![tumblr_nrq0yb79Wx1t26my0o1_500[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/We9cXQ3.png "tumblr_nrq0yb79Wx1t26my0o1_500[1].png")
Does anybody here have any thoughts on the mysterious Vinca culture? Was it actually an Ancient Civilization or just a highly advanced culture?
Some fun facts about the Vinca are as following:
>Early form of proto-writing that predated development of Sumerian proper
>Advanced farming technology
>Artwork
>Produced the first copper ever
Hmm. Sounds like an interesting topic. I've actually never heard of them, but will probably look them up once I get to school. So, bump
It wasn't really a civilization, they probably lacked a common political power. Culture in this definition means a group of archeological sites with similar features, whetever they were the same ethnicity or power is unknown.
As for the protowriting, thats not unique either, we know about many symbols before proper writing began, such as Chinese Neolithic signs or the Dispillio tablet. If you think about its only natural there were first these highly ideographic signs before actual writing.
Looking at the finds themselves, I think it speaks for itself.
The disk itself is the more interesting one, I find it funny how many people overinterpret it, back in HS my history teacher said to him its just a comic about hunting that tells x number of hunters set out with bows to shoot down y number of game, then they had a big fire and danced around it.
Instead there are quasi fringe ideas about it shoes some mystical whatever with deep connection to cultures at the globes other side.
>>329927
It's one of the more interesting ancient cultures of the world along with the Natufian.
Not much is known about it and hard to assess the level of civilization. Overall the copper production is probably the most
They are the true ancient Serbs, or so says Jovan I. Deretić, a controversial Serbian alternative historian.
>>330001
serbs are too slavic, kosovan-albanians are the only people that might have some sort of connection to them
>>329977
>It wasn't really a civilization,
yea but, what does that even mean ?
>thats not unique either
id say that a very interesting and important point is made precisely by the fact none of it is unique
the vučedol culture happened right next to it, albeit later in history, and numerous other cultures flourished in europe contemporaneously and overlapped, all had developed metalurgy and agriculture and complex symbolic systems
maybe we are looking at it the wrong way when we try to compare this to what we understand as civilizations, maybe thats not the point, maybe that was a paralel form of human populations functioning on a rather high level for some period of time along with 'civilization' developing in say, mezopotamia or indus valey or wherever
>>330029
Civilization implies urban centers, writing, state structure, they have their own well defined culture, social development, and possibly an elevated status among other cultures.
Vinca appears quite advanced but falls short being a civilization based on what we know.
>>330010
Yeah sure, because Albanians didn't come to the Balkans with the Turks. They are 100000% Illyrian and were in Kosovo even before the animals.
>>332588
Problem is, Albanians share words of pre-Roman origin with Romanians. So even if they did come with the Turks, they didn't replace the autochthonous population, but were merely assimilated by them.
>>332603
>Problem is, Albanians share words of pre-Roman origin with Romanians. So even if they did come with the Turks, they didn't replace the autochthonous population, but were merely assimilated by them.
That argument is retarded and can be stated for every balkan nation. You can say that about any slavic nation, since most historians cant even agree on what the Slavs were, the Slavs were assimilated by the Romei, or the Byzantines. Also, what "autochthonous " population?
>>332781
Obviously talking of Illyrians.
>>332807
The Illyrians didn't exist at the time the Turks came.
>he term "Illyrians" last appears in the historical record in the 7th century, referring to a Byzantine garrison operating within the former Roman province of Illyricum.[8] All the remaining tribes except perhaps the Romanized Vlachs[9] were Slavicised in the course of the early Middle Ages.
Albanian history is nothing but nationalistic mythology, Albanians are as much a communist made up nation as Macedonia, Moldova and Montenegro.
>Even after Albania became independent in 1912, Albanian national identity was fragmented and possible non-existent in much of the new country.[86] The state of disunity and fragmentation would remain until the communist period following World War II, when the communist nation-building project would achieve greater success in nation-building and reach more people than any previous regime, thus creating Albanian national communist identity
Their whole Illyrian heritage is made up to give them legitimacy over areas they controlled. Without that they have no claims on Kosovo or Western Macedonia. Its a nationalist myth
yes! i knew about the vinca signs. i think maybe a pictograph form of writing, like chinese, egyptian and sumer's logogram
just read a paper on yamana culture dna, which they suggest fits best with protoindoeuropean chariot migration to europe.
>>336329
ok,so vinca is about 4500bc
>The Vinča culture, also known as Turdaș culture or Turdaș-Vinča culture, is a Neolithic archaeological culture in Central Europe and Southeastern Europe, dated to the period 5700–4500 BCE
yamna (ya) is 3,600–2,300 BCE
>The Yamna or Yamnaya culture,[note 1] also called Pit Grave Culture and Ochre Grave Culture, was a late copper age/early Bronze Age culture of the Southern Bug/Dniester/Ural region (the Pontic steppe), dating to 3,600–2,300 BCE
this 2014 paper suggests vinca would be early agriculturalists mixed with easteuropean huntergatherer at vinca period
massive migration from the steppe!
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7555/full/nature14317.html
Massive migration from the steppe was a source for Indo-European languages in Europe
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7555/full/nature14317.html
>>336527
this is the short version
http://genetics.med.harvard.edu/reich/Reich_Lab/Welcome_files/nature14317.pdf
also early european agricultre migration was from middle east
>>336569
strange that basques arent more differentiated, but they have a lot of early neolithic, as so sardinians and albanians. and greeks too - the pelasgians?
>>332781
>>332862
God, people like you are so fucking retarded.
Do you believe Albania was not inhabitated before the Turks came?
