Okay so let me get this straight, the Soviet Union adopted state capitalist policies and they still collapsed and suffered economically?
>>314457
It didn't fix the tension with ethnreligious minorities, the repressions of freedoms, and the already-established discontent with the regime. Gorbachev's reforms with failures because it was too little, too late. It only made them want and demand more changes.
>>314475
That's not what happened. A poll was taken throughout the USSR, right before Yeltsin's illegal seizure of power and repression of protesters, and the vast majority of people said the USSR should stay as is.
>>314535
>Yeltsin's illegal seizure of power
>overthrow well working government
>take everyone's wealth
>build a system of "universal love and brother hood"
>fail horribly
>get taken over by a iron fisted genocidal maniac
Communism dindu nuffin
>>314535
No. The referendum considered drastic reformation, well beyond what the Soviet Union then or later would allow.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union_referendum,_1991
>"Do you consider necessary the preservation of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics as a renewed federation of equal sovereign republics in which the rights and freedom of an individual of any nationality will be fully guaranteed?"
>>314567
This.
Is this yet another retarded Russian meme on par with "Brezhnev was Ukrainian" and "Americans signed a treaty about not expanding NATO"?
>>314556
They never took anyone's wealth pat from the decadent feudalistic kulaks and that of the bourgeois industrialists.
Lenin had the right idea, but both Stalin and Trotsky fucked it up, one made it a totalitarian bureaucracy and the other insisted on irrelevant and insane things like permanent revolution.
>>314556
>well working government
Yeah feudalism was so nice. Just ask the serfs.
>>314582
>feudalistic
>this fucker thinks there was still feudalism and serfdom in 1917 Russia
Can't tell if retarded or just a victim of propaganda
>>314556
>late Tsarist Russia
>well working
Even the worst parts of the Soviet Union were still massive improvements over that shitfest
>>314457
Yeltsin a pussy, Putin-clones should have seized power immediately
>>314615
But Putin is economically illiterate
>>314623
I meant the KGB
>state capitalism
This concept is sketchy, even if it does exist, it's more aplicable to post-war Western European countries such as France and Italy, where the state sector led the development of capitalism, than the Soviet Union.
That's just a way for Western communists to pretend that the Soviet Union didn't had anything to do with them, "they weren't real communism bro, they were state capitalists".
The fun thing is that when during the time period when Soviet communism held sway over the Western intelligentsia, few people actually used this term. Beatrice and Sidney Webb, George Bernard Shaw, Andre Gide, Pablo Picasso, Albert Einstein, Jean-Paul Sartre, Simone de Beauvoir and other fanboys of the Soviet Union, they were all sure that the Soviet system was good enough, or, as Lincoln Steffens said, "I've seen the future, and it works".
It's only when the Soviet Union became less repressive and a better country overall that the Western intelligentsia abandoned them, which just shows their moral bankruptcy.
>>314582
>Trotsky fucked it up
>not Stalin
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Stalin ice that fucker before he did anything of particular note?
>>314640
And they were economically illiterate
The KGB had jobs to secure slush funds for the SU leadership but they obviously fucked that one up
>>314593
>lengthy civil war resulting in millions of casualties
>4 fucking famines within 25 years
>deporting or killing the entire aristocratic elite of your nation, resulting in complete social destruction
"massive improvement"
>>314644
Trotsky was a total failure. His "worldwide revolution" was stopped in fucking Poland of all places.
>>314644
No, he ice axed him.
Communism failed? Socialism failed?
WHAT A SHOCKER!
>>314796
How could Yeltsin's coup be illegal if the USSR was an illegal country to begin with?
>>314588
feudalism did exist in 1917 Russia you retard, the serfs were obliged to to pay a sum of their profit to he big peasant landowners.
>>314815
>illegal country
>a recognized nation and member of the UN
>>314815
>represented on the UN
>recognized by everyone
>illegal country
Wew lad
>>314674
Capitalism has also failed.
Actually it has always failed for 90% of the population in all of it's history.
>>314796
IT was one the basis of complete and equal federation for a country that was for almost its entire existence under Russia's yoke. It said that each SSR would be treated as a sovereign nation.
