Is Environmental Determinism a racist discourse?
Racism is racist, and is something that emerged from colonialist ideology.
Unfortunately, the worst part of its legacy is the self-flagellation of anti-racism today.
According to most current geography professors, and textbooks. Geography classes right now are unanimously critical theory and based on an appeal to novelty fallacy. Part of this involves geography academics being vocally frightened by the revival of "old" ideas, i.e. environmental determinism, because they're associated in the critical mode with outdated ideas that are perceived as reversing social progress.
The usual example is comparing popular writers like Jared Diamond to Friedrich Ratzel, because Friedrich Ratzel thought environment shaped culture, and was racist. The Nazis also thought environment shaped culture, and were racist. To most geography PhDs this makes Ratzel a proto-Nazi and Jared Diamond a neo-racist, neo-fascist reviving the "dangerous" idea that environment ----> society. Geography departments today think Jared Diamond is racist/fascist and so is environmental determinism, but only because of a very weird and convoluted combination of Godwin's Law/Reducto ad Hitlerium and Appeal to Novelty that gets peddled to undergrads.
>>407627
I haven't read much books on the subject but from what I know it seems like a perfectly logical conclusion.
Of course I believe it shouldn't be blown out of proportion though.
>>407686
Despite this being the most tired argument in geography, the fact that 21st geographers always come to the exact same conclusion that environmental determinism is a horrible nightmare is kind of weird.
>>407777
Kind of. Usually the only accepted arguments in academic Geography right now are those that say geography is a matter of "discourses", i.e. most geographic causes/effects or problems aren't real things but just stories people tell or force on each other based on an oppressive, socially constructed idea of how space and place work
>>407777
>At first glance it sounds like a "nurture beats nature" kind of deal as applied to cultures
No, it's basic materialism. Material resources are necessary for cultures to develop materially. Europeans lucked out.
>>407811
Sounds weird. Not sure I'm picturing it right.
>>407811
I'm shocked at the amount of doublethink inherent in current academia. I've had a professor talk in Anthro 101 about how there's no such thing as race, and then in Physical Anthropology had to learn skeletal differences in races for tests...
>>407829
Suppose it depends what he considers "race". Races are loose categories but they are useful for different fields, like Medicine.
>>407823
It has to do with a post-modernist arguments that might render some cultures not equal, or far lesser than others. The fear of geographical determinism is that it renders things like "agency" useless or else arbitrary in the face of a greater force.
>>407818
>Europeans lucked out
Sort of this. Some cultures had the resources, and just didn't use them in the same manner.
>>407852
The idea of agency itself falls under a lot of fire in geography academia.
There's also a predominant strain of political geography called "critical geopolitics" that also dislikes the idea of agency itself in human relationships with land/environment, because it sees any power, conflict, or the use of land and territory in relation to those things as inherently wrong to discuss except when that discussion seeks to condemn any/all of the above.
>Academics continuing to spout radi-cool nonsense rather than engage with ideas that make them uncomfortable
News at 11
>>407811
I don't understand. Would they say for instance that nomadic steppe peoples affinity and use of horses, and everything that follows from that, wasn't the result of their geographic location?
>>407894
Depends on where in academia. Some majors and departments can and do actively engage with real, problem-solving focused ideas in any good lecture or discussion course.
>>407918
Just beginning with that question itself is considered a major no and a stepping stone to problematic discourses in geographic research. For one thing, it implies environment leads to cultural adaptation, which is seen as potentially racist and wouldn't be able to make it into any current geography journals. For another, it's a question that can't be answered by engaging with post-modernism or critical theory, which besides now much less popular Marxian theory are considered the only appropriate way to be a geography researcher.
>>407627
How would it be? The environment a civilization exists in is obviously very important to what it can achieve.
Maybe some obscure 19th century pseudoscientist with zany theories embarrassed the concept of environmental determinism but there is nothing inherently racist about it.
>>408049
>Environmental determinism that posits that environment influences human brains
of course the environment can influence the course of evolution but there needs to be a better distinction between environment and genetics
in theory you could attribute everything to environment, which would make it useless for describing things, environment generally means the immediate environment, largely out of control of humans
>>408066
>Maybe some obscure 19th century pseudoscientist with zany theories embarrassed the concept of environmental determinism
Ironically, this is the main argument against it, which the average geography prof expects their students to take as common sense
>>407627
Why is this book so controversial? It doesn't say anything that isn't true.
Do people think that the vast conquering force of white hegemony just happened without resources?
>>407651
>Unfortunately, the worst part of its legacy is the self-flagellation of anti-racism today.
Suuuure it is White McWhitebread. Thank god all that horrible racism is over, but now YOU'RE the victim. I mean, wow.
>>408142
Butthurt stormfags who think white people popped out of the ground with IQs of 140.
>>408094
>there needs to be a better distinction between environment and genetics
There isn't, though. The environment shapes a species' genetics, and that species in turn shapes the environment. The expression of genetic traits can be totally inhibited in the phenotype due to environmental conditions.
