>Karl Marx was wrong because he wasn't realistic about human nature
>Karl Marx was wrong because the Soviet Union collapsed
>Marxist theories are useless and referencing them means you're a communist
>>244553
>>Karl Marx was wrong
because he was just spewing psycho babble b.s. to fool the masses so yet another group of people can get control of the gubbmit
/thread
>>244553
>Karl Marx was wrong because he was a "NEET"
>Communism is wrong because look, all the countries molded after and supported by the single model of Soviet Union failed
>an interpretation of an ideology that arose as a result of a single revolution that was hijacked by various groups and interests during powerstruggles on more than one occasion is the best possible represetantion of said ideology
>tireddisappointedfrog.jpg
>>244565
Actually he said the state under capitalism primarily functions to further the interests of the bourgeoisie.
How much Marx have you actually read?
anti-communism is the world's first meme
>>244622
>german
>>244627
>memes
>>244622
worlds first first world meme*
Third or the second weren't as much of memespouting faggots as first worlders desu
>>244634
The biggest memesters are communists. I guess it's to compensate for the complete inanity of their ideology.
so then is this place just /leftypol/ ?
neat
>>244646
>omg stop with the /pol/ boogeyman :(
>omg whats up with the /leftypol/ :(
literally stop
Marx, like Smith, was just making observations and predictions about the forces in the world around him. A group of revolutionaries misinterpreted him, and tried to employ a system that Marx himself believed had to come about naturally.
The experiment was a failure and led to a totalitarian state that was communist in name and pretty much nothing else.
>>244639
>I guess it's to compensate for the complete inanity of their ideology.
>>244659
then stop blaming /pol/ for your problems if you're just like them faggot
>>244646
This board is for people who read things other than infowars. So nothing like /pol/.
>>244646
>Stating that Marx was right about something automatically makes one a leftist
>implying Marx is only important in political debate and not humanities in general
Shaking my head to be honest family.
>>244676
Infowars is probably more accurate than revleft, and infowars is shit.
>>244666
Thus proving my point!
>>244646
I'm libertarian and I agree with this thread. Academic Marx is completely different than left-right politics.
Marx's work focused on class relations and political economy.
Communism was a theory about the distant future of social evolution.
Inability to think critically about Marx would make this a /pol/ discussion :^)
only cultists give weight to XIX-century thinkers.
>Karl Marx was wrong because he was a very bad man who personally killed 6 bazillion innocents souls
>Karl Marx was wrong because he even said so himself and renounced Marxism lol
>Karl Marx was wrong because he wanted to force us all to pay to eat mud
>>244553
>Karl Marx was because humans are selfish and greedy and we don't live in a perfect world
I want to punch someone in the fucking face when I hear this high school level analysis of Marx.
>>244553
>>Marxist theories are useless and referencing them means you're a communist
No, they're worthless because they're epistemological nonsense.
They do correlate with leftist beliefs which is further nonsense.
>>244746
>Inability to think critically would make this a typical human discussion
ftfy
>Brainwashed 13 year olds ITT
>>244907
But it's true of pretty much any proposed miracle government/economy system.
>>245071
p. much this tbch family
>>244553
Karl Marx was literally a homeless neckbeard who mooched off his friend and got so pissed off at the world for not giving him money and a home and that people wouldn't all be equal according to his standards that he decided to write an entire book on why we should steal from the rich and why we should all enable the lazy pieces of shit in this world and help them because Humans should all be equal except for those 4 guys at the top who keep calling their citizens comrades so they won't feel like the true wage slaves they were.
I've had enough of liberal arts majors and high school faggots go around wearing the hammer and sickle on their arm and getting pictures of marx tatooed on their dicks because of their delusional belief that everyone should suffer equally because they refuse to earn their own money. Capitalism>Communism. Fuck you and your feelings. Pay up or die. Its all about the money and survival of the fittest. Not welfare and dependency on the government.
Why is it every single Marxist country has been authoritarian?
>Karl marx published more than the communist manifesto
>Read all of his work before you denounce all of his work
>All these people unable to differentiate between politics of Marxism and academics of Marxism
Why are you people even here. Just go back to /pol/.
>>245175
There's no such thing as a Marxist country senpai
It's a system of analysis. It's like asking why positivist country's are always so racist.
>>245233
I really disagree. Marx wrote ideological doctrines.
Why do we still pay attention to Marx? Labor theory of value is bullshit. Surplus value is bullshit. Class consciousness is bullshit. Historical materialism is bullshit.
Seriously even religious fanaticism is better than Marxism. You can't disprove God, but even a retard can disprove Marxism.
>>245244
Such as?
>>245214
>everyone who disagrees with me browses /pol/
Oh wow, people weren't lying when they called this a SJW board
>>245262
The Communist Manifesto
>>245214
Trying to separate the two is like trying to separate Christian theology from Christian dogma.
>Karl Marx was wrong because he wasn't realistic about human nature
What exactly is wrong with this argument?
>>245283
Human nature was redefined to suit capitalism by capitalists theorists
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Transformation_(book)
>>245214
>posting about Marxism to begin with
Go back to reddit
>>245273
Not sure how that's an answer. I've read it. imo it kind of sucks. - which is maybe why it's the only slip of Communist literature rabid anti-Communists will ever want you to read.
