Do you resent the fact that polytheism died in Europe?
Any good books on the ancient Mystery schools that aren't /x/-tier?
>>29043
I don't know about any books but this is a really good podcast http://mythandhistory.podbean.com/page/3/
First half goes into Greek mythology and 2nd half goes into greco-roman history
>>29043
The Golden Bough.
>>28610
Somewhat. I just wish this fucker here hadn't been quite so disgustingly stringent about getting rid of it. It's complete and utter extermination has definitely meant the loss of something in our cultures.
>>28610
The different and exotic will always appeal to people. It's human nature. This is partly why Christianity caught on so quickly in Europe. It was such a stark contrast to what was already canon that people were genuinely interested in it as a philosophy instead of simply adhering to the tradition of their forefathers.
You are probably interested in polytheism because you grew up in a monotheistic society. The grass is always greener on the other side.
>>28610
It's a bit of a shame, but Christianity brought concepts that vastly transcended the philosophy of traditional mythologies so I'm glad for that.
The biggest resentment I have is that this has allowed neonazis to co-opt traditional mythologies by using them as a source of nationalist pride.
>>29415
>The biggest resentment I have is that this has allowed neonazis to co-opt traditional mythologies by using them as a source of nationalist pride.
Can you not do this sort of thing? You are one half of why the board could become shit.
>>29464
I consider it a valid concern if neo-nazis co-opt part of what I would like to consider my culture. I am sorry if you do not feel that way.
>>29607
Are you the kind of person who can't like a show or movie because you hate the other fans who enjoy it? Do you think the Swastika is racist and anti-Semitic because the Nazis co-opted it?
Lots of dumbfucks wrap themselves in the American flag, that doesn't mean I can't still enjoy it and feel like it is part of my culture as an American. Something can still be part of your culture even though people you don't like also like it.
See, this is what I'm talking about. To put this thread back on topic please explain what traditional mythologies you are talking about.
>inb4 we're all banned and posts deleted for mentioning swastikas
You've done it now lads
I think that there is something of a tendency of people to hate the religion they are most familiar with and tolerate those that they are least familiar with. I dislike the Abrahamic religions, but I have no reason to believe that had polytheism survived it would be any better (or worse for that matter)
personally I wish that Buddhism, Taoism, even Hinduism were more widepsread than they are currently
>>29811
Expansion of religion is either by the sword or proselytizing. Neither are exactly inviting, hence why we're more likely to be open to an eastern religion on the other side of the planet or a long dead one, over the one down the street.
>>28610
Not, not in the least.
IN HOC SIGNO VINCES
>>28610
i do
i can't help but to think that a polytheist europe would have been much more interesting than your usual boring eastern monotheistic cult
>>31047
same
No, because the Catholic Church preserved the cultural unity of Western Europe after the collapse of the Roman Empire.
Who knows what kind of savagery they would have fallen into if there wasn't even the semblance of comradery between the peoples of Europe.
This is all out of my ass but I think I remember reading about the Romans being in the process of reforming their religion when some select emperors decided to convert and completely fuck up the project.
Would've been very interesting to see what that religion would look like if it were able to develop as rich a tradition as Christianity has. It's too bad because it killed any sort of variety that you for instance see in Asian religions.
>>31345
There was no comradery, just political maneuvers. The Middle ages were plagued with endless disputes among the Christian kingdoms. If anything the Catholic Church managed to pull a brilliant political move that installed it as in-effect emperors of the continent.
All the cool religions are gone and small tribes became big civilizations thanks to fucking christianity. Christianity is cancer just like Islam. Don't trust sandnigger religions.
I honestly think the world is a lot more boring from a monotheistic viewpoint. Back in the day, you could petition to all sorts of gods, but now you just have the one, and he's like a temperamental daddy figure.
That, and from my perspective, I don't think any one being, godly or otherwise, can or should have domain over all existence and eternity. It seems more like something for a pantheon or a parliament of deistic things to deal with.
I kinda wish Gnosticism spread a little more, because it wasn't afraid to call Christianity out on its bullshit.
>>31561
Emperor Julian brought in some attempted reforms but he was too late, by that point polytheism was dead. Christianity offered too many material advantages.
Sup /his/,
On of my favorite books is Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. It details the history of individuals, the economic situation in Germany from beginning to end, the social aspects of life in Nazi Germany, and things I never thought would have such a big historic impact.
