Why don't we discuss the 3000+ years of recorded Chinese history?
This thread is dedicated to people who have questions or want to discuss Chinese history. Now of course 3000+ years is a lot and covering it all in just one thread will not do. So lets mainly talk about the rise of Taiping and the Qing Dynasty in its effort to modernize. Though any questions and discussion about other periods in Chinese history are welcomed.
I had a Western education therefore I know nothing of China aside from Europe selling China opium and the Boxer Rebellion.
On January 11, 1851,his 38 birthday, Hong Xiuquan formally declared the establishment of the Heavenly Kingdom of Peace (Taiping Tianguo) with himself as absolute ruler, at Jintian village in Guangxi. He ordained that he be called sovereign (chu) and reserved the title shang for God and Jesus.The rebellion was proclaimed to be a native uprising against the Manchu oppressors with a heavenly mandate.
Taiping's goal was not only to overthrow the ruling Manchu, but to modernize. The humiliating defeat China saw at the hand of the Western powers could not stand.
>>306803
The Opium wars is one of the leading reasons for the Taiping uprising. After the western powers rekt China, their whole world viewed collapsed, considering China had successfully dealt with them before. So of course, the population blamed the Manchu rulers.
>>306803
Did you only learn about the Opium wars and the Boxer Rebellion? It is strange that your history books, and teachers, never mention the Taiping Rebellion. Which is an important event since it had more casualties than the Great War.
>>306759
>太平天國
Apparently still the most devastating Civil War in known history (20-30 million casualties).
When writing Chinese places, titles, names etc. with the Latin alphabet, one should always use the correct notation for tones. It will make things easier to remember for everybody.
It's not Cao Cao, it is Cáo Cāo
It's not Beijing, it is Běijīng
It's not Nanjing, it is Nánjīng
So on.
(Nanjing means southern capitol, Beijing northern capitol)
>>306908
What's the correct intonation for @?
as in: ur an unfunny f@g
>>306857
>if Taiping was mentioned then it was only a sentence on the couple of pages mentioning China.
Well I would assume so. In our history classes about the Victorian Era and Imperialism, Taiping had one page dedicated to itself, just like the Meji Restoration. Taiping was an important event since it was the first Chinese, even East Asian [spoiler]to my knowledge[/spoiler] army to use "modern" European firearms and tactics, which forced the Qing to consider modernization and fired the Self-Strengthening Movement.
Little known fact, the Qing was actually the first state in Asia to build a modern navy and army. The reason this is credited to Japan is because an army and navy is worth shit if soldiers and your officers have zero training
https://www.youtube.co/watch?v=DisT4AB4xIQ
>>306897
I think the Three Kingdom Period had more casualties, but the we have more accurate estimates from the Taiping. It is crazy how disciplined the Taiping force was, even though it mostly consisted of peasants. They make Isis look like fucking ants.
>>306908
>using hanyu pinyin
Go back to Peking.
>>306926
>using Wade-Giles
Go back to the 1800's.
>>306926
>>306928
>not using Zhuyin
pleb
>>306925
The population was certainly larger (than in the Three Kingdom) and more connected in many ways and certainly very vulnerable to disruptions. It certainly didn't help both sides weren't above committing war crimes and massacres.
>>306925
>Little known fact, the Qing was actually the first state in Asia to build a modern navy and army. The reason this is credited to Japan is because an army and navy is worth shit if soldiers and your officers have zero training
I know the British helped Japan modernize in order to fight Russia. Did European nations generally refuse to help China modernize because raping China was the one thing all Western nations cooperated even a little bit over?
>>306944
The Western powers let the Qing try to modernize because modernization was expensive and they were entirely willing to let the Chinese gain more and more debt. It also doesn't help that unequal treaties basically fucked over several ways that the Qing government could gain revenue to pay off said debts, like basically banning tariffs entirely. So they would help the Chinese a little, but not enough for them to actually succeed.
>>306982
So Japan picking itself by it's own bootstraps and succeeding in Westernizing where China failed is a myth. China failed because European nations wanted China to fail. Japan succeeded because European nations wanted Japan to succeed.
How do the Chinese emperors compare with the Roman/Byzantine emperors in, uh, 'colorfulness'? Are they as entertaining to read about?