It says some things. Makes some claims that will probably sound weird if not crazy to the uninitiated since it's not long enough to expand on the complex ideas behind the assumptions. Maybe you are referring to the "10 planks"? That's literally about the only prescriptive thing Marx did, as far as I know. And even then it's half hearted; a "sketch". And he later wrote that he wouldn't have done the manifesto the same way if he had to do it again in later years.
>>244700
nobody reads revleft
>>245071
nah, just people with the propensity to actually pick up a fucking book
>>244646
Yes, basically every thread is complaining about how /pol/ is ruining the board and discussing asexual, transgender feminist history
>>245283
Its not necessairly a bad argument. You can argue that Marx got alot of things wrong on fundamental human behavior IF you get deep into his philosophy.
What is a terrible, laughable argument is to say he got human nature wrong on the basis that Communism requires people to share and people are greedy by nature. That signifies that you really know nothing about Marx besides what is said about him in popular debate.
>>245272
Not a matter of disagreeing. Its a matter of miscommunication. You cant have an intelligent discussion if you're not even discussing the same fucking thing. Refer back to the post you're replying to: there is a HUGE difference between Marx the communist and Marx the philosopher, sociologist, economist, political scientist, lawyer, and so on.
>>245255
How come?
>>245282
Pretty different actually
>>246165
No it isn't. Marx's analysis is informed completely by his communist agenda, he already had the conclusions in mind, he just sought to construct the analysis that would be support them.
>>244665
Marx didn't think revolution was bad, or that the process of communism couldn't be speeded up by it. As a matter of fact revolution now is the mission statement of the communist manifesto.
It's just that the Bolsheviks cared less about the philosophical nuances of communism and more about industrializing Russia by any means necessary so they could compete with the rest of the world.
>>244553
to all gommies in this thread, what should I read besides Marx to learn more about communnism?
>>246309
This qt.
>>244553
His theories are all about economics and countries that adopted his economic theories all failed.
What more could you want?
>>246329
The Soviet Union and their satellites failed, but saying they were glowing examples of Marxism with their rigid state capitalism is as about as accurate as saying China is Marxism in action with their mixed economy.
Of course the whole argument that "USSR=Pure Marxism" is capitalist strawmanning, so of course any surviving state mustn't have anything to do with communism so I'm sure you'll agree that China isn't communist.
>>246368
State capitalism is a contradiction in terms. Marx defined capitalism by the prominence of the credit system.
Whenever someone uses "human nature" as an argument I die a little inside.
>>246396
State capitalism is a well defined term where for-profit activity and private industry is simply overtaken by the state, rather than being democratically controlled by the workers, or controlled by owners like in normal capitalism.
This is entirely consistent with the Marxist description of capitalism as privately owned means of production being used to extract surplus value from wage labour. Only the traditional private entity of individuals is replaced with the state.
>>246434
There was no such thing as profit in the USSR.
>>246439
Yes there was, only as a state capitalist society the only organization seeing the profit was the state.
They didn't export stuff for free, friend.
>>246456
The state was non-profit. There was no C-M-C mode of transaction.
>>246464
It was for profit though.
What do you think their foreign trade was for?
>>246464
M-C-M I mean
>>246496
So they could afford to import things like wheat.
Shit, as all utopian crap.
>>246517
Liberalism would be considered utopian in feudal times.
According to communists, is there anything that is not a tool of the bourgeoisie?
>>246504
Yes, they wanted foreign commodities.
They used their Money, for Commodities, to put on the market at home. What do you think they sold those Commodities for, and what acronym would that make?
>/his/
>expect /lit/ + /pol/ babby
>got /leftypol/
>>246549
You got what you wanted.
Its the topics of /pol/, with the opinions of /lit/.
>>246517
>free market economics
>not utopian
Don't worry, the market will magically fix everything!
>>245292
>muh noble savagery
>>246545
Not until we take it from them.
>hurr it's not real marxism because they corrupted it
>every single people who try to adapt marxism to reality end up corrupting it
>it's not a failure of marxism
>>246549
Discussing Marx politically is different than discussing him in sociology and law and...Ah fuck it, you're too dumb to understand it either way.
Its impossible to talk about this BECAUSE WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE SAME FUCKING THING.
>Marx was a communist, communism failed, the end
>mfw this is what half of you unironically believe
>>246607
No, some of the historical socialist states and leaders have broad communist support.
>>244553
>Marxist theories are useless and referencing them means you're a communist
Hate this the most. I'm a leftist/Marxist, but not a gommie or soshulist.
>>246607
What do you think Marxism means? Give me your own definition.
>>246656
the study and practice of theories of karl marx
marx was a faggoty ass hobo TI3H f@m
>Marx MUST BE RIGHT otherwise all the time I spent studying Marxist bullshit in academia would have gone to waste
The history of the Western intelligentsia in the last 100 years.
>>245085
But it's not a miracle, there is no miracle fix, I'm a fucking socialist and I know that.
historical materialism is absolute crap.
prove me wrong
protip: you cant
>>246419
That's because no one ever managed to come up with a good argument against it, so Marxist intellectuals just ignore it.
