Is the West responsible for the Islamic revival in the 70s? Wasn't Islam on a path to secularism before the Islamic revival? I was talking to a Moroccan friend of mine and he claimed that the West is the reason for Islamism today. He's a non-believer and admits Islam is violent but said moderates in any religion ignore their scripture and Islam was in a better place 50-60 years ago.
This isn't about the recent attacks but rather the Wests role in the rise of Islamism in the last 100 years. Keep it /his/.
>>227813
>Is the West responsible for the Islamic revival in the 70s?
It played a part but not the whole part.
There were right wing movements springing up everywhere in the secular Arab countries of the 60s and 70s. The US just gave them the means to accomplish their goals.
It was also the Saudis who directly funded the construction of wahabbist mosques across the middle east to spread their poisonous ideology.
>>227834
>Saudi Arabia
why is this shit still exists?
>This isn't about the recent attacks but rather the Wests role in the rise of Islamism in the last 100 years. Keep it /his/.
Attacks in Paris yesterday and today are historical
Don't you think the biggest terrorist attack in France and in Europe since 2004 Madrid train bombings will have an impact?
France and the whole EU is at the crossroads
Just an hour ago I was walking past the French embassy. Crowds, candles and flowers
>>227838
Oil
>>227838
>why is this shit still exists?
Now here you really can blame the UK and USA.
Poor Lawrence.
>>227813
>He's a non-believer and admits Islam is violent but said moderates in any religion ignore their scripture and Islam was in a better place 50-60 years ago.
Eh, it's the opposite.
Go look at what ISIS does and then open the quran and you'll find all the condemnation of it. Particularly the fact that the main thing they do is kill fellow Muslims.
You can argue for all time whether they can kill non muslims, but they sure as hell cannot kill muslims but thats all they do.
Moving on, yeah, the fucked up situation of the middle east is due to about a century of careless foreign intervention. Even Syria is the fault of outside nations such as trying to topple the official government by arming the rebels.
>>227838
Oil.
Invest in renewables, kill terrorist scum
>>227813
The Cold War in general. Many of these nations were looking for "third options" between the liberal democracies and centralized soviets. When nationalist fascim (the first choice for many, such as Palestinian nationalists, Turkey and Iran) didn't really pan out, it turned to ethno-religious dictatorships. Due to poor nation-building by the French and British, the ethnic factor eventually was supplanted by religious fundamentalism. A good piece of evidence for this is that countries that remained ethnically nationalist (primarily Turkey) had a far more difficult time succumbing to religious fundamentalism.
>>227841
I don't remember feeling this much uncertainty like today
No. I've said it before here, but the primary reason for Isalmism is rapid modernization.
For whatever reason, rapidly modernization causes societies to look towards violent, all encompassing ideologies that frequently embody some mythic, idealized path.
Japan, Italy, Germany, China, Korea, and Russia all went through this. To a certain extent, we're also seeing it now in India.
>>227866
This. If Nationalism has any use, it would be good for the Arabs. Then again by now even if they had a fully national war based on national lines and for political reasons it would still be painted as an islamic issue.
If the Iran-Iraq war happened to day it would be painted as Sunni vs Shia.
Secularism fucked up by itself when it associated itself too closely with socialism and the Soviet Union.
The main basis of support for Political Islam comes from small and medium merchants, they are the ones who fund the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, just like the Bazaar was extremely influential in the Islamic Revolution of Iran.
Blaming the United States is the typical coping mechanism of the left to deal with their own failures.
>>227866
>Many of these nations were looking for "third options" between the liberal democracies and centralized soviets
Why have they never considered liberal democracy?
It was always nationalism, socialism or fundamentalism
>>227875
>Italy
>Germany
I know about the regressive movements in the other countries you listed, but what about those two? What movements, what time periods do you mean?
Yes, but not in the way most people think it is
The muslim world wasn't alone in the mid-20th-century thinking it would be smooth sailing toward western-style modernity and national cohesion, and it wasn't the only place to run into problems. The 'problem' I think is that Islam was always there as an alternative when other things didn't seem to be working; it remained the default alternative for people.
There wasn't an equivalent to that in Africa or Latin America or Asia. They might swing radically to the left or right in the face of a crisis, but nobody there seriously considered rewinding history a few centuries to some golden age (since they never considered themselves to have had a golden age, or at least not one it was possible to go back to).
>>227899
Fascism and National Socialism.
In before /pol/
>>227914
>but nobody there seriously considered rewinding history a few centuries to some golden age
You probably never heard of indigenous movements in places like Peru, Bolivia and Mexico.
>>227875
Rapid modernisation changes everything about your society and its structure.
As humans are nostalgic little faggots who only remember the good old days and not all the shit that came with it, they think everything was better before their new tractors, phones, tv cars internet and everything else.
This is why all those states you mentioned essentially amounted to wanting to be modern on the outside with an old fashioned traditional society on the inside, promoted through whatever fashion of extreme ideology relevant to the areas as well.
>>227875
>india
tell me whats happening?
>>227890
That requires a WHOLE lot of trust to work.
How many developing countries have ever managed a peaceful transition of power without reprisals? Precious few until recently.
>>227813
>Islam was in a better place 50-60 years ago.
He's not wrong about that. Afghanistan in the 70's was well on its way to become an industrialised, secular state akin to any Western one.
I'm not sure exactly what he means by the West being responsible for the rise of fundamentalist Islam though. Feel free to give more details.
>>227838
Saudi Arabia has access to tons of oil. I find it really hard to believe that any Western nation would put up with any of their shit without it as leverage.
>>227922
I'd assume those were extremely marginal movements.
Such ideas exist in almost every society (hell, there are none-too-few in the US that think the country attained perfection in 1776), but they seem *MUCH* more widespread and deeply rooted in the muslim world.
Islam as a religion seems pretty obsessed with the rule of the Prophetﷺ as the ideal human society, so that gets pretty drilled into everyone's head in 'sunday school'.
>>227936
Not who you're responding to, but Gandhi (the original) had a HUGE hard-on for traditional Indian village life as pretty much ideal, and thought an independent India should look backwards and not try to follow the West down the path of industrialization.
>>227813
Vahabiism is pretty old, though.
And Muslim Brotherhood, the grandady of pretty much every extreme islamist group, got it's greatest push in the 1920's.
But yeah, both of those were pretty limited in their reach.
>>227948
That stuff makes me sad.
We'll have one for Syria in 40 years.
The west isnt responsible for it being extreme Islam. The west is responsible for the swing to extremes, it's Islam because its an Islamic land, if it was atheist it would be some fascism.
>>227976
yes, and no one listened to him
>>227948
When you see pictures like this you have to question how representative the westernized elite were of the country as a whole though.
You could say that things got much worse in the 70s because of proxy conflicts in the Cold War but this shit has been going on forever. I suppose if you're going to point to one thing as a catalyst it would be the French campaign in Egypt and Syria which happened fucking over 200 years old and it's no coincidence that France has been targeted using stuff like that as an excuse
>>227983
>40 years
more like 4
>>227936
Modi is implementatng industrial and economic reforms across the country, forging stronger ties with the UK, and (trying to) cut down on graft (isn't trying very hard). At the same time lots of ethnic violence spikes and shit like that
>>227813
No-one is solely responsible but it has certainly had a prominent hand.