>>306941
Taiping committed very few war crimes, I don't think they did really. Because they had a no tolerance policy against looting and plundering. It is worth mentioning that Taiping was fighting Qing at the same time Qing was fighting in the Second Opium War.
I think most of the Casualties are credited due to that famine. To not forget how bloody sieges could be.
>>306944
I know Germany was very interested in China, considering it could be a viable ally against Great Britain, and later Russia. Since Germany had just unified and were late for the Scramble of Africa. Thought it was mostly to further increase Germany's influence in the area.
>Did European nations generally refuse to help China modernize because raping China was the one thing all Western nations cooperated even a little bit over?
Yes, thought the only reason China was not carved up was because every Imperial power had a sphare of influence there. To not forget the Treaty of Saint Petersburg which forced Russia to give back territory to the Qing sparked a fear that Qing might actually be a threat to the western world. search Yellow Peril
Another great reason why the Qing failed was because of corruption and various conservative factions.
>>306944
1) China was larger than Japan and had a divided leadership who were lukewarm towards modernization (they wanted to spend all the money on pleasureboats) and had never expanded the state apparatus and bureaucracy (like in Japan during the Tokugawa) and had instead shrunk the state in its good yeasr (in a very libertarian take on the role of the state)
2) Europe saw more benefit creating concession ports/unequal treaties and exporting Opium (which became the crack cocaine of the Qing) to China than to push hard for modernization. Only Americans really pushed hard to modernize China (in that they saw China much like they saw post-War Japan, as fertile ground for creating another version of America in the world).
>>307006
Yes.
>>306996
I think European countries didn't have such a strategy for Asia.
Japan just had a more competent ruling class. The Meiji guys were very smart.
>>306759
>Heisei 27
>people still fall for the nanjinku hoax
>>307011
When Germany chose Japan over China, most of the trade ministers were appalled. Japan had few resources worth exporting. China had enough to supply the entire German economy several times over. Germany also lost its entire investment in China due to Hitler's "pragmatism."
>>307015
>posthumously declared emperor
Doesn't count
>>306996
Somewhat, yes. It is true that Japan would never have westernized if the West wasn't so focused on China, which was repeatedly being kicked into the dirt. However, the Qing government just couldn't muster the same reformist will that the Meiji government did; Empress Dowager Cixi, for example, ended the Hundred Days of Reform (though she too began reforming in the years before her death, after her failed support of the Boxers) while the Japanese totally transformed their society to match the West more closely.
>>307006
Yes. Especially people like Sui Yangdi, who had an island of meat on a lake of wine and over a thousand women who could not sate his sexual desire.
Also people like >>307015. Cáo Cāo technically wasn't an emperor but he was a ruler in all but name and a very interesting man. Reading RoTK is what got me into studying China.
>>307022
Yeah, the Qing government was old and corrupt while the Meiji Restoration purged the old Tokugawa and replaced it with a very vigorous reformist government.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He_Man_(rebel)
>>307037
Hitler's decision also would turn out to be devistating for the German war machine. China was the main exporter of tungsten, an important metal for industrial and weapon manufacturing. Guess who didn't continue to export after occupying the mines?
>China had up until this time been a leading source of Tungsten (Wolfram) for Germany. When the German Military Mission left China, Japan promised to continue delivering the needed metal - deliveries were never made. In 1943, Speer commented that either Germany find an alternate source to the vital metal or give up right now. Germany's available stocks of Tungsten could only be used two ways - to help build the jigs and tools necessary for industrial manufacturing or in the weapons themselves.
>>307022
It's not a grand strategy. They just were profiting too much from China to help them westernize, whereas Japan could be used as a pawn against other European powers.
>>307047
>Somewhat, yes. It is true that Japan would never have westernized if the West wasn't so focused on China, which was repeatedly being kicked into the dirt. However, the Qing government just couldn't muster the same reformist will that the Meiji government did; Empress Dowager Cixi, for example, ended the Hundred Days of Reform (though she too began reforming in the years before her death, after her failed support of the Boxers) while the Japanese totally transformed their society to match the West more closely.
Also Japan only dedicated to westernization because China failed so utterly at overcoming Europe without westernizing. Had China not been been an example they would have had just as much descent in Westernizing.
>Song Taizu
>Tang Taizong
>Kangxi
Absolutely based.