>>244907
i genuinely want to hear a refute of this. There's a guy in the year above who got mad at me when I said something similar and then he went on a long rant about history without answering the question:
how is a political ideology a potential solution if it places unrealistic expectations on every member of society?
And to further this, is it really a coincidence tat every society that has attempted/pretended to follow marxist ideals has fallen into a dictatorship?
>>246456
Economy was subjected to politics, if they had a choice between having a efficient company making profits and a struggling company employing a lot of nomenklatura and apparatchiks, they would choose the later, because it fit their political objectives better.
"State capitalism" is a meme, it never existed.
>>246737
>And to further this, is it really a coincidence tat every society that has attempted/pretended to follow marxist ideals has fallen into a dictatorship?
it is not.
Humans constantly revert to hierarchical structures. The idea of the abolition of class is ideological babble.
Class struggle is a very interesting concept nonetheless
>>244907
That's true, though, Marx was influenced by Rousseau into thinking that society "corrupted" men, according to him, before class stratification there was no conflict or religion alienating the masses.
Archeology has proved him wrong, there was plenty of war and faith before civilization, so there is no reason to assume that even if "true communism" ever comes, it will be as great as Marxists portray it to be. More like you will just get permanent war between worker's council until one manages to unify all political power.
>lol marx was rite 'cause ppl say he's wrong
neoshit - /his/ 2015
>>246546
They rationed most of those commodities.
>>244646
the boogeyman meme goes both ways
we all should stop labeling opinions and instead just discuss the substance of them on their own merits
>>246549
>people who actually read shit discussing social sciences instead of reactionary teens reading breitbart and getting offended by tumblr
>STOP OPPRESSING ME!
>>246758
>More like you will just get permanent war between worker's council until one manages to unify all political power.
Not even then. Conflict would inevitbly arise and cause the political power to collapse.
>>244553
Who's this Marx fella? What's his job?
>>246752
Class struggle is a meme. Caste struggle is real, the conflict between warrior castes and priestly castes is what defines history.
If you look closely at any example of "class struggle", you will see that the working class is divided between those led by the "warrior caste", like nobles, businessmen or military officers, and those led by the "priestly classes", such as preachers or intellectuals.
>>245781
/pol/ and /r9k/ pls go
>>244646
/Leftypol/ is /lit/.
/his/ is where /lit/, /pol/, /tg/, /k/ and people who play paint simulators from /v/ and /vg/ fight.
>>246781
he's a neet that everybody decided to listen to for some reason
>>246762
To be fair, this topic is really a bunch of pseudo-intellectuals getting blown the fuck out when they try to push their retarded viewpoints in a space where people will call out their bullshit
>s-stop talking about human nature!
>it's a bad argument!
>why?.... cause... reasons... shut up! USSR wasn't even real marxism!
>>246785
That might be the worse iteration on class struggle I've ever seen.
>>246792
but I'm not from any of those boards...
[spoiler]/tv/ here[/spoiler]
[spoiler];)[/spoiler]
>>246785
What about merchants?
>>246813
It's true, though.
Mazdak, Wat Tyler, Thomas Muntzer were priests, Vladimir Lenin and Mao Zedong intellectuals.
>>246817
I usually count them with the "warrior caste". Since their political power is derived from real world possessions, instead of control over abstract ideals, as is the case with the priestly caste.
But I admit that's an oversimplification of sorts.
>>246842
>I usually count them with the "warrior caste".
Medieval nobles would be pretty offended by that.
>>246842
>instead of control over abstract ideals
Isn't that what modern currency is?
>>246846
I'm sorry they can't appreciate the ruthlessness of a robber baron or commodity trader as pertaining to their own world.
>>246872
Feudalism, that is a state where most people *aren't* slaves (a European serf had a lot more rights), would be considered utopian in ancient times.
>Karl Marx was right about the dialectic nature of reality111!!!
>the soviet union wasn't communist! but if it had won the cold war we would still consider it communist!! it's a fact that any successful socialist country is clearly what our system represents
>dialectical materialism means that ultimately everything is reducible to the material means and historicity of institutions, bodies, or ideas! except we revised that and later argued that the superstructure reciprocally reinforces the base, so our argument about the ultimate nature of things is circular lol
>>244807
>Karl Marx wasn't a political agitator whatsoever he isn't responsible for any social trouble historically, unless he saved people, then ofcourse he is totally responsible for that yes sirree
>Marx (dialectical blessings be upon him) renounced the hollowheaded political pundits that would trounce around citing key saint-simonian jingo phrases like scripture, I wonder if there's any modern equivalents, hmmm
>>246901
>the soviet union wasn't communist! but if it had won the cold war we would still consider it communist!! it's a fact that any successful socialist country is clearly what our system represents
Actually western commies largely denounced the USSR from day one. It's not like your average young college red would be a Bolshevik 100 years ago, just like they aren't a tankie now.
>>246919
>"I've seen the future, and it works".
>>246670
Okay, not exactly. Marxism is a tool, thats it. Its an academic tool for social, political, economic, philosophical, and historical analysis that focuses primarily on class relations.