>environment generally means the immediate environment, largely out of control of humans
>largely out of control of humans
haha oh wow
>>407651
>Racism is racist, and is something that emerged from colonialist ideology.
You think people weren't hating other races before colonialism?
>inb4 every conquest ever is colonialism
>>407818
>Europe lucked out
hardly
pre industrial europe was a cold, resources poor place, constantly battling plagues. They only ever advanced during warmer than normal periods when staple crops could get to surplus harvests.
meanwhile egypt, india, fertile crescent, and china had warmer weather, greater supplies of fresh water, rich soils, animals that could be domesticated to do work, etc.
I don't see the problem, it's been something people have been saying since at least Rudyard Kipling. As he said when talking about White Man's Burden, it's not that Europe was better than India and Southeast Asia because of some kind of inherent quality. Europe was just lucky enough to have the resources to allow civilizations to progress quicker, so it reached higher technological levels sooner.
>>408406
Yeah, just look at this hell hole. It's amazing any kind of civilization could flourish here.
>>408406
Europe was actually weirdly warm for most of history.
Even scandinavia could bear lush grapes.
>cold
Nah
>resources poor
Except the most fertile land in the world besides India, tin, lead, copper, etc.
>>408415
it is more likely that India, China, and Muslims stagnated from having large stable empires. While post Roman europe was constant competition of warring states.
>>408406
>They only ever advanced during warmer than normal periods
Retard spotted. Little Ice Age lasted from 1300 to 1850, during this time the following happened:
Renaissance
Invention of the printing press
Age of discovery
Enlightement
Industrial revolution
>>408291
Way to quite literally prove his point.
Nigger do it every time.
>/pol/ doesn't like it because it removes agency and reduces cultures to the haves and have nots
>leftists don't like it because it ignores contingency
Is there any group in general that actually likes Guns Germs and Steel? The academic right?
>>408738
No, because it's mostly garbage.
The Wealth of Nations or Why nations fail is much more detailed and insightful
>>408311
>largely out of control of humans
did humans invent the cow? or wheat?
I actually thought about that but thought I wouldn't need to mention it
>>407627
No. But its pretty stupid.
For one thing, supposedly, Envrionemntal Determinism has it that being in areas that are abundant in resources and dont have environmental challenges like the 4 seasons in which Winter fucks everything up = people remain tribal and can't into civilization or agriculture.
Which isn't the case at all in the Mayan Jungles, India, Southeast Asia.
Meanwhile, supposedly the challenge of winter forces people to organize in Temperate Zones, which births civilizations. But in history you had tribalshits in Temperate Zones like North America and Northern Europe, in which civilization is brought by an outlier entity.
The main problem with Environmental Determinism is not that it is racist, but it seeks to place cunts in cause and effect categories while there are WAAAAY too many exceptions to make it a workable hypothesis.
Its like saying "Every society in Jungles = tribal, hunter gatherer societies." and then placing the following disclaimers
>Except in the Yucatan
>Except in India
>Except in Southeast Asia.
It's a theory that shoots itself in the foot numerous times.
>>408738
it is a mediocre book, the only reason it gets any attention is because it knocks over the evil whitey strawman
>>408142
>Do people think that the vast conquering force of white hegemony just happened without resources?
Yes friend, Africa isn't known for its abundance of resources. The white man is the only man that has a lot of cargo.
I don't understand what state of mind you have to be in to seriously believe culture and the human mind account for nothing in the development of civilisation.
>>409493
Are you familiar with chaos theory? It's the theory about systems where minor differences in starting conditions can have a profound on the future state of the system.
My university had a chaotic water wheel. A water spigot poured on top of the water wheel. As it flowed down the sides it filled up containers on the edge of the wheel with water. Water built up in the containers caused the wheel to spin around, but eventually the water wheel would stop and start turning the opposite way. It would switch between clockwise and anti-clockwise chaotically. No matter how well you kept the standardized the starting conditions the wheel would end up turning in never before seen combinations within minutes.
Humanity is a chaotic system. A minor change like one person dying can change the fate of the world. Humans like the idea of that because it makes us as individuals feel important. But we should focus on the factors that ARE understandable and relatively deterministic first because there isn't as much to learn from pure chance.
What environmental factors caused the culture? How did the environment shape their neighbors? How did interaction with their neighbors shape them and was that interaction deterministic or a point of chaos?
>>409374
But the current Indians came from much colder climates than they are living in. They are not natives to those lands, and in fact genocided the previous inhabitants.
>>409517
So what you're saying is that human culture is chaotic and impossible to understand, and therefore we should pretend it's irrelevant?
I disagree with both of those statements.
>>409331
This made me wet. Please continue.
>>409405
And yet the average pomo geography academic will tell you it's racist in favor of white people because so were similar arguments in the 19th century
>>409529
>So what you're saying is that human culture is chaotic and impossible to understand, and therefore we should pretend it's irrelevant?
Not irrelevant, fundamentally unpredictable
>>409525
There was still civilizations that emerged within the jungles of India.
>>409539
The same could be said of biological evolution but that does not stop us from observing it and drawing general, though often stipulated, conclusions.
