Why did Japan have objectively superior steel and superior swords when compared to Europe?
They didn't.
>>273216
they forged them over hundreds of years over raging manga fires while chanting their war chant, it goes "CRAAAAAAAAAWLING IN MY SKIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIN...""
>>273219
gif-related proves otherwise kazoku, prepare to have your inferior iron sliced by superior nippon steel edge.
>muh mystical east
japanese steel was shit
>>273216
>>273260
It's not bait when the Japanese archipelago was NEVER conquered by an invading force.
>>273239
what anime is that even from
>>273216
Dude, the Irish had swords before a Jap even knew what a sword was.
>>273216
Beautifully crafted swords, but not superior in anyway mate.
Please tell me this is a troll...
Japan had no iron deposits to speak of. They were forced to use iron sands, which has low concentration. It's why they fold so many damned times because it was the only way to make good steel.
India's wootz steel and Islamic Damascus steel outclasses anything Japan made. And I'd take a Kurkri, claymore, tulwar, or gladius over the katana. Even a Malay-Indonesian kris is leagues ahead of it.
>>273280
That's easy to say, nobody besides the mongols ever tried to invade japan
>>273280
Who are the Yayoi?
And the US occupation counts.
>>273216
The Japanese used human blood while forging their weaponry. This would have been considered immoral to most cultures, but it actually had an incredible effect on the steel. Thus Japan, through sacrifice, managed to create the finest weapons known to mankind.
>>273280
>>273280
Yep. Japan, never conquered. Gotta love selective memory.
>>273216
Because Europeans used heavy armor. A Katana is for slicing skin and stabbing. A European Sword is for hitting shields and armor, and, hopefully, breaking bone. You need to consider the fighting styles. A Katana would have been useless in Europe.
>>273661
Utter crap. The Katana is quite poor in the thrust and equal, if not worse, in the cut than contemporary European longswords and arming swords.
As plate armour evolved, European swords evolved to be even better in the thrust so they could exploit gaps in armour. They weren't designed for bashing people and breaking bones, that's what maces and certain facets of poleaxe were for.
>>273661
>A European Sword is for hitting shields and armor, and, hopefully, breaking bone.
No, a European sword is meant to be used when you're fighting unarmoured fellows. You'd use a pollaxe (if you're on foot, i.e. English), stick a fucker with a lance (on horse, i.e. everyone else) or you'd wrestle a guy and stick a dagger in his eye.
The only place a sword helps is in the last one, where halfswording and gripping the blade rather than the hilt (mordhau) gives you a lovely lever and hook.
How a pollaxe works is you hit the other guy's joints until they don't work anymore, then you push him over and gib him. In theory, at least. He's probably trying to do the same to you.
>>273661
Hmm, not so sure about that.
Aren't half-and-a-hand swords very similar to katanas in the way they were both made and used?
Both were bastard swords, roughly the same size and weight. The only difference was that half-and-a-hand swords were double edged and straight - i,e, with a higher focus on stabbing, and katanas single edged and curved and thus made for slashing. But both could do either.
>>273683
Katanas are serviceable in the thrust, while obviously not as good as a straight sword. As for cutting...eh, in my experience all swords cut more or less the same, desu senpai. The evolution of the european battlefield sword is a bit more complex than that, but it's close enough
>>273698
>hand and a half
>bastard
It's longsword.
Both could be used one or two handed, but you were stupid if you used either primarily one handed. Katanas tend to be heavier and far shorter than a longsword. Longswords don't have a higher focus on stabbing, they have a higher focus on being able to cut with either edge from most guard positions
>>273280
That's literally how Japan started. Korean and Chinese settlers arrived in 300BC and removed all the natives.
Chinese Zhanmadao would like to have a word about that fake you got there.
>>273808
>arrived in 300BC
why the fuck did it take them so long? It's like RIGHT there.