Class relations are the cornerstone of Marxism. There is the bourgaisie (the rich) and the proletariat (the poor), and the interactions between the two are at the heart of whatever is being discussed, say sociology or law or economics or whatever. It doesn't depend on your political leaning, you don't have to be politically Marxist to practice academic Marxism, which is what >>246608 points out with not talking about the same thing. You can be a conservative and still give a Marxist analysis.
For example Marx said one of the primary functions of the state is to expand/preserve the power of the ruling class. Think about libertarians for a second: they decry the close relationship between government and business elites. How is that not what Marx is talking about? If the elites/cronies/whatever are seen as the "bourgeoisie" then the Marxist approach of examining class relations even applies to libertarianism.
Here's also a video is of an economist giving a Marxist analysis of the 2008 financial crisis. Now obviously Marx died before 2008, but this shows his framework can still be used to analyze contemporary events.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOP2V_np2c0
>So what about political Marxism or communism?
Well, its mostly debunked and it doesn't get much serious support from academic circles for obvious reasons.
Communism was a part of Marx's staged view of history - that is he believed human history operates in stages. In one stage we were hunter-gatherers, in the next stage we became agriculturalists, then feudalism, capitalism, and so on: Communism, he theorized, is at the very end of these stages. This theory is not taken very seriously anymore and for good reason, but it DOES NOT invalidate the overall approach to socioeconomic analysis that is Marxism.
>>246942
To be fair all the criticisms of Lenin and the boys by their contemporaries proved to be true, so they may as well have predicted the future.
>>246919
>western commies denounced the USSR!
>Tankie literally evolved as a phrase denoting members of the communist party of great britain who supported destroying the hungarian revolution
B-B-B-BUT KH-KH-KHRUSCHEV W-WAS A R-R-REVISIONIST!
>>246899
No, they wouldn't.
>using XIX century economics to explain 2015
Why?
>>246977
It sure would. The idea of the servants being entitled to days off, feasts provided by their masters, protection from harm and so on, would seem ridiculously utopian.
>>246968
Yes, and the perjorative was used by other English speaking communists to make fun of that minority.
The fact that that's its etymology is just further proof that western communists didn't invariably support the USSR during its lifetime, as a matter of fact a majority didn't.
>>246901
>Marx (dialectical blessings be upon him)
>>247008
>yes! they didn't support the USSR, they only supported non-oppressive communist regimes, like red china and cambodia :^)
>>246948
>the Marxist approach of examining class relations even applies to libertarianism
/pol/ blown the fuck out
>>247017
Actually it was the British government that supported Cambodia over Vietnam.
Either way that's not what I said, I just countered the claim that communists always support surviving communist states as glowing examples of Marxism by pointing out that actually disowning the USSR isn't a recent thing. Communists have been doing it since forever.
>>247018
Yeah, too bad libertarians are as bad as marxists. This is why both /pol/ and reddit should go.
>>244553
Karl Marx was 100% right on his criticism of capitalism, where he went wrong was on his suggested alternative.
>>247035
except you didn't counter the claim, you just made an unsubstantiated conjecture
but then again that's the nature of marxist reasoning so who am I to judge :^)
>>247018
Except that his understanding of Marxist class analysis is incredibly stupid.
>bourgaisie (the rich)
>proletariat (the poor)
Come on, I'm not even a Marxist but I know it goes further than that.
>>246948
>For example Marx said one of the primary functions of the state is to expand/preserve the power of the ruling class. Think about libertarians for a second: they decry the close relationship between government and business elites. How is that not what Marx is talking about? If the elites/cronies/whatever are seen as the "bourgeoisie" then the Marxist approach of examining class relations even applies to libertarianism.
So I'm gonna assume you've never studied politics outside of your armchair at home and on 4chan otherwise you never would have made such a redundant statement.
Every political theorist in the world will tell you that libertarianism is not inherently right-wing just as liberalism is not inherently left-wing
Capitalism, commonly understood as the right wing at the moment, is economic liberalism
Furthermore, a cultural hegemony is postulated by marx and perfectly describes what most /pol/tards are talking about when they mention the jews. They're just too stupid to realise this
I like that you're trying. But you're speaking from authority when you clearly know very little
>>247054
I just assumed you'd know who Rosa Luxembourg was and how she disagreed with the USSR from day one.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/luxemburg/1918/russian-revolution/index.htm
There, enjoy your testimony from a contemporary source. Best summed up in this bit
>it would be a crazy idea to think that every last thing done or left undone in an experiment with the dictatorship of the proletariat under such abnormal conditions represented the very pinnacle of perfection. On the contrary, elementary conceptions of socialist politics and an insight into their historically necessary prerequisites force us to understand that under such fatal conditions even the most gigantic idealism and the most storm-tested revolutionary energy are incapable of realizing democracy and socialism but only distorted attempts at either.
There, now do you believe that all communists ever don't just unquestioningly support the current surviving socialist states?
Historical materialism can be a useful way to analyze history but as a political philosophy/ideology Marxism fails.
>>247090
>Every political theorist in the world will tell you that libertarianism is not inherently right-wing just as liberalism is not inherently left-wing
>Capitalism, commonly understood as the right wing at the moment, is economic liberalism
How does that refute anything I said?