Anyone know if there's a book of the same style about the Soviet Union?
Also any good book recommendations about the Soviet Union?
>>28610
>Do you resent the fact that polytheism died in Europe?
No because the monotheistic Abrahamic religions contributed far more to the progress of western civilization and society.
>>32636
IGNORE THIS I SUCK COCKS
>Tondrakians (Armenian: Ô¹Õ¸Õ¶Õ¤Ö€Õ¡Õ¯Õ¥Õ¡Õ¶Õ¶Õ¥Ö€) were members of an anti-feudal, heretical Christian sect that flourished in medieval Armenia between the early 9th century and 11th century and centered on the city of Tondrak, north of Lake Van in Western Armenia.
>The founder of the movement was Smbat Zarehavantsi, who advocated the abolishment of the Church along with all of its traditional rites. Tondrakians denied the immortality of the soul, the afterlife, the church and its feudal rights. They supported property rights for peasants, as well as equality between men and women
>The Tondrakian movement broke into three different directions during its last years, the most radical of which began advocating atheism as well as doubt in the afterlife and the immortality of the human soul.
if christianity didn't do it islam would have
>>32669
they sound euphoric
>>32479
>It seems more like something for a pantheon or a parliament of deistic things to deal with.
that would only be necessary if the single existing God is not "omniscient"
>>32498
Not that Julian's religion would have necessarily stayed very polytheistic. Neo-Platonism offers itself easily to monotheism.
>>32669
>Tenth century Armenian theologian and monk Gregory of Narek wrote a critical summary of Tondrakian doctrines in his Letter to the Abbot of Kchaw Concerning the Refutation of the Accursed Tondrakians. He lists the following among other accusations:
They deny our ordination, which the apostles received from Christ.
They deny the Holy Communion as the true body and blood of Christ.
They deny our Baptism as being mere bath water.
They consider Sunday as on a level with other days.
They refuse genuflection.
They deny the veneration of the cross.
They ordain each other and thus follow self-conferred priesthood.
They do not accept marriage as a sacrament.
They reject the matagh as being a Jewish practice.
They are sexually promiscuous.
>>32736
See, Omniscience just doesn't sound plausible to me, because even the smartest mortal on the earth isn't able to recall everything at a whim. If he were really all-knowing and all-powerful, then for what purpose does he have to manipulate his followers to kill their own children or somesuch?
>>32841
Well, only the omniscienant being would truly know that, due to the fact they have perfect insight and wisdom.
Perhaps doing nothing and guiding is just the wisest course.
To what end? Only the omnisciant being would truly know.
>>29931
>not in the least
>proceeds to speak in roman language
>>28610
No but I resent the fact that a jewish religion replaced it.
>>32669
based
>>28610
Kind of. I don't really like Abrahamic religions and being a Slav, I'm somewhat salty that Slavic gods were erased so thoroughly we can pretty much only guess what they were like.
>>34105
Convert to your native religion
>>34105
If the Slavic gods were worth a shit, they'd have saved you from Jesus
>>28610
Not really. It had to happen for Europe to unify.
>>32717
Islam is only a thing because of Christianity. If Christianity wasn't alive and well in Europe in the 600's Mohammad probably wouldn't had gotten around to start Islam as his way of fixing Christianity.
>>34399
has nothing to do with it and takes away nothing from my point
>>34446
ew never said to do that
>>34446
>I'm an atheist, so in a way, I am saved from Jesus
Not if your culture stems from his worship.
You're more like a child throwing a tantrum against parental authority.
>>28610
>polytheism died in Europe?
>implying christianity isn't polytheistic
>implying science worship isn't polytheistic
>>34744
Worship at your altar, give offerings, simple. It's what I do as a hellenist
>>34774
it's an impossibility for anyone to be a "Hellenist" in the modern age
>>34744
That doesn't matter. The idea of Jesus saying that all people are equal in the eyes of God is what sparked the idea in the West of humane treatment to your fellow man.
>>28610
Mostly in the sense that I'm sad so much culture gets lost whenever a people convert from one religion to the next. You see pieces of it, like Christmas trees and Easter eggs and such, but I've always been curious about the pagan traditions of Europe.
Of course, this is countered by my distaste for most modern interpretations of paganism; Wicca and the assorted "neopagan" riff-raff irritate me, with all their twee talk of faeries and moon-blessings and so on.