>>409545
Yes, conclusions which are highly susceptible to unknown variables.
This is also the reason why the social sciences produce such bad results, because social interaction is extremely chaotic
>>409529
No, I'm not saying that at all. That's the opposite of what I'm saying.
I'm saying that some aspects are more determined than others and we should focus on the determined bits before we jump to the conclusion that an event was largely undetermined, a example of the chaotic nature of humanity.
For example, was the Mongol Empire solely the result of one man or would a different man have done something similar had Temujin never been born? You could just assume the former and not learn anything further about the question, or you could look deeper and find the factors that wouldn't have changed had Temujin not been born, like the fact that Mongolia received uncharacteristically high rainfall the years leading up to the Mongol conquests. You can also look at the factors that led to the decline of the Song dynasty. Was it simply bad management? Was it climatic? Was it unavoidable soil degradation? Was it poor management and if so, what factors led to the incompetent management?
It's important to understand the causality of it all instead of just leaving one's understanding at dates and names.
>>409543
India has seasonal climates tho, and they didn't come from India.
>>409525
>genocided
>t. proud tamizha
>>409604
The Injuns had been genociding eachother out and dominating eachothers lands far before we had ever arrived.
And before that they killed the native inhabitants of NA.
If I live in a country that educates me and gives me access to universities such that I eventually get a degree in quantum chromodynamics, is my degree MY accomplishment or the accomplishment of my circumstances?
>>409610
That's a false dichotomy. It's your achievement, since a degree is something you've earned and wasn't freely given to you. To say such an achievement requires a certain level of educational infrastructure isn't the same as saying it hasn't been earned by virtue of its attainability being subject to factors outside of your control.
>>409634
So then why are people wigging out about how Diamond supposedly is nullifying all European accomplishments? England had lots of coal and iron and was benefitting from lots of cheap cotton from India. That doesn't mean England doesn't deserve a pat on the back for starting the industrial revolution.
>>409661
Did Diamond actually say that cold winters led to civilization?
>>409668
Was taking a shot at Environmental Determinism in general. It's such an outdated theory.
>>409676
I think that's why the other anon called it a strawman then. I don't think many people today would agree that equatorial peoples are inherently lazy as long since relevant people used to claim and most of this thread was about Diamond.
>>409743
But that is what Environmental Determinism is.
Certain Environment = Specific Type of Society developing there.
>and most of this thread was about Diamond.
Dont give a shit. I addressed my comment to OP and he didn't specify.
>>407627
No.
If anything the opposite is true.p
>>407627
>Is Environmental Determinism a racist discourse?
No, I think the current discourse which makes liberal white professors at college thinking they need to be white saviors to minorities is a worse kind of racism to be honest.
It literally denies people who just have a different skin color their agency, and infantilizes them.
>>407627
It could be, if the implication is that it shaped people to be inferior.
>>409661
Monsoons are a lot more complicated than "wet and dry", and Indians didn't originate in India.
They were from a migratory group.
the civilizations that bore from them were nothing more than sedentary peoples with some agriculture.
>>409753
You presented, and continue to present an overly reductive version of what environmental determinism is saying. 'If you live Y, your culture will be like B" is what exactly no person claims. That environmental factors create a disposition to certain cultural trajectories is all that environmental determinism says.
>>409862
Environmental Determinism is seen as a Lovecraftian horror by Human Geography professors, grad students, and postdocs for the same reason they see Geopolitics as a similar otherworldly terror
Because present day Geography rejects positivism, because positivism is seen as serving power and/or status quo, which are two things that Geography academics, being fanatical po-mo fundamentalists, completely reject.
>>409753
More people know of Jared Diamond than of Friedrich Ratzel in all frankness.
>>409743
Doesn't another popular author (Robert Kaplan iirc) imply something like this in one of his many tangential asides? I like his books but they're sometimes rambly and make bizarre generalizations about foreign cultures.
>>409534
'Racism' is innately hieraching and exclusionary; the discourse of the interlocutor is inherently privileged by the action.
>>407686
Great summary.
tldr : cultural marxists ruin everything.
>>410276
Jews might've gotten the ball rolling, but most CMs today are not Jewish.
>>410252
Marxian thought existed in Geography long before Critical Theory, but unlike Critical and Post-Structuralist "Geographies", actually made some kind of sense. See: World-Systems Theory, a Marxian-derived theoretical school which has a sidelined but important place in International Relations and Sociology and was once prevalent in Human Geography.
>>410276
A lot of cultural marxists were jewish, yes, but I think it would be reductionist to ascribe cultural marxism entirely to jews.
>>409970
Holy shit I had no idea that academic geography was so fucking deluded.
>>410558
>Saying a peasant tripping over changes the fate of an empire is just plain retarded.
Nevertheless, it's fun to read science fiction and experimental alt-history musings based on the idea that it does.
>>407627
This is the state of academia in 2015. A book written by a liberal jew race denier to "debunk" genetic determinism is nowdays considered "racist" and literally worse than Hitler. Is there any point even trying anymore?