And I realize its redundant, I wrote it to put Marx into left-right/contemporary terms to make it easier to understand his significance and why he can't clearly be put under such labels.
>>247084
It was to simplify.
>>244620
literally who gives a shit you goober
he was a loser and anyone who calls himself a marxist is a loser.
>>246948
but the class relations as posited by marx are fundamentally wrong, because they fall into a generalised dualistic view (thanks Hegel) that failed to express the evolution of capitalism.
>>247110
its based on absolutely terrible espitemological foundations though.
you can just as well analyze history from the standpoint of familial values or religious concepts
Its a totalizing and generalizing view of history that doesnt add much to actual knowledge
>>247093
LUXEMBURG WAS FUCKING DEAD BEFORE THE USSR WAS EVEN PROPERLY FORMED
DO
YOU
EVEN
HISTORY
>>247147
He did notice the middle class, though they were still emerging and not very widespread yet. He called them "petty bourgeoisie".
Either way I think the importance of class relations still holds.
>>247176
She died before the Russian civil war ended, but the USSR always traced its origin to the October revolution and the doctrine of Lenin. With is exactly what she's on about in the above link.
Not to mention she basically predicted the future of the USSR anyway.
>>247165
I agree that on its own it isn't very useful but when combined with other analytical tools it can make sense when analyzing certain periods and events. It certainly has issues answering cultural questions (which led to the rise of cultural history to begin with).
>>247093
Another example of a communist author who was highly critical of the USSR would be Anton Pannekoek.
>>246948
that video isnt explaining crap.
it justs takes some basic concepts like capital accumulation and says capital accumulation is evil.
It offers no real effective knowledge on the crisis.
>>247192
>people attack marxists, saying they claim to predict the future when they're just backwards rationalizing
>they deny the claim that they're being prophetic
>then people like you claim trotsky or luxemburg predicted the future
every.
time.
>implying I'll follow a link to marxists.org
nice try cointelpro
>>247231
To be fair, lots of people guessed the future of the USSR. Stirner guessed that communism would become a totalitarian nightmare. Bakunin guessed it would either break down into parliamentary dickwaving of no substance or a grotesque, insane bureaucracy.
>>247231
>then people like you claim trotsky or luxemburg predicted the future
But she did in this instance, not with voodoo magic. She just saw the writing on the wall which was my point to begin with.
>nice try cointelpro
Nice, very nice.
>>247246
neither of those were communists though
>>247246
Empedocles guessed the earth was round, he put forth a primitive theory of evolution, proclaimed all existing things were made of key simple elements and conjectured entropy. He was born in 490 BC. what a genius right? no. stop anachronizing.
>>247261
That's true, though Bakunin's theories formed the basis of anarcho-communism. My point is that guessing the fate of the USSR wasn't a particularly uncommon thing.
>>247268
What the fuck are you even talking about?
I get why people like the idea of Communism. In fact, I love the idea of Communism.
But I'm not nearly big enough of a sucker to think it has a chance in hell of working, and frankly I fail to understand how naive you have to be to think it would work? You can't point to a single thing that would ever support Communism in effect. Communism relies on humans being angels and humans being honest, and never in all of history has anyone no matter their upbringing or their lack of one been both of those. You either get angelic liars or honest assholes at best, but mostly you get lying dicks.
>>246901
I'm curious what the original image is. I doubt it was originally meant to make fun of communists, because the whole "don't call me a communist" thing is absurd; Marxist-Leninists don't typically reject that title.
>>247319
Fun fact: nobody itt is arguing in favor of communism.
>>246151
How come there are still Marxists in the present? It puzzles me as well.
>>247361
I know, I'm just ranting.
>>247349
here's the original. the commie variation is attacking tumblr communism (arguably fifty times larger than leftypol) and the "don't call me X that triggers me" nonsense is part of their weird dual push for mental health alarmism and social revolution
>>247389
lefty version of /pol/
>>247389
It's an eight chan board.
>>247397
Thats a thing?
>>247406
>>247417
Did not know that.
>>247418
yeah.
its pretty bad
the antithesis of /pol/s thesis and vice-versa.
I'm afraid to imagine the synthesis
>>246792
I'm from /fa/
>>247417
Oh wow I didn't know that it was actually place.
>>247478
>he still thinks in left vs right dichotomy
My sweet summer child, one day you'll learn the truth.
>>244553
>Karl Marx was wrong because the Soviet Union collapsed
Well, he did advocate state socialism
>>247361
I'd argue for communism, just not the 19th century, or even the 20th century ones.
>>247561
Don't you mean state capitalism?
>>247588
I'm sure it will work in the 21st century r-right?
>>246419
Same
>mfw people bring up human nature outside of genetics in biology
>>247603
With the necessary core changes changes and implemented in the right way (with the right mindset most important of all) yeah it could.
>>246726
There's no human nature.
>>247591
>shit goes wrong a dozen times
>wasn't real socialism anyway
>let's try again!
>>247658
>there's no human nature
>this is why I have no bodily limitations, definable characteristics or essential properties and I float around shapeshifting
go home foucault
chomsky shredded you
>>247668
Except that's not what people mean when they say human nature, they mean human behavior which is dictated by a mix of genetics and the environment.
what books do I need to read to make an interesting contribution to these threads?
