Can we have a thread about the Indian Caste System?
>>267218
The Outcastes
>>267212
My marxist History prof blamed whites for the skin color Caste system, which predated British India by about 400 years. I posit that it was heavily enforced by the ruling Maharajas which were light skinned turks.
>>267212
Is it true that higher caste members can have sex with lower caste with impunity and that they cannot be refused?
I know they can with the casteless.
>>267212
How bullshit is the typical meme caste system with 4+1 simple castes? I heard that it's actually much more complicated, with a shitload of castes that are not shared by all indians and that can even change rank in the hierarchy depending on the place.
Pretty based desu
okay so this is 4chan speaking but, when you look at the diagram, doesn't the pyramid remind you kind of like a giant loo? All the shit trickling down from one opening
>>267275
I dunno man. This looks pretty Time Cubey.
![3ga7s[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/APUEhYJ.png "3ga7s[1].png")
>>267276
>okay so this is 4chan speaking but, when you look at the diagram, doesn't the pyramid remind you kind of like a giant loo? All the shit trickling down from one opening
>>267275
What the fuck am I looking at here?
>>267289
come now, just take a look at the hole in the flag. That's obviously the start of the loo and the triangle is what happens to the poo
![image863[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/RVqwqFE.jpg "image863[1].jpg")
>>267297
I got you bro
>>267212
Was it possible to change tiers, or could caste only be inherited?
How the fuck can India claim to have a democracy when they still allow the caste system to exist?
>>267307
Holy shit that just confused me more
>>267247
>My marxist History prof blamed whites for the skin color Caste system, which predated British India by about 400 years.
Did you have the balls to tell them this?
>>267378
The whole point of Timecube is that it's incomprehensible, and thus unfalsifiable.
>>267378
Your looking at two completely different things. At least one is a troll, possibly both.
>>267375
Why don't you ask an Athenian helot?
>>267375
You don't need universal suffrage to have democracy. The US was a democracy in 1850.
>b-b-but representative democracy isn't democracy!
Yes it is, faggots.
>>267384
Yup but not the years, I was actually wrong ITP. He actually stuttered during the lecture/open discussion because he was segwaying into British colonialism and racism.
>>267423
This.
If direct democracy is the only type of democracy then Switzerland is the only democratic country in the world and there was no democratic country historically pre-1945.
>>267407
>athenian
>helot
eh?
>>267518
Don't be a faggot we all know he meant Athenian slaves
>>267247
What makes me mad about this is not so much the professor, but the fact that most of the retarded student body these days would just go along with it.
>>267525
sure, bud... "he"
>>267212
A brief introduction for those who want bibliography
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BhOqEuGxgo
DESIGNATED
>>267300
Thats a funny meme dude my kekes are in orbit haha
was this defacto eugenics?
>>267374
if the requisite combination of merit and hereditary are met sure.
>>267247
He's objectively not Marxist, assuming of course you're not making shit up.
>>267247
He's entirely correct to a point. The Zamondirs used the fact that the British did not understand Indian politics to use them to strengthen the Caste system.
Mughal India had a very weak caste system since the Zamindirs were Appointed. They used the power the Brits gave them to gain more power.
>>267212
who /disenfranchised/ cast here?
>>267212
Did the Indian caste system promote the prostitution of lower-caste women and men for upper-caste individuals, or were prostitutes supposed to be of the same caste?
>>267212
When did the rigid caste system actually start?
2000-3000 years ago(hinduism being developed?) ? 1000 years ago(mughal invasion)? 200-300 years ago(war of power between mughals, marathas and brits), 150 years ago(british rule)?
>>268792
From what I understand the untouchables or the outcasts were literally not suppose to be touched. They were considered sub human animals and sometimes it would even be more preferable to be reborn as an animal rather than an untouchable.
>>267247
He's sort of right actually. The British arrival in India which brought the printing press and a greater spread or Hindu texts actually promoted the spread of the Hindu caste society throughout India.
>>269166
>brahmins on top
fuck is this shit nigger
you worship fairy tales so you're top by default???