Personally, the idea of a more naturalistic religion/belief system appeals to me. I've visited some standing stones, and they're pretty rad. I like monolithic sites of worship, though.
>>34815
But i'm doing it
>>34879
Out of curiosity, where are you getting the source material for the base of your beliefs? Are you Greek yourself? Do you venerate Hades for mad dosh? If so, pay denbts.
>>34879
you believe aegis bearing zeus actually tosses thunderbolts from mount olympus at people who displease him?
you must have severe aspergers or just be some teenage edgy neo-pagan faggot
>>34967
Those are myths tho
>>35012
and you believe them?
if not what do you believe that can make you consider yourself to be a hellenist?
>>35035
I give offerings to the gods. Apollo is my guardian god. They guide us with an invisible hand. I believe some of the myths but a lot like the god rape and incest I think is just the greeks being creative.
>>35082
you'd have to have been raised under the circumstances the ancients were to believe ANY of that nonsense though
you're worshipping nothing but a veneer/shadow of an archaic religion so you can see yourself as being more patriotic in worshipping the native gods of your land
>>35176
If there was an american pantheon i'd worship that. But there isn't, and I love roman/greek history so I went to the Theoi. I don't believe i'm worshiping a dead religion because there are many pagans, norse/asatru, kemetic, druid, roman, whose pantheons are ultimately the same gods. Jupiter is Thor and Thor is Zeus, etc. Maybe it's wrong. Who knows. I do it because it makes me feel comfortable.
>>35268
>If there was an american pantheon i'd worship that.
you're just admitting now that the only reason you do it is because of identity politics and a feeling of patriotism
how can you feel any connection to a religion if this is your way of thinking?
>>35367
I have no idea where you're getting patriotism. I do it because it feels natural to do.
Pic related is altar
>1000 + 1000 + 15
>still worshipping a dead kike
Feels good to believe in Tengri.
>>28610
Give me ANYTHING besides Atheism - ANYTHING!
>>35438
4/10
Needs more olive branches.
>>35438
you said you'd worship an american pantheon if it existed which implies that the main reason you'd do it is because you yourself are an american and therefore should worship the gods of your country, ie. patriotism
>>28610
no, Christianity is the intellectual successor to anything relevant from the Hellenic pagans
>>35544
I'm afraid you don't know what patriotism is
>>35082
>completely missing the point
you're supposed to appease and respect all the major gods homie. and if you're really special, one of them might favor you, but you still gotta do your part for everyone. stuff like this is why i really can't take neopagan types seriously.
>>35598
Did I say I don't appease all gods?
>>35583
"the quality of being patriotic; vigorous support for one's country."
worshipping something not based on merit but because it corresponds to your current geographical location or citizenship in one nation IS patriotism because you're essentially worshipping your country, not the god or gods you claim to
>>35573
>Christianity
>intellectual
>>35635
i was mostly referring to the apollo being your guardian god portion.
you can believe what you want, i guess it just grates on me when things are true to historical tradition.
>>35720
Hey man, no problem. I try to be as 'accurate' as I can.
>>35698
yes
>>35698
don't fall for the bait anon.
>implying religion "is" or "isn't" intellectual
>implying absolute faith isn't intellectually shaky
>not remembering intellectual = person who engages in critical study, thought, and reflection about the reality of society, and proposes solutions for the normative problems of that society
>wants people to take these arguments seriously
i'm all for having reasonable discussions, but when people talk shit without evidence to support said shit, we should just ignore them. i mean you can argue anything with cherry picked examples, but how little it really means in the end.
>>35720
>>35768
gdi i meant *aren't. to each their own anon, i'm glad you found your peace though!
>tfw not religious but still celebrates roman festivals
>>36004
Thanks :)
>>35483
For proof of Tengri, you only need to look up.
Tengri is the endless blue sky and the infinite colourless void behind it.
>>28610
No, why would I? I'm not a polytheist.
>>35268
>If there was an american pantheon i'd worship that.
m8
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_religion
>>29354
Monotheism ravaged Europe and the Middle East. The fall of this world's greatest empires is directly related to the spread of Monotheism. It was a religion of slaves until Constantine in Rome. Prove me wrong.
>>36339
Rome was in a bad spot before Christianity became a state religion to help unify the empire.
>>36339
>what is Mithraism
>what is Solar Imperialism
le tip
>>36004
only bait here is yours
are you honestly going to deny centuries of theological debate and introspection on the nature of God or the reality of the divine just because your deep south pastor touched your willy?