What a shame to see china today, had the commies never taken over they would still produce some cool ass shit, sun yat sen is rolling in his grave
sorry, I'm just ranting, ignore me.
>>307015
>>>/wsg/837546
A very good show.
>>307047
>Somewhat, yes. It is true that Japan would never have westernized if the West wasn't so focused on China
Wouldn't it be more correct to say that "Japan modernized because they saw the proud Chinese being treated like trash and got terrified of this"?
I don't think there was much of an effort by the Westerners to create a competing regional power there.
>>307082
Also, don't forget John Rabe, the Nazi party member who saved thousands during the Nanjing Massacre. (he had joined the nazis back when they were still a humanitarian workers movement, lol)
>Two Japanese soldiers have climbed over the garden wall and are about to break into our house. When I appear they give the excuse that they saw two Chinese soldiers climb over the wall. When I show them my party badge, they return the same way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rabe#The_Nanking_Massacre
I liked the fact that 2 of their greatest dynasties; the Han and Ming were founded by commoners.
Why do any of you want to learn about chinese? People say that cultural marxism doesn't exist but this is a prime example of it--get some fucking respect for white history, don't learn about shit that isn't relevant to your heritage
>>307132
This is a strawman pretending to be a /pol/ack that is some kind of white version of an afrocentrist?
/pol/ack here. Chinese history is interesting. In parts, more so than European one.
>>306759
Were Chinese culturally better people, compared to now that the vast majority of their poor mainlanders are pretty much subhumans when it comes to their culture?
I've heard Manchu ruined China culturally.
>>307160
The Cultural Revolution did it.
>>307158
#BoardOfPeace
#NotAllPolacks
>>307160
>Were Chinese culturally better people, compared to now that the vast majority of their poor mainlanders are pretty much subhumans when it comes to their culture?
Well for one thing: there's no censorship (unless you're fuck outright calling for the dethronement of the Emperor).
Everyone was allowed to own a weapon. Hell, rural peoples are REQUIRED to do so.
China's population was sustainable by its own food supply,unlike nowadays (but whose country isn't?)
And shit was sure cleaner than it is now.
>>306803
Same here.
I once read a chapter on European trade with china and another chapter on how advanced their clockmaking techniques were.
The celestial clock was bretty good 10/10
>>307158
nope I'm a /pol/ack; I just don't see why you would, surely you'd understand, it's not your culture, why learn about it? Surely there's loads of white history?
>>307177
Oh and I should add: they are far more polite then than they are now.
8 salutations to someone's grandpa and all that.
>>307178
European explorers would go to court in China bringing clocks which they considered the epitome of their technology. The Chinese would go "oh, good, another clock..."
>>307190
>it's not your culture, why learn about it?
Because it is interesting and has valuable lessons.
Your fake argument is similar to that of BLM complaining about reading Shakespeare.
You are not a /pol/ack.
I have some interest in the warlord period, but lack books
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSd0aq7ANqA
>>307107
>sun yat sen is rolling in his grave
If it wasn't for Sun Yat Sen maybe be would have seen the birth of the warlord era. Which would mean no division, which would probably prevent an Japanese Invasion which in turn would prevent a gobunist takeover.
His opposition to Yuan Shikai was stupid, he declared himself Emperor? So What, he accepted to resign, but instead they demanded that he retire from politics, which made him depress so he deded.
To be fair, Yuan Shikai is aslo to blame for the warlord era, he shouldn't have betrayed Guangxu. And when Yuan ruled as president, he should have allowed governors to actually be allowed to create their own armies.
>>307160
>Were Chinese culturally better people, compared to now that the vast majority of their poor mainlanders are pretty much subhumans when it comes to their culture?
They were, I mean Asian culture admired Chinese culture during the reign of the Tang, a lot of etiquette in both Japan and Korea is influenced by China, especially when it comes to eating.
Though it depends on which era, a lot of shit have happen throughout Chinese history, but I think most of the blame for their shitty modern materialist culture comes from the Cultural Revolution. It is crazy how different oversea Chinese people are compared to their mainlander counterparts.
>>307160
>I've heard Manchu ruined China culturally.
Manchu Emperors like Kangxi actually helped preserve Chinese culture by collecting and copying old texts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh3WL_NZyho
>>307207
I am a fucking /pol/lack, stop saying I'm not .