>>410314
>A lot of [made up conspiracy theory] were jewish, yes, but I think it would be reductionist to ascribe [made up conspiracy theory] entirely to jews.
Behold the /pol/ moderate.
>>410558
Some things are set in stone and others are largely dependent on chance occurrences. For example, imagine if a key physicist hadn't contributed to science and the atomic bomb hadn't been used in WW2. Without a demonstration of the bomb during wartime it may have been used in a future war on a much larger scale and drastically changing the course of human history. That is an example of chaos.
>>407852
So much objectively false drivel masquerading as unassailable truth.
>>410638
/pol/ is the board of rationality.
>>407852
Oh dear, was that pic supposed to be serious?
> Epidemic disease only became a factor post-conquest
>>410724
I know, right? The fact that people take GGS serious at all is hilarious. The entire Zebra argument should have shown the world what kind of "Academic" diamond was.
>>410782
I think it's talking about epidemic diseases like chicken pox, ebola and the like being an issue in the new world post-conquest, for persons who didn't inherit the antibodies maternally.
>>410784
Diamond suffers from the usual curse of academics who write popular nonfiction outside of their academic field. That's not specific to him.
Well it makes sense as an idea but diamond's seems to be full of inconsistencies . However to say that Europe had vastly more conducive environmental conditions for nurturing successful agrarian economies than central africa shouldn't be something that needs to be argued about.
Environmental determinism, like many worthy concepts, is dragged down by its main popularizer. It's idiotic to say environment has no effect, but you can't talk about possible environmental effects without getting dragged into a discussion about Jared Diamond and the effects he speculates about.
>>408406
> constantly battling plagues
This is only a problem when you already have a technosocial base that supports high population density and/or frequent travel.
>>410558
But saying a king tripping changes the fate of an empire is plain true and saying a merchant tripping changes the fate of an empire is plain plausible. Effects propagate through interdependencies, some points have more dependencies than others.
>>407852
>first point
>there was never a silk road
What are you doing m8
>>411557
>Environmental determinism, like many worthy concepts, is dragged down by its main popularizer
It was considered a discredited theory in Geography long before it was popularized by Jared Diamond. The idea that there are social or cultural effects to physical environmental features has frightened geographers for a while and long been considered a troubling and invalid argument amongst them.
>>411694
>It was considered a discredited theory in Geography long before it was popularized by Jared Diamond.
And now it's considered Jared Diamond's theory.
>>410784
>The entire Zebra argument should have shown the world what kind of "Academic" diamond was.
Sorry, but posting a guy riding a zebra doesn't indicate domestication.
>>411864
that said though the majority of domesticated animals were introduced into europe rather than domesticated locally and a good number of the ones that were domesticated locally were not the most useful of species, I don't think anyone is going to argue the rabbit has been more important to human society than the horse
>>407818
>>411972
This is a map of what is used today for agriculture. You need a map of potential fertility 10000 years ago. This mail doesn't say that north America is fertile but rather that it is used extensively (thanks to modern technology) for agriculture.
depends on who you ask, it's considered so in academia which is weird
most popular nonfiction is hated by academics though
>>407627
Is that what they call Magic Dirt theory?
>>411972
Land used != land capable of being used.
That area lists the area North of Kazakhstan as being 90% used. I lived there and the land is absolutely horrible and poor as shit.
You can't grow anything there except for shitty carrots and potatoes which all the Colorado bugs eat anyway.
>>412919
Russian?
>>407852
Geez, such blatantly obvious strawmans in that pic.
>>410638
>made up conspiracy theory
Where did I claim that cultural marxism was a conspiracy? Nice strawman there, faggot.
Are you going to deny that the Frankfurt school never existed?
>>407852
6 I would disagree with.
Aztecs were beaten largely because everyone turned against them and they became outnumbered by opportunistic enemies.
Also western "technological superiority" was useless in the jungle, which is why in reality Cortez and actually dumped their armour for native armour which was better suited.
Also plagues did help, a fucking lot.
>>415237
>Are you going to deny
Are you going to claim*
>>415237
>Are you going to deny that the Frankfurt school never existed?
Noone does, but "Cultural marxism" (a literal oxymoron) has nothing to do with the Frankfurt school.
Explain how Michel Foucault was a "Cultural Marxist"
>>410638
"cultural marxism" just means cultural materialism (not the anthropological kind really)
Its a retarded name but the concept is fine
culture + materialism.
its retarded to think that culture and social organization is not in some way directed by material dialectic.
You can't say patriarchy/racism/economics/whatever effects culture without admitting to some level of cultural materialism.
I do really hate the term "cultural marxism" though. It fucking rustles me so bad.
>>415305
>Noone does, but "Cultural marxism" (a literal oxymoron) has nothing to do with the Frankfurt school.
If your little fee-feels are hurt by the use of the term "cultural marxism", I'll use the term "frankfurt school" from now on, you lwittle bwabwy.
>Explain how Michel Foucault was a "Cultural Marxist"
Point out the post where I claimed Michel Foucault belonged to the frankfurt school.
