Is religion inevitable? Along the lines of:
>[bad things happens]
>A: I think a witch did this.
>B: That's stupid, there's no such things.
>A: That's exactly what a witch would say.
Is there any pre-modern (not post-religious) society anywhere that didn't subscribe to the supernatural?
Pretty sure it's hardwired into the brain.
Also
>scientific method
>quantum mechanics
Why are they on there?
>>322548
People are born animists.
This is what pisses me off about a lot of atheists-they think literally all religions are "muh skydaddy" for time immemorial. It's not all demigods and prophets and shit.
>>322548
>Iranian and indians
>existing thousands of years before proto indo Europeans
I hope this is a reference to geography because this makes no sense
It's like saying Protestantism existed before Christianity
>>322566
Why are they listed under "Semitic" no less?
>>322548
Belief is a complicated thing, a lot of believers had some "clause" to their sentiment about the supernatural.
As for your question, there is an argument to be made that Greeks mostly didn't REALLY believe in their myths.
I mean to read the book about that by Paul Veyne.
>>322578
>le jew science meme
And why is Scientology in "Australian"?
>>322586
There is an argument to be made that all people everywhere mostly didn't REALLY believe in their myths the more developed they got.
>>322548
Hi All,
I come at Heart/chest area focus from a different angle, for the most part.
For one thing I was/am in many ways a Bhakti yogi. In other ways I am a cold analytical Emptiness yogi.
I will use the term Heart Chakra to distinguish certain sensations from the blood pump in the chest, more on the blood pump later.
As a Bhakti yogi, the Heart Chakra is the center of Love, Devotion, and Bliss as opposed to the roaring mass of fear etc. that others have described here. Not that I haven't experienced these things in the Heart, just that, mostly, I have had a wonderfully good time there!
I began my practice in the late 70's as a Catholic. I would sit in church after mass or other times, with my attention on my Heart Chakra, and my unblinking eyes on the Tabernacle where the Eucharist was reserved. I was either filled with overwhelming Love or Yearning for God, or wracked with sorrow for my sins on these occasions. Other times I would have my eyes closed and my head bowed with similar experience. When the Dark Night hit me hard a little later it was less pleasurable more like the being torn apart Theprisonergreco was talking about.
At some point I learned Centering Prayer from the Cloud of Unknowing and the Jesus Prayer from the the Way of the Pilgrim and thus introduced a mantra practice to the Heart Chakra work that I had been doing.
Sorry about the Christian content.
>>322620
Here are some of the things I learn then about the sensations that arose in the Heart Chakra. I notice that the smooth muscles of the trachea were contracting when these sensations arose. This would impede the breath somewhat. I found that I could produce these emotional sensations in the Heart Chakra by contracting those muscles. Those emotions had quite a range, from rapture to anguish. I also noted that I could regulate those sensations by controlling my facial expression. By just tightening the corners of my mouth a little, the Zygomaticus muscle, and softening the eyes I got positive, happy to ecstatic feelings. By relaxing my face completely I got calm, peaceful feelings or maybe neutral empty feelings. Sometimes I would sit in the pew and flip back and forth between these two states at around once a second, maybe a little faster. I still do that sometimes.
If I made a sad face, knit brow, slight frown, inner eyebrows raised, sensations of sorrow to anguish would arise. The more extreme the facial expression, the more I contracted the trachea, the more powerful the sensations would become. If I was alone in the church I would sob with joy or anguish, with my eyes full of tears. The tears might sometimes have had something to do with staring unblinking for tens of minutes...
At some point I found that my breath was spontaneously stopping at the end of the out breath, sometimes for 20 or more seconds. This intensified whatever sensations were taking place. I found that I could do this on purpose, though it probably worked better if it happened without me noticing. When I noticed that I needed air it would bring me down a bit. I got into a rhythm where I would start the in breath before the need for air took my concentration off the object of my devotion.
>>322621
These days I don't often do anything resembling these practices. Sometimes these sensations arise spontaneously. Or if I am listening to Hindu Devotional music, Bhajans, I will go rocketing off into Bhakti states. Back when my wife and I were in the Honeymoon stages of our relationship I would get hit by Heart Chakra peaks of Love/Bliss that would sometimes literally shake me off my feet. She must have thought it very strange. Now when I get a little of that love current going when I am looking at her she just goes, “What?” Oh, well, sigh...