>BLM and Shakespeare
kek, now you've revealed yourself. Get back to /lit/ you crafty false flagger
Wasn't Prince Gong quite competent?
He was not as great as the Meiji Japan leaders, but if he had won over Cixi, wouldn't China be able to be at least independent?
>>306759
Chinese historiography is pretty cool but it's pretty much set in stone and chinese historians often retell rather than interpret history.
>>307256
Both Yuan Shikai and Gong were competent, but the reason Cixi's coup was successful was because of Yuan Shikai, if he didn't betray Guangxu 100 days reform would continue.
pic unrelated
>>307280
>Chinese historiography is pretty cool but it's pretty much set in stone
Not really
For starters, Chinese history is marred by all the historiographic backstabbing between dynasties.
>>307223
>And when Yuan ruled as president, he should have allowed governors to actually be allowed to create their own armies.
>should
Fuck I meant SHOULDN'T
>>307223
>Fuck I meant SHOULDN'T
Yeah I understand what you mean, fret not.
...Is it ok if I can admire some of china's emperors but really dislike what china has become today?
I mean, just look at the tianjin coverup, it was a fucking disaster. my friend got wounded there too.
Why was the Chinese merchant fleet so small during late Ming and early Qing?
I heard something in the region of 100.000 tons.
>>307391
>Why was the Chinese merchant fleet so small during late Ming and early Qing?
First of all
>Qing
>Sea trade
Second of all how the hell do you even get that data when you have a lot of private ships around.
>>307037
Hitler wanted an ally against international judeo-bolshevism in the form of the USSR and he thought Japan being more industrialized and more militarized would be that ally (surely 4chan of all places would understand the threat of international judeo-bolshevism). Of course the /elevens/ got their ass kicked by Zhukov.
>>307107
No if the commies hadn't taken over, China would probably be like the Philippines right now. The GMD's corruption had become a cancer after the war.
>>307423
>The GMD's corruption had become a cancer after the war.
Yeah I read something like this, absolute shame
>>307109
>Wouldn't it be more correct to say that "Japan modernized because they saw the proud Chinese being treated like trash and got terrified of this"?
No it was more like Perry (and Fillmore) threatening to shell the Shogun and the Emperor to kingdom come that forced everyone to realize that modernization was needed. The Shogunate had known about the Opium War and had suppressed all information about it because they feared political unrest. The political unrest following Perry and the Meiji Restoration was all about trying to get rid of the foreign devils.
>>307411
Yeah why was the Qing dynasty so opposed to sea trade? Early ming seem to have tried it and so did the Yuan right?
Data was guestimated.
>>307513
Pirates.
Also the Qing Dynasty mcfucking quieted the Silk Road again after genociding the fuck out of the Dzungars. The Ming's focus on Sea Trade to begin with was due to the Silk Route shitted up by Turkics & Mongol Successors.
And disdain for "barbarians."
>>307526
Ah alright, the Wokou?
Could you tell me a bit about the Tanka people if you know anything about them?
>>307513
I guess because the Qing/Manchus were also mostly a land power.
>>306996
Look at japan on a map. Now look at the Qing Empire. Add to this the fact that the power in japan had never really resided in the imperial court but in the Shogunate, so when the Boshin war happened they could effectively displace the old ruling class with a new one and they would still have their god-emperor as a unifying figure head.
On the other hand the Qing empire was fucking huge at the time, bloated and ruled by an ethnic minority whos greatest achievements were really only to steamroll what little opposition surrounded china at the time.
>>307190
>this was the attitude that fucked over the chinese historically
Is this some super meta ironic shitposting?
>>307160
Mainlander here, westernization destroyed Chinese culture just as much as the Red Guards, if not more.
So pick your poison.
>>306996
Is it just me or is a large population, cheap labour and lots of agriculture a death sentence for societies historically?
I mean looking at China and Russia
>>308269
Only during the colonial era and industrialization era.
>>308274
What about the late medieval era?
>>308259
I guess this supports the theory about high level equilibrium trap killing the need for development in china.
>>308317
Here is a short (but good) read. They did a comparative study between Holland and the Yangtzi Delta.
http://www.voxeu.org/article/why-china-missed-industrial-revolution
>>307629
Oops sorry, I did not mean to put pirates. the Qing dynasty destroyed the remnants of the Wokou and the Chinese pirates/loyalists in Taiwan during the South China Sea Campaign in the 1700's
And then they weirdly shut off from (official) sea trade with the exception of certain trade ports (i.e. Macau, the Dutch Consulate, and the Spaniards in the Philippines)
>>308342
Did the Chinese have different ships from the Japanese or other pirates?