If you knew the slightiest thing about genetics and history you would know that invading group of people NEVER replace the native groups apart from a few special cases like North America where the invaders brought diseases with them that lotterally exterminated the natives.
Turks (mind, not turkik people) probably influenced the natives' genetics but sure as hell they didn't replace them.
>>336587
also see chariot spread east and the andronovo culture, tocharians
his thread has so many nice maps
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=543270
>>336619
Historical spread of the chariot. This map combines various classes of information, historical and archaeological. The 'isochrones' as given should not be considered more than rough approximations, give or take a century.
red, 2000 BC: area of the earliest known spoke-wheeled chariots (Sintashta-Petrovka culture)
orange, 1900 BC: extent of the Andronovo culture, expanding from its early Sintashta-Petrovka phase; spread of technology in this area would have been unimpeded and practically instantaneous
yellow, 1800 BC: extent of the great steppes and semi-deserts of Central Asia, approximate extent of the early Indo-Iranian diaspora at that time. Note that early examples of chariots appear in Anatolia as early as around this time.
light green, 1700 BC: unknown, early period of spread beyond the steppes
green/cyan, 1600-1200 BC: the Kassite period in Mesopotamia, rise to notability of the chariot in the Ancient Near East, introduction to China, possibly also to the Punjab and the Gangetic plain (Rigveda) and E and N Europe (Trundholm Sun Chariot), assumed spread of the chariot as part of Late Bronze Age technology
blue, 1000-500 BC: Iron Age spread of the chariot to W Europe by Celtic migrations
could the hungarian holocene gatherer or early neolithic be vinca culture?
>>332603
Same with the Serbs.
>>336646
Andronovo culture developed from yamnaya too
Period Bronze Age Dates c. 2000 BC – 900 BC
Preceded by Yamna culture
>The earliest fully developed spoke-wheeled horse chariots are from the chariot burials of the Andronovo (Timber-Grave) sites of the Sintashta-Petrovka Proto-Indo-Iranian culture in modern Russia and Kazakhstan from around 2000 BC. This culture is at least partially derived from the earlier Yamna culture
>The older Sintashta culture (2100–1800), formerly included within the Andronovo culture, is now considered separately, but regarded as its predecessor, and accepted as part of the wider Andronovo horizon.
>A large group of scholars associate the Andronovo culture with the Indo-Iranians (Aryans); it is often credited[by whom?] with the invention of the spoke-wheeled chariot around 2000 BCE.[1][13][14] The association between the Andronovo culture and the Indo-Iranians is corroborated by the distribution of Iranian place-names across the Andronovo horizon and by the historical evidence of dominance by various Iranian peoples, including Saka (Scythians), Sarmatians and Alans, throughout the Andronovo horizon during the 1st millennium BC.[1]
The Sintashta on the upper Ural River, noted for its chariot burials and kurgans containing horse burials, is considered the type site of the Sintashta culture, and it is conjectured that the language spoken was still in the Proto-Indo-Iranian stage
>>336611
But the identity of a people is determined by culture, not genetics. Turks in turkey are turks, not greeks, armenians or hittites, even though most of them are genetically closer to those than they are to the original turkic invaders.
>>332588
they did not, lol. albanians have an overwhelming amount of e-haplogroups like greeks, so it is very probable that they have been there for a long time, certainly before the slavic invasion
>>332588
also, the theory that albanians come from the caucasus is long obsolete, they speak an indo-european language ffs.
>>332862
>Their whole Illyrian heritage is made up to give them legitimacy over areas they controlled. Without that they have no claims on Kosovo or Western Macedonia. Its a nationalist myth
Don't get me wrong, I dislike Albanians as much as anybody else but...
They speak an Illyrian language and they existed there before the Turks came. That simply didn't happen by accident and people didn't magically start speaking it in the 20th century. Same for the Greeks and other people. Now it might be absurd to claim all Illyrian legacy as "Albanian" but that's another topic.
They have been living in Kosovo and Northwestern Macedonia before nationalism took off in the Balkans. Simple demographics give them a valid claim to those regions.
>>336874
>there's no indo-european languages in the caucasus
>>336874
So do Armenians.
>>336877
>They speak an Illyrian language
We don't know this. We don't have enough information about what the illyrians talked.
>and they existed there before the Turks came
While this is true, the first evidence we have about them existing is very young, from the XI century, way after slavic migrations.
>>336908
There are few unique similarities between Illyrian and Albanian.
Question is not are Albanians natives, but do they descend from Thracians or Illyrians.
>>336908
Slavic invasion had a negiglible genetical effect in the southern balkans
>>336611
>If you knew the slightiest thing about genetics and history you would know that invading group of people NEVER replace the native groups
So by your rhetoric, that would mean that the Slavic culture was indigenous in the Balkans as well?
>>337257
?
he said that cultures change, not peoples
>>337271
Yes, but the identity of peoples is defined by culture. So the question still stands.
>>330001
That guy is basically the :aliens: guy of Serbia.
>>329977
>loss.jpg
>>337257
Let me explain this to you:
>Brits conquer some African lands
>after some time, the local blacks now speak English and are Christian
it's similar to
>Slavs invade the Balkans
>after some time, the native Balkanians now speak Slavic
Slavs first and foremost are a language group. It doesn't imply every single Slavic speaker nowadays has ancestry from bumfuck Ukraine or wherever the hell the Slavs originally popped in.
>>336695
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/vinca.htm
Omniglot has a n8ce page on the script
>>340585
Introduction to the "danube script"
http://www.academia.edu/3035626/Introduction_to_the_Danube_script_from_the_book_Neo-Eneolithic_Literacy_in_Southeastern_Europe
The graph I posted before suggests Albanians are mostly early european neolithic farmers, with small admixture with hunter gatherers and yamna dna.