>>410943
If anything, the Zebra argument is backing Diamond's theory, idiot.
>>410622
It's like white supremacists and librul crybabies unite against the common enemy, so bizarre.
>>407651
>Racism is racist, and is something that emerged from colonialist ideology.
Nice meme. Racism has always existed. People just stuck to their own though. There are many ancient Arab texts talking about how violent and stupid niggers are.
>>415570
No actually RACISM officially has not always existed.
I'm the guy who originally posted that and I'm not actually disagreeing with you.
Pragmatically, racism has always existed.
But the organized movement of racism, contemporaneous to colonialism, took that propagandistic type of attack, that can absolutely be seen in history in various forms, and really consolidated its basis with pseudo-science and a consistent ideology.
Even pragmatically, racism was a big thing for racism in history. But yeah, it's totally existed, in practice, beforehand.
>>415570
"beyond [known peoples of black West Africa] to the south there is no civilization in the proper sense. There are only humans who are closer to dumb animals than to rational beings. They live in thickets and caves, and eat herbs and unprepared grain. They frequently eat each other. They cannot be considered human beings." "Therefore, the Negro nations are, as a rule, submissive to slavery, because (Negroes) have little that is (essentially) human and possess attributes that are quite similar to those of dumb animals, as we have stated."-Ibn Khaldun (1332- 1406)
>>415605
Could you say that with little less buzzwords.
"We know that the Zanj (blacks) are the least intelligent and the least discerning of mankind, and the least capable of understanding the consequences of actions."-Jahiz, Kitab al-Bukhala (The Book of Misers)
"Like the crow among mankind are the Zanj [African Blacks] for they are the worst of men and the most vicious of creatures in character and temperament."- Jahiz, Kitab al-Hayawan, vol. 2
Al Jahiz (781–869)
>>415654
>buzzwords.
Or you could learn the language without resorting to memes like 'buzzwords'.
>>415605
"A man of discernment said: The people of Iraq ... do not come out with something between blonde, buff and blanched coloring, such as the infants dropped from the wombs of the women of the Slavs and others of similar light complexion; nor are they overdone in the womb until they are burned, so that the child comes out something between black, murky, malodorous, stinking, and crinkly-haired, with uneven limbs, deficient minds, and depraved passions, such as the Zanj, the Somali, and other blacks who resemble them. The Iraqis are neither half-baked dough nor burned crust but between the two." -Ibn al-Faqih al-Hamadani, Mukhtasar Kitab al-Buldan, 903 AD
Are you trying to tell me Racism didn't really exist even though Arabs used to think niggers make the best slaves because they were stupid. It was all white people's fault.
>>415675
Or you could not talk like a faggot trying to sound smart by using big words. I understand half those words anyway but your point is still lost. Maybe you should learn how to communicate properly.
>>415692
>Are you trying to tell me Racism didn't really exist
No, in fact I told you the exact opposite of that.
Can you read? I know it existed, but colonial racism is taking racism as an actual practice and ramping it up. Thems the breaks.
>>415705
You're fucking mentally incapable, mate. Start again, from grade school.
>>407627
Kinda. Under Jareds logic Japan should be a third world shithole, yet it isnt.
>>415692
they're saying that racism, in the form of "discrimination against people who are unlike Us" has always existed, but the "scientific racism" arbitrarily ascribing intelligence/stupidity to physical characteristics is relatively new, 19th century phenomena
>>415725
Not that guy, but he's right. Why bother using a bunch of nonsense when you could easily sum up your point in a sentence or two?
>b-but you just don't understand what I'm saying
No, we all understand what you're saying, we're saying you look like a fool for trying to look like hot shit with a bunch of big words on a chinese cartoon image board.
You're basically arguing semantics at this point and trying your hardest to make a distinction where it is not even needed on racism because
>muh ebil colonialism
>>416099
>but the "scientific racism" arbitrarily ascribing intelligence/stupidity to physical characteristics is relatively new
>arbitrarily ascribing intelligence/stupidity to physical characteristics
see
>>415692
>comes out something between black, murky, malodorous, stinking, and crinkly-haired, with uneven limbs, deficient minds, and depraved passions, such as the Zanj, the Somali, and other blacks who resemble them. The Iraqis are neither half-baked dough nor burned crust but between the two."
How much double think do you guys have to do to make it look like racism is a new thing when it's just always fucking been this way? You can slap a coat of paint on a rusted car, but the car is still a rusted piece of shit and not some restored antique.
>>416401
>Not that guy
lol you literally are though, and butthurt as fuck
>for trying to look like hot shit with a bunch of big words on a chinese cartoon image board.
I notice you left out the anonymous part because of how retarded that would make you look, great job
>>408291
Bigot detected
Why can't we just all recognize the reality, which is that lighter skin = higher intelligence
>>418549
because that's not true. even if browner people do on average have a lower intelligence, it's not because they have dark skin.
>this thread
>>421740
Not even close to accurate, that image.
Ronald Reagan was a jew-lover.