>>227976
Well that wouldn't have worked. India is doing alright now. It was late to the party because while not Communist, it adopted Communist economic policies when it became independent. This stifled the economy.
>>227992
200 years is reasonable. History is all cause and effect.
>>227998
On the whole I'd say India has done a really remarkable job of dealing with its ethnic divides. Doesn't help when Islamism is spilling over from elsewhere.
>>228012
>dat one constable who caught him armed with nothing but a bamboo stick.
brave marathi manoos.
>>228005
How many other peoples/countries would cite past events as a clause for war? Just imagine German-speaking Italians fighting to annex the German speaking part of Italy, it's beyond unreasonable.
>>228031
>How many other peoples/countries would cite past events as a clause for war?
How many countries don't have irredentist claims?
>>228031
Most, if possible. It might not even be the cause, just a convenient way of gaining popular support.
>>228031
I'm not saying they should cite that as the cause, but the modern problems in the middle east have much of their origins in the Napoleonic era.
>>228037
That are part of the mainstream political landscape?
Probably only Russia has claims it would act on.
>>227936
Public defecation and rape mostly.
Nothing occurs in a vacuum. The region was volatile after the Ottomans collapsed and varying events transpired.
To that end, don't act like Europe wasn't perpetually attacked and invaded by Muslims for 1,000 years prior. These two regions have been clashing for a while and it's childish to blame a serious calamity off the events of the last 40.
If you fail, as a population, to control your country that is primarily your fault.
>>228054
>>227987
That's not the elite you're seeing in that picture. That was how the population as a whole dressed and lived at that time.
>>227919
>Fascism and National Socialism.
Neither of those were opposed to "rapid modernization", quite the contrary.
>>227968
>Islam as a religion seems pretty obsessed with the rule of the Prophetﷺ as the ideal human society
No it isn't.
It's wahhabism, a creed founded in Arabia in the 1800s and which Saudi Arabia has been funding throughout into the world which is obsessed with some glorious return to better times.
>>228031
>How many other peoples/countries would cite past events as a clause for war?
China currently with it's sea territories
>b-but muh maps from centuries ago
Israel is the obvious one.
You also have to consider the contexts in which these things happen.
>>228062
>and it's childish to blame a serious calamity off the events of the last 40.
Not really because this isn't a Muslim/Christian Issue its an issue of middle eastern stability.
The region is going through its own 30 years war.
>>228062
>wasn't perpetually attacked and invaded by Muslims for 1,000 years prior.
And alliances were made and diplomatic missions also. The (not-so) subtle nuances of history escapes you.
>>228086
When the prophet of god was an earthly ruler, and you keep detailed records (the Hadith) of what he did and said in power, it's difficult not to take his rule as instructive.
I'd say this is one of the most important things that differentiates Islam from other religions: it's too specific on how life should be lived and countries should be governed. Very different from, say, Christianity, where you can't take much of practical application from Jesus's ministry.
Even with something like Mormonism, which has so many parallels to Islam in this respect, they quickly decided they needed more revelations (from people other than the founder) to over-rule what that founder said/did. But Islam is nothing but insistent that Mohamed was the last prophet.
Yes, they did. Arab Nationalism was on the rise after the fall of the Ottoman Empire. A united Arab nation would prevent Western powers from extracting resources from the Middle East.
To take control of the Middle East, the West would have to divide the Arabs. To do this, they began supporting Wahhabism. This was perfect, as we can see Iraq and Syria have fallen victim to this plan.
>>228084
They weren't opposed to technological modernization. But were strongly opposed to other forms of modernity like liberal democracy, socialism, consumerism, women's rights, etc. Fascisms main goal is save the nation from the perceived degeneracy of modernity.
>>228127
I don't think the West thought that hard about it. Wahhabism was already in place in Saudi Arabia: the West would have dealt with whoever was in power so long as they could get that cheap oil.
>>228142
that doesn't explain afghanistan
>>228155
No, that's explained by the Siege of Mecca, the Saudi response to it and the madrassahs in Pakistan
>>228155
?
The West was out to bloody the Soviets. They would have supported anyone who'd fight them.
>>228121
>When the prophet of god was an earthly ruler, and you keep detailed records (the Hadith) of what he did and said in power, it's difficult not to take his rule as instructive.
No. They weren't written down for 200-400 years after he died. The first 200 years Islam didn't use anything like that, just the Quran. It's Sunnis who use them, Shia use a different set, and some none like the original Muslims (The irony of supposed fundamentalism is that it goes away from the fundamentals and more into obscure made up laws)
Sunni Islam isn't actually different in that way from Judaism or Christianity, it's just that Judaism goes even further and is literally impossible to follow and Christians don't give a shit anymore.
>>228161
pre invasion afghanistan was ruled by a left of center political alignment, that was focused on womens rights and general education and social upliftment.
re: the West 'supporting' Islamism, the West (at least since the end of colonialism) wants one thing for the rest of the world, which is to be as much like the West as possible. Freedom, democracy, and McDonalds for everyone.
When the Cold War ended everyone hoped Russia would become a Western democracy. When the Arab Spring happened the same hopes were raised again. Right now everyone seems to think Burma will turn into a liberal democracy overnight if only those nasty generals get out of the way.
The West is naive and self-righteous, but I really don't think it's conniving or malicious.
Islamism is a response to the failure of secular governance. Both the right wing and left wing failed. Westerners are just to decadent and logical to understand violent passion.
>>228142
True, but most Arab states favored the Soviet Union. US support of israel also kept many Arab states away. And almost every Baathist was vehemently against Saudi Arabia, a key US ally.
>>228190
>much like the west as possible
that doesn't explain their choice of allies during the cold war
question /his/
I notice a lot of people on facebook and other social networking sites yelling "DON'T BLAME ISLAM"
Does history support the idea that "one should not blame the majority for what a minority faction did."
Like, were Gauls saying "the Romans aren't bad people, just a few of them are."
>>227841
True, and I'll love to have a place on 4chan to discuss it with serious people, but for obvious reasons it goes against the rules to talk about this kind of history on /his/
>>227890
because Arabs are culturally not like the rest of the world.
apart from the big population centers the Arab population tends to be composed of very secluded tribes that don't appreciate participation nor meddling in other affairs, that find it difficult to gain affection or allegiance to a system structured beyond their immediate living environment, and that are on a personal level ill-fit for individual achievement through competition, prioritizing the use of personal relations to gain advantage in society.
http://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-wars
this article does not refer to the religious element itself, but the culture that breeds the problems faced by the western militaries when dealing with arab forces is very well laid out. The avoidance of conflict always leads to inevitable conflict when Arabs interact with foreigners.
>>228177
Sure that stuff was canonized long after the fact (same as with the Jewish and Christian scriptures), but it is there as a template for life and governance. That's quite different from e.g. Christianity or Buddhism notably, where the religion is more of an ethical code than a blueprint for living.
Of course some Jews, Hindu, etc. do try to live their religion literally, taking thousand-year-old ideal societies as prescriptive, and with predictably negative results. Fortunately there aren't enough of them to cause the problems fundamentalist Islam has.
>>228263
>jews and hindus
where?
>>228228
The West thought (as the Communists did themselves) that Communism was the natural alternative to liberalism. It wouldn't have occured to many that there was a third (or forth or fifth...) way that might include retrograde religious fundamentalism.
