How was life in Tibet before the chinese took over?
Theocratic hellscape
"Behead those who insult the Lama"
>>336296
Really? Read some fucked up stuff too, but I'm somewhat split about it. Sounded a bit like maoist propaganda. What do actual historians say about the matter?
They used to set people on fire if they made eye contact with the Lama
>>336308
Is this chinese propaganda or actually true?
>>336336
Well, consider the fact the poster probably got paid 4 cents to post that...
There was a thing called the (IIRC) 'Gushak Nuhr' basically they would go around picking up peasant girls to be sex slaves for the Lama.
>>336336
>>336301
>Ch-Chinese propaganda!
Literally American propaganda.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_Tibetan_program
>>336291
http://www.amazon.com/The-Struggle-Modern-Tibet-Autobiography/dp/0765605090
Here's a book written by an ethnic Tibetan revolutionary fighter who fought against the theocratic elite after he was enslaved as a boy, made to be a personal dancer/servant of a lama, brutally raped and humiliated.
For those of you who have short attention spans or poor reading comprehension. TL;DR: He says that Mao and the communists were better than the lamas and that they would be a brighter future for Tibet than any theocrat.
He died recently in 2011, spent the last years of his life working in China as a Tibetan school teacher.
The Lama used to play the eastern equivalent of tennis with the heads of his aborted bastards.
>>336352
Wow, how eye-opening, there are a minority of Tibetans who were in favor of invasion? No way!
Sarcasm aside the Dalai Lama has actually stated many times that there were gross injustices taking place in Tibet, but that this is no reason to simply invade, destroy culture, and butcher people, but I guess Americans are pros at this anyway.
Here's a primary piece of Tibet criticism with a rebuttal:
https://www.studentsforafreetibet.org/get-involved/action-toolbox/friendly-feudalism-the-tibet-myth
>>336365
gotta calm a lama down
>>336372
>https://www.studentsforafreetibet.org
Gee I wonder who could possibly be behind this
>>336384
>implying you even looked at the link
It has a famous essay by leftist historian and critic of Tibet Michael Parenti and a rebuttal. How is this in any way a bad thing? You are free to read both sides of the debate and make an informed judgement. Leave it to /his/ to think before even looking.
>>336372
Not OP but I just read that article and Holy Fuck! Up until this point almost everything I knew about pre-PRC Tibet came from Seven Years in Tibet. I honestly wish I could find eye opening information like this on /his/ more often.
>>336543
Fair enough, Seven Years in Tibet is a great book and I enjoy it, too. The real picture is obviously much more nuanced than either side would lead, but I think the Dalai Lama gives fair concessions to the grievances raised by critics.
>>336564
Yeah but the Dalai Lama himself has said he supports Tibet being a part of China
And yet no one ever remembers that, especially not overseas Tibetan diaspora
>>336372
That rebuttal was awful, read like a LISTEN AND BELIEVE polemic.
>>336573
Yes, I concur. Well, he essentially said that Tibet should recognize Chinese domination of foreign affairs and political "ownership" but that Tibetans should have internal control, especially over cultural matters. I've been there and I think it's a fair proposition. Right now things are terrible in the sense of segregation and cultural imperialism.
Once the Dalai Lama passes away I'm curious to see what the internal and external groups will do. Right now he's working hard for a middle ground and being peaceful about it.
>>336585
Suit yourself. There are plenty of other rebuttals and Tibetan points of view out there.
>>336589
Afaik the chinese will determine a new dalai lama on their own.
>>336589
>Right now things are terrible in the sense of segregation and cultural imperialism.
Well the irony is that the segregation and cultural imperialism is enforced BECAUSE of Tibetan independence movements.
>>336601
Yeah, that's not going to fly for the vast majority of the population, both internal and exile. The Chinese already "select" some lamas and it's more or less a joke. A real shame.
>>336606
So the ethnic Han Chinese get to move in and claim all of the good economic resources because Tibet wants to be independent? Sounds so absurd that's probably the Chinese logic.
>>336627
>So the ethnic Han Chinese get to move in and claim all of the good economic resources
Do you have a fact to back that up?
