How come this board is overwhelmingly Anti-Protestant?
What do you guys thing of the different sects (ie. Anglicanism, Lutheranism, Evangicalisn etc.)
>>399734
>How come this board is overwhelmingly Anti-Protestant?
Except it's overwhelmingly anti-papist
>"If thou, illustrious Prince, had informed thy subjects that thou wert coming to visit them at an unnamed time and had requested them to be prepared in white garments to meet thee on thy coming; what wouldst thou do, if, on arrival, thou shouldst find that instead of robing themselves in white they had occupied themselves in violent debate about thy person -- some insisting that thou wert in France, others that thou wert in Spain; some declaring that thou would come on horseback, others that thou would come by chariot; some holding that thou would come with great pomp, others that thou would come without train or following? And what especially wouldst thou say if they debated not only with words but with blows of fist and strokes of sword, and if some succeeded in killing and destroying others who differed from them? 'He will come on horseback.' 'No, he won't; he will come by chariot.' 'You lie.' 'No, I do not; you are the liar.' 'Take that' -- a blow with the fist. 'You take that' -- a sword-thrust through the body. O Prince, what would you think of such citizens? Christ asked us to put on the white robes of a pure and holy life, but what occupies our thought? We dispute not only of the way to Christ, but of His relation to God the Father, of the Trinity, of predestination, of free will, of the nature of God, of angels, of the condition of the soul after death, -- of a multitude of matters that are not essential for salvation, and matters, in fact, which never can be known until our hearts are pure, for they are things which must be spiritually perceived."
pretty much summarises how I feel about denominational infighting
Anglican was by far the best Protestant bunch, but then they started ordaining female clergy in the 1970's and went downhill. Now the American Church in Anglican communion (Episcopalians) as well as the Canadians, have gay marriage, and it is only a matter of time before the CoE does.
Lutheranism is awful. All except for a handful of holdouts (Church of Norway, for instance), a given Lutheran denomination is either creationist, or this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bWHSpmXEJs
...That actually applies to Protestantism in general, actually.
By "evangelist", what do you mean? Fundamentalists?
>>399754
Orthodox has a massive presence here.
>>399734
The board is about history. History is a subject that protestants don't like because they think the Universe came into existence after the Sumerians invented glue.
>>399764
Huh funny you said this, my Dads a WASP and he was baptized and raised Anglican, but as a kid (I attended Christian Reformed) I remember him telling me about this sort of stuff and I didn't really figure it could be true. He did say tho this was quite the contrary and in Africa this church was a real success.
>>399773
I always assumed Catholics were the backward, non free thinking type. Netherlands for example experienced their boom, their art "Golden Age" after the spanish left and the artist could paint scenes of daily life
>>399764
>Anglican
>good
It was literally started because a king wanted to divorce and remarry.
Because History's not on their side.
>>399826
It was actually, for all intents and purposes, abolished by Bloody Mary. It was restarted by Elizabeth.
>>399793
I did too based on my own protestant upbringing and the solid historical argument you just made. There is no doubt the reformation and the removal of a stifling all powerful church played a major part in the enlightenment.
Now I am a non-believer and have discussed religion on the internet with Catholics my opinion is somewhat changed, their theology and respect for science is far more sound.
>>399829
>Germany
>Particularly north Germany
>UK
>Netherlands
>Scandinavia
>USA
>what is history
>>399734
Anglicanism-High Church is bro tier, Broad Church is ok, Low Church and liberals are shit.
Evangelicalism-Shit tier
Lutheranism-Better than Evangelicalism but it is still quite shit tier
Reformed-Worst tier
Pentecostal-Nonsensical concert worship tier
Either way, with the exception of Anglicanism(High and Broad sections only), the rest all suffer from one fundamental flaw that makes them shit tier, their divergence from actual Christianity as expressed by the Consensus Patrum and Ante Nicene Church.
>wondering why a board of historically literate people is anti-Protestant
>>399864
First off, ALL of those countries with the exception of the US are Secular now. Protestantism became the stepping stone towards irreligion.
Secondly, in Germany it is the Catholic parts which are the more wealthiest.
Third, I'm referring to History of Doctrine here where Protestantism fails to adhere to what Christianity originally teaches. In fact even worse is how there's no single coherent statement or belief but rather, beliefs.
>>399883
I forgot to add that the US is actually heading towards being Secular now.
>>399883
And what are these beliefs/ core values they stem from? I'm sorry if shitty question, but I don't have much religious education growing up, more of a obey this and don't question
>>399925
>what are these beliefs/ core values they stem from?