>>418575
Uh duh, all their energy goes toward baking their skin brown instead of powering their brains
>2015
>not knowing chemistry
fucking tard
>>421740
>Ronald Reagan
Either the retard who made that pic thinks Reagan was a nazi (lel), or he thinks a bunch of nazis worship Reagan. Both are incorrect.
>>418131
Keep telling yourself that buddy. Seeing as you haven't actually given an argument, it's clear you don't know what the fuck your talking about.
>>421802
>Seeing as you haven't actually given an argument
lol you just can't fucking read you complete mongoloid
>hurr hurr da words 2 big 4 me
here's a simple breakdown
>pragmatically
that big word means 'in practical use', got that?
so practically, but not officially as the movement known as 'racism', racism has always existed.
>contemporaneous to colonialism
contemporaneous = existing simultaneously. if you've ever read a history book, you would have come across this word before, but you clearly don't read or else you wouldn't have thrown a shitfit about basic vocabulary.
officially, as a pseudo-scientific, ideological movement, racism is contemporaneous to colonialism, k?
>propagandistic
it's in the word. right there. racism was used as a form of propaganda to justify and promote practices and prejudices by colonialists.
there, all of the BIG words and their completely justified uses. they're within completely reasonable context. you are literally illiterate and retarded if you still have an issue.
>>423434
Holy shit you're so fucking mad, I can see it through the internet. I already told you I already understand every word of your sophistry, get it through your thick skull. I'm not complaining about big words, I'm calling you out thinking yourself superior in your pretentiousness that is so common to /lit/ards.
There's no racist "movement", in all your reaching you just think there is arbitrarily. You're drawing conclusions where they don't exist to cherry pick what's done by
>muh ebil colonialism
And what is just plain old racism to save face in being so fucking wrong.
Nice job throwing a shit fit though, you sure are a credit to academia trying to prop yourself up as superior. Stay mad retard.
>>423589
>There's no racist "movement"
Spotted the guy who's gone arguing for too long and will say any stupid shit that goes through his mind.
>>423610
>>407627
>the truth
>racist
Lol no.
How come the Sami and other northern Eurasian people could domesticate the reindeer, but North Americans could not domesticate the deer?
>>423589
>There's no racist "movement", in all your reaching you just think there is arbitrarily. You're drawing conclusions where they don't exist to cherry pick what's done by
>>muh ebil colonialism
So you're literally historically illiterate?
Great, thanks for the confirmation.
You might want to learn about the actual history of racism, its development in the enlightenment, and its ideological application, before just making shit up. You're flat-out retarded and denying the objective reality, sounding like a real /pol/ack to be honest.
>>423589
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Africa#References
Y'all are missing Diamond's big qualifier (repeated many times) that he is looking at "the broadest pattern of history", from about 15,000 ya to the present. He freely admits that geography can't explain things like Europe conquering the New World while China languished.
At that scale, yeah, it's pretty convincing to point out certain environmental factors that could have had the effect of speeding up certain processes that led to domination of one culture over another. Availability of domesticable plants and animals, extremes of climate, and major axes of continents are hard to argue with as influences.
>>423965
The usual academic critique is that "broad patterns in history" are a scary and troubling idea that people use as an excuse to do bad things
A leetle diagram 4 u
>>423976
>south Asia, south east Asia, central Africa
>failure of Euro colonization
>>423993
>Gandhi
>Dien Bien Phu
>Mau Mau
C'mon bro, you know that compared to North America etc., those places got rid of the colonists pretty fast, and the colonists were never even close to being the majority.
>>415826
Because Jared although a physiologist he is employing stuff from other fields he has little experience in.
Guys I had the thought, having recently read Herodotus and Thucydides, that geography matters less than politics in "success." Generally I was impressed with the ability of the Greeks to beat the Persians because they had a more rational (sort of democratic) political system.
Obviously this idea needs to be fleshed out, but I think it can perhaps apply more aptly to the European success story
>>410770
That is a retarded thing to say even if you are trolling.
>>424011
China was the wests bitch tho.
>>408435
Uh no it couldn't. There are records of Nordic people being blown them fuck away by wild grapes while travelling through north America.
>>408435
Scandinavia had a coast and the ocean currents which heavily affected the climate compared to say The parts of Canada/Russia on the same latitude
>>408291
>White McWhitebread
Pretty offensive desu senpai. The correct term is Saltine American
>>424183
Well being a bitch is better than being the whore
>>424320
You see being a bitch is that you are forced into it with it the power dynamic in your favour.
Being a whore is that you and the client agreed on a price to perform the sexual acts and you are on equal terms and you get bonuses
Europe is America's whore. French Africa is France's bitch key difference.
>>424353
Thank you my friend for that insightful information
>>409340
>did humans invent the cow?
Yes, humans basically did invent the cow.
>>424404
Sure but we didn't 'invent' the species necessary to breed cows from
>>424420
that wasn't the question now was it?k
>>424426
Could have been implied as a necessity for 'cows to be invented'
>>424149
There is a book called culture and carnage that is a direct response to ggs.