That is huge.
>>314848
>>314850
>the UN
>>314859
Except even the classified poor in America have refrigerators and access to plentiful amounts of food.
Would you rather live in a communist "utopia" and starve to death?
>>314859
But that 90% of its population is better off than the 90% of the population under socialist nations
>>314873
>paying taxes is feudalism
Well, according to Hayek... :)
>>314859
Aaaand the clueless communist has arrived folks!
>>314859
This is you.
>>314927
I never questioned that nostalgia for it is a thing, but it's exemplified by a quote by my man Putin.
>>314904
a lower argument than name calling desu
>>314880
>welp, let's get the presses rolling lads, turns out the United Nations has less legitimacy to declave what is or isn't a sovereign nation than one shitposting Anon on the Internet
The country was already doomed when Gorbachev took power.
>>314457
Holy fucking shit it's almost like literally any economic system, form of government, and national social policy, pretty much any way of running a nation that can every be thought up of will eventually be exploited for the flaws it will inevitably have, and instead of just thinking "apply this thing=good stuff" isn't going to fucking work ever and instead we should develop a system that works with the current situation, issues, and conflicts by recognizing legitimate issues that need to be solved.
Man you know there's also this feeling that I've been getting that hardcore conservatism and trying to keep the system the same way forever without ever adapting or evolving to a changing world can lead to the eventual stagnation and destruction of a civilization.
>>314891
What are you comparing those indexes.
China,India, Latin America (with the exception of Cuba and Venezuela) are all Capitalists. Do you really think gdp growth refers to individuals, classes or even the reduction of poverty.
People produce more shit than ever, but the disparity between the rich and poor has grown.
>>314891
Nobody actually starved in Soviet Russia because of the Soviets.
Famine in Russia existed only during the Czar and the Civil War.
>serfdom nominally abolished in 1861
>gradually weeded out completely by 1905
>B-BUT THIS WAS STILL FEUDALISM AS THEY HAD TO PAY PROPERTY TAX
Well see, even ignoring that this is completely wrong, I legit can't understand how getting all of your property seized by the sovkhoz and getting your ass shipped to gulag if you dare disagree is somehow preferable.
>>314970
I invade your house at night, decapitate you and your children and then burn the whole place down. If some retards from the other side of the planet give me their nod I'm now somehow the legitimate owner and not a criminal.
>>314995
>Famine in Russia existed only during the Czar and the Civil War.
Is this bait?
>>314995
It is the degree of economic freedom you commie retard. It is the degree to which free market exchanges are interfered with or banned by state forces. Being able to buy a big mac in every country on earth does not make every country on earth equal in regards to individuals' abilities to start new businesses in any field they desire, their ability to craft new products or services to the degree they desire, their ability to work in any industry that they so desire to work in, etc.
>>314999
Are said retards legally empowered as the ones who ca6n decide matters of ownership regarding propriety?
Because if so, well then I guess you are, sucks to be me I guess, unless I have some other, higher body to appeal of their decision to.
Although you're still going to answer for the murders probably.
>>314995
>Do you really think gdp growth refers to individuals, classes or even the reduction of poverty.
Economic freedom correlates with all of those things though
>>315025
Going by your logic, Yeltsin's regime is equally legitimate since it was recognized by the UN. Can't have it both ways :^)
>>314995
Even the lowest classes of economically free societies fair better than the lowest classes of economically repressed societies
>>314995
But latin america for all it is trouble is doing better than before (maybe with the exception of Venezuela), you act as if people in the past lived in luxury and capitalism invented poverty.
>>315004
Holodomor was in Ukraine, not Russia.
>>315024
Are there people really as blind as you to the economic situation that exists globally?
Economic freedom doesn't mean shit, get that Hayek dick out of your mouth, because free markets have never existed. The movement of capital has been the same since Capitalism's inception in 16th century Amsterdam.
Gdp is how much is produced per capita, not how much "economic freedom" there is you dim lolbertarian.
>>315049
>government interference in the economy doesn't depress economic output
>depressed economic output doesn't mean generally lower standards of living
Have you considered social capitalism, or some other ideology that actually works?
