Was Christianity a revolt against Roman values? Did Christian values undermine The Roman Empire? (Nietzschean slave morality vs. master morality)
>Nietzschean
>>314519
I don't know
Christian Ethics are similar to Stoic Ethics.
A stoic sage and a saint would behave similarly.
>Nietzschean
Wrong board mate
You belong here: >>>/trash/
>>314540
Didn't Nietzsche write in Will to Power that things like Stoicism and Neo-platoism were protoypes for Christianity. Rome was already in a state of decay when these philosophies were forming.
>>314566
Stoicism was popular among Roman elites when Rome was at its best. Stoicism was somewhat popular in the Victorian Era.
No, no it had many other problems, but gibbon is still a cutie.
western rome died due to degeneracy, they abandoned the model where every male roman had to serve in the army... replacing it with marian weakness. the republican model allowed rome to survive Hannibal as they had manpower that made the achaemids seem wimpy. hundreds of thousands of loyal soldiers that could be enlisted if need be, attilla would have been ground down in similar fashion too.
>>314646
I suggest you read about the fall of rome, Isaac Asimov has a bias however interesting book on it.
>>314497
Christianity led to the fall of the Roman Empire.
A warrior culture replaced with a pity and guilt one.
>>314700
That and the seven much larger issues Rome had, including being forced to outsource their military and theodosius having an untimly death.
Stilicho getting keked was the last straw. If he went full dictator mode he couldve saved Rome.
>>314700
Nice meme. Rome was in decline before Christianity's acceptance.
>>314597
Consider that the icon of Stoicism Epictetus was literally a slave, in other words it really is slave's way of viewing the world. Consider that it's the perfect philosophy to adopt when things are beyound your control and you are always being controlled by others.
That isn't to say Stoicism was as bad as Christianity, it's not hostile to the 'evil master' it's instead a way to float through life. Sort of like Buddihism.
>>314730
In general the idea is that a declining society produces weak, slave values. So the result of the slave's triumph is actually caused by the master. The Romans allowed their society to decay and within that decay brewed a philosophy of decay which made it much worst. A stronger Rome would have produced stronger philosophy. Philosophy is not conceived in vacuum.
It's sort of like how Nietzsche did not blame Socrates for corrupting society, he believed Socrates was just an a symptom.
>>314700
The Eastern Roman Empire was more Christian and lasted longer
>worshipping a jew or their own bootleg version of the greek pantheon
who knows
>>314843
Epictetus was a former slave.
He was the master of Arrian and Hadrian. If he wanted a public post or anything, he could just ask his pupils, that would do anything for him.
Marcus Aurelius was the Emperor and a follower of Epictetus, via the Discourses.
Also, Epictetus was correct on what is in your control and what isn't.
Marcus Aurelius was the Emperor of Rome. His only peer at the time was the Emperor of China, who he likely didn't even know existed.
And he agreed with Epictetus.
>>314899
>>314916
And there have been Christian Emperors. That doesn't mean Christianity is suddenely master morality.
Stoicism is not truly slave morality but it is some what a step down. It's a good philosopher, lots of truths. The problem, under Nietzscheanism, lies in certain approaches such as a hostility towards the passions.
My point is that you can often get a sense about the nature of a philosophy but looking at the environment that was conceived in or the type of person that made it.
>>314700
>not knowing pity and guilt make for the best warriors
Are we going to have this thread everyday?
>>314966
Stoicism was pretty much a philosophy for the Greek and Roman elites. For a time, THE philosophy of the Roman elite.
Control over your passions is very important for a ruler. Do you really want to be controlled by them?
Tokugawa Ieyasu created a dynasty that ruled Japan for generations. His entire philosophy was about controlling the passions.
>>315001
There are degree's of passion control. It's not a binary choose between being a wild animal and completely suppressing them.
Here is Tokugawa Ieyasu.
A great ruler.
The strong manly ones in life are those who understand the meaning of the word patience. Patience means restraining one's inclinations. There are seven emotions: joy, anger, anxiety, adoration, grief, fear, and hate, and if a man does not give way to these he can be called patient. I am not as strong as I might be, but I have long known and practiced patience. And if my descendants wish to be as I am, they must study patience
Victorian England and America became great empires. They had strong Christian values.
>>315057
What made them successful was the opposite of Christian values though. Do you really think Jesus would have approved of Manifest Destiny? If you applied the slave morality there we would be missing most of our states.
>>314726
Honorius did nothing wrong.
>>315072
Indian slaughter was actually fairly political, they had kings and they would do diplomacy with the settlers in spite of no language. It wasnt until the 13 states united and defeated britain that it was game over for them, and iirc some of them fought for the u.s. as mercenaries.
>>314968
man, those spurs are gold
GOLD
>>314646
What the hell are you talking about, before Marian only landowners could serve in the army. After Marian's reforms their numbers swelled.
>>314566
Stoicism is as old as the Roman republic but wouldn't be introduced to the Roman people until their conquest of Greece. Late stoicism goes paired with some of the finest management of the Empire (under the five good Emperors).
No, it was just a stronger meme.
If you accept it as your religion it becomes a very strong motivator, not to sacrifice to the gods as other religions, but to help others because of eternal salvation.
Christians would dominate charities in the big cities, the people helped by the charities would be inspired to join Christianity and establish more charities.
The (Western) Roman empire fell for completely other reasons than Christianity. The Christian Roman Empire didn't fall before 1453 AD.
>>314497
Christianity is against pagan values.
>>315131
Vanity.
>>317526
the Ethiopians were the second nation in the world to accept christianity as their state religion
>>317539
>contains direct quotes from primary sources
>contains artwork from the period
>troll
>>317554
It doesn't, though. Stop ruining this board. If there were sources you should have provided links to then.
>>317615
Are you Hebrew?
>>317554
Only a slave would want to destroy the image of the foundation of Western civilization.