>>228075
after word war 2, both of these were nearing a reality, with the EU and Baathist regimes cropping up.
>>228234
>Does history support the idea that "one should not blame the majority for what a minority faction did."
Pretty vague question if I ever heard one but fringe radical groups pulling acts of mass dickery without the approval or consent of the larger group happens all the time. Using Romans as an example isn't really applicable as it was more of a state than a fringe group.
If anything the whole "DON'T BLAME ISLAM" thing on social networks after terrorist attacks is rooted in the fear that riots and mob violence in history would be repeated. Unlike 4chan, normal people generally don't want reliatory mass violence to erupt in the streets.
>>227987
This but it's not about westernized elite, but westernized urban world. All these photos show kabul then and kabul now, I'd like to see "shithole in the mountains then, shithole in the mountains now".
>>228271
Jewish fundamentalists who try to live every tenant of the religion possible (to the point of absurdism in many cases). Hindus who still believe strongly in the cast system, etc.
What are good books on the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan? I know jackshit about it.
>>228234
>Does history support the idea that "one should not blame the majority for what a minority faction did."
Yes, it's ridiculous. ISIS have about 250,000 people and probably a few million supporters. Out of 1.6 Billion Muslims. It's not even 0.1% of Muslims.
Yet for the majority of the uneducated masses if a Muslim organization does something all muslims are at fault.
I imagine they collectively sigh and brace themselves everything this sort of thing happens.
>>228253
Lolwut. It's not 1800 anymore. Arabs are people who live in cities with normal lives, the amount still living in tents in the desert is insanely tiny.
>>228234
i don't think it does.
one think to note about the muslim issue in Europe is that they don't exhibit an uniform block in the societies they incorporate themselves.
in the UK for example, Pakistani immigrants have had a presence for quite a long time before this exodus began but they aren't known for behaving in a particularly extremist way, rather, they have become just another color of the hoodlums, delinquents and general poor people. It's in the neighborhoods dominated by other kinds of muslims that bizarre sights such as Sharia law signs and protests have taken form.
The immigration movement has definitely changed in nature and the people moving in into Europe at a large scale nowadays deffinitely intend to settle there and culturally change these countries to suit them, something that i'm fully in agreement is a destructive process that should be stopped.
>>228322
just read
>>228031
All those with a modern reason for war (or simply conflict) as well.
Spain tried to pull the Gibraltar card not so long ago in an attempt to distract the public opinion from the economic crisis and the widespread corruption. It didn't work but soon the catalan issue (which involves 300 years old grudges, though claimed by the other side and not the spanish one) took that role.
>>228307
>cast system
nice surface level observation
>>228354
>Spain tried to pull the Gibraltar card not so long ago in an attempt to distract the public opinion from the economic crisis and the widespread corruption
That didnt happen, dont confuse summer snakes with smokescreem
>>228352
>bizarre sights such as Sharia law signs
Local retard white converts. That ginger twat was also featured in a documentary with his convert jihadi mates
What I find interesting is that the only people who participate in protests and all are usually either 2nd gen who failed to assimilate or their grandads who've been in the coutnry for decades and also failed to assimilate. I don't think it's common for fresh immigrants to want to rock the boat like that.
>>228409
perhaps, but what certainty will there be that these new immigrants and their children won't become part of these culturally disenfranchised groups down the line? if their numbers keep rising, it's certainly going to become a powder keg and send these countries into unsustainable social unrest.
who will have the stones to send them back home if there is ever peace again?
>>228409
>I don't think it's common for fresh immigrants to want to rock the boat like that.
This is also true in my experience.
Immigrants are usually grateful not to be in whatever shithole they came from. Any discrimination or alienation they feel is nothing compared to the fucked up life they had before.
Second gens never experienced how shitty their parents' lives actually were before. So they feel resentment that they're treated as outsiders and face discrimination, and turn to ideologies that tell them they're really far superior to the degenerate natives of the land they live in.
>>228409
>Local retard white converts. That ginger twat was also featured in a documentary with his convert jihadi mates
Didn't that guy turn out to be a government mole?
>>228409
Unlike what /pol/ believes most 2nd gen and definitely 3rd gen do assimilate and take on much local culture and become lip service muslims at best.
Those that don't are essentially the edgy teens of the muslim communities, going the opposite way and becoming hardline. They're actually the same as /pol/ users except from a different background. Ironic.
>>228440
This is more of a political issue than a historical one but if we wanted to close the gates to keep them out it's far too late for that. All the nutjobs are already here with their weirdo circlejerks and as the Sharia Zone boys have shown, they don't need their own blood coming in to spread their ideology.
The only means to fix it now is to make an active effort to stamp the extremist flame out in its crib. But a quick scan of a political forum or 4chan will show that the issue has become so inflamed and politicised that you can't really take any action without pissing off a huge group and causing tensions anyway.
tl;dr; closing the gates at this point won't fix anything.
Also this: >>228485. Stamping out the edgy teen crowd should be the priority but it's hardly easy with tensions bubbling up every time there's an incident.
>>228476
Was he? I'd be impressed if he was.
Personally I always thought Anjem Choudrey (or however you spell it) was a mole. The guy's background and in-your-face radicalism is just a bit too suspicious for me/
cba to write an entire essay because this day has tired me the fuck out (thanks muslim scum)
>Fall of Ottoman
>Western intervention in the region
Ottoman empire carved up much like the Scramble for Africa was
>ethnic tensions
>religious tensions
>didn't matter because these countries adopted a western attitude
>incipit American foreign policy
>Mossadegh in the fifties because America, Britain and France wanted oil
>these failed states gave rise to religious fundamentalism for reasons you should look up yourself (see: Khomeini)
>Western intervention stays prevalent in the region for many decades, partly due to the Cold War as well
>Taliban and Al Qaeda creation of CIA to combat the Russians
>People not very happy with Israel who has kept expanding its territory since its birth in 1947 iirc.
>9/11
>US attacks Iraq
>more failed states
>more hotbeds for terrorism and religious fanaticism
etc
>>228198
you're not even that far off. http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/01/slavoj-i-ek-charlie-hebdo-massacre-are-worst-really-full-passionate-intensity
>>227936
Narendra Modi leads a Hindu-nationalist party that is attempting rapid modernization along a Hindu-centric platform.
>>228515
>People not very happy with Israel who has kept expanding its territory since its birth in 1947 iirc.
Israel has only shrunk, but everyone knows it's not territory they want, but the holy cities.
The Sinai means jackshit and no one in Palestine wants to be in Palestine, jew or muslim.
>>228507
Basically. Add to that all the hostility from local european deus vult coldsteels validating their victim complex even further isn't helping the matter at all.
The horse has long bolted and locking the stable isn't going to do jack. And the refugee crisis and the Paris attacks is just more fuel into the fire.
>>228507
Yeah basically. Around their their women are whorish and their men are just into games rap and football. Some of them are bound to turn extreme and call them degenerate and want to kill people for it.
They recently killed Jihadi John, the ISIS guy who beheaded people on video. Turns out he was bullied as a kid for having bad breath so he became a recluse posting on the internet all day and engaging in conspiracies and wanting to kill degenerates and westerners.
It's literally so /pol/ its funny.