>>315044
Thats because there is a huge disparity between the cheap labor of the Third World and the concentration of Capital in the First World.
It has nothing to do with economic freedom, a sweat shop in Malaysia is more "economically fee" than any country in the EU..
Damn are really libertarians that dumb?
>>315049
>You're wrong!
>Because your facts disagree with my worldview
Keep living in your mom's basement comrade.
>>315035
Well I guess that's a matter for whoever it was that talking about Yeltsin's regime to argue about then :^)
Can everyone just read David Kotz' book on the subject?
>>315049
>Holodomor was in Ukraine
Except for Galicia and Carpathian Ruthenia, Ukraine was a part of both Russian empire and the USSR.
>not Russia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1932%E2%80%9333
and it was largely a result of this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism
>commies literally thought genetics are a capitalist lie
So much for "scientific basis of socialism"
>>315049
So it's just a weird coincidence that the disparity in this map closely correlates with the former Iron Curtain
>>315118
>turkey is richer than Ukraine
Well fuck
You can't directly compare income between capitalist and socialist countries because the government provides most things in the latter.
>>315160
>six famines in 30 years in just the USSR alone
>famines in China
>famines in North Korea
>famines in Vietnam
Sure they provided a lot.
>>315160
Poverty in capitalism:
>I CAN ONLY AFFORD ONE CAR
>I CAN ONLY AFFORD ONE TV
>I CAN ONLY AFFORD TO EAT FAST FOOD
Poverty in socialism:
>can't even afford bread
>>315143
Ukraine is the africa of Europe, it's infested with african levels of HIV too. We should let Putin have Crimea, Donetsk and the whole country if he wants it.
>>315160
You can though.
The government services come from somewhere, and GDP measures both government expenditure and private consumption.
>>315143
Communism, not even once.
>>315198
>Ukraine is the africa of Europe, it's infested with african levels of HIV too.
True for Russia as well.
>>315185
There are no famines in Europe.
Just European colonies in Africa.
Wow, so much better.
>>315191
Yeah I'm sure nigerians and guatemalans can only afford one var and one tv
>>315204
What are you even talking about now? European colonies in Africa pretty much don't exist nowadays.
It's also interesting how a socialist/marxist Mugabe turned a prosperous country into a starving shit hole.
>>315204
>Ukraine has among the most fertile soil on the planet
>Ukraine is Europe's breakbasket
>communism comes to Ukraine
>Ukraine ends up having a famine
Capitalism isn't perfect, but it isn't a universal, 100% trip to failuretown like communism is.
>>315211
Let's compare apples to apples.
Czechoslovakia vs Austria
Estonia vs Finland
North Korea vs South Korea
East Germany vs West Germany
All equally developed / rich initially but the one that adopted communism ended up fuck poor while the one sticking to capitalism became wealthy.
>>315204
Some of the worst famines in Africa happened in socialist/communist countries such as Ethiopia and Tanzania.
>>315049
>Holodomor was in Ukraine, not Russia.
Ukrainian nationalists like to believe that Stalin magically created famine conditions and that they affected only the Ukraine, but they're touched idiots.
>>314457
>Okay so let me get this straight, the Soviet Union adopted state capitalist policies and they still collapsed and suffered economically?
State capitalism is the cliffite formulation, generally.
Yes, the value form circulated in the Soviet Union. No, after 1983 the Western Capitalists solved their problem with circulation of value through financialisation, through the reenclosure of socialist spaces in the West, and through Just-in-Time labour discipline. All three of these options were impossible for the Eastern Capitalists and they failed, except in China and Vietnam where Doi Moi and its Chinese equivalent are exactly the same as the strategy pursued by Thatcher, Reagan, Hawke-Keating or Roger.
>>315211
If we're talking about Africa then I'd rather live in (capitalist) Botswana than in the neighboring (socialist) Zimbabwe.
>>315239
>American puppet states "do better" (in the long run) at international economics than states that are self-governing and economically isolated by American empire
Okay senpai
>>315257
>Finland
>Austria
>American puppets
Top kek. Finland in particular was officially neutral and VERY friendly with the USSR thanks to Kekkonen. They however, never adopted a planned economy, hence why their country didn't end up a failure like Estonia.
