Was National Socialist Germany actual a socialist country?
yes, but not in the modern globalist sense.
"We don't say to the rich 'Give to the poor', we say 'German people, help each other'. Rich or poor, each one must help thinking, there's someone even poorer than I am, and I want to help them as a fellow countryman."
-The H man himself
>>310828
Yes, it was a totalitarian socialist society.
>>310841
Nice rhetoric, but both mean the same. Give your money to the state.
>>310828
It's fascist.
Fascism is the idea that nation above everything.
Above communists, above socialists, above capitalists.
"I absolutely insist on protecting private property... we must encourage private initiative."
- The H man himself, who also destroyed unions and killed socialists and labor organizers
>>310888
>>310870
>>310842
>>310828
Most Americans are taught in school that fascism is a ruthless one party dictatorship, the most popular example being Nazi Germany. This is first off a misconception.
Fascism is a political economy, not merely a political system that existed in one moment of history. Fascism is the complete control of the state by monopoly capital. Fascism is corporate government. Fascism is the last stage of capitalism where the relationship between the state and corporation becomes indiscernible. The supreme god of a fascist, to which his ends are directed, may be money or power; may be a race or a class; may be a military, clique or an economic group; or may be a culture, religion, or a political party.
>Corporate government
>Destroying unions
That shouldn't sound too foreign to us Americans :^)
No, Nazi Germany wasn't a socialist country, that's wrong.
>>310917
That's also wrong.
>>310917
Forgot to add
>Militaristic
>>310917
>Fascism is the complete control of the state by monopoly capital. Fascism is corporate government. Fascism is the last stage of capitalism where the relationship between the state and corporation becomes indiscernible.
Fuck off with that babby-tier marxist analysis of fascism and go read a book.
Fascism and socialism are two sides of the same coin.
>>310920
>Nazi Germany wasn't a socialist country
Uhuh, they just called themselves socialists for fun. That's also why the majority of early party members were vehement socialists.
>>310917
The state is subservient to capital in America.
In fascism, capital is subservient to the state. It also has some other characteristics that America currently doesn't possess. It's a very specific ideology and shouldn't be confused with just Nationalism or Militarism etc.
Not only is your analysis overly simplistic, it is also fundamentally incorrect.
>>310926
No they're not. Stop posting and go read a book, moron.
>>310938
Also completely wrong. I'd like to see a source because no credible historian would ever say that.
Class antagonism is a necessary part of socialism, and so is internationalism. Fascists argue for class collaboration within a nation. Any socialist who knew what they were talking about would have hated fascism immediately.
>>310938
National Socialist Germany didn't expropriate private property or nationalize any industry of note, it cooperated and directed private capital, that doesn't make it any more socialist than Gaullist France or post-war Japan.
What they called themselves is irrelevant, and the "majority" of early party members were street thugs or nationalist LARPers, unlike Mussolini in Italy, no influential Nazi was ever recognized as a member of the international socialist movement.
>>310926
>>310920
>That's also wrong.
No it isnt.
If either of you knew anything about fascism besides "LOL HITLER" you would know a thing or two about its implications on political economy. Fascism does not have to always involve goose-step marching.
The merging of corporate and state institutions is a fascist economy. Not a liberal economy, not a socialist economy. A fascist economy.
http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Fascism.html
>>310968
>merging of corporate and state institutions is a fascist economy
It's true, that can be a definition of fascism, though that would include a lot of post-war economies of the developed world (though not America).
That's still wrong though.
>Fascism is the complete control of the state by monopoly capital
>Fascism is the last stage of capitalism
This narrative was created in the Soviet Union during the 1930s to discredit fascists that called themselves anti-capitalists and revolutionaries. It doesn't have any historical and theoretical basis other that "it was what was convenient for Stalin at the moment", just like other concepts he invented to justify his power politics (aggravation of class struggle under socialism, for example).
>>310959
Why is internationalism a necessary part of socialism?
>>310828
They only supported corporations that supported the nation.