>>273344
and the US, also i think the russians tried during the japanese russo war
>>273280
TBF Japan was invaded a grand total of 1 time. Japan was simply too geographically isolated and distant so Japan was spared from the constant invasions from the turkic and mongolic tribes that forced China to build the longest wall in history
>>273683
The katana is obviously strictly inferior to the broadsword as a thrusting weapon and in terms of reach, but trying to argue that a one handed straight bladed sword could match a two handled curved blade in the cut is absurd.
Not even one handed slashing swords can compete with the cutting power generated by the push-pull mechanics of katana, nor the higher hardness at the cutting edge that differential hardening allowed.
And before you start lobbing weeb accusations, I actually come at this as someone familiar with modern custom chopper design where differential tempering is common, along with curved blades that wedge.
the quality of metals in japan is shit yo, hence the folded over x number of times shit
>>273216
When you have an entire culture obsessed with the way of the samurai there are definitely going to be some great products of human creativity.
>katanas were not approved for battle unless they could CLEANLY take off someone's head in one motion
Before you guys argue with your bulky claymores and such, just look at that fucking katana. So fast and efficient. Pure fucking art.
>>274805
A retarded tradition that says nothing about their effectiveness on the battlefield or in a duel. Great, they can all cut the heads off of immobile, un-armoured prisoners, they should do superbly against men with their own weapons, armour and who aren't going to kneel down and wait for someone to take a massive swing at the back of their neck.
>implying objectively
>>273661
Despite what you've been led to believe by Lord of the Rings and other such shit, a sword was NEVER the primary weapon of any Medieval soldier, be they east or west.
A sword was basically equivalent to a handgun, whereas polearms were the assualt rifles.
>>274759
What's the point in having cutting power if your opponent is wearing armour?
Because no, no Katana ever cut through armour.
>>274552
Asians are the laziest motherfuckers when it comes to colonising.
I mean how the fuck did Britain beat Japan to Australia for instance?
I mean I don't know much about Japan during the Medieval period but there was a lot of fighting I gather, but surely someone thought maybe to see what else is going on a little bit south?
>>273219
>>273236
>>273344
>besides the mongols
Bro they had the greatest empire of all time
Didn't West Africans have steel at around the same time the Japanese did?
>>274945
they were retarded when it came to water though. they also lost to the vietnamese and indonesians, because... you guessed it. water.
>>274896
Japanese are isolationists. That doesn't lend way to a whole lot of exploring.
They did try to take Korea. And they traded with Europeans and the Chinese for a while. But no they weren't big on leaving their islands until the 20th century.
>>275331
>Japan traded with China
False. There was no such thing as "trading" in the Sinosphere. Instead there was tribute. China had everything they wanted so they had no need to import anything. So for other countries to "trade" with China they needed to accept a symbolic subservient position below China and pay respect to the Chinese emperor. Then China would receive annual "tribute" from the tributary country, and in exchange would bestow upon them lavish gifts. If the country was especially liked by China then China would allow more tribute missions from them per year. This is what "trading" was like in the Far East.
In the case of Japan, they paid tribute to China only irregularly due to various reasons including internal/economic problems (sending a tribute mission itself was an enormous undertaking that took planning and money and had risks), desire for complete sovereignty, or because China wouldn't receive tribute from them because Japan wasn't deemed worthy enough. So, Japan (usually independent daimyos) did the next best thing and paid respect and gave tribute to Korean kings. Japanese isolation in terms of receiving continental culture is a widespread myth that should easily be dispelled as soon as you compound your Japanese studies together with Chinese and Korean primary sources.
>>273297
Sacred blacksmith.
It's not bad.
They do jerk off to katanas to much though.
>>275163
They were also stalled in India because the humidity fucked with their bows - so water again.
>>275839
Also their Khan Ogedei died because he drank too much - so water too.
![NanbanDo[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/fmKbZZs.jpg "NanbanDo[1].jpg")
>>273251
Japanese steel was just fine.