Chinese government is encouraging Tibetans to speak and write Chinese to make them identify as Chinese the same way Anglos assimilated the Scots, or Japan assimilated the Ainu and Okinawans. And as for segregation Chinese government encourages non-Tibetan zones and Tibetan-only zones. And this is all to prevent Tibetan independence riots.
> The Chinese already "select" some lamas and it's more or less a joke. A real shame.
A real shame that they're implementing separation of church and state? If they were Muslim Arabs, you'd be butthurt that they're invading Europe and raping Swedish women.
>>336606
Wow a distinct ethnic group subjugated in a fairly recent invasio by a totalitarian government wants self-determination who would have thought?
>>336664
>Do you have a fact to back that up?
You seriously debate that in any way? Just curious, have you ever visited? One stroll down Lhasa or realizing that even paying the entry ticket goes to the coffers of the Communist Party goes to show this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinicization_of_Tibet
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/may/24/tibet.china
I'm in favor of ethnic diversity, which includes Tibetans not being "assimilated" (read: having their resources taken and environment damaged) by Han Chinese.
>And this is all to prevent Tibetan independence riots.
Yes, that and the police checkpoints on every major pedestrian intersection really help that effort. Clearly the right way to run a population. If the Chinese are so loved and respected why not have a referendum on internal rule?
I wonder just why Tibetans would be so interested in freedom you have them trying to burn themselves or be arrested by the world's largest police state. Hm..
>A real shame that they're implementing separation of church and state?
They're not, though, it's an atheist government trying to select lamas. Don't you see the oddity in that?
> If they were Muslim Arabs, you'd be butthurt that they're invading Europe and raping Swedish women.
Lmao, what a jump. Projecting much? I don't support ANY cultural invasion, especially not ones in Europe.
>>336291
Prior to the British "Soz for toppling your country, Lads, one of our Duke chappies thought the Ruskies wanted it so we had to invade it first. Turns out they don't, so we'll just be leaving now" or after it?
Generally, it was a loose Chinese vassal state much like most other countries in the region.
>>336698
>Wow a distinct ethnic group subjugated in a fairly recent invasio by a totalitarian government
>fairly recent invasion
You wouldn't like the whole Qing dynasty and early Republican period then.
Pic related made the 13th Dalai Lama and his buddies butthurt as hell
>>336727
Direct Chinese rule of internal Tibetan policies was certainly much less than it is now, which is probably what he was getting at.
If you're actually interested in the governance structure of Tibet during the Qing and Republican period I'd recommend John Powers on the topic.
Free the Northern Caucasus!
>>336714
I thoght assimilation was good? Where is the open borders crowd advocating their no human is illegal stuff when it comes down to tibet. It's awfully nationalistic to say tibet for tibeteans.
>>336765
>It's awfully nationalistic to say tibet for tibeteans.
ASIA
FOR
ASIANS
AFRICA
FOR
AFRICANS
WHITE
COUNTRIES
FOR
EVERYONE
>>336765
>It's awfully nationalistic to say tibet for tibeteans.
So?
I think you must have me confused with someone else. I don't really get your strawman.
>>336783
>>336794
What does this have to do with anything I posted about Tibet? I think you're just being obtuse now. I have no interest in the cultural destruction by the Han of Tibet or of colored populations destroying European lands.
>>336801
He's a Nazi with a kekold fetish who thinks he can't get laid because black men and Chads are taking all the white women.
>>336801
I think you must have me confused with someone else. I don't really get your strawman.
>>336765
>move the posts
SHUT IT DOWN
How many China bucks do pro-PRC trolls get paid anyway?
>>336765
>Where is the open borders crowd advocating their no human is illegal stuff when it comes down to tibet. It's awfully nationalistic to say tibet for tibeteans.
Wh-what are you saying? BAD GOY BAD GOY
>>336765
These guys are so mentally ill even assimilation is racist and oppressive. A disharmonious multiethnic society is actually the ideal, at least in countries like Sweden and Britain. I was shocked when I found out because I always thought American-esque assimilation was the desired goal.
>>336832
Well, when that assimilation is by a totalitarian regime, with the express goal of flooding the region with more sympathetic Han Chinese, it's hard not to call that oppressive. Are you really arguing that Communist China is not a repressive regime?