>>315257
>Finland
>American puppet state
Are you even trying?
>>315257
The USSR had a GDP the size of the US for the 50s and 60s?
Why didn't the power bloc of the USSR and PRC not provide the same economic opportunities as NATO?
>because centrally planned economies aren't as good
>>315240
>Emperor's government and upper class seizes land from farmers
>80k people die from famine
>Emperor's only course of action is to violently suppress that this happened
>Of course this fails and the Derg come in with popular support and dispose of the monster regime that caused these famines to happen
>fast-foward to today
>"Some of the worst famines in Africa happened in socialist/communist countries such as Ethiopia and Tanzania"
>Liberals
>>315249
>China and Vietnam
Thanks to pro-market policies China and Vietnam aren't Cambodia-tier shitholes now.
Stalin nationalized everything and enforced command economy.
Khrushchev reformed economy.
Brezhnev undid reforms.
and so on until Gorbachev. Who then tried to introduce market economy and state capitalism. Then a couple coup de tats and we get Yeltsin. Yeltsin was an alcoholic, even by East Slav standards.
Economy improving but corruption everywhere.
Putin takes over. Oil and Gas boom. a few token reforms.
>>315298
The great famine in Ethiopia, the one that killed 500.000 people, happened in the mid-80s, when the Derg had been ruling for almost a decade
>>315336
The point is anti-communists use famines as a meme as if socialism magically makes famines occur and every other system doesn't. Famines occur for a multitude of reasons and people in famines die for a multitude of reasons. of course the most common examples, the Ukraine and China, are areas famous for famine, but that's always ignored. There were record low rainfalls all over Ethiopia during the 80's famine. Did the Derg do that? There was anti-government violence occurring at the same time. These things exacerbate each other.
Frankly, trying to get points off of dead people is embarrassing and immoral, I'm tired of people doing it desu. yes I realize I'm on 4chan.
>>315389
>socialism magically makes famines occur
It's called "collectivization."
>>315389
>Ukraine
>famous for famine
Nigger, Ukraine experienced more famines in the 20th century than during the last 500 years before communism combined. But yeah, let's pretend that the fact they had a socialist government is just some strange coincidence.
>>315458
It certainly deserves better than retards claiming Ukraine is "famous for famine." It literally fucking isn't.
>>314873
>>literally took the country by force, executed its head without trial and slaughtered millions of people
>Implying might doesn't make right.
>being this much of a pathetic fuccboi
>mfw
>>315498
>might makes right
Well your socialist "might" collapsed on itself so you can go fuck yourself with your edgelord philosophy.
>>314535
The USSR was already unravelling during the 80s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh_War
Not to mention the Baltic shit that had been stewing the past 40 years. If the USSR hadn't broken up just a couple years later, nationalism/Islamism would most likely still go on and become worse.
This had a multitude of reasons. Although personally I am a fan of Gorbachev and his attempts, I have to admit his glasnost came to rapidly and allowed separatist sentiment to spread unchecked, contributing to the unrest.
>>315522
>edgelord philosophy
>simple real politik
>edgy
>concept as old as history
>edgy
your teen angst projection is showing bro. Stop being a fucking retard and read a book.
>>315539
Maybe when you grow out of your early 20s you'd understand we have these things called "rules" which prevent people like me from breaking into your house and raping your entire family f a m
>>315549
hahahahahahahahahaha holy shit
Kids pure capitalism and pure socialism don't exist in the real world. Politicians use them to get what they want when it fits them.
>>315571
No shit captain Obvious. The problem with socialism is that the corrupt politicians you're talking about assume pretty much total control over society.
>>314662
You forgot
>purging the entire army of experienced soldiers just in time for WW2
>starving entire regions empty, then repopulating them with Russians
But whatever, bourgeoisie lies.
>>315608
The problem with capitalism is the exact same thing happens, except that the politicians are themselves being controlled.