>>269141
Either mughal invasion or 200-300 is the right answer
Every part of the world effectively lived under a caste system at one time or another. Even in Europe there was very tight restrictions to social mobility.
The caste system is however the oldest known and oldest extant as well as the most all-encompassing of such systems; it dictates with whom just about any given activity may be performed, and its ideological underpinning is distinctly eugenic although the vehicle for understanding its utility has nothing to do with any understanding of genetics but is mired in spiritual beliefs of Vedic India.
>>269262
What?
>>267261
In terms of religion, any sort of intentional contact with Harijan is forbidden or requires ritualistic cleansing.
Harijan are disproportionately targeted with abuse because they have no social capital and it's easy to get away with crimes against them.
It's possible that within local contexts there are some such cultural variations that were probably devised to enable folks to get away with religious transgressions.
>>267212
Harijan are not a caste.
They are by definition without a caste (literal outcasts).
Because they are the product of transgresion against the prevailing social order, they are seen as outside of the system.
Ancient Indians were in some cases extremely xenophobic, but because of India's location central in Eurasia they couldn't stay isolated, so the caste system was seen as a necessity to keep a wall between themselves and the world outside their communities.
There were numerous Indian philosophers over millenia and some Emperors that spoke against the caste system or attempted to reform it, but the priest class consistently interfered because they had pride of place in the system; basically the rest of society exists exclusively so that they can spend their life meditating on their thoughts.
It's also one of the reasons why singular giant monuments are rare in India; Indian cultures believed monuments were impermanent and the only worthwhile pursuit in life was to be absorbed in high thinking.
It's why the task of political leadership too was traditionally relegated to the warrior caste (also because it was convenient for a general to establish himself as king), along with every other 'earthly' task, while the Brahmins sit in temples and live off of offerings. The entire rest of civilization just exists to facilitate their efforts to think (which unfortunately has also been a breeding ground of charlatanism).
>ITT: everyone posts their headcanon
>>269262
That's not entirely true; moving in between castes was often not impossible, but it's not a matter of personal choice.
Typically a child is going to be whatever profession their parents were in ancient India because they would apprentice under their parents or a family relation.
if you were a farmer and then became a potter it wasn't necessarily forbidden, but it was pretty much up to the rest of society to patronize your change of profession and accept it.
It might also be difficult to find a spouse outside your caste because families of different professions often jealously guarded their trade, they wouldn't want to share whatever value they could contribute with others.
>>269359
This is true
You could change your profession and hence your social status in ancient india.
Where that changed into the present system is a topic of much debate
they pretty much had to
unlike the peaceful indus valley civilization that preceded them, vedic india was a thousand small kingdoms and micro-empires constantly going to war with one another.
if you were a warrior and potentially expected to die for your king your natural reaction would be 'why?' given that in many cases the people were closely related and the victorious king rarely annexed the territory of the defeated army.
>>267378
Get ready for a wild ride.
http://www.timecube.com/
>>269418
The fuck is this?
>>269401
yeah, the fundamental problem with ancient religions like hindu and buddhism is that there's very little incentive for the individual to abide by the orders of political or spiritual authorities.
the point of life was enriching oneself and attempting to gain enlightenment; there wasn't much in the was of provisions requiring adherence to law.
I think in that sense caste system may have been necessary in order to ensure people had to faithfully perform whatever task was delegated to their family if they expected to earn any livelihood.
>>267212
Where do artisans fall on this spectrum, anyway?
>>269453
There are people in this world with some actual mental problems, anon, and they don't all end up in mental hospitals.
>>269359
Yep
What many historically ignorant people don't understand is that the Indian caste system wasn't as rigid as it is now. The reason for the current rigidity is because of the British who made the caste system to be a reflection of their own class system.
>>267497
Switzerland has been a direct democracy ever since its independence from the HRE, excluding the time it was ruled by Napoleon.
>>269509
Vaisyas probably. From my understanding Sudras are more manual-labourer types.
>>267218
>>267225
Forty keks
Holy fuck this thread
>>270936
I think it depends on the type of artisan. Not a Hindu myself so I can't confirm but I vaguely remember reading something to that effect.