Christianity being the intelectual sucsessor to Helelnic thought means it inherited the philosophy and practices of the Romans/Greek thinkers, then expanded upon them.
scoff all you like but modern science and philosophy grew out of the Christian scholastic tradition, until the enlightenment era proddies chose to deny this fact.
>>36339
Rome was in slow decline following Augustus, its peak was the late Republic and Julio-Claudian era, everything after was stagnation.
Christianity broke those ties and broke the oppression of the empire allowing new growth to happen and ultimately far greater advancement.
>mfw utter mongs try and pretend as if the Empire wasn't a repressive mess because it was "ebin"
>>36992
>loss of all the West
>advancement
>>36992
Actually the 4th century AD was a more advanced time than the Julio-Claudian dynasty period. And the mid-2nd century under the Five Good Emperors was far better than life under the late Republic which was filled with gang warfare, proscriptions, riots and civil war.
So is the oldest recorded religion hinduism? I remember reading that hindiuism claimed muhammed would come as a prophet? Or is that durka durka shilling?
>>37033
yes because Rome was a shitshow of corruption and autocratic abuse.
Germanic rule was far better and Italy saw a massive economic boom under the Ostrogoth's until JUSTinian decided to genocide the lot of them and utterly decimate Italy.
the Gothic wars did more damage than the collapse of the West ever did
>>37141
it was tranquil because there was peace, but it was far more stagnant. from the Republic and early empire we get the majority of our great Roman literà ries, plays, speakers, art, cultural production of all sorts as well as technological/social development.
the Augustine peace saw a far Richer and vibrant Rome than Hadrian did.
>>34531
I worship ~~cobalt~~
You know, here's a question: Why is Henotheism basically nonexistent? Why can't that be a thing. That way people can worship their god and not shit on everyone elses.
>>37258
>from the Republic and early empire we get the majority of our great Roman literà ries, plays, speakers, art, cultural production of all sorts as well as technological/social development.
Things from that period are only regarded as great "classics" because people have deemed them so, following Roman thinking that the good old ways were best and so the later period was a time of degeneracy and creative bankruptcy.
Go and read some Ammianus and Claudian then get back to me. None of the people that we have designated the greats were any better than later writers. Plus, a shit load of later stuff just straight up didn't survive.
>technological/social development.
Nope.
>>38338
Tolerating other faiths excludes absolute authority of your faith and is not possible omnipotent or close to omnipotent deities.
>>28610
No, paganism is dumb
There is no way any of you are stupid enough to think otherwise
Its quaint and I like the stories but thats as far as it goes
Our current catholic god defeated zeus in the skies like zeus once overthrew his father, I'm currently investigating who could it be.
Idk why this isn't canon.
>>32744
>matagh
Wasn't Jesus supposed to be "the final sacrifice" for humanity's atonement, bringing an end to animal sacrifices forever. Why is Matagh allowed?
Monotheism is a natural societal evolution of beliefs. Religion was originally partly about keeping order in society. In tribal life, you have very weak or nonexistent gods, because everyone in the tribe knows each other. If you do bad things, everyone will know you did it and punish you for it.
In city life, this becomes impossible to enforce. It's easy for criminals to stay anonymous overall even if recognized by a few, and you can easily move to a new city. Thus the concept of god evolved to be more singular, more powerful, and more righteous. The social fabric of a society can be better held together if everyone believes in an all powerful God that always knows when you have sinned and will punish you for it. Societies that held this belief could more easily stay together than polytheistic societies.
>>28610
A little bit, yeah.
Polytheism is much more interesting that monotheism as a general rule.
>>28610
Can anyone please recommend a good book on Slavic mythology? I'm interested in Norse, too. I read Snorri's Edda, but it did not contain many myths and I long for a historical analysis.
Rip thread
>>35938
ITT we make fun of Christians
Can we have ONE thread, where we talk about religion in a historical context. Every fucking thread some cultist comes in try to evangelize.
>>41519
make one m8
>>41519
>not evangelizing
That wouldnt be very Christian of them would it ?
>>41373
I thought the original idea behind the Tower of Babel was that humanity would use it to get access to the realm of the gods and the gods felt threatend by this?
>>42326
Excuse me i didnt knew the Apollo program started B.C
>>42326
The popular Christian interpretation is that man made his tower to try to reach heaven. But this is not supported by the actual text. In the textual version God is jealous.