To be fair I've seen some claims by free tibet activists and they claim half of szechuan province or som shit as part of tibet. I mean if you're going to play territory games based on Tang dynasty borders then doesn't the CCP as the govt after the Qing dynasty have claim over all of Tibet?
>>336821
There's the 50 cent party, which is government backed pro-PRC commenters.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party
However it shouldn't surprise you many ordinary PRC hold the same or similar view, due to the amount of propaganda. Its similar to how the US is led to believe "America is strong and native americans should be thanking them for culturing them". PRC teaches "tibetans should be thanking them for freeing them from lamas". Ofcourse the treatment of the two groups of people differ. You can't practice religion freely or voice political opinion or say anything that contradicts the PRC without government "disappearing you" or being sent to the "reeducation camp".
>>337190
You can see why in ethnographic and linguistic maps. They are traditionally Tibetan culturally, ethnically and linguistically .
The relationship between China-Tibet from Kublai onward was mainly a priest-patron relation that gave Tibet a large amount of autonomy regarding their governance and religious freedom. From what I've read, it was the Chinese emperors held Tibetan religion in high regards, not dissimilar to the mongols reverence of the Tibetan buddhists. Both would aid Tibet when necessary militarily, but left the Tibet to its own for majority of the time. This effectively gave Dalai Lama/Government of tibet a legitimacy.
>>337263
>tfw color blind and can't ever read these maps properly.
>>337209
I don't even like rap. I just want to have a discussion on how the life in tibet was before the chinese came.
>>337299
Wow, how horrible.
>>336301
>Theocratic
True
>Hellhole
Depends on who you ask. If you ask the Chinese and the criminals, it was a hellhole. But for the 99% of ordinary Tibetans, it was home.
>>336308
Most likely false.
By no means, Tibet was a fantasy land, it was a theocratic rule not to the vatican. But relatively speaking, Tibet was just another random country in the 1900s. Chinese say "we freed tibet from slavery/serfdom/theocractic hellhole" but then replaced it with an ever harsher system that still persists today and with no autonomy. Tibetan in Tibet can't even leave the country legally unless you have high PRC ties. Freedom of navigation/religion/thought/speech/press is all controlled in Tibet. Much more restrictive than mainland China.
>>337486
What kind of answer are you seeking? the politically charged one? "tibet was a hellhole" or "tibet was fantasy land"
Or non-political view? What do average tibetans do during day for fun/work? what do they celebrate? what do they eat? how do they live?
Average Tibetan would depend on location to location. For city dwellers, there were merchants, traders, restaurant owners, etc. The monks would do monk things like pray/read sutras/meditate/etc. The nomad tibetans would be herding yaks, drinking tea, regional alcohol(rice wine variant), horse riding, etc.
For fun things, I suppose they have religious dances, religious songs, telling of stories (Epic of King Gesar), etc. I believe wiki says, the variant of King Gesar spread all across central asia.
They were very religious in their life and did yearly pilgrimage across tibet, doing some weird yoga moves (full body). I hear they do that to their body to purify their body/mind. I didn't read much into that department, but thats what I know so far.
So Tibet had a really shitty "government", China annexes it and begins fucking up Tibet's cultural heritage, and now Tibetans are trying to save their culture by trying to kick China out despite still not giving a thought to governance so far should they actually succeed.
Sounds like no one is the good guys, China should govern Tibet, and China should lay off with the whole Cultural Revolution shtick.
>>336589
>cultural imperialism
Hmmm...please reformulate, if you read the literature on the term you'd cultural imperialism is a spook.
>>338585
>spook
What is that supposed to mean? I've seen it posted before in context I similarly didn't understand.
>>338645
its a /lit/ meme taken from the german philosopher stirner, from wiki:
>Stirner proposes that most commonly accepted social institutions – including the notion of State, property as a right, natural rights in general, and the very notion of society – were mere illusions,"spooks" or ghosts in the mind.[11]
basically like a "construct" or a something that doesn't really exist except within the mind
>>338551
Tibet was already part of the Chinese empire before the PRC took it over. It was simply reasserting its power over it after the central government power had collapsed with the Chinese revolution in 1912/13
>>336664
Bu anon Chinese are racist as fuck.