Sudras were supposed to "serve" the top 3 classes but were still considered "respectable". The Pariahs got the really shit (lel) jobs.
I have hardly any prior information of this time In India. So at what point did a person become an 'outcast'?
>>270957
My Balinese friend told me that blacksmith, dancer, etc are sudra.
Dunno about in India tho.
>>267423
The US is and always has been a republic.
Western society also has a caste system, the only difference is that we do not recognize ours.
The intelligentsia, for example, is a caste as jealous of it's political and cultural power as the Brahmin. They have their own culture, values, are endogamous as fuck and their positions are usually hereditary.
See for example the typical caste intellectual, Noam Chomsky. His father was an intellectual, he is an intellectual who married another intellectual and sired an intellectual daughter.
And that's typical. So tell me, how is that not a caste?
>>271086
>So tell me, how is that not a caste?
It's not actively enforced.
>>271101
There are examples of intellectuals enforcing their power, such as when they purged non-leftists from universities or in the way they deny terms and definitions that don't come from academia (such as "Cultural Marxism")
>>267212
So at what point is there indoor plumbing?
Ican't tell you that much about castes, but I can tell you about purity.
The indians even today are obsessed with purity. This means, don't touch anything lower than you! Things can get complicated, for instance you can't let someone lower than you prepare your meal, the impurity, which is understood as material, will stick to you. Ghandis mother gave his son the advice, that if he accidentally touches some dalit (untouchable), he should bump into some muslim, which will gain all his impurity.
Inside the castes are up to thousand sub-castes. Today I read about a dalit of a sub-caste I forgot writing a love-letter to a girl, that was also a dalit. But of a way higher sub-caste. The result? He was thrown before a train. Police was probably watching. Marriage plays such a big role when it comes to purity.
Some more for marriage. Different scholars over the time have probably uttered different opinions about this. I don't know them all. The scholar-king Apararka wrote in 12th century, that one can marry a girl from a different caste, which is not lower than a shudra, when his wife died.
But the scholar Vasishtha holds the opinion, that one can fuck a shudra, but she has not the rights and duties of a real wife.
>>271206
what part of India did you even visit?
>>271242
None, I just read books. Less shit to step on.
>>271271
nice, so anecdotal evidence and hearsay.
that explains this thread well.
>>271347
The story about the love letter I got from "Dunkle Seiten Indiens: Zur Kastengewalt in der Gegenwart" by Walter Slaje, in: Gesellschaft, Wirtschaft, Politik. Vol. 61.3, 2012. Unfortunately the library doesn't let me borrow this, so keep on calling this fake and gay. I will not go back, take a screenshot from that page and translate it just for you.
The rest about purity and Ghandi is common knowledge in indology.
The marriage thing I got from my own translations of the Aparārkāparābhidhāparādityaviracitaṭīkāsametā Yājñavalkyasmṛtiḥ. Please don't make me search for the page and take a screenshot. It's in sanskrit and not worth my time typing all this.
I can't believe mentioned the origin of the caste system yet.
It's a legacy of the aryan invasion.
>>271396
>story about the love letter
a huge part of disputes in India are always given the caste discrimination spin, because it laws dealing with caste discrimination in india are far more stricter and elicit a social response more effectively.
>Aparārkāparābhidhāparādityaviracitaṭīkāsametā Yājñavalkyasmṛtiḥ
yes, only those books were not followed in most indian states.
>>271463
>aryan invasion
>not migration over a long period of time followed up by the drying up of IVC rivers
>>271562
>>not migration over a long period of time followed up by the drying up of IVC rivers
Call it aryan migration if it pleases you, it doesn't change what I said.
>>271590
yeah, it doesn't
>>271562
>yes, only those books were not followed in most indian states.
There is a debate about this and much seems to indicate that those books were descriptive, not prescriptive. Or better, they were first descriptive and then prescriptive. Sometimes a mix of both.
Yes, there were several of those books and often just had a local disperson. And I was just giving one example, maybe you want to give me an example of a text you translated to disprove me.