>>228543
>Add to that all the hostility from local european deus vult coldsteels validating their victim complex
oh look, more victim blaming
>what do you mean people are upset when a bunch of zealous assholes who want to be subsidized by your country while they spread their hateful, intolerant ideology show up at your door
>>228567
Nice projection. I was simply stating that fact that getting Jihad Jamal to calm his ass down is only going to get harder when people are simmering with (justified?) rage at him and his kind over terror attacks and it just feeds his victim complex even further.
>>227813
>Is the West responsible for the Islamic revival in the 70s?
It started before that. And yes, partly.
Funnily enough, the Arabs were quite happy to adapt to European ideologies and fashions in the late 19th century, and America was originally applauded as a savior and restorer of dignity to the Arab people after the oppression they suffered through the French and British (because of the US's anti-colonial policy), but time and time again the Arabs got shafted and played for fools. So after they'd unsuccessfully tried everything, Islamism made a resurgence. Although some are willing to go back to the Mongols as the original decline of Islam, so really, people will blame who they will to reach their goals.
Sykes-Picot was a mistake. Lebanon was a mistake. Saudi Arabia is a mistake. The Iraq wars were the needle in the fucking coffin. We can say whatever we want, but on a national scale, we have no honest rhetoric with which to defend ourselves. Our countries could suffer hundreds of thousands, millions of deaths, and we'd be nowhere near even. Especially France, England and the US when looking at the Middle East. This is why it's so shit. Nobody asked for it, but our history has put a bulls-eye on our head, and it looks like we are finally getting a small taste of what we've been exporting the past 100 years.
Bit of an incoherent rant, but whatever.
>>228584
It's the same thing at the of the day. Same causes, same response, same goals, just a different ideology.
If American was Muslim r9k would be Muslim central.
>>228558
Not to get off topic but I never understood why stormies on /pol/ (not all of /pol/ has their beliefs obviously) even go here. Now I realize that the type of people on 4chan are perfect to proselytize, socially ostracized males who are looking for an ideology to jump on. These are people that never were passionate about anything, and the neo-reactionary type shit gives them a purpose and meaning. Similar to how all the SJWs do what they do to feel part of something bigger.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_bulge
The future doesn't look bright at all. We've been under a moderate world system for too long. The rise of reactionaries online in western countries and the increasing liberalization of society is going to make the West explode in the future. Sectarianism is going to be rampant and we'll have gommies and nazis fighting in the streets again.
>>228611
Nah it will be alright. SJW and stormies are actually just a tiny amount of people who no one gives a fuck about.
>>228611
I honestly don't think anything fundamentally new is happening these days. People and ideas have always clashed and this Left v Right stuff isn't that different from the past.
the only thing that's really "new" the is ability to propagate crackpot ideas over the internet and the ability for their adherents to meet up online and circlejerk.
>>228629
to be honest, I have burned out completely and just browse for the memes.
>>228592
what a gross oversimplification you're making.
These muslims aren't broody school shooters locked in their bedrooms either, they belong in communities among themselves and it's not helping that these communities have been very lenient to the germination of radical ideas and the creation of sects, closed off groups and shady connections inside them, poor parenting, unwilling to take part in the local life due to their own mistrust of the culture they have transplanted themselves into, however you call it, it's not like Mexicans crossing the border here.
>>228611
we'll suffer an ecological and economic disaster before demagogy sweeps a significant block of the populace. When people are in need, they'll find their gods and idols tucked away. Fundamentalism and crisis have been factors to eachother rather than a single process.
>>228646
I think this is the boat in which the majority of us find ourselves.
>>228595
Western colonization of the Middle East was so brief you could have blinked and missed it. In most places it didn't last much longer than the interregnum between WW1 and 2.
If colonialism and some amount of foreign meddling thereafter doomed nations to a spiral of failure then no place has any hope.
>>228668
its a nice kind of feeling to be frank.
I just go through life's paces, get high and wait to be reborn in a better time, hopefully once we finally can colonize space
>>228645
>the immigration in Europe isn't going to cause serious destabilization you're delusional
Destablize? Yes, undoubtably
Serious destabilizaton? No.
Come monday people will still go to work, still go to school and still go about their weekly routine.
Will people be scared? Yes. Will people hate each other a bit more? Maybe. Will more people vote FN next election? Probably. Will more Muslims flock to terror groups? Maybe.
But the day to day won't change. Unless people are out in the street killing each other by the dozens or threatening to overthrow government then we can talk about "serious destabilisation".
>>228671
Well despite what stormies say the ripples of imperialism and colonialism are still felt today. The destruction from divide and conquer is still there.
>>228690
not in South East Asia or Latin America.
>>228653
And their paranoia of the greater community is half the reason these communities exist in the first place. And with tensions rising over the attacks, you think they're going to be *more* open? *More* open to dialog?
Even "immigration control" isn't going to do much at this rate. Many of the these communities, while once immigrant communities, are old enough to largely contain native-borns. You could block and deport every single non-citizen in the country and they'll still be there legally.
>>228688
>Will people be scared? Yes. Will people hate each other a bit more? Maybe. Will more people vote FN next election? Probably. Will more Muslims flock to terror groups? Maybe.
So how is this not a snowball effect? Serious destabilization can happen as tension keeps rising and rising. It's a gradual process. It's pretty rational to believe in widespread destabilization or the collapse of the world capitalist economy in our lifetimes.
>>228688
This to be honest. I don't think western people can be bothered to get as angry as people did in the past.
Maybe it's a by product of our comfortable lives. In the past poor meant dirt poor, often being hungry and having little to no possesions, getting an angry and burning and rioting was great. Nowadays, not many will do it, when it happens its always black kids for some reason.
>>228690
These are countries with THOUSANDS of years of history. Yet they were irreparably wrecked because a few limeys and frogs showed up, had tea, drew some lines on a map, and promptly fucked off back home?
How many people in the Middle East would even have seen a European during the time they were 'colonized' (in most cases indirectly). It's a pretty tepid colonization that's devoid of actual colonists.
>>228701
>Latin America
Are you retarded? US foreign policy fucked Latin America for years to come. It wasn't in the Americas interest to have a strong Latin America back then. Even before the Cold War the US was fucking Latin America and treating it as its playground. The careless interventionism left Latin America with sectarianism and revolution after revolution. Also communists. Not to mention the 'culture' of rampant corruption in Latin America was nurtured by the US.
>>228730
It'll only snowball if we do nothing. Which, admittedly, seems to be the what current leaders are content to do.
Something definitely needs to be done but we are not at the crux of a calamity yet. Despite our current troubles, life is still relative comfortable for the average first worlder. We are far removed from the chaos of the early 30s. Nobody sane wants a "happening" type of event to kick off and you'll definitely see more concrete resistence if our cozy way of life is in real threat of snapping.
>>228757
>hurrr economic policies, uneven development, favoring one ethnicity over the other, and funding radical ideologies does nothing
Your post is fucking retarded, your point on those countries having thousands of years of history' doesn't make any sense, as if that means anything. 'Drawing lines the sand' isn't such a big deal guys right?
Only to the extent we let them get affluent enough via the petrodollar for them to do it on such a scale.
>>228786
If all the elements are there and Europe is a powder keg all you need is a spark. If people care more about their comfort like you say they do all it takes is one event to temporarily lower our 'comfyness' in the developed world m8
>>228797
These are the trials and tribulations of all places at all times.