And why didn't any of the asian countries besides Korea adopt the whole turtle ship design?
>>308354
>Did the Chinese have different ships from the Japanese or other pirates?
...yes...like super different. For one thing, Chinese ships of the 1400's-1600's were sail powered and had cannon. Jap warships were oar driven and lacked cannon/rarely had cannon.
>And why didn't any of the asian countries besides Korea adopt the whole turtle ship design?
Because the Turtle Ship is a specific ship to answer a specific problem: how can the small Korean fleet fuck up Japanese numeric advantage?
You see: Japanese ships relied on boarding to initiate combat against other ships. Koreans suck at close quarters combat. To negate this: Koreans built turtle ships in which a spiked canopy abov the deck would render Japanese boarding tactics useless.
In addition to this: Turtle ships had cannon. Which enabled the ship to go through the thick of a Jap fleet and fire like crazy, safe from Japanese arrows/musket fire and the range handheld bombs
In China, meanwhile, they'd just sail away from said oar ships and blast them with heavy cannon from long range. Chinese ships have stood toe to toe with the most modern ships of the day - European ones- and came out on top for multiple times.
>>308402
You mean to tell me the Japanese rowed across the entire Asian sea? Did Wokou pirates use similar ships?
As for the European battles, do you mean those Portuguese engagements?
>>308431
Oh one more thing, do these Asian ships have a single keel?
>>308431
>You mean to tell me the Japanese rowed across the entire Asian sea?
No. For trade they used a sailed ship. For war, oared boats. This is because Nips just fought coastal battles.
>Did Wokou pirates use similar ships?
Yes and no. Yes as some wokou are renegade Samurai Lords. No as some wokou preferred raiding with fast sailed ships.
And some wokou are Chinese themselves or mixed breed Chinese/Japanese fleets. Using Chinese ships.
>As for the European battles, do you mean those Portuguese engagements?
That, and Ming raids on the Dutch. And the fact that the Spaniards in the Philippines only took Chinese navies seriously among the asians though Spain and China cooperated in the anti-piracy campaigns of the late 1500's-early 1600's and never fought each other. Ming Loyalists in Taiwan notwidthstanding.
>Oh one more thing, do these Asian ships have a single keel?
Yes. That flared end is just style.
>>308259
Okay, but what caused the changes in per capita GDP? That doesn't really answer much.
>>308943
Mini-ice age happened, mass famine in north China. Then peasants started rebelling, causing mass destruction in the country side. Manchus invaded from the north and killed anyone that was worth a shit.
>>306759
Are there any records of Marco Polo actually having been in China or the court of Kublai Khan?
The worst meme in Chinese history is that bigger = better. I get that the fear of balkanization is a real thing, but look at what expansion has done to the various dynasties
>Tang Dynasty
>expand into western asia
>get btfo when turkic and uighur """"immigrants"""" decide to chimpout in your capital
>Qing Dynasty
>biggest empire in Chinese history
>counts for zero because it was a big cloister up its own ass and refused / was incapable of modernization on such an enormous scale
Agree or no?
>>309040
>>get btfo when turkic and uighur """"immigrants"""" decide to chimpout in your capital
Because the Tang court trusted foreigners too much senpai, they weren't redpilled enough
>>306944
Japan took the initiative to modernize on their own accord. after the meiji restoration, they sent their officials to western countries and learned about industrialization. this was all happening when china was still isolationist.
>>306803
Canadian here, not even my World History class talked about China.
>>309455
>westernize only because China failed so horribly after trying not to westernize
partly true. I always thought the main reason was because matthew perry just showed up with his giant steam ships and told them to open their ports or they blow them the fuck out.
>>308258
I agree with you, but the cultural revolution was an absolute horror in chinese history. In my opinion.
>>308258
Westernization destroyed priceless artifacts, buildings and locations. The cultural revolution did the same but to the incorporeal parts of chinese culture.
I mean sometimes I look at india and think a kulturkampfesque movement to modernize your culture is absolutely necessary but the Cultural Revolution crowned retarded peasant anti-intellectualism and put a cult of personality on top.