I have a question for the Indians here.
In Brazil, there was a soap opera based on India.
The plot was like this:
Main character was a high caste Indian who had an arranged marriage with the main heroine, that was also a high caste Indian. Anyway, the night before the marriage, the main heroine got pregnant with her dalit lover. Eventually, the main character finds out but forgives her and raises the kid, since he loves them.
How common is something like this in arranged marriages in India? Do people have relationships with those of other castes before marrying?
>>271644
Holy c.uck
>>271625
the Manusmriti is more rigorous than vaishista's description, and was used as a primary boogeyman by dalit groups, and yet not a single hindu kingdom in the subcontinent used it as a base for their legal system.
>>271644
She may have been killed in real life.
Not an indian btw.
>>271660
Yes, the dharmashastras deal way more with religious customs than state-enforced laws, written by scholars the king may or may not listen to. Apararka is a special case, because he was a king and one should guess that he would enforce his own laws. But still those customs probably were not state-enforced, it was a thing of the society. And I will insist on the point that the in the dharmashastras descripted customs seemed to be an obversation, but often the scholars also wrote if things should be done different.
Can't remember where I read that though, sorry. Maybe Patrick Olivelle or Khane.
>>271086
Nobody cares about Noam Chomsky except academics. He has very little power in society. The intelligentsia in America is not served by the rest of society like the Brahmin.
>>271836
>brahmin did nothing in society
nice
>>272583
What?
>>271836
Intellectuals in the Western world are the most powerful caste that ever existed.
>>267375
AFAIK it's been illegal for a long time (although its effects are recognized by the law, via affirmative action)
>>272724
It's true. Everyone that matters in society go through university where they are indoctrinated by Marxist intellectuals. Even if they don't become outright communists, they still accept communist morality as superior, and still cling to communist memes such as anti-racism, feminism, democracy etc
>>272751
I went to college in a Latin American country but dropped out because of communists.
>>272763
Liberalism, democracy, and Enlightenment values are communist now?
>>272812
>now
>>272812
they were always mate
>>272763
>It's true.
Is it? Lets have a quick look at these intellectuals awesome power.
Do they wield significant control over the military? No. Despite volumes upon volumes dripping with venom their books and words have had little to no effect. And why should they? Those who go into the military either do not read them or do not care for them. There are colleges where one can find powerful connections like this one http://killingthebuddha.com/mag/dogma/ditto-boys/ however you never hear about what goes on because they deliberately fly under the radar and few if any left wing types would ever be accepted into such groups.
Do you wield significant influence over economics today? No. Unions, one of their main tools have vastly decline over the years. The Cooperative movement is still at a "not quite dead but not really alive" type status. They currently mourn how the various regulations they supported have been dismantled at state/federal level, they have done nothing that can compete with things like Trans-Pacific Partnership, and they are absent in powerful groups like the World Bank/IMF which have both been heavily criticized by them.
>where they are indoctrinated by Marxist intellectuals
Funny thing about that. Books that actually bother to explore in depth what professors think such as the aptly named "How Professors Think" find a different story. One of the negative things about academic thought it showcases that nobody talks because normally it is only engaged on the most superficial level about is how various academics dismiss the literature of the other disciplines even if they had read it as hopelessly naıve or self-absorbed.
>>272966
Thats a odd statement to make with all those works written by marxist authors railing against liberalism and other enlightenment values such as "Liberalism: A Counter-History".
>>272966
But that makes no sense. The word "communism" has a different specific meaning.
Is this just a cynical way for people to make their political view sound more palatable? Opposing "communism" is socially acceptable, but opposing "liberal democracy" will have them branded insane by virtually everyone in western society. Sounds like some lies are needed in order to seduce people to their side.
>>272763
>Everyone that matters in society go through university where they are indoctrinated by Marxist intellectuals.
But that is the opposite of what is happening. The professors are the victims of the Marxist millennial students. They aren't allowed to express any view that the students don't like.
>>267275
as much as i love this, it doesn't do a very good job of explaining Evola's involution of the castes to a person with no prior knowledge of Evola or his beliefs.