>>228822
>one event to temporarily lower our 'comfyness' in the developed world m8
You vastly overestimate the willingness of the average person to discard his cozy 9-5 lifestyle because he's upset about his government. And there are still people who don't even care at all. No, we aren't anywhere near rock bottom yet.
>>228822
If it's not due to Muslims it would probably be the strain of developing countries growing putting a strain on resources since they are starting to march western consumption (India and meat) and higher priced goods/unable to exploit cheaper resources.
Our lifestyle relies on keeping comfy even if it means making others uncomfortable or doing dubious things to stay comfy which may negatively impact it down the line.
>>228822
Since we're on the history board you should do some reading about the chaotic years of the Weimar Republic and know that we aren't even remotely close to that.
People still have jobs. People still have homes. The government can pull all kinds of nonsense but as long as people like us have the luxury to sit and post on 4chan in the middle of the night then we aren't on the brink of global implosion.
>>228757
What the fuck are you even trying to say.
Cause and Effect retard.
>>228847
Yeah I'm sure, they're just lazy and need to 'overcome' them am I right?
If you look at history and see the reasons the way things are and then throw human nature into it your 'hurr overcome' isn't a good argument. By that logic white people should have 'overcome' being communist pussies who let Ahmed and Mehmet fuck their daughters by now. But you types put the blame on another ethnic group controlling you because it makes yourself feel better about yourselves, that the current state of things isn't 'natural' and isn't your races fault.
>>227875
Didn't Russia and China go through rapid industrialization only after adopting said radical ideologies?
Also what about the French Revolution? It was very radical, violent, all-encompassing, etc, and France was not particularly industrialized in 1789.
>>228898
Famine is coming in the next 15-20 years in the developing world along with food riots. Countries being thrown into chaos that export shit effect the world economy. If war broke out in South America tomorrow Europe wouldn't have any fruit for its people a couple weeks from now.
>>227813
Seeing old pictures of secular islamic countries sorta gives me hope that maybe the region can move past the extreme violence and flourish.
What are the chances of this reasonably happening?
>>229114
Dunno.
In time, the Islamic revolutions may become so demonized as the Nazis were. Then, you'd see a less support for these fringe-groups within the general populace. ISIS kills a bunch of Muslims but still gets a lot of sympathy from too many of these.
Maybe 50 years from now Muslims will be self-whipped like the krauts today.
>>229208
>ISIS kills a bunch of Muslims but still gets a lot of sympathy from too many of these.
ISIS kills Shiites, and that's why Muslims (Sunni Muslims to be exact) give ISIS sympathy.
>>229114
None. Islam has historically raped and pillaged everything and will continue until their way of life is either exterminated or dies out.
>>228319
>I imagine they collectively sigh and brace themselves everything this sort of thing happens.
im pretty disgusted with myself that instead of exclusively feeling dismay at and hatred for the horror those people commit, this also immediately comes to my mind when something like this happens.
>>228757
imagine china walked into the UK, split england threeways, made one part communist, the other nationalist, and just bombed the third part to smithereens, then supported mass immigration of french into scotland, forced all of them to adapt major portions of chinese legal tradition and massively proselytized chinese cultural tradition, then cordoned off a tiny bit of scotland where the native scots get carted off to, and then they go and support some welsh nationalists that want to rule all of UK and hate china. 20 years later, they just leave. what do you think would happen in the former UK?
>>228873
>making others uncomfortable or doing dubious things
thats a really... diplomatic way to put it
>>228031
>Just imagine German-speaking Italians fighting to annex the German speaking part of Italy, it's beyond unreasonable.
You mean this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Tyrolean_Liberation_Committee ?
>>228055
DESIGNATED
>>229487
>what do you think would happen in the former UK?
Someone would put the kettle on?
>>229487
I'd say it would be more accurate to state the situation as follows:
The year is 2015. The United States is invaded by [Boogyman] and loses that war. The enemy has pretty overwhelming firepower, numbers and economic weight.
This power combines Canada and the United States into a single country. But, it puts a French Canadian in charge of it, and fills the government and civil service with French Canadians. It also bars anyone unable to speak French from working for the government, or starting a business.
30 years down the road, this power pulls out of North America, and the French Canadians still left in government try to hold on to power.
Obviously, it's not entirely accurate, as cultures and demographics in the world are totally different, and relations between these are ridiculously complicated. But simplistic explanation for an imageboard desu.
>>228142
>Wahhabism was already in place in Saudi Arabia
With Arabia being ruled by the Ottomans (largely) and without any national unity (which >>227845 under british mandate tried to create) wahhabism was incredibly weak and not at the forefront of life in Arabia - certainly not strong enough to be exported either.
>>227890
Liberal Democracy was underway in Iran until the CIA stepped in.
>>228757
>Yet they were irreparably wrecked because a few limeys and frogs showed up, had tea, drew some lines on a map, and promptly fucked off back home?
Because that's all they did and what happened?
>>229599
It would be a better analogy if Mormons or Evangelicals were in charge.
>>227813
As much as I don't like blaming Israel, the Six Day War put a nail in the coffin of Arab Nationalism. Nasser's reputation got absolutely btfo and so Islamism seemed like the best alternative.
>>227945
>>229669
>>228253
You guys forget that liberalism, at least in the arab memory, had been tried from 1920s to the 1960s. Nasser came to power because the liberal parliamentary monarchy was utterly incompetent, corrupt and had collaborated with the British extensively. The same thing happened in Iraq. The country grained nominal independence but that government was led by a corrupt group of former Ottoman officers-turned-politicians and royal officials. Lebanon also had a liberal system that utterly failed because it institutionalized sectarianism. Other countries like Algeria, Pakistan and Tunisia arguably had liberal systems under colonial rule which they rebelled against. Pretty sure Morocco is liberal economically but has an authoritarian monarchy.
>>227813
>Wasn't Islam on a path to secularism before the Islamic revival?
Which you could argue the West was also responsible for. The West made mistakes pertaining to the region and they did good things as well. The Islamic Revival blames the West for all sins of babylon because it suits them. Like Versailles was blamed by the Nazis. And to this day there are people, not just right wingers, almost apologizing the Nazis because Versailles was "unfair".
And concerning your friend, Arabs will blame anyone else for their problems really. They're worse than Ukrainians. Which is why Islamism is so succeful among them. Generalizing here, but they do not have a culture of self criticism.
>>227813
Partially, it also has a lot to do with the collapse of the Ottomans, though.
When a government that's lasted for centuries is overthrown there's naturally a lot of unrest and upheaval, and religion often steps in to take on the role of providing stability, as the Catholic Church did after the collapse of Western Rome.
Of course, when a religious organization takes on the responsibility of government, it also ends up having a lot of the problems any other government has. Namely, corruption. And just as the Catholic Church went from the relative peacefulness and wholesomeness of the early Christians to insane shit like the torturing of "heretics" or the selling of indulgences, so too did the religious organizations in the Middle East grow corrupt and violent.