Oh, I do wear a Buddha smile for as much of the day as I can. Or a bigger smile that I let grow whenever I meet someone's eyes. This keeps a little happy light going in the Heart Chakra as I go through my day. The really neat thing is that it is contagious!
>>322623
Is this yogipasta?
>>322593
It's in North American
>>322548
>Is there any pre-modern (not post-religious) society anywhere that didn't subscribe to the supernatural?
Animism, which was the dominating spirituality of pre-history, is supernatural, but it's not in the conventional contemporary sense.
Believing that nature has a spirit of some sorts, or is "alive" is very different from believing in monotheism.
>>322566
As wholistic explanations of the universe I'd imagine. They fill the hole / answer the questions the supernatural once did.
>>322657
Even if you held that to be true, it would be silly to date it at 1650.
>>322548
>Shinto related to Continental East Asian religion.
>Shenism
Chinese worshiped the cult of the Supreme God prior Heaven/Ancestor worship
>Confucianism
>Taoism
>Religions
Trashed.
>>322656
Why would people necessarily make the jump from "that's a rock" to "that's a rock inhabited by rock spirits"?
>>322672
Nah, he's right, what matters is the color, not the position.
>>322669
Interesting question to be honest.
I haven't studied animism at all so I don't know.
The wiki article has this to say:
>Animism encompasses the beliefs that there is no separation between the spiritual and physical (or material) world, and that souls or spirits exist, not only in humans, but also in some other animals, plants, rocks, geographic features such as mountains or rivers, or other entities of the natural environment, including thunder, wind, and shadows. Animism thus rejects Cartesian dualism. Animism may further attribute souls to abstract concepts such as words, true names, or metaphors in mythology
>>322677
I just realised that, don't worry, I'm retarded ;-)
>>322574
There were cultures in the region that existed before the theoretical migration.
>>322669
Eh, gotta make stories to not get bored when you have to spend millenia without TV.
>>322669
>make assumptions about mobile/organic aspects of nature (sun, water, trees etc)
>end up taking assumptions and applying them to immobile/inorganic aspects
>>322669
Ever gotten frustrated with a machine and yelled at it? As if it was TRYING to give you a hard time?
Notice how often children believe their toys have personalities?
Same principle but with no modern sense of rationalism
"I'm alive, I think, I feel. Doesn't everything else?"
>>322681
I really don't get why people intimately familiar with nature would make this jump. They'd know first hand that rabbits are just rabbits who behave predictably like rabbits, etc.
>>322548
Updated version.
>>322717
Humans are empathic
And many tribes believed that animals are either crazy or just obey their own rules
>>322701
Wouldn't the difference be obvious to someone living a life surrounded by life and death? A tree is obviously alive and then obviously dead just as is a human, or a squirrel. A rock is just a thing laying there, with no will or mobility or life of its own, and is only acted upon by the forces of nature (light, gravity, etc.).
I really think something like >>322548 is a better explanation for how belief in 'animism' would have come about: some persuasive individual(s) claim some sigpnifigsnt event is due to 'spirits', and anyone who says otherwise is an evil spirit / liable to offend the good spirits. Since the rational 'non believers' can't offer any reason to oppose this nonsense even if very very very unlike to be true (pascal's wager) it inevitably takes over.
>>322716
>Notice how often children believe their toys have personalities?
People grow up and realize a doll is just a doll. Why should we think people in the past would be perpetual children?
>>322717
Because people seek explanations.
I don't find it hard to believe at all that pre-modern man believed that everything was alive and had a soul, because it probably felt that way to them.
You have to imagine how amazingly ignorant these people were about their surroundings.
>>322747
>You have to imagine how amazingly ignorant these people were about their surroundings.
Why would they be ignorant? I'd imagine they'd be extremely expert and knowledgeable about their surroundings. They'd know every animal and its habits, every plant and its uses, exactly how the seasons progressed, etc, etc, etc.