It's basically about how Western Armies of free citizens never lose to Eastern slaves Armies.
>>407651
Racism has always existed, way before colonialism you fucking sjw
>>425564
yeah too bad colonialists took the casual fun too far and ruined it for everyone, you fucking retard
>>409491
China was the superior force until Europeans went nuts with guns.
Science is science. 'scientific racism' is an oxymoron, science does not care about peoples opinions, it's just an observation of what happens in nature.
>>425564
He means that ideologies that identified racism as a structure/concept only emerged after the colonial era.
>>427601
And the most important thing to remember in saying that, is that contemporary race realists have been called out on their most popular works as pseudo-scientific bullshit artists.
>>407627
>Is Environmental Determinism a racist discourse?
Of course it is.
At least according to the niche of internet outrage culture and clickbait articles.
So is being white, speaking while white, breathing while white, existing while white, and especially whiting while white. You are now free to run around screaming NIGGERS at the top of your lungs because that's no less racist than entertaining the notion of environmental determinism.
At least, according to a small but loudly outspoken niche on the internet.
Why do people not believe that people adapt to different environments a bit differently?
Would you go to hawaii with a heavy fur coat? Would you go to the arctic in a sling bikini?
This thread is worse than Hitler.
Because all positivism and "rationalist discourses" are essentially censored from academic works in geography, most geography students are trained to be scared and twitchy about the idea of geographic arguments that rely on the scientific method or cause and effect explanations.
>>429102
I don't know which parts have been called pseudo science, but it's definitely scientifically wrong to think that there aren't genetic differences between ethnic groups which have been isolated and evolves in different ways.
The difference isn't going to be great, but then there's very little difference between all the different breeds of dogs, yet see how much their appearance, temperament etc changes.
>>407627
No, Europe was just a late bloomer.
>>432203
But most race realists assert and imply otherwise. The entire narrative of race realism is just a poorly hidden racist narrative driven by pseudo-science.
Of course there are genetic differences.
>>424011
>Gandhi did anything useful
It was the Indian Nationalists that actually did the job.
Gandhi gets the credit from the Westerners because they don't want to spread the idea that violent resistance can actually solve things.
>>423976
>the entirety of Africa is hunter gatherer except Central Africa by some arbitrary and incorrect reasoning
I'm racist, but I'm not this racist.
>Australia though
>>432413
>most race realists assert and imply otherwise
no they don't.
>>409491
You should read the book. The reasons why Africa failed to convert on their vast resources are addressed in detail.
>>432203
And if humans were dogs, we would all be a single breed. There is that little difference, genetically.
>>435887
can i get a source of some sort to verify this? that would be pretty useful
>>434426
>the entirety of Africa is hunter gatherer except Central Africa
But other than Central Africa, only South Africa was mentioned.
>>407686
>Geography classes right now are unanimously critical theory
No wonder every geography teacher I've seen in university has been the most SJW hippie lefitst. I thought it was just environmental majors leaking into the subject.
>>434439
Yes, they do, and race realism is objectively defined as racist bullshit. Hell, I went into that shit optimistically, with so man people from /pol/ posting about how they read the bellcurve, all that there was when I looked into it was absolute academic criticism blasting them with sound, objective criticism as to how evidence was misused, misinterpreted, barely even there, and so on.
It's just garbage, it doesn't even matter if it's racist, the fact is it's not even right and the retarded writers and members of 'racialism' shoot themselves in the foot with their transparent confirmation bias. They ignore all counter-evidence.
Oh yeah, you're clearly pretty retarded too for defending it.
>>434439
Oh, and in saying 'yes they do', the implications of their 'findings' are enormous even if they don't present them as such. They try to present inherent, genetic differences in intelligence as just part of nature, when the irony is that would actually have enormous implications, more than they pretend, if it were actually true. But they can't prove it because they're hacks.
>>436369
It reminds me a lot of "evolutionary sociology" or whatever they call it.
Fascinating hypothesis with revolutionary implications, horribly mishandled and discredited by vile and petty fools who hijack it to "show" that all women are whores or that whites were selectively bred by jews to accept african immigrants who will slit their throats and so on. And the miserable few legitimate scientists who must stick to completely trivial findings, lest they get lumped together with the nutjobs.
>>407627
No. Rather, it is quite correct perception. Necessity is the mother of invention. And by necessity, resulting from unfavorable environmental conditions, scarcity of resources, which enabled the development of agriculture, and thus all subsequent advances.
The agricultural advantages in relation to hunting and gathering, were never obvious. To depend on the crops, was at the mercy of the success of the harvests, which not always occurred. To settle in a particular area, it was necessary to defend it.
Looking back, it seems it was a fantastic option. But run the risk of starving to death over the seasons or have your bunch massacred by invaders objectively not looked fantastic. The Neolithic Revolution just came out of its original cores - Mesopotamia, the Nile, Hindus, Mexico, the Andes, and the Yellow River - when it began to produce clear benefits.
The issue is not, and has never been, temperate zones against tropical zones, but scarcity and abundance of resources.