>>247744
Das kapital would probably be a good start.
Get a reading guide though.
>>244553
He was wrong though.
>>247754
No you absolute fucking faggot, I'm saying that while genetics is a huge component of human behavior the environment is ultimately the deciding factor in it, put a Chinese baby in America and he'll most likely (depends how exposed he is to the culture) grow up to talk and behave like any other American from around the general area of where he's at.
If there was such a thing as an intrinsic human nature we'd still be living in caves, or hell we wouldn't even have gotten down from the trees even.
A prime example are Norsemen, only 1000 years ago they used to be literal white niggers, the most violent and savage people of Europe, now they're the exact opposite, how did this change happen? Genes can't be it since they're virtually the same genetically now as back then; the change took place because their environment changed, and they changed with it.
>>247652
I BET THE BOUGEOIS DID THIS
Can you fuck off back to reddit already you fucking regressive leftists
>>247668
Whatever you say "I'm Right Because My Feelings Say So" Chomsky
t. Foucault
>>247828
>there's no human nature
>describes how humans are predominantly discursive creatures and will adopt social mores
those sure sound like characteristics of a nature to me m8
>>247389
Where all the tween Orwell fans converge. Absolute shitpit.
/marx/ on the other hand is run by a lovely Hoxhaist and has tons of nice scans and pictures.
>>247744
Marx/Engels
Economic and Political Manuscripts of 1844
Value Price Profit.
The Communist Manifesto
The German Ideology
Socialism Utopian and Scientific.
Origins of the Family Private Property and the State
Anti-Duhring
The Civil War in France
On Authority
August Bebel
Society of the Future
Kautsky
The Class Struggle
V I Lenin
What is to be Done?
State and Revolution
Imperialism
>>247361
I am
So are most anarchists who matter these days, more specifically the edgy Great Leap/Pol Pot variety.
>>246607
Actually a lot of Communism turned out amazingly for the majority of the population. You should maybe listen to something other than butthurt emigres with an ax to grind.
>>247840
Nah, it was me that fucked up, disregard the "and"
>>247894
not him, but how the fuck does anarchism even work?
isn't a self defeating ideology because humans tend to create hierarchical structures?
>>247903
>Actually a lot of Communism turned out amazingly for the majority of the population
What the fuck am I reading
You need to seek help.
>>247417
plenty of communists have been racist
>>247903
>Actually a lot of Communism turned out amazingly for the majority of the population. You should maybe listen to something other than butthurt emigres with an ax to grind.
too good
>>247841
When I head "regressive leftist" I think a leftist that has a sacred cow that he's willing to censor free speech over, such as with Islam and Muslims, what do you mean by it?
>>247903
LMAO
WHAT THE FUCK
Go back to reddit with your retarded false logic and facts
Stalin killed 20 million farmers, and most of russia starved under Lenin
Mao same shit, killed millions.
I'm going to bring up Feral Children just to witness the butthurt and backpedalling in the "human nature" camp.
>>245175
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm
Every Marxist country has been a tool in the class struggle.
There is literally nothing wrong with being authoritarian.
>>247744
Also for more modern communist view read "The best that money can't buy"
>>247929
Pretty much, it's typical leftists to hold contradictory beliefs.
>>247849
Mmmh, it seems that we both agree and the problem here lies in semantics, we both think of different things when we read/write "human nature" but we agree on the principles of human behavior.
>>245175
Hierarchy and power seems to be the common thread of all human organization
Think Marx's criticism of capitalism is valid, but communism is a terrible idea and his perception of history is bollocks.
>>248002
>I don't know what capitalism is
Okay good for you.
>>248012
this is like half the reason politics are so fucked nowadays
every goddam thing is so fucking obfuscated by centuries of rhetoric and tradition which half the time have completely compromised their original ideology
it's just people endlessly telling each other "you don't know what you're talking about" or "that doesn't apply to my specific interpretation of this political ideology"
>>245175
Maybe because the ones that weren't were destroyed by outside powers and forgotten by the vast majority.
Sadly you need authoritarianism to defend your country from outside (and inside, which are often one and the same) threats.
>>247744
You can watch some of this guy's videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/brendanmcooney
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCx_MUwI15M&list=PL3F695D99C91FC6F7&index=7
Despite the messy, incomplete organization and basement productions I remember them being pretty informative summations of some of the ideas at play
>>247912
>>247917
>>247934
Trash.
The Black Book of Communism is a total laughingstock, not even the authors could get past the basic mathematical and statistical errors.
The kurkuls and Landlords functioned as shitty microtyrants who's one job was to keep the rest of the population on the brink of starvation in order to be incentivizing innovative job creators and get their peasants to produce efficiently. Famine was also perennial in non-industrialized countries. The gommies, after realizing they couldn't do it with the pitiful number of workers in agrarian lands, decided to broaden their base by giving the peasants license (and back up) to fuck their landlord up and rob all his shit. This felt both glorious and amazing.