>>310917
t. gommie
>>310828
When the NSDAP came into power it was seen as explicitly anti-Bolshevik, which implied reversal of policies of nationalization and regulation (particularly of wages) under former governments. To be sure you had plenty of public projects, but generally it wasn't anything unusual or particularly leftist if you consider what happened in other western countries (France, US). If anything it was milder state intervention.
This was reversed when they started gearing towards war, and Germany was in the process of becoming pretty much a planned economy on par with the soviet union (although private property was not abolished), including the introduction of direct price controls. In general however the NS party tried to avoid socialism as it was unpopular with their base, so from 38 or so you get tight price controls just to avoid nationalizations. So in a sense it was socialist in denial.
Interesting fact: the term "privatization" in the sense of selling off government owned assets, was first coined in relation to NS Germany. I think it was y a western paper, The Economist or something of this sort.
>>310977
>Communist lies.
Nope. This is what a fascist economy looks like:
>The citizen in the Fascist State is no longer a selfish individual who has the anti-social right of rebelling against any law of the Collectivity. The Fascist State with its corporative conception puts men and their possibilities into productive work and interprets for them the duties they have to fulfill.
- Mussolini
Worrh mentioning also, before his foray into imperialism in 1935, Mussolini was often praised by prominent Americans and Britons, including Winston Churchill, for his economic program.
Similarly, Adolf Hitler, whose National Socialist (Nazi) Party adapted fascism to Germany beginning in 1933. Both nations exhibited elaborate planning schemes for their economies in order to carry out the state’s objectives. Under Mussolini labor and management were organized into twenty-two industry and trade “corporations,” each with Fascist Party members as senior participants. The corporations were consolidated into a National Council of Corporations.
Fascism is state and corporation working in unison.
>>311003
>>311003
Hitlerite Germany was not corporativist, though. The direction of the economy was much more centralized than in Italy, Austria, etc. Germany fooled around with corporativism in the early 1930s but it didn't do the job adequately.
You have to remember Germany was becoming more and more centralized since the late 19th century. Their industrialization was always managed largely by the state, with corporations taking a back seat for the most part (this was the rule particularly in the heavy industry). Robert Ley, Schacht, Goering et al weren't doing anything particularly new.
>>311003
If you think "corporation" for Mussolini meant the same thing as "corporation" in the modern world (basically private companies and business enterprises) you are more dumb than I thought.
>>311027
I know it's wikipedia, but it's just a introduction anyway.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism
That vision of society was more influential in post-war social democratic Europe, such as Sweden and Germany, with it's tripartite agreements between trade unions, employers' organizations, and the government that in America.
Which is why when you associate this kind of fascism with Ronald Reagan economic liberalism, you are being retarded >>310917
>>310992
That post doesn't refute or even address anything I said. It also doesn't support what you said either, which is that fascism and socialism are two sides of the same coin.
>>310984
It might not be a necessary part per se, but the two major socialist schools that the vast majority of socialists subscribe to, Marxism and Anarchism, both embrace internationalism for different reasons.
Marxism because Capitalism is a global system with an international bourgeoisie and proletariat. Thus, it is in the interest of the international proletariat to unite and revolt to seize the means of production in every nation.
Anarchism because both private ownership of capital and the state and fundamentally coercive and hierarchical, and thus should be abolished in favor of more horizontal structures.
You could try to make it work within a single nation but you would be obliterated by capitalists because a successful socialist society would be a threat to their control of property within their own countries.
>>310996
There is nothing inherently socialist about nationalization or central planning, and many socialists would disagree with those policies.
>>311029
>That post doesn't refute or even address anything I said
Read Hayek's "Road to Serfdom".
And stop being a stupid commie.
>It also doesn't support what you said either, which is that fascism and socialism are two sides of the same coin.
Fascism and socialism both advocate collectivism. Replace "proletariat" by "aryan race" and "bourgeois" by "jew" and you get essentially the same thing.
>>311029
>There is nothing inherently socialist about nationalization or central planning, and many socialists would disagree with those policies.