>>415692
That wasn't racism by the modern sense, though. People have been reporting physical differences in others since the beginning of recorded history, but the idea of classifying disparate peoples into racial labels that transcend culture and often geography didn't really exist until the early modern people.
>>423976
South African peoples weren't hunter-gatherers. They all had some form of agriculture.
This guy wrote a large book on the historical evolution of racism, the first part specifically discusses premodern racial concepts:
http://michael1988.com/?page_id=85
>>436063
Geography departments are in a really weird and muddled place right now in spite of their faculty members' repeated claims that they're disentangling themselves from what they see as oppressive past discourses such as environmental determinism and geopolitics
I thought GG&S was a fantastic book, although it fails to explain three things
1. Huge variation in dissemination of technology between different populations.
2. Failure to develop institutions to support prolonged economic growth despite abundance of knowledge and material resources
3. How do variations in the complex interplay between societies and their environments not create dissimilar selection pressures on populations?
So if I understand correctly, "environmental determinism" for Geography folks means using environment, plus a sort of social or genetic Darwinism, to argue that white people have been shaped by their environment into something that is better than non-whites can ever be?
If so, then Diamond is not at all making that point, but rather the opposite. He doesn't combine environment with Darwinism. Rather he rejects claims that humans have evolved apart in any way that is significant to the fates of their societies. He argues that the environment works on basic, universal human nature to produce differences.
For instance, he is at pains to point out instances where people found out about something and almost instantly recognized that it was useful, like New Guinea highlanders ditching taro for sweet potatoes, native North Americans learning how to ride horses, or Africans going through an agricultural boom because of cassava. Not to mention that western Europeans got the vast bulk of their crops and domestic animals from other parts of the world.
>>438802
>scarcity and abundance of resources.
As an Economist I can say Environmental Determinism is not true.
It only goes so far in explaining the rise and fall of civilizations.
The distribution of resources, in a certain society, is the backbone of civilization.
Having an abundance of resources and land doesn't means a Civilization will progress if there isn't a solid system of distribution of said resources.
Using your own example, if a tribe of hunter-gatherers don't have a system of food surplus distribution, that would make possible some of their tribe to work on fields long enough for results, they won't develop agriculture.
They could have all the meat they want but still not develop agriculture if they lack any system of distribution.
The more complex a distribution system gets, the more advance a nation is. That's completely dependent on culture and society structure.
>>439956
>1. Huge variation in dissemination of technology between different populations.
Not sure what you mean. Can you give some examples?
>2. Failure to develop institutions to support prolonged economic growth despite abundance of knowledge and material resources
This is pretty short-term stuff, and most societies have been successful like this for only a few hundred years at most. Diamond is talking about "the broadest pattern of history", on a timescale of over 10,000 years.
>3. How do variations in the complex interplay between societies and their environments not create dissimilar selection pressures on populations?
You're right that he doesn't address this point. Stephen Jay Gould talks about this kind of thing in The Mismeasure of Man. There has been selective pressure on different populations mostly concerning things like diseases that kill half the population, or being able to survive in a cold climate or under intense sunlight for millenia. It doesn't seem to have influenced behavioral traits like intelligence, aggression, social organization, etc.
>>439986
>I'm an economist
>I say economic structure is the only important thing
What a surprise.
>>440034
>Not sure what you mean. Can you give some examples?
In the broadest terms sub-saharan africa vs the rest regarding agriculture, metalworking, sailing...hell just about everything. The pattern continues today. Bringing tech to sub saharan societies usually is as productive as carrying water to a well. The societies lack structures to give incentive to people to adopt tech. Why?
>This is pretty short-term stuff, and most societies have been successful like this for only a few hundred years at most. Diamond is talking about "the broadest pattern of history", on a timescale of over 10,000 years.
A 100 years is plenty of time to adopt a tech. Europeans became industrialized within decades of eachother. We're talking about thousands of inventions disseminating within years and being adopted almost instantly. The Japanese went from feudal peasants with spears to industrial superpower within a few decades. See what China is doing now. In comparison Africa seems depressingly development resistant.
>There has been selective pressure on different populations mostly concerning things like diseases that kill half the population, or being able to survive in a cold climate or under intense sunlight for millenia. It doesn't seem to have influenced behavioral traits like intelligence, aggression, social organization, etc.
Even a small difference can compound significantly over dozens of generations.
>>407651
This is the result of indoctrination..
Necessity breeds innovation. Of the major continental groups, Europeans went through the wringer in terms of necessity and rigor, and once the climate warmed and technology came up to speed they were the better for it.
People deny determinism because they don't like the idea of things that can't be quickly changed, or "rectified" in their eyes. How unfair for 50,000 years of nature's cruelty to render a certain subgroup of people more capable of managing the modern world.
>>441050
nigga this whole thread has recognized that racist attitudes have existed throughout history and other ethnicities, but colonialists objectively championed racism.
>>441128
How would you expect them to react when they could effortlessly sail the world over and subjugate entire empires worldwide?
It was child's play and the natural conclusion is to just step back and think "well, I guess I am the shit."
