Did the Tokugawa did anything special to win the Sengoku Jidai or were they just a clan like all others?
Did the Tokugawa do something different or was the Sengoku Jidai just a big lottery of whatever clan survives the braw becomes shogun?
we wuz shogunz and shiet
>>440218
>Oda
If a bird doesnt sing, kill it
>Toyotomi
If a bird doesnt sing, make it
>Tokugawa
If a bird doesnt sing, wait for it
>>440218
A lot of it is just the way it happened to work out. Ieyasu's clan was actually the opposite of special. They were relatively small and weak and sandwiched between some powerful clans like the Imagawa and Oda. The local politics saw they allying with the Oda around the time the military genius Nobunaga made his big power play. They rode that wave until Nobunaga died, then managed to bide their time instead of fighting the genius statesman Hideyoshi. The reason they ended up in charge is because Hideyoshi died without a mature heir, basically leaving the actual power with the vassals, among whom the Tokugawa were the most powerful after sticking with that franchise for so long.
The main characteristic other than circumstance that puts the Tokugawa in charge is Ieyasu's cleverness, patience, and opportunism. As the old saying goes.
Nobunaga pounds the wheat.
Toyotomi bakes the bread.
Ieyasu eats the bread.
Tokugawa just got lucky.
It was Oda Nobunaga who did things different.
>>440297
It's also important that Tokugawa helped Toyotomi to conquer the Hojo and accepted Toyotomi's offer to take Hojo's lands in exchange of all the provinces that Tokugawa already had. This as a gamble because the new lands were very profitable (it's still now the hearth of Japan where Tokyo is) but Ieyasu had not assurance of being able to actually control a land where he was a newcomer.
Rather than just waiting, Ieyasu gambled like Nobunaga or Toyotomi but only when there was a lot to be won.
>>440236
kek
Tokugawa was also one of the big clans that didn't waste men and ressources in Korea.
>>440355
What would've happened if Hideyoshi died in 1592 before Korea was invaded? All that military strength and wealth wouldn't be squandered.
>>440218
basically pic related
he had to be reasonably competent to succeed, but even if you were a genius it is largely up to the winds of fate
if you are interested in personal merit, his predecessor toyotomi hideyoshi might be more interesting, a peasant who rose to the position of emperor, then caught the victory disease and started a futile invasion of korea
>>440218
not the title "emperor" specifically but he had the power of an emperor
Just watch Hyougemono
>>440342
Yes, that was a HILARIOUS and ORIGINAL joke, amirite?
Is Mitsuhide the stupidest man of his era?
>I'mma kill Nobunaga just 'cause
>YEAH I'M SHOGUN NOW
>WAIT WHERE ARE YOU NIGGERS GOING
>BTFO in under two hours by Hideyoshi
>killed by a random fucking bandit
>all in two weeks
>>440547
tea not even once
Oh sweet, a fuedal Japan thread.
I don't know much, but I know that the Battle of Sekigahara was super important. Can someone give a brother some insight?
>>441643
Yikes, thats goddamned embarrassing.
>>440218
The Oda clan united 50% of the country through conquest and skulduggery, Toyotomi finished the job and united about 80% of the country.
After the failure of the Imjin war, Tokugawa usurped the government and just continued what the others before them have done.
Also something that should be noted, southernmost areas of mainland Japan and the Ryuku kingdoms were not under the Japanese government originally, they were annexed and Yamato-cized by the Satsuma clan.
>>440556
He's not laughing, he's saying that other men enjoy that poster's wife.
>>444129
Sekigahara essentially ended the sengoku jidai. The couple years following it were a transitory period where the Tokugawa had to stamp out some stubborn elements, but Ieyasu removed all doubt who was master of Japan in 1600 when he won the battle of Sekigahara.
>>440218
Tokugawa himself likes to play the long game and keep his head down when being allied with a much stronger power. He even conceded to Nobunaga's order to kill his son and wife to show how much of a subordinate cuck he is
So how different do things go if Kenshin doesn't die right after Tedorigawa and/or lives long enough to establish a clear line of succession (i.e. naming Kagetora heir)? Nobunaga was basically scared shitless the Uesugi after Kenshin smacked his shit in.
>>444145
Shimazu clan, Satsuma was the domain.
Leyasu was a good politician, Good tactician, and great judge of character. throw in the flaws of the other greats at the time and he could just ride the long way to victory.
>>446310
>>444145
Also worth noting that the Shimazu ruled Satsuma with almost total autonomy even during the Tokugawa Shogunate. Because Kyushu is so far from the seat of Shogun authority and were also court outsiders besides, there was no real Shogunate oversight in Satsuma and the Shimazu ruled as kings basically. No real surprise either that they were one of the first agitators going into the Boshin War and championed the emperor hard going into the Meiji Restoration.