It was their iron ore that was shit. Which is why it took so much more labor to produce steel weapons. Iron/Steel armor also never caught on big because of the expense. Once the Portugese started trading with Japan in the 16th century. Japanese nobles started ordering european plate armor.
>>273661
Yeah because they're fucking shit at creating good war technology.
They were pretty much useless in Asia too, which is why nobody actually used them in a fucking battle, and the people who did were basically muh honor fedora wearers with their shitty little sword with shitty thrusting abilities (read: The most fucking important aspect of trying to kill somebody before guns were real) and shitty chopping abilities.
Making delicate cuts along flesh and skin is a stupid way to try to kill somebod.
I honestly hate katanas and everything that looks like one.
>>273661
>SWORDS
>HITTING ARMOR
>BREAKING BONE
THEN WHY SPEND SHIT TONS OF MONEY MAKING A BLADE WHEN YOU CAN JUST USE A MACE OR WARHAMMER?
OH RIGHT BECAUSE THAT'S NOT WHAT THEY USED SWORS FOR AND MACES AND WARHAMMERS WERE ALREADY DEVELOPED TO DEAL WITH HEAVY ARMOR!
>>275854
What did the Mongolians do that pissed of Poseidon?
>>273216
>Steel swords
>superior
That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Bastard Sword" bullshit that's going on right now. Macuahuitl deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.
I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine macuahuitl in Tenochtitlan for two goats and three sacks of cacao beans (that's about $6,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my macuahuitl.
Aztec smiths spend weeks working on a single macuahuitl and sharpen the edges up to a dozen times to produce the finest weapons known to mankind.
Macuahuitl are thrice as sharp as European swords and thrice as hard for that matter to. Anything a longsword can cut through, a macuahuitl can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a macuahuitl could easily chop a Spanish conquistador, his horse, and their plate armor in half with a simple vertical slash.
Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Central America? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Aztecs and their macuahuitl of destruction. Even in the sixteenth century, Spanish explorers targeted the macuahuitl-wielding Aztecs with smallpox-infected blankets first because their killing power was feared and respected.
So what am I saying? Macuahuitl are simply the best swords that the world has ever seen, and thus, require more respect.
>>273216
>>273216
The katana was functional, there were probably European swords with better steal but it wasn't some piece of junk. That said they did mass produce cheep swords for foot soldiers that were junk, so much they were refereed to as "cut and throw away".
It was mostly a side arm, there were extra long battle field swords called choto or nodachi, but they were only popular for a short period, and naginata and spears were more common for melee combat. naginata had the same general type of blade but they had an extra think cross section so they wouldn't snap even under alot of pressure.
>>276055
Weren't Yari and yumi the most popular weapons in samurai warfare? Pretty sure most casualties came from bows.
>>275884
Hubris.
It's always hubris.
>>276084
>Samurai are mounted archers meme.
Only during the beginning (i.e. 700's-1000's AD)
Afterward samurai did all sorts of shit due to increasing violence that ended the ritualized bow-fighting & duelling.
And yes, swords were used a lot. Spears break and the press of combat gets too close for spears
>>273216
>>273280
want to see us try it again?
>>276084
>Yari and yumi
Depends on the era, Yari or spears were almost unheard of between the Kamakura and Sengoku eras, but made a huge comeback around 1450. This was because massed infantry made a comeback, and the spear was best suited for them, before that samurai fought in open order and the naginata and nodachi were better suited for it.
The yumi or bow was the main weapon for most of japanese history, but in terms of casualties it was eventually displaced by guns.
>>273216
Why did Japan have objectively superior guns and tactics when compared to contemporary Europe?
>>273216
i don't get how so many people fell for the bait
>>273661
>A European Sword is for hitting shields and armor, and, hopefully, breaking bone.
no
>>276115
Nobunaga Oda was a serious westaboo and went balls to the wall with guns. Took over the two major production towns and just started cranking out guns and using them en masse.
The use of firearm volleys and rank rotations at the battle of nagashino changed the perception of guns in Japan.