This is true in the contemporary sense. But in the first half of the 20th century those notions tended to go hand in hand. The main thesis of Marxists, such as those of the Second Internationale, was that ever growing centralization and nationalization would lead in its own way to socialism, even if not nominally. There were divergent views from this thesis (on person who railed against it was a certain Ulyanov) but it was the type of economic determinism was very common (see Hilferding, Kautsky...). This also stood in the basis of the SPD's attitude towards Hitler during some years, since it concluded the NSDAP is not dangerous since it can't back down from interventionist policies and hence from socialism.
By the way, corporativism, the way it was introduced by Mussolini and particularly by more catholic regimes such as Dollfuss in Austria and Primo in Spain, was seen as an attempt to avoid centralization and as strangely enough a more "liberal" economic system.
>>311033
>Read Hayek's "Road to Serfdom".
LOL
You could simplify any two things down to such a degree that you end up with superficial similarities that don't mean anything when you actually think for a second.
>>311027
>>311028
>implying neoliberalism isnt just fascism lite with the only difference being a matter of who is on top
>>311033
>Fascism and socialism both advocate collectivism. Replace "proletariat" by "aryan race" and "bourgeois" by "jew" and you get essentially the same thing.
1. Communism =/= socialism
2. neither race nor class warfare is what makes those countries fascist or socialist
>>311028
>Ronald Reagan
>Liberalism
>>311085
I'm not even remotely /pol/. But your clueless sloganeering ruins this thread.
>>311091
You think I'm a liberal? Please, American liberals are about as clueless as American conservatives. Discussing political economy goes way over heads in American public discourse.
>>311202
>neoliberalism
...is a leftist meme. No one on the right calls themselves "neoliberal". The left could at least act in enough decency as to not make up analytic concepts and squeeze their opponents into them.
>>311311
how bout you stop generalizing about the left as though they can collectively make decisions or have the same points of view
>>311321
Your point being?
>>310843
>Being this retarded
Well, many companies were run privately in the third Reich. There was a lot of gov regulation but still, the private sector was pretty strong. Many people got incredibly rich. That doesn't sound very socialist, now does it?
>>311360
exactly what i said, stop generalizing
Why are there so many leftists here? Please fuck off back to Reddit you fucking lunatics.
>>311438
Your point being?
>>311442
That you are mentally ill and should seek help.
>>311442
You already have tens of history subreddits. Fuck off to your website.
>>311438
>Waahh stop having opinions
This isn't a hug box. Fuck off somewhere else if all you want is a circle jerk. You're just as fucking bad as the stupidity elsewhere.
>>310828
No, unless you are American enough to think welfare and full employment are super-socialist policies.
>>311462
Someone's feelings are not opinions you fucking lunatic.
>>311466
>you fucking lunatic.
How is this is not a feeling? No need to dismiss the opposition in a sweeping manner. Smells of irrationality to me
>>311485
It's a fact, seek help.
>>311492
I'm not the guy you were just responding to
>>311466
>All lefties should go
This place from the beginning was created for numerous and often conflicting points of view to be discussed. There is no one ideological identity to 4chan.
Crying about how leftists need to go to their own website is just as cancerous as Reddit and tumblr and precisely what makes those places devoid of anything meaningful.
>y-you're a lunatic
Fuck off and kill yourself. You're an embarrassment to the very spirit of this site.
You should seek mental help if you can't even handle civil discourse.
>>>/pol/
>>>/leftypol/
>>>/reddit/
etc,
>>311103
>this thread
>>311501
Are you the illiterate French guy?
Corporation in the sense of "corporativism"=\=corporation in the sense of business enterprise. Please learn the basic concepts before engaging in a debate.
>>311507
Ah, sorry , language barrier misconsumption.
>>310926
Yeah, Sweden is fascist as fuck
>>310938
But they actually did. They hijacked the socialist party, gained power, and murdered the socialists in the night.