>>444129
>tfw Ii Naomasa is my favorite samurai all time
>will never be even 1/10th as badass as him
>okay with this
>>440355
>Korea
Is it just me or everyone got fucked in some way during that war?
>Korea is buttfuckingly destroyed.
>Hideyoshi's clan loses prestige, lotsa angry Daimyos who wasted money, men, and materiel for that war.
>China's Northern Armies weakened
>>448034
Yea but like since when did countries ever really not get fucked in a war?
>>448049
Usually winning countries tend to not get fucked.
Or fucked the least.
The Tokugawa didn't really win through a "braw". They ultimately managed to upsurp the Toyotomi by being better at politics, as is perfectly illustrated in the battle of Sekigahara.
During the invasion of Korea, the Koboyakawa performed poorly at some point. Mitsunari put the blame on Hideaki himself and Hideaki was punished with a reduction of his domain. He was humiliated, and later took his revenge by betrayel. Humiliating subordinates but keeping them in powerful positions turns out to be a bad decision, as the Tokugawa themselves found out roughly 250 years later when the Choshu Mori clan took their own revenge against the Shogunate for reducing the domain of Terumoto after Sekigahara.
Hideyoshi was a cruel warlord who treated his subordinates poorly and acted like a madman. Mitsunari was also generally a bastard, seen as an upstart bureaucrat who didn't have any place commanding armies. In contrast, Ieyasu had a good record, and was the last major loyalist of Nobunaga still around, giving him more legitimacy.
The thread has already seriously highlighted every about Ieyasu but I would like to say that his failure at the battle of mikatagahara was one of the most important of his life and completely shaped who he became.
At the time a young Ieyasu felt threatened and disrespected when Shingen Takeda started marching his army across Tokugawa land and decided to rush into attacking him, thinking that the tokugawa's newly acquired firearms could overcome Shingen's tactics.
What ensued was a total route of Ieyasu's forces leading to the deaths of a lot of his samurai retainers. Ieyasu learned from that battle the importance of patience and never rushed into a fight again.
>>448004
Honestly my favorite figures from that period have always been Kenshin, Masamune and Masayuki Sanada.
>>448072
>Vietnam
Tokugawa Ieyasu was smart. That's it.
I really liked the social, cultural and military upheaval that occurred all throughout the Sengoku Jidai.
>gekokujo
>rise of the ashigaru
>dicking around with firearms
>flowering of arts and culture despite massive death and devastation
>that invasion of Korea
Humanity really steps up during times of great tribulation
>>451420
Honestly I think their whole forest management deal, brought about due to the heavy deforestation during the Sengoku era, is pretty impressive too.
>>452189
Depends. The Genpei War gets some attention to as that and the following Kamakura period are where the samurai and feudalism become established. Kamakura period's also when the Mongol invasion happens.
The Edo period's pretty interesting too. It's just that, due to Japan's long isolation, there's not a whole lo going on and there's nothing that's really as easy to romanticize as the Sengoku Jidai and Bakumatsu/Meiji Restoration.
Random aside but I'm playing through Samurai Warriors 4 and I have no clue what the fuck was going on with that Oda story. No Anegawa, Nagamasa not dying at Odani Castle, the importance placed on Hisahide and his being behind everything, Mitsuhide refusing to kill Nobunaga at Honnoji (and Nobunaga just walking into the flames).
It's like one giant What If? scenario, mroeso than most other Warriors stories. On the other hand, Munenori Yagyu's the biggest beast I've ever played in any of these games. Even more than the actual "beastly" characters like Lu Bu or Tadakatsu.
>>454815
Well the Mitsuhide refusing to kill nobunaga was something that they played with in SW2.
They have Magoichi kill him or him just fucking off into the fire because he was bored.
Anyway lately they've been seriously stretching history and making the series even more ridiculous.
>>454815
What did you expect from a Warriors game?
>>440547
Akechi best boy.
>>448635
NEVAR FORGET
>>454949
There's always been a bit of a line but there's not even a vague hint of anything historical there.
Although SW has always stretched things even more than DW i.e. Yukimura being at battles like Kawanakajima and Nagashino.
>>456084
Yea after 2 it appears they're making it more akin to Sengoku Basara.
The series always straddled the line but it still hit all the major points.
Did love the fact that the story went from Kawanakajima and Okehezama all the way to the battle of Sekigehara and the final siege of Osaka castle.
Decent mix of mindless action, history, and fuccbois.
>>456147
SW and Mitsuteru Yokoyama's manga made me a pretty big fan of Masamune.
Yokoyama's apparently got a biographical manga on Shingen Takeda as well that I'll have to read some time. His Masamune and RotK ones are fucking great.