After that, they didn't stop making them. Even after the tokugawa shogunate cut off all ties with outsiders, they were still cranking out firearms.
>superior nuppon steel
>>275331
This. Guys didn't even have proper bluewater ships until they industrialized, which is why that 12 v 200 naval battle with Korea worked of the way it did. Koreans had heavy ships that could carry lots of cannon while Jap ships were basically still operating on galley ram-and-board tactics.
>>276689
It hit the most armored part. Had it hit the lighter gray section above it where there was less plating it might have actually done something besides dent it.
Though iirc those Zeros were notoriously lightly built.
>>277804
*worked out
>>277804
Japanese did have seagoing ships.
But mostly for trade with China/Southeast Asians and were pretty primitive. The design was straight up static from 1100's-1800's. A single mast with square sails.
>>277815
>Though iirc those Zeros were notoriously lightly built.
Correct, they were made as light as possible so they would be manoeuvrable and agile, but this sort of in return made them slow as fuck so once Allies started shitting out fast planes the Japs pretty much couldn't retaliate.
Although it's kind of silly how the Japs started to make more and more retarded ways of suiciding (Rocket powered suicide plane)
>>273216
Here's your reply.
>>277836
You see my point though, they did it just well enough to lug shit across the sea without making sailing a science like other island/water based peoples.
Single handed sword with shield is superior.
>>273236
back 2 reddit
>Why did Japan have objectively superior steel
Will this meme ever die?
Did Europe have a lot of iron?
>>278998
The britlards did.
>>276689
>>279027
>great coal deposits
>great iron deposits
>well defensible island
It isn't any wonder why they ruled the world.
>>278776
>>278776
There is like one illustration of a samurai armed with a sword and shield, however it didnt seem to be a very popular way to fight.
odachi, naginata and yari had the reach advantage, and the standard length katana was a side arm so it made more since to arm a guy with a bow and sword rather than a sword and shield.
That said the Japanese did have shields, but they were tower shields used to protect a large group of men from arrows
>>273280
You do realize the katana is considered the side-arm of a samurai?
>Person 1: No one can mess with America, we're so damn powerful!
>Person 2: Because of your nuclear arms pile, incredibly advanced military, and large influence over t-
>Person 1: No, because our 1911 pistols are so fucking good that I feel like telling everyone on /his/ about it right now.
>>280684
>MUH FUDDY FIVE
>STOPPAN POWAAAHHH
If anyone is interested in how samurai actually trained with swords and other weapons, here are some videos of some of the oldest surviving styles dating back to the sengoku and nambokucho eras
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i72B6XCw0Bk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbTrKhvxRvA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Had9oTYGiTs
i think people in this thread might enjoy this guys videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/scholagladiatoria
he knows what he's talking about and he goes into all this type of stuff. he even made like a 7 part video about the katana to show it's weaknesses and strengths and how they compare to euro swords.
this guy isn't lindbeige tier either, lindy is an annoying twat larp faggot
>>273280
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Japan
>>275553
Go home Chan
>>274896
Most of the cultures in the world didn't really think much of exploring unknown waters. The only early societies that really did it en masse that I can think of are the Indonesians and Polynesians.
It makes sense, after all. If you head out into the sea just to explore there's a great likelihood that you're just going to hit nothing, get shipwrecked, or what not. The only reason that Europeans started to get into seafaring in the 15th century is because of the Ottoman hegemony over the Middle East meant that they could control the prices on all the goods from India and China and Europe couldn't really do much about it, so there was great incentive to try and find another route.
>>282201
This. It seems so obvious now that it's done but at the time nobody bothered. Think about yourself, There so much to see and so many opportunities in the world yet you have likely only ever been to one or two other countries. Why? Because it's huge risk and expense and where you are now is too comfy.
>>282178
He's ok. Like a lot of Hema guys he has a bit of a chip on his shoulder about katana fan boys, though at least he tries to be professional about it.
You've never met an Asian guy with a vendetta... have you?