>>311544
>Still thinking Scandinavia is socialist
>>310938
>>311548
Pre-1934 NSDAP was legit anti-capitalist. Rohm, Strasser and all those guys.
>>310917
So Marxist, so wrong. Read some Griffin. You can't just call everything totalitarian and not explicitly socialist, fascist.
>>311438
>Waahhh stop having different opinions
Does pointing out similarities between neoliberals and fascists make you uncomfortable? If so my work is done.
>>312287
Please provide an official document stating your age.
>>312301
Please provide an official go fuck yourself. Nice ad hom.
It was a socialist movement until Hitler collaborated with wealthy German industrialists and got actual socialists murdered. After that, it was fascism.
>>310917
>this is what leftist actually believe
>tripfag
>>311384
>being this natsoc
>>312341
>>311558
These. Hitler was a filthy spineless traitor.
>>310828
>run by jews
of course!
>>312342
>lol leftist
Nice meme. Except I probably hate American liberals more than you do.
>>312353
HAHA THAT FAGGOT GOT A THRUSTING HE WONT SOON FORGET
>>312387
>Except I probably hate American liberals more than you do.
yeah, because they arent cvcks enough.
True leftist fashion. slaughter and hate not only people who disagree with you, but those who dont agree with you enough. Fuck off you LARPing sociopath
>>310959
>The state is subservient to capital in America.
>In fascism, capital is subservient to the state.
So, you're implying the only difference between neoliberalism and fascism is "who is on top"? LOL
>>312391
>Himmler
Ultimate untermensch
>>312394
What the fuck are you talking about. Are you incapable of debating an idea?
>>312405
This is you.
>>310828
I'm inclined to believe they saw them selves as a socialist nation.
That being said so many definitions have been used for socialism and so many diffrent froms of state and nation called socialist that one moer won't hurt
>>312402
nah, faggots are the ultimate untermensch.
thats why ubermensch himmler killed them :^)
>>312417
Not really but whatever.
Congratulations, your only means of engaging in argument is by putting fingers in your ear and going "la la la la I cant hear you". You must be proud.
>>312421
Himmler committed suicide so your theory sounds accurate.
He was also a Mongoloid looking manlet and one of the main reasons why Germany lost.
>>312424
Don't know bruh, my family has a history of hanging communists from lamp posts so obviously I don't want to debate with you. Never pretended I did.
>>312437
>my family has a history of hanging communists from lamp posts so obviously I don't want to debate with you
>True leftist fashion. slaughter and hate not only people who disagree with you, but those who dont agree with you enough.
I'm going to stop replying to you now, because you aren't worth my time.
>>312450
>NEET faggot
>implying
>Communist
>implying
>hurr what is ad hom
Sorry for the mix up between you and that other poster. I should specify: you aren't worth my time either.
>>312434
>Himmler committed suicide
thats a kike lie, they poisoned him so he couldnt refute their case.
>one of the main reasons why Germany lost.
the main reason germany lost is because adolf didnt give himmler more power even sooner.
himmler wouldve exterminated all the subhuman malcontents by 1940 and have mass produced the sturmgewehr. the war wouldve been over by 42.
>>312475
>himmler wouldve exterminated all the subhuman malcontents by 1940
So he'd kill himself even eariler?
I mean look at this mug. Does it scream "good racial stock" to you?
>>312483
his results did.
>>310828
No, it wasn't.
https://www.docdroid.net/Fy4c7zW/germany-2.pdf.html
>>310828
>democratic
Nope
>national guaranteed standard of living
Nope
>destruction or nationalization of parasitic industries such as banking
Nope
>supporting the workers' right to organize
Nope
Conclusion: no.
>>312493
>results
>losing the war
Yup he sure did great.
>manlet
>mongoloid
>glasses
>generally sickly looking
Such genetic trash wouldn't be allowed to rule shit in a society that actually has some racial standards.
>>312509
faggots sure get upset because himmler pointed out that they destroy civilizations.
>>312533
>being this South American
baka sudacas never learn
>>312533
>not being a cuntslave
>destroying civilization
Everything bad in society can be actually traced to women.