My opinion is that it doubtless contributed the rampant nihilism of china today.
>>309502
There were two possible reactions to westerners.
Option 1) Embrace your roots and as Chinese/Japanese as fucking possible and completely blow Europeans out of the water with how awesome you are.
Option 2) Act as European as possible.
Option 1 didn't work out for China so Japan only had one option available too it.
>>306803
I studied international relations in college and chinese history was never even mentioned either
Anyone recommend any good books on China and Chinese history? Any era, really.
>>309480
In America we have an American history class and a world history class. World history is basically European history.
Is "the search for modern china" by Jonathan spence any good?
>>306803
Australian, same here we only studied the Opium Wars.
We studied so much latin American history though for some reason. We spent a whole 12 weeks on Allende, the revolution and Pinochet.
>>306908
>implying amerilards can type characters with diacriticals
>>306807
Didn't Hong Xiuquan believe he was Jesus' Chinese brother? I recall hearing that in my History of China class.
>>307047
Internet pornography has made us all emperors.
I want to know everything there is to know about the Shang and Xia dynasties.
Lost history and shit.
>>309633
>>307207
>implying all of us have little to nothing in common with the chinese people or their struggles because we were born on the other side of the same tiny ball of metal and liquid dihydrogen oxide careening through the void of the universe
IT'S 2015, COME ON
>>309532
>doubtless contributed the rampant nihilism of china today
that's very interesting.
>>310184
I'm hard pressed to think of a movement that tried as hard systemically to mindfuck an entire populace.
>>307202
It's funny because sending a clock (or those big ass bells) as a gift is considered a curse since it's a homonym for a funeral procession
>>309983
He did believe so, yes.
>>309668
American here, we skipped all of latin american history. Only learned about the founding fathers for half the year and the other half about the civil rights(african americans only, no other groups).
>>310211
French revolution?
Japanese militarism?
Cambodian killing fields?
>>309532
I've heard that about the Cultural Revolution a lot, and yet I've visited China before and can't figure out what it is people complain about. Could you explain? China seems to do ok culturally (to me at least), what major changes were made that were for the worse?
Was the European printing press really a Chinese import of block printing?
WE WUZ QINGZ AND SHIT
>>307418
Hitler siding with Japan does make sense in context, since Japan did kick Russia's ass all by itself just a few decades prior.
>>306908
Is it possible to make all of those diacritics on an English International keyboard? I have rising and falling individually not not rising/falling and even.
>>306908
chinese should just speak english to be honest family
Is this a good read besides the read-bait cover?
What do i need to read first to put it into context?
Is minimal knowledge of pre-communist China enough?
>>309480
Same here. I must've been taught something about Japan because I vaguely recall something about that, but don't remember any actual information. Otherwise it was mostly human evolution, a ton of boring shit about native Americans, Canadian history (yawn), world wars and some stuff in Europe (Yugoslavia, Berlin wall, don't remember what else).
I think that World History is taught differently in the world.
In Europe (and offshots) people will learn European history. My impression is that in Japan, they study mostly Japanese history and some Chinese history.
In Brazil, it usually is: Mesopotamia, Egypt, Greece, Rome, Medieval Europe (including Crusades, Magna Carta and 100 Years War), Renaissance, English Glorious Revolution, French Revolution, American Revolution, Opium Wars Japanese Meiji Era, WWI, Russia Revolution, WWII
But it usually is very shallow and with a very Marxist bent.
>>309668
>Australian, same here we only studied the Opium Wars.
>We studied so much latin American history though for some reason. We spent a whole 12 weeks on Allende, the revolution and Pinochet.
That is kind of puzzling. I imagine your teacher was very leftist, but why would that be so relevant to Australia?
I'm very surprised that Australians don't study a lot of English history. I remember talking with an Australian that didn't even know who William the Conqueror was.
>>310840
That's not how the Q is pronounced.
>>307164
>>307177
The decline from a highly cultured people to barbarians was caused by a long series of cultural disasters.
First came the Mongols. Next was the notorious literary inquisition of the Ming/Qing period and the suppression of Han culture by the Manchus.
Then there were the radical westernization advocates in the late Qing/ROC period who went so far as to suggest completely abolishing the Chinese characters.
Mao's Cultural Retardation was just the latest and probably the biggest of them all.