The minute there's something that differentiates you they go all crazy.
>>338958
Eh, it's a bit more complicated.
There isn't just one Chinese ethnicity. They are nationalistic first, racist second.
>>338972
I mean Han chauvinism.
>>338767
Tibet was de-facto independent after the fall of Qing. The PRC has no legitimate claims to it They can keep repeating the old mantra "its part of historical map" or "tibet was theocratic hell" but it doesn't change the fact that they took over an independent Tibet, for the short period of time it had independence.
The moral superiority argument is pretty much standard han chauvanism/neo colonialist argument.
>>339133
But to be honest it sounded like a really shitty government. Sucks that they are losing "muh Tibetan culture" to culturally caustic Chinese governance, but it's better than a theocracy.
>>339273
How is it better?
The people there in Tibet currently don't have many freedom. Religious freedom is very restricted, freedom to travel is very restricted, no freedom like speech/thought/press/self-governance/self-identity/etc.
Theocratic government of tibet had shitty laws but were they any different from the other countries of the time? I doubt that much, would it have stayed same if PRC didn't invade? There is no proof for that, in fact, if my readings are correct, Tibet after their independence (fall of qing) were modernizing their society. I believe it was the last dalai lama that started it. At worst, it would be another butan-type government/country. Which is basically a mini-Tibet.
>>339133
So what you're saying is China should have done what murrica did and just wiped the indians out the first time round (during the Qing Dynasty I guess).
Then they wouldn't have to deal with muh irredentism for tibetan clay.
>>339404
This would've worked if someone from PRC time traveled back and influenced the Qing policy thoroughly.
However I doubt Qing would take kindly to anyone considering a genocide against the Tibetans. First, the various mongol tribes were still loyal to the Tibetans. One of the reasons, the Qing adopted the policy of patronage of Tibetans was the mongols at the backyard. Second, various Qing emperors and elites revered the Tibetan Buddhists. Third, Qing were not Han Chinese but rather Manchu.
>>339350
Bhutan is a totaliatarian regime with no freedom of speech and no freedom of religion.
And they also regularly lynch their ethnic minorities.
Ironic that you complain about Tibet being ruled by an evul chink totalitarian regime then turning around and saying they would be much better like Bhutan, which is even worse than China
>>339671
I don't think he did say that.
>>339671
>Bhutan is worse than China
kek. Now I've heard everything.
>>339696
>LE HAPPY SMILING SLEEPY KINGDOM
http://fletcher.tufts.edu/News-and-Media/2011/07/13/Thapa-Jul13
>>339715
And yet people migrate to Bhutan, including Tiberans escaping from China, so it can't be that bad.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Bhutan
The greatest indictment of communism is not GDP or HDI, which can be manipulated (I'd go farther and say HDI itself is manipulated by Amartya Sen to promote Kerala communist model). The greatest indictment of communism is that people are always fleeing it, and the government always preventing people from leaving.
>>339766
>And yet people migrate to Bhutan, including Tiberans escaping from China, so it can't be that bad.
This argument is retarded.
MORE people migrate to China. And not just in hundreds like Bhutan but MILLIONS.
>>339404
They are basically doing the same thing what people fail to point out in this thread is that there are more chinese I'm Tibet than Tibetan themselves because the govt promoted mass immigration to 'secure' the region
>>342032
Most immigrants come from North Korea or West Africa.
You're not really disputing the point here.
>>342214
>Most immigrants come from North Korea or West Africa.
There are no North Koreans in China.
Most immigrants actually come from Netherlands, France, Russia, America and Britain. Have you even been to a foreigner-district in a Chinese city?
>>342204
And what is Chinese?
The Han? The Hui? The Mongol? The Manchu?
All of them are migrating to Tibet en masse, and they all identify as Chinese because it's nationality. And in the same vein, that would make Tibetans Chinese wouldn't it, because Tibetans also hold Chinese nationality. So Tibet was already 'Chinese' to begin with.
>>342219
>There are no North Koreans in China.
DPRK shill, please go.