>>312546
'I ask you to keep this in mind. We have in Germany according to the latest census probably 67 to 68 million people, which means, counting very roughly, about 34 million men. Therefore there are approximately 20 million sexually potent men (i.e. men over 16 years old). The estimated number may be off by a million, but that does not matter.
If I assume the number of one to two million homosexuals, it is clear that about 7 or 8 or 10% of the men in Germany are homosexual. If this remains the case, it means that our nation (Volk) will be destroyed (lit. „go kaputt”) by this plague. A nation will not endure in the long run if the balance and equilibrium between the sexes is disrupted in this manner.
Furthermore if you take into consideration the fact, which I have not yet mentioned, that, with the number of women remaining constant, we have around two million men too few (that many having died in the war), then you can imagine how the enormity of two million homosexuals and two million dead, therefore altogether of around four million missing from the number of men capable of having sex, upsets the balance of the sexes in Germany and is leading to catastrophe.
I would like to go over with you a couple of ideas on the issue of homosexuality. Among the homosexuals there are those who take the view: what I do is nobody else’s business, it is a purely private matter. However, all things which happen in the sexual sphere are not the private affair of the individual, but impinge upon the life and death of the nation and mean world power or swissification. A people which has many children has the qualifications for world power and world domination. A people of good race which has too few children has a sure ticket for the grave, for insignificance in 50 to 100 years, for burial in two hundred and fifty years.'
nah, himmler called you faggots destroying the west, and look, its happened.
>>312564
Men can still reproduce even if they're homos, women are nothing more than walking incubators, you c.uck.
Nazis would've genocided all Brazilians
>>312578
One of our greatest shames as a species is that we didn't let them.
>>312570
except they wont, dont and instead just claw for their own political power.
'Councillor X is homosexual and is not selecting on the basis of the merit-principle the assessors that he needs for his office in the government. He will not choose the best lawyer, he will not say that assessor X may not be the best lawyer, but he has received a good score, has been in the practice [of law], and, what is much more significant, looks good racially and is ideologically in order. No, he does not take a well-qualified and good looking assessor, but rather seeks out the one who is also a homosexual. These people know each other with a glance across a room. If at a dance you have 500 men, within a half hour they have mutually picked out those who have the same disposition as they. How that happens, we normal people cannot at all imagine.
The councillor seeks out the assessor who has the worst score and who is also ideologically out of order. He does not ask about his performance, but recommends him to the director of the ministry for appointment. He praises him and justifies his recommendation in detail. The assessor is now hired, for it will never occur to the director of the ministry to ask for greater details and to examine the hiring more closely because from the outset as an old official he assumes that the councillor’s recommendation is based on merit. The idea that the assessor has been recommended due to the similarity of his sexual predisposition does not enter the head of a normal man.
It does not stop with these two because the assessor, who is now a governmental official, will proceed on the same principle. If in a men-state you have a man with such a disposition in any position of authority, you are sure to find there three, four, eight, ten or even more men of a similar disposition; for one draws in another, and watch out if there are one or two normal men among these people; they are basically damned, they can do what they want but they will be ruined.'
>>312605
'Let me give you an example of a comrade from this very circle, for whom it went like this. SS-Obergruppenführer von Woyrsch was present in Silesia at the time of his struggle with the homosexual SA-Gruppenführer Heines and the homosexual Gauleiter and Oberpräsident Brückner. Since he was the man who upset this wonderful accord, he was persecuted not because, as was said, he is not like us, but always on moral, political, ideological – National-Socialist grounds.
Homosexuality therefore undoes in the state every merit, every basis for merit, and destroys the state in its foundations. That is not all: the homosexual is a thoroughly mentally-ill man. He is soft, he is in every crucial regard a coward. I believe that he can be brave here or there in war; in the field of civil courage however they are the most cowardly men that there are.'
faggots are worthless parasitic filth that usurp and destroy nations, himmler saw that. and hes been proven right. everything hes said has come true.
