (look at all the communist leaders) and jews in Weimar Germany.
There are reasons why the nazis chose the Jews.
>>338875
I just tried having an argument about the Holocaust with /pol/ there's no point with these guys they ask for proof you give them proof, they ask for more proof. It's like playing soccer with the goal post on the bed of a moving truck.