Don't pretend these people are like you. They lived in absolute squalor, couldn't even read, etc. Hardly any of their children lived past five. They didn't have your delicate North American sensibilities about stuff like murder, they just got while the going was good and gave the Landlords the 1000 years worth of rage they had in store. I doubt most people now would pass up the chance to legally murder their landlord (even if owning their own home wasn't in the bargain), do you think a Chinese peasant who had known nothing but being screwed and starve would have any second thoughts?
You think those babushka with their Stalin signs and those Chinese peasants who dress their kids up in tacky polyester Mao hats for the anniversary of Lu ding Bridge or whatever just like fell out of the sky or they're all just miraculously brainwashed.
This is what happens when you believe in bullshit like human nature. You start thinking everyone is just like you and that their historical narrative or priorities are the same, when they are not, by a long shot.
>>248074
Communist here
Those peasants that got to fuck up their landlord were later robbed of their food and left to starve because they, while true that they hated their land Lords, they also were not big fans of communism, and besides Stalin needed money for the 5 year plan so he hit two birds with one stone and sold the peasant's food abroad to gather the necessary funds and at the same time getting rid of a potential threat right at home.
Tell me, do you think that was a right or wrong thing to do?
>>248074
>They didn't have your delicate North American sensibilities about stuff like murder
East European here and you're the epitome of a blowhard.
>>247189
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/comm.htm
So did Marx
>>248124
Stalin the guy who rushed aid to the poor Ukies as soon as he heard about it?
Yawn, if it isn't reacs, it's leftcoms and their red tsar bullshit.
>>248152
When you grow up in second world slavlands you get a taste of real world instead of bullshit:
No, you cant become president/astronaut when you grow up, maybe even a haircutter is out of your capabilities. Deal with it.
World is terribly, so so terribly unjust. There is no equality or justice on this Earth and if god really made it, he didnt have it in his plan so dont spend too much time crying over a spilled milk.
Time is the only currency you have.
Since 'comfort breeds weakness' and since every slavland had to deal with numerous bullshit through out history, men that survived all of it either toughened up or died trying.
Before you are 15 years old, you already had your first taste of real life, your first blowjob in the park, your first fight, you got mugged and roughed up for the first time and you kinda liked the effect bottle have on you and moral support it gives.
Meanwhile, others were watching their 'little girl' cartoons and played pokemon and got sheltered by their mom. They are now still virgins in their 20's and their opinions are shitting up their countries, they support immigration and welfare and think their rights and freedoms are completely practical in real world and dont know a single thing about self sacrifice and how much it is in dire need to your country. They also believe in peace and that peace can work in real life, while there are millions of muslims and what not out there.
>>245272
Everyone who disagrees with me is a SJW. Your chicken tendies are almost ready.
>>245907
What is Das Kapital?
>>248234
Is that copypasta?
>>246608
I think you are confusing hegel's dialectical analysis with Marx, who just used Hegel's dialectical analysis to construct his theories.
>>246948
>I think you are confusing hegel's dialectical analysis with Marx, who just used Hegel's dialectical analysis to construct his theories.
>>246948
>Communism, he theorized, is at the very end of these stages.
Look up the distinction between crude and full communism
>>248074
>The Black Book of Communism is a total laughingstock, not even the authors could get past the basic mathematical and statistical errors.
No-one qouted that book.
>The kurkuls and Landlords functioned as shitty microtyrants who's one job was to keep the rest of the population on the brink of starvation in order to be incentivizing innovative job creators and get their peasants to produce efficiently.
That is fucking retarded. Czarist Russia was a modern state with a large industry. It didn't get it from starving the population. Starving the populatiom is the aboslutly dumbest idea for achiveing economic growth, everyone has always understood this. Did you get this from a book, college course or your own ass?
>Don't pretend these people are like you. They lived in absolute squalor, couldn't even read, etc. Hardly any of their children lived past five.
This never been the norm anywhere is history. Not in Africa, not Europe nor Asia. If the starvation was that bad the women would not have been able to become pregnant in the first place. If women get less than 12% body fat they risk permanent sterillity.
>You think those babushka with their Stalin signs and those Chinese peasants who dress their kids up in tacky polyester Mao hats for the anniversary of Lu ding Bridge or whatever just like fell out of the sky or they're all just miraculously brainwashed.
You think those grannies with their Reagan posters and those Chileans who dress their kids up in tacky polyester Pinochet uniforms for the anniversary of The Great Helicopter Ride or whatever just like fell out of the sky or they're all just miraculously brainwashed.
>This is what happens when you believe in bullshit like human nature. You start thinking everyone is just like you and that their historical narrative or priorities are the same, when they are not, by a long shot.
What's the nature of human social malleability?
'muh soviet union'
'marx theory is flawed so commism is flawed'
'muh state authority is commism'
>>244553
The first one is true tho
>>247744
None, this is a shitposting thread. Any thread that starts with a pepe picture is a shitposting thread.
>>247139
Shitpost somewhere else, please.
>>247147
>but the class relations as posited by marx are fundamentally wrong, because they fall into a generalised dualistic view (thanks Hegel) that failed to express the evolution of capitalism.
kind of sounds like Judaism/Islam/Christianity imo
>>248234
>Before you are 15 years old, you already had your first taste of real life, your first blowjob in the park, your first fight, you got mugged and roughed up for the first time and you kinda liked the effect bottle have on you and moral support it gives.