>>228319
ISIS isn't the problem though, it's Islamic extremism, which is very popular even if ISIS isn't. For example:
NOP Research: 1 in 4 British Muslims say 7/7 bombings were justified
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date=2011-04-06
http://www.webcitation.org/5xkMGAEvY
People-Press: 31% of Turks support suicide attacks against Westerners in Iraq.
http://people-press.org/report/206/a-year-after-iraq-war
World Public Opinion: 61% of Egyptians approve of attacks on Americans
32% of Indonesians approve of attacks on Americans
41% of Pakistanis approve of attacks on Americans
38% of Moroccans approve of attacks on Americans
83% of Palestinians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (only 14% oppose)
62% of Jordanians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (21% oppose)
42% of Turks approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (45% oppose)
A minority of Muslims disagreed entirely with terror attacks on Americans:
(Egypt 34%; Indonesia 45%; Pakistan 33%)
About half of those opposed to attacking Americans were sympathetic with al-Qaeda’s attitude toward the U.S.
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/feb09/STARTII_Feb09_rpt.pdf
Pew Research (2010): 15% of Indonesians believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified.
34% of Nigerian Muslims believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified.
http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/
16% of young Muslims in Belgium state terrorism is "acceptable".
http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/1275/Islam/article/detail/1619036/2013/04/22/Zestien-procent-moslimjongens-vindt-terrorisme-aanvaardbaar.dhtml
>>228319
Populus Poll (2006): 12% of young Muslims in Britain (and 12% overall) believe that suicide attacks against civilians in Britain can be justified. 1 in 4 support suicide attacks against British troops.
http://www.populuslimited.com/pdf/2006_02_07_times.pdf
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist
Pew Research (2007): 26% of younger Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are justified.
35% of young Muslims in Britain believe suicide bombings are justified (24% overall).
42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall).
22% of young Muslims in Germany believe suicide bombings are justified.(13% overall).
29% of young Muslims in Spain believe suicide bombings are justified.(25% overall).
http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=60
Pew Research (2011): 8% of Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified (81% never).
28% of Egyptian Muslims believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified (38% never).
http://www.people-press.org/2011/08/30/muslim-americans-no-signs-of-growth-in-alienation-or-support-for-extremism/
>>228319
Pew Research (2007): Muslim-Americans who identify more strongly with their religion are three times more likely to feel that suicide bombings are justified
http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=60
ICM: 5% of Muslims in Britain tell pollsters they would not report a planned Islamic terror attack to authorities.
27% do not support the deportation of Islamic extremists preaching violence and hate.
http://www.scotsman.com/?id=1956912005
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist.html
ICM Poll: 25% of British Muslims disagree that a Muslim has an obligation to report terrorists to police.
http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/reviews/2004/Guardian%20Muslims%20Poll%20Nov%2004/Guardian%20Muslims%20Nov04.asp
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist
Pew Research (2013): Only 57% of Muslims worldwide disapprove of al-Qaeda. Only 51% disapprove of the Taliban. 13% support both groups and 1 in 4 refuse to say.
http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/09/10/muslim-publics-share-concerns-about-extremist-groups/
BBC Radio (2015): 45% of British Muslims agree that clerics preaching violence against the West represent "mainstream Islam".
http://comres.co.uk/polls/bbc-radio-4-today-muslim-poll/
The Polling Company CSP Poll (2015): 19% of Muslim-Americans say that violence is justified in order to make Sharia the law in the United States (66% disagree).
http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/150612-CSP-Polling-Company-Nationwide-Online-Survey-of-Muslims-Topline-Poll-Data.pdf
The Polling Company CSP Poll (2015): 25% of Muslim-Americans say that violence against Americans in the United States is justified as part of the "global Jihad (64% disagree).
http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/150612-CSP-Polling-Company-Nationwide-Online-Survey-of-Muslims-Topline-Poll-Data.pdf
>>229690
>>229911
desu Arab brotherhood was a joke and you even see it here with Gulf Arabs not doing shit for Syrians at all.
Islam has always been a violent fucking religion, it is basically founded on that principle; violence.
>mohammed hear voices from heaven, "go tell the people that I am cool even though I am lame as fuck"
>mohammed can't convince anyone through regular conversion because his religion sucks(no pork and wine, wtf)
>Mohammed gets an Idea
>why don't I just kill in the name of the peaceful one
>Muhammed starts a war in the middle east
>converts the entire population, not a hard choice when the alternative is beheading
>this pattern continues after Muhammad is dead
>people don't like what mussies say
>they refuse
>mussies gets mad
>starts to kill in the name of the peaceful one
>this continues until the Mongolians give them a hard time from behind
So that is why Islam is so appealing annons either you accept the peaceful one or you get executed
>>230225
These meme posts just need to stop. They just don't agree with the documented history at all. Anyone educated on the topic, for example, knows that they didn't force conversions under the Caliphate, because they wanted to remain as an elite upper class.
This place should be for sensible discussion only.
>>230257
You're arguing that history does not agree with these statements and yet provide no sources to support this.
0/10
>>230277
The post i replied to had no sources either.
0/10
>>230289
so we're at a stand still, and I never said that post had sources either.
better start finding sources bud.
>>230225
>this is considered a well thought out argument on /his/
>>230289
Source the Hadith and any basic History atlas
>>230337
>Hadith
So accounts mostly written 200 years after the death of Mohammed?
Show me some Quranic verses son. The historical account is that Islam was spread by political systems like jizya and the freeing of slaves until the Caliphate. Which is to be expected, because you know it's an empire and like any empire is expansionist.
>>230315
Like Christianity?
I don't understand, the Jews have the most violent version of god, yet they don't forcefully convert anymore.
>>230359
Nope, Christians(at least in the start) managed to convert people through voluntary conversions while being shunned by the Romans unlike Mohammed, the jews keep to themselves they are the tribe and really do not like it when people try to enter.
>>230346
The hadith is not an invalid source, we can use the Norse Sagas to prove that the Vikings actually was in America so in the same sense we can also use his own biography
>>230441
>we can use the Norse Sagas to prove that the Vikings actually was in America so in the same sense we can also use his own biography
We can't. People supporting this theory needed archeological backing to make it accepted.
>>230473
No they do use it as an evidence, they are literally describing the native Americans in the text.
They also use other holy texts to back up claims, the bible and Jewish texts for instance have been used before they had any archeological proofs
>>230583
Yes it was at the time, and that was fucking retarded.
Next
>>230595
yeah, that retarded time like 100 years ago, back when light bulbs were being engineered, the first industrial war was being fought and back when people actually looked down on you when you acted like a filthy degenerate. Feminists love to bring up the shieldmaiden warriors do you know where they get it from, not archeological evidence they get it from the sagas and some few eyewitness reports and it is good enough for modern historians and modern historians are still using this as source material
>>227813
someone told me soviets started to fuel anti-western propaganda between muslims, but I really don't know very much about it
>>227838
petrodollar
>>227838
Safe financial criminality for Western elites.
>>228095
It is also childish to consider the wars between Europe an Arabs which have been going on since the early ADs, asbpurely Christian vs Muslim as opposed to various different empire building groups looking to secure land and power.
Muslims conquered Byzantium, and north Africa, mongols conquered everyone, Europeans waged war amongst themselves building kingdoms. That some wars were framed as Christian vs Muslim to get the troops in battle doesn't mean they weren't about territory.
>>230681
Soviets were trying to gain influence in the region but the West was doing the same
Cool Afghan propaganda posters created by the CIA
http://digitalpostercollection.com/1979-1989-soviet-afghanistan-war/mujahideen-soviet-afghanistan-war/
>>230724
You can't reason with those people anon. To them it's all ISLAM ISLAM ISLAM.
anyone else surprised at how decent this thread is?