>>314457
The Soviet state was destroyed by the Cold War. American policy didn't bring the USSR down, but its insistence on polar symmetry and winning an unwinnable war against the American colossus brought the union to its knees.
Russia could never afford to have such a massive military, and this paired with domestic economic crises led to widespread poverty.
>>314873
That's no more illegal than the formation of like half of all Latin American and African states
>everyone is the soviet union was starving all the time
>there where no breadlnes or starvation in the US
>Africa wasn't exploited for it's natural resources, niggers can't just from an government
>Yeltisn was not a corrupt autocrat
What the fuck am I reading? This is not on the level of "communism doesn't work" and then an actual argument for why that's the case - it's just simple bullshit.
>>315483
Dude, not that guy - but it's fucking basic history that the later Qing and Romanovs suffered several famines that increased social tensions. Social tensions might cause wars, and wars generally result in even more famines because everybody is out dying instead of plowing their fields.
People don't magically overthrow their government because some balding guy in a cap told them to.
>>316251
>>everyone is the soviet union was starving all the time
No, but a lot of people died from them. 7 million in Ukraine alone.
>>there where no breadlnes or starvation in the US
Only really during economic recessions. Poverty in the US is completely different from poverty around the rest of the world.
>>Africa wasn't exploited for it's natural resources, niggers can't just from an government
Actually, probably less than 1% of resources were taken from Africa. Sure it was "exploited", but we brought infrastructure and culture globally. I don't know why this is relevant. Colonialism isn't Capitalism.
>>Yeltisn was not a corrupt autocrat
Boris at least saw how retarded the system was.
>What the fuck am I reading? This is not on the level of "communism doesn't work" and then an actual argument for why that's the case - it's just simple bullshit.
>>315691
>>purging the entire army of experienced soldiers just in time for WW2
>the Russian Empire didn't have an army guies
>communism made them all good soldiers magically
>>316251
>>there where no breadlnes or starvation in the US
>millions upon millions of people starve in the communists regimes
how many people starved in the US again?
please remind me
I'd really like to see the statistics
>>316287
I'm talking about the gommies purging the army my senpai
>>315203
>Romania
I'm oddly proud.
Communism doesnt work for one simple reason. You're putting the economy in the hand of politicians who use the economy to solve social issues instead of businessmen who use the economy to make a profit and expand their business whilst competing with others, this leading to innovation and lowering of prices
>>314993
Stop fucking being logical and get back to shitposting
>>315049
Holodomor was in the USSR, unless you're implying it wasn't?
>>315257
>America is better at keeping their friends happy and well-fed than their competitors
>Russia , meanwhile, struggles to feed its own population, much less their friends
Thanks for finally seeing sense?
>>316933
And organization ability dosen't match the requirements.
>>315203
>there are countries where 15% of the population has aids
Jesus Christ.
>>314556
>well working government
AYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
>>314642
State capitalism means that the capital and means of production in the nation are owned by the state. What about that is difficult to understand?
>>314859
>Capitalism has also failed
>t. poor person :DDDD
I can literally make a shit ton of money doing all kinds of "hobby" like things, in a Communist system I can't.
>>317314
Botswana actually has a rate of 25%, Swaziland has a rate of 26%, and Lesotho has a rate of 23%.
>>314669
He axed him icely.
>>314457
Russia has been a powerful but generally pathetic state for most of its existence. They failed at Feudalism, communism and now capitalism. I feel sorry for the average guy living there.
>>315024
>follow the the dominant capitalist world system's rules, by preparing yourself to become competitive via state direction (South Korea, Japan, etc.) and/or submitting yourself to foreign capital to exploit (China, etc.)
>you suddenly have some access to the world's capitalist-controlled wealth and resources, and living standards improve
>don't follow the rules
>no/limited access
>limited potential for growth
magic
>>318483
>dominant capitalist world system
Why do you think it's dominant?
>my repeated failure demonstrates my moral superiority
>>318533
>why do you think it's dominant
Is this a serious question? Capitalism's been dominant in production and control of world wealth/resources since at least the mid-19th century.
>>318589
Why do you think that is?
>Hint: It's because it's a superior method of economic coordination