Originally all the people were one culture working togeather, so God divided them into nations and invented war to weaken them.
God actually evolves a lot in the bible. Early on he is Man's enemy. To give you an idea the oldest story in the bible is not genesis but Job. And in the earliest versions the devil tormenting Job is not a fallen angel but God's trusted agent.
>>42712
Watch Christians defend this shit
Catholicism is pretty similar to our old Slavic beliefs: the God is composed of three parts, like our old god Triglav; we celebrate the birth of the son of god on the 25th of December (although originally, it was the son of the main god); we still celebrate the arrival of spring; other gods of our panthenon are now saints.
I can't say we lost much.
>>32744
>They deny our Baptism as being mere bath water.
baptists on suicide watch
>>35698
not gonna fall for this bait
>>35698
There is a website called reddit that would be perfect for you
>>42712
Yeah, but Judaism also originally didn't just have one God. So God's inconsistent behaviour is the old pantheon being retconned into one deity.
>>34832
>all people are equal
Blindness from birth or mute or deaf
Oh wait or mental illness
>Equal
Top kek
>>28610
Yes. Abrahamic religions have been very successful at destroying our past as a species.
>>43181
Take it up with Jesus. Apparently God doesn't care if you're deformed, a manlet or black.
>>43330
Im so happy to have him in my life http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vgk7MXWQOAM
>>43330
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwFPWV-qo-I
>>43153
This is true. Also back when they had multiple Gods the gods were not supposed to represent absolute good or evil. They were like other Gods where they represented aspects of nature and were ruled by great passions.
The Jews started turning their religion into Monothestic moral-faggotry after encountering the Zoroastrians. The War God Yawheh slowly started absorbing all the positive traits of other Gods until the other Gods existence was denied. Negative divine traits had to be explained as just punishments or trials by God. Later on the Christians would also emphasis Satan as another source of evil. It's not until we get to the New Testament that he is described in terrifying words like "The God of this World" or "Ruler of all Demons" and he is identified as being the serpent in Eden (with a very loose reading).
>>43376
Look, God is just autistic and cares more about rules than situation.
>>43493
It's more convinient to have an antagonist to your all inclusive God that is full of love, than it is to explain why such a god is fine with evil bullshit happening unprovoked.
>>31345
Catholicism actually took a decline, the pope was sure as hell not seen as big of a figure compared to the Byzantine Emperor for a long time. It was only when the popes started declaring crusades that he started getting powerful, and by that time they were already wrestling with the authority of the Holy Roman Emperor.
Arguably Charlemagne was the one who actually created a cultural identity within Europe.
>>43621
Charlemange didn't stick around for thousands of years, though.
I feel like polytheism is like giving faces to actually occuring phenomena and explaining the world in that way, thus satisfying human curiosity. Rather than declaring one omnipotent lord who can make anything possible, I think polytheism is better than at least the Abrahamic religions. I'm sure an example of a good monotheistic religion can be found, that is not inherently oppressive as hell, but certainly the European polytheistic religions were much better than what came to us later.
Yes, honestly. One of the reasons I was drawn to Japanese culture at first was that they still have an active polytheistic religion/mythology - it makes for much more interesting stories.
>>28610
>Do you resent the fact that polytheism died in Europe?
I don't really see polytheism as being any better or worse than monotheism and I have no idea why I would be resentful of something that happened at its most recent centuries before I was born.
>>44111
The best monotheistic religion was the first, Zoroastrianism because it was highly dualestic. The Abrahamic God cannot reconcile negative or bad traits in the world properly. We live in a world with equal opposites so the idea of the divine world being purely good doesn't reflect reality. The Devil of Zorastrianism takes on the role of all negative traits providing a counter-balance in the universe.
In general though monothesism represents the lowest form of divine structure. It's the least complicated, it's a casual approach to religion: polytheism and pantheism are far more complix. They also have the advantage of making each divine aspect something special, with it's own hidden wisdom. For instance Nature Goddesses are often also death Goddesses. This represents your circle of life and an acceptance that mortality is part of the grand design. For a farming community that has to slaughter it's animals for food by hand, they would be very aware that nature and death are linked.
>>28610
Yes, I do.
And I hate the fact that the ancient teachings of Germanic Myth were not handed down the generations.
>>44266
Because muh volkgeist.