>>230390
>Nope, Christians(at least in the start) managed to convert people through voluntary conversions
The Saxon Wars? The Northern Crusades? The Reconquista?
>>227813
>Is the West responsible for the Islamic revival in the 70s?
Yes.
>Wasn't Islam on a path to secularism before the Islamic revival?
Yes.
Chickens coming home to roost. The future you chose. etc.
>>230315
>No, basically this is what happened people agree that the only reason Islam got so huge was due to forced conversion
But that's wrong, fucktard.
>>230778
I made the thread and then went to Chiles. Came back to a pretty interesting read. I feel my question has already been answered and it's sort of going in a different direction, but its alright. going to go take a poop now lad
>>230257
Muslim Culture is about DESTROYING other cultures, especially of muslims you do not align with. It canonically seeks a monoculture and multiculturalism is but competing and conflicting monocultures.
When the only book that matters is the quran and essentially all art is idolatry, sacking libraries and museums is but a logical conclusion.
>>230731
>http://digitalpostercollection.com/1979-1989-soviet-afghanistan-war/mujahideen-soviet-afghanistan-war/
Nice, thank you
>>230946
It's just a phase. Pretty sure Judaism and Christianity had this phase too.
>>231059
Regardless, a quarantine is the only rational thing to do
>>230946
Are you sure you are not describing the West?
>>231147
so it's only bad when white people do it?
Islamist imperialism is not to receive the same sort of scrutiny?
>>230346
>jizya
teehee.jpg
>>227850
For Sunni muslims Shia are NOT muslims.
You guys should watch the documentary 'The power of nightmares' which is about the rise of the muslim brotherhood and wahabbism and the role of the west in it.
>>227983
Islamic fundamentalism is a form of fascism.
>>228985
I believe the entire point of Soviet communism was to be culture-less and globalized.
>>227998
Ethnic violence in India is at an all time historic low. Till the 90s from the 70s there were Hindu Muslim riots every year. The last religious riot happened in 2002 in Modi's state. With the advent of economic growth the violence has ebbed. There have been individual clashes but in a country with the largest Muslim minority population, larger than Iraq and Iran put together it's not tantamount to any larger issue.
There is the problem with tribals fighting against the state and to a great extent they're justified. But that battle is a battle of hunger not of ideology or belief.
The founding principle of India as opposed to Pakistan has been secularism. There are bound to be tensions but as far as changing that central doctrine goes it's not going to happen short of a nuclear war.
>>229114
I kinda wonder if Iran won't lead the way. It went down the Islamist road and has had time to get sick of it and show it doesn't work.
No better way to turn people off an ideology then to try it out for a few decades and have it fail in practice (nobody is worried about the return of radical-socialism in ex-Communist countries for example, since they learned that lesson the hard way).
>>229652
I wouldn't say incredibly weak. The Saud's and al-Wahhab got together in the mid 18th century, and controlled most of present Saudi Arabia until 1818 when the Ottoman-Egyptians drove them into the interior. But they were always contesting for control from that point forward.
And power wasn't handed to them by the British either. The Saudis consolidated control in the interior before taking the rest of the (present) country after others had expelled the Ottomans.
For the West it was an issue of dealing with who was in change, not putting someone in charge.
>>232474
The problem is Iran's Islamism is unique in that the Guardian Council and the Ayatollah-in-Chief are removed enough from daily policy that backlash will likely wash against a middling politician or his party while leaving the core Islamist character of the government dry.
>>231289
You should tell that to Al Azhar. They pretty much acknowledged them as the fifth school of Islamic jurisprudence during the 50s. The backlash against them is only recent with a return of a more salafist current.
>>227813
the sauds are to blame the saudi king is an adherent of fundamentalist wahhabist islam and he uses his vast wealth to promote that interpretation of islam to the rest of the Mohammedans. and we let it happen because we like the oil he has
>>227813
>Wasn't Islam on a path to secularism before the Islamic revival?
No. Rather the Arab World was on the road to secularism and modernity and had very much rejected religious based ideologies. The failure of essentially the statist model based around nationalism and socialiam in both everyday life and in international politics and economics is what lead to the rise of Islamism (which has been transformed into a more violent incarnations due to extreme state repression).
>>232474
...it's a shame ISIS won't leave the West alone (and vice versa) since it would obviously be a hellish place if left to its own devices, and would serve to dissuade a lot of people of the merits of the fundamentalist Islamic state... but then these people didn't seem to learn their lesson from the Taliban either (again because they triggered an outside response, thus furthering the victim complex among religious Muslims)
>>227834
>There were right wing movements springing up everywhere in the secular Arab countries of the 60s and 70s. The US just gave them the means to accomplish their goals.
because the european leftists at the time desired the de-colonization
>>232865
>De Gaulle was not a leftist
he was not a monarchist, so he is on the left
>>232790
ISIS as a proper state would just be identical to Saudi Arabia. Don't know why they dont just live there.
>>232538
they didn't have mecca or medinah until the british pretty sure
>>227922
etnocacerismo calls for ethnic unity of indigenous people, i.e. the polar opposite of nazism
>>227850
Nope, The Quran supports Jihad. And what the other anon said about sunni vs shiite is true as well
>>234158
Saudi Arabia minus the oil (so the need to run a real economy).
>>234698
AFAIK it had real missionary appeal once upon a time in South and Southeast Asia, since it was a way for low-cast peasants to get out of the caste system.
>>234158
It's because Saudi Arabia is OK with the west. Bin Laden left Saudi Arabia after they decided the US army would be better than his militians to defend the country
>>234672
So do the Bible and the Torah. Just like with any religion, if you want to kill in the name of your book you just have to find the most violent part, take it out of context, ignore the rest and your fellow believers, and interpret it as you want to.
At one moment christianism was for the holy war, now it's for holy peace, and each time it was an interpretation of the Bible. Do note that the "Allah will sort them out" doctrine used by terrorists today is exactly the same as the one used by christians centuries ago
>>234760
>the bible
The new testament doesn't do that though.
Christianity is based on Jesus's teachings and Jesus was a peaceful person. Muhammad went into war often and conquered lands.
Also, christianity has adapted to the modern world. Western, christian nations are bastions of free speech and personal freedoms. Muslim nations such as Saudi Arabia, Egypt, etc are authoritarian shitholes where being gay is illegal and punishable by death.
Don't give me that "religions are all the same" shit. I don't care what christians did 700 years ago, it doesn't matter. It's 2015. What matters is the present, and in the present Islamic terrorism is running rampant.
>>234883
>Muhammad went into war often and conquered lands.
Why is this hailed as the ultimate proof of being wrong?
So what if a religious leader was a general?
Forget Islam for a second. Just forget it exists today.
Why is Muhammad condemned, but other people such as Alexander or Caesar who did just as much terrible shit are hailed as great men? I mean Caesar fucking sold almost all of Gaul into slavery or death. Muhammad is no different from those.
>>234883
>Don't give me that "religions are all the same" shit. I don't care what christians did 700 years ago, it doesn't matter. It's 2015. What matters is the present, and in the present Islamic terrorism is running rampant.