>>342219
Yes there are.
Not just as defectors but there's legal North Korean emigrants as well.
>>342219
you just cant tell because theyre living in hiding
>>342229
ok stop with the retarded semantics, you're being dense for no reason
the majority of chinese are han and naturally because the government itself is han the sees han as more "loyal" to the state and so has promoted their immigration to tibet and xinjiang, where they now outnumber all the native populations. and no the Chinese government really doesn't see tibetans and uighers as "chinese." for a long time the commie government had an ethic policy that treated the many ethnicities in China as separate cultures with their own type of religious and even political organization/autonomy. It's more complicated than you think
>>336372
> there are a minority of Tibetans who were in favor of invasion? No way!
You've been fed with too much imperialist propaganda. Here's a chinese view on why the Chinese ethnic policies are shit now, not guaranteed unbiased but yours aren't either:
>Maoists invaded Tibet and Xinjiang
>Maoists liberated the serfs, tortured the Tibetan and Uyghur landowning "anti-revolutionaries" like how they did to the Han majorities
>low class Tibetans and Uyghurs, though disliked Han Chinese, got used to the commie regime since they had much leftists (which as you know were against nationalism) as well. Plus the policy in minority area were more lenient comparing to Han areas. There were Tibetans becoming commie officials even after joining the rebels of 1959. (t. Tibetan weeb online journalists) And the Uyghurs were quite secular and many married Han people. "...weird to see women of my aunts' age not wearing hijab while we do." (t. Uyghur girls I chatted online)
>commie revisionists like Hu Yaobang revoked Mao's policy after he died but it went too far
>senior Uyghur and Tibetan anti-revolutionaries were released, which disturbed low class Uyghur and Tibetan who they used to oppressed
>Mosques, Madrasas and Temples were rebuilt, minority languages were re-used in schools, which halted the half way done secularization
>Han Chinese gained distrust toward the minorities for their entitlement of extra score in college entrance exam, bypassing birth control and most notorious of all, inb4 you say that's basically the same to the black people in America, a policy 两少一宽 (two less and one lenient: less incarceration, less execution and more lenient trials towards minorities when they convict felony). Even some liberal Uyghurs tell me they see this as an insult.
The word count has exceeded but you are free to ask me for more detail if you are not "he's a chink so he's automatically biased" kind dumb
>>342619
>tfw there no wikipedia page of 两少一宽 in languages other than Chinese
It really feels like CIA is fueling something.
>>342635
What's going on here?
>>342640
Sir I really want to learn the way you manipulate media. Also how much did you fund each year the Chinese publicity department?
>>342635
They also don't mention all the benefits that Hu Yaobang gave to the ethnic minorities
Uyghurs and Tibetans are pretty much the DINDU NUFFINs of China
But what did you expect, /his/, /pol/ and /int/ have a huge anti-China boner
>>342658
>that pic
/pol/ pls
>>342658
>/his/, /pol/ and /int/ have a huge anti-China boner
kek'd, their boners are almost adorable comparing to those of the selfhating chinks in china.
>>342701
>t. use /int/ regularly
Have you literally never been on any threads on /int/ about China?
>CHINKS ARE SUBHUMAN BOO
>FREE TIBET
>WHY DIDNT THE JAPS FINISH THE JOB
>CHINESE CULTURE IS SHIT
I've been browsing /int/ for 5 years son. I know what I'm talking about.
This is why I left /int/ and come to /his/ now, /his/ can at least discuss Chinese history without frothing at the mouth and resorting to yell CHINK CHINK CHINK every two minutes.
>>342701
Sinophobia has been the political correctness of the world since 2008.
Only three kinds of people would post pro-china stuffs on /int/ or any boards: 1. edgy conservatives who use china like Nazi germany or Russia to troll the liberal majority; 2. Three Kingdoms fags; 3. chinese expats (like me)
>>342714
>Have you literally never been on any threads on /int/ about China?
Yes. Most /int/ users start calling China shit after the Chinaboos show up, to troll them. Nothing special and kinda deserved.
There hasn't been a thread about Chinese history on /int/ for like a year. Most threads about the Chinese are economic discussion.