They'd be the last people I'd expect to ascribe human qualities to animals, since they'd know very well that animals behave like animals and not like humans.
>>322761
We are talking about pre-historical man. I.e hunter-gatherers.
When I say ignorant, I am talking about knowledge about why they even exist, why the world is as it is, and the meaning of it all, I'm not talking about "practical wisdom", as in knowing where the succulent and eatable berries grow.
I don't think you call someone who throws new-born babies into a volcano in order to stop the lava from flowing, "knowledgeable".
>>322772
>I don't think you call someone who throws new-born babies into a volcano in order to stop the lava from flowing, "knowledgeable".
What I'm asking is how did they ever come up with the idea of throwing babies into volcanos? Where's the logical leap from 'there are volcanos that explode occasionally' to 'lets throw babies into them'?
>>322548
>Mithraism
>Arabic
>>>/trash/
>>322761
Pre modern people often had a notion of a primeval era where man and beast openly communicated and shared in culture
The line between man and beast was thin. When you don't know how or why the bear stands up and walks occasionally the best explanation is shapeshifting.
>>322781
Because they had to come up with an explanation for why the volcanoes kept destroying miles of forest and feeding grounds for wild-life that they hunted.
Since they were primitive people, they pulled an explanation out of their ass; human imagination is after all very potent.
You are making it harder than it is I think. There is nothing logical about it, and why would it be?
>>322798
>[volcano keeps going off]
>A: Let's start offering babies to the volcano.
>B: Of course not you crazy fuck. What makes you think that would do anything but kill babies?
>>322804
You have to imagine it slightly differently.
You have to imagine it within a frame of reference where every single person within a tribe or grouping believes that nature is *literally* alive, and that if you do certain actions you can piss it off and would need to appease it.
It's certainly not logical, but I can see how it's possible for ignorant and afraid human beings to think that way.
>>322807
>It's certainly not logical, but I can see how it's possible for ignorant and afraid human beings to think that way.
Did they all come to think this way? As per original question, is there some group somewhere at some time that took a purely rational materialistic view of the world? (before the advent of modern science)
>>322843
>As per original question, is there some group somewhere at some time that took a purely rational materialistic view of the world?
Maybe Ancient Hindus.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charvaka
>>322644
It's nonsense
>>322735
Adults are just older children.
A simple truth to explain so much.
I have a question to those who still held on to their religion/faith/etc. How do you keep your faith when you learn more about the history of your religion, then found that there is little to no divinity at all to religion, and it seems like religions are, after all, man-made?
>>322867
This question presupposes anyone on 4chan believes in god, when it's obvious anyone who claims to is trolling.
>>322870
kek this is so true, the only reason people on this board claim to be religious is clearly because they just don't want to be associated with reddit-tier fedoras.
>>322870
What I expect the most is the fedora posts desu.
>>322717
They saw human features and behavior in the animals around them, like we do today.
Why wouldn't they presume that if humans are infused with a little something special spiritually (as most people presume), so would animals?
>>322548
I hate Christianity so goddamn much.
>>322548
>scientific method
>adapted from christianity
>influenced by islam
>>323271
Invented in the Christian world, with influence from the Islamic world.
>>323304
But that doesn't mean the scientific method itself is "adapted from Christianity" or "influenced by Islam".
Is a rifle "adapted from Christianity" because it was invented in the Christian world?
>>323312
You could say it was adapted from Buddhism because the Chinese invented gunpowder. That damn Buddha is responsible for millions of deaths.
>>322548
>try to develop holistic interpretation of the world, including objective reality
yes
>>323319
Or you could say it's just adapted animism
After all, the first tools were invented by hunter-gatherers. They were the actual proto-scientists, if anything
>>322571
Infants attribute intentions to inanimate objects. It's not a spiritual world-view, though you can imagine how the first religions would spawn from this innate tendency.
>>322720
I'm not sure about this kind of stuff but I'm saving it either way.
I read pic related a few years ago. I remember better the parts about how monotheism evolved (particularly in Israel), but I'm pretty sure it touched on the ancient origins of religion. I just don't remember what it said.