Sure, but that doesn't make Islam unique still. Now is just their time. Don't you think 12th century Muslims had the same conversation with a Christian, who was trying to convince them that the crusaders atrocities were the acts of men and not Gods command.
>>234698
Primary way Islam grew was through voluntary conversion to gain higher social status.
>>234953
And having to pay less taxes.
>>230180
You're right in that it wouldn't have stopped the economic stagnation that the arab countries faced in the 1970s. but the gulf states were only just starting to reap the benefits of oil in the 1960s so anything seemed possible. Also remember the oil embargo was a direct reaction to the Yom Kippur war, which itself was a direct result of the six day war. It was the embargo that made the arab oil states filthy rich.
>>234941
I don't condemn Muhammad for being a conqueror(he was a very successful one as well), I condemn him for starting a violent religion. Alexander and Napoleon didn't.
Christianity was violent too, yes, but Jesus would never want that. Muhammad actively pushed for war and wanted muslims to wage war. It's imperialism at its worse.
Religion is supposed to be peaceful, something to give your life meaning, and it should be expressed with good deeds.
>>234951
>It's just their time
It has always been their time.
Islam has expressed itself with expansionism and imperialism from the moment it was conceived. The mongols set them back, now they are back for more.
>>235105
Muhammad wanted to improve the lives of Arabians, and to unite Arabia. He didn't start a violent religion, nor create one, it began peaceful, it ended violently. He preached peacefully for 13 years, before he and his followers were forcefully removed and had their property stolen, at which point he engaged in war. Throughout this war he gave many chances for peace, and many peace treaties, but his enemies consistently violated them, by the end he was sick of it and said destroy them. When they were defeated, he did not slaughter them or force conversion but let them go.
Muhammad in my eyes is different and separate considerable from what Islam is today.
>>235123
You're forgetting the role Abd-al Malik played in creating Islam
>>235146
Not really, Islam was created fully when Muhammad died. The changes made after are unneeded and often corrupt additions.
>>235165
>Islam was created fully when Muhammad died.
This is demonstrably false
>>235174
Prove it.
>>235180
It's kind of hard the follow the first four caliphs before they're appointed
>>234941
Iirc neither Alexander or Caesar championed themselves as prophets of God.
>>235180
Fred Donner, Stephen Shoemaker, and Robert Hoyland's latest works do a good job at going over this point. Tom Holland's 'Shadow of the Sword' is an easy to read summary of a lot of the same research.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RFK5u5lkhA
>>235183
What does that have to do with the religion, that's politics.
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[5:3] Prohibited for you are animals that die of themselves, blood, the meat of pigs,* and animals dedicated to other than GOD. (Animals that die of themselves include those) strangled, struck with an object, fallen from a height, gored, attacked by a wild animal-unless you save your animal before it dies-and animals sacrificed on altars. Also prohibited is dividing the meat through a game of chance; this is an abomination. Today, the disbelievers have given up concerning (the eradication of) your religion; do not fear them and fear Me instead. Today, I have completed your religion, perfected My blessing upon you, and I have decreed Submission as the religion for you.
From the end of the Quran,
>>227866
>A good piece of evidence for this is that countries that remained ethnically nationalist (primarily Turkey) had a far more difficult time succumbing to religious fundamentalism.
Turkey's also had its military staging coups whenever islamists have threatened the secular government. Too bad Erdogan purged the top brass a few years ago when there were suspicions of yet another coup.
>>231170
well it does get scrutiny
>>231289
You mean for Salafist Muslims, no one else are Muslims.
>>235273
A main reason why Turkey is like it is today is due American backed second coup in 1980s. After the coup a lot of the education was changed to support more religion and islamism to combat communism, as per US' rules. Like they have done in Afghanistan.
Is there any substance to the claim that Israel is at fault, or is that just Muslim taqiyya?
>>235392
What historical event are we talking about?
>>235196
>Iirc neither Alexander or Caesar championed themselves as prophets of God
Alaexander literally thought he was a God/son of God and Caeser was pretty much treated like one arguably far worse blasphemies/claims.
>>235415
Talking about the rise of Islamism. It started around when Israel was created did it not?
>>235392
>or is that just Muslim taqiyya?
Nice meme.
>Taqiyya is a global conspiracy muslims do where they lie and pretend theyre good when theyre actually all terrorists!
No actually Taqiyya is the concept where Muslims can deny their faith when under thread of persecution
>THATS TAQIYAA!
>>235473
Don't get your pants wet Abdul and stick to answering the question
>>235473
Not "under threat" anon, "at risk".
>>234883
That's because after Enlightenment Europe started ignoring a lot of Christianity and only believing the feely bits. Islamic world was in same process of slowly letting religion go of the more dangerous part of it (Turkey managed this for the most part, so did Northern Africa).
Saudi Wahhabist movement started exactly for that reason, Wahhab thought Muslims were becoming too irreligious, Salafism demands that anyone that doesn't follow Islam to most extreme and literal has a chance to repent or should be put to death.
It is not because Islam is more or less violent, it is because middle-east got back into believing religion after cold war and intervention. When people have nothing else left, they cling to religion and when religious extremists were supported by US and UK, because they were fighting against communism, they can take control in countries which otherwise they couldn't.
>>228757
>Yet they were irreparably wrecked because a few limeys and frogs showed up, had tea, drew some lines on a map, and promptly fucked off back home?
Depends. Some of the cases involved drinking 8.000-12.000 cups of tea before leaving, per person.
And when you have drunk that much tea, you have most likely done a complete government reform in the first year. If you just drink 100-1000 cups, you haven't done anything. And if you drink 30.000+ or more, you have laid down fundations for a solid government
And after that there is a Mehmet Comic:
Michael/Michaèl, my puppet colonial President
You are going home to pension soon
But before you leave, you should train a successor
Will you train somebody insane, who might be loyal to us?
Will you train the current cabinet, to allow them corruption?
Or will you just leave, and allow a civil war?
*picture of satelite state revolution*
>>234883
It wasn't always like that, until Islamic brotherhood got influence.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TX4RK8bj2W0
>>235511
Abbasid were also in Enlightement era where they follow Mu'tazili, a school of Islamic theology based on reason and rational thought.
>>228077
>the population as a whole
I really really doubt that the majority of the country looked like THAT. What about all the places without electricity or roads?
>>229669
Is there a single reason the CIA should exist?
They fuck everything up
>>235536
Exactly, schools of Islam where jurisprudence and theology are allowed were pretty reasonable but Salafism forbids even that because they think it invalidates word of God.
Arabs and Turks back during crusades considered Europeans too zealous about their religion, hell even Ottomans up until 1600s thought Europeans were too harsh in religious persecution.
One of the Ottoman Sultans is recorded thanking Spain sarcastically for expelling Jews because those Jews went to Ottoman lands, the Sultan said "You are making us rich and yourself poor because of your zeal"
>>230390
>(at least in the start)
This is a nice weasel sentence
Christianity was some shitty small cult until they managed to convert a emperor, and his child.
At which point it was convert, or die.
This trend continued until Europa & Russia was Christened in blood.
>>235552
They would have worn more traditional dress. But that doesn't mean a big black/blue burqa. Afghanistan had cool clothing before Islamic extremism. and their girls are pretty
:(
>>230841
>The Reconquista?
>implying self-defense against Islamic conquest is Christian forced conversion