>Meanwhile, others were watching their 'little girl' cartoons and played pokemon and got sheltered by their mom. They are now still virgins in their 20's and their opinions are shitting up their countries, they support immigration and welfare and think their rights and freedoms are completely practical in real world and dont know a single thing about self sacrifice and how much it is in dire need to your country. They also believe in peace and that peace can work in real life, while there are millions of muslims and what not out there.
Kek
Holy strawman argument Batman!
>>247018
>implying libertarian is always synonymous with anarcho-capitalist
>implying libertarians can't be more communist than communists
>>244676
I DON'T WANT THEM PUTTING CHEMICALS IN THE WATER THAT TURN THE FREAKIN FROGS GAY
>>247165
Could you please expand on what you mean by "terrible epistemological foundations", I'm genuinely curious.
>>247886
Fine list, Comrade!
>this is what commies actually believe
https://www.radicalphilosophy.com/commentary/a-tale-of-two-worlds-2
>>247319
>8th grade understanding of communism completely divorced from dialectic
>>247319
You don't understand what Marx was arguing in this respect at all. It is a central pillar of his thinking that most of what we ascribe to "human nature" is instead a product of humans adapting themselves to the requirements of the social structure they use to produce goods and services to meet their needs, since production to meet our needs is an inescapable necessity for human existence.
I could point out, as evidence of this, that many things we regard today as part of "human nature" were totally difference under pre-capitalist modes of production, since a different "human nature" was required to survive in that system.
Marx was brilliant as a sociologist but never managed to quite realize the contradiction between an analysis of history that shows that most modes of production arose contingently in the course of history as a result of people trying to reproduce themselves *as they were* and advocating radical revolutionary change that would require trying to impose a mode of production on reality schematically.
>>245203
>read a Simple Wiki page
>read all his work
There's gotta be some kind of happy middle ground.
>>247909
http://infoshop.org/AnAnarchistFAQ its a really fucking broad term
>>258439
Sadly not much of one. He was TERRIBLE at summarizing his own work, and his thinking is very hard to summarize at all without very quickly becoming reductionist.
Marx's thought might be the one case where the "No True Scotsman" fallacy actually applies since most Marxian thinkers think everyone else's interpretation is totally wrong.
>tfw when people think the future Marx predicted has already occured
>tfw when Marx was actually predicting what will happen 200 years from now when robots have taken over the working role and no one has jobs and everyone is payed equally to do nothing and live in a glorious communist utopia on Mars.
>tfw I have no face
>>259027
Zeitgeist shill please, that'll never happen.
>>244553
Karl Marx was wrong because he said violent revolution before 1900 was guaranteed to happen. He never counted on the emergence of Social Democracy.
Marx was wrong because labor theory is completely debunked and frankly retarded and was the cornerstone of his understanding of economics.
>>260218
>Not knowing that Okisho's theorem assumes its conclusion and does not refute the labour theory of value.
Ayy lmao
>>246309
proudhon is basically the marx of anarchism
>>244553
Pretty much.
Either that or someone who buys into Marx's cultural notions and wrongly believes that doesn't make you buy into his economic assumptions.
>>262570
>people who own the means of production: productive
>people who achieve the actual production: useless
>calling other people brainwashed
>>262570
How is somebody who inherited a factory more productive than someone who labors there?
A factory can operate without an owner but it can't operate without some kind of labor.
>>258950
Probably, he was paid for the amount of pages he wrote, so Marx had to write more on the same subject to have more money.
>mfw marxist theories are useless
>>262570
>productive
There is no way you didn't use that word on purpose
>>262673
>gdp dips after a violent revolution and government transition
Wow what a surprise
>>262697
no comrade, you misunderstand. it's sarcasm - the graph shows clear rapid growth despite such violence
>>244674
>Disliking each other equally means we shitpost equally
>>244553
Karl Marx was wrong because he based his entire theory on, even by his time period, outdated theories about how the market functions.
>>244553
He was correct about the exploitation of workers and the separation of man from his labor.
Aside from that he was a useless turd whose solutions are a cure far worse than the disease.
>>246792
r9k rep
>>262594
>>262636
>people who achieve actual production
people are worth what they're paid, if they don't like the pay they get, they can create their own business.
Meanwhile in your world
>tumblrites and other leftist waste arrive at your door
>give us your money
>why
>because we dont have money and the government tells us stealing from others is okay now
>why
>because we wasted our time studying useless shit and learnt absolutely nothing like gender studies since the beginning of our lives, we also spent all our money on hair colouring and its all your fault that we can't make a living for ourselves
>ok
>this will benefit us all in the end
>>263211
>start your own business
Like it's that easy. Bigger companies can easily buy your business or sue you (Tucker Torpedo case). Also, you need a starting capital, which is hardly achievable in some countries like postsoviet region.
And get on with those Ad hominems of yours, we both know that western SJW likes marxism because of bright flags and cool pictures of Che.
>>244553
he was wrong, cuz he was deluded about history
also, he was edgy, which never helps
>>244608
This
get your shit together /his/
![iu[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/qPC32bj.jpg "iu[1].jpg")