First I would deal with the differences between Protestants and where they stem from. Secondly, I'll cover their differences from that of the Early Church which the Reformers sought to return to.
a)Salvation(Luther and Calvin have two completely different views on this)
http://www.academia.edu/185285/Why_Luther_is_not_Quite_Protestant_The_Logic_of_Faith_in_a_Sacramental_Promise
b)Eucharist(Three main views between Protestants)
Luther-Sacramental Union which affirms a Realist view
Calvin-No actual change in Eucharistic elements used. The bread and wine are just bread and wine. The elect are transported into Heaven where they eat the real body and blood of Christ.
Zwingli-Nothing significant happens, just a remembrance of Jesus only.
c)Baptism
Luther-More closer to Catholicism. Not just symbolic and supernatural in nature.
Evangelical-Merely symbolic
d)Free will
Luther and Calvin-No free will
Arminus-Free will through Prevenient grace
Each side of the Protestant faction divide will claim they got their stuff from Scripture.
Differences with Early Christianity
a)Eucharist
Realist view affirmed. Symbolic views presuppose a mysterious connection between symbol and the thing symbolized. Symbol mediates the reality of the symbolized and participates in it.
Luther-Agreement
Calvin and Zwingli-Incompatible
b)Authority for matters of doctrine
Coincidence view affirmed where Scripture and Tradition converge into one. Both are seen as equal and complimentary authorities under this nature.
Methodist-Compatible through Prima Scriptura given how Tradition must be consulted when reading Scripture or in any matters of faith.
Other Protestants-Incompatible given Sola Scriptura.
c)Free Will
Church Fathers unanimously affirmed this against the fatalistic doctrines of some of the heresies they faced and some philosophies of their day.
Arminians-On same page
Luther and Calvin-Incompatible
>>399764
>Christians aren't creationist
What the fuck
>>400041
*Note that this is not a comprehensive lists of differences. An essay is needed to actually go through them in detail.
>>400055
Well clearly all Christians are creatonist if you are going to use the broadest sense of the word.
However these days when people say creationist they generally mean extreme, bible literal, Young Earth Creationists.
>>400055
I believe by "creationism" he refers to literal interpretations of Genesis, which are mostly a practice of American protestants and old folks, not actually Roman Church doctrine.
>>399764
>Lutherans are creationists
Literally what the fuck?
>>399883
This.
>>399883
>US not secular
>>400138
It's the most religious compared to the other Protestant countries.
>>400155
That's factual horseshit, it was founded on the principle of separation of church and state. Meanwhile there are still state churches in Scandinavia and the UK.
>>399734
>Anglicanism is ok
>Lutheranism is less ok, but still acceptable
>Methodists, not ok, but tolerable
>Fundamentalist, evangelical, churches are not ok and are shit tier
Pentecostal churches are not ok, are shit tier and they're laughable.
Daily reminder
>>399764
>Ordaining female clergy
>gay marriage
I don't see what's wrong with either of these things. If anything, sensible reforms like that will keep Christianity relevant.
>>400202
Factual horseshit?
No. But to be fair to you, my choice of wording here seems poor. Irreligious seems to be more suited to prevent confusion.
>>399883
Have you ever considered the possibility that secular governance could benefit a nation's well-being?
>in Germany it is the Catholic parts which are the more wealthiest.
Protestantism in Germany was historically concentrated toward the north and east. Ever heard of something called East Germany? That's probably got a lot more to do with that disparity than a religious divide.
>the more wealthiest.
lel
>>400218
>but muh old testament.
>St. Paul saying Homosex is bad and women shall not be teachers
>>399793
No, Young Earth Creationism is a uniquely American Protestant trend. Not even European Protestants believe in it.
>>400236
>accepting the validity of something written by disgruntled third-world manlets 2,000 years ago
Do you not realize that this is the most fundamentally wrong thing about religion? We shit on Islam all the time (and rightfully so) because it too strictly adheres to archaic texts with outdated, barbaric conceptions of morality. If Christianity can't change, it's no better.
>>400232
Secular in that context denote lack of religiosity not style of governance.
>Ever heard of something called East Germany? That's probably got a lot more to do with that disparity than a religious divide.
So what exactly are you saying here? The Southern and Western regions are more Catholic and more wealthier compared to their Protestant parts.
>>400097
There are many Lutheran denominations. They're either creationists, or that video (and those two types of denominations hate each other). Except for a handful of exceptions, like the Church of Norway.
>>400055
I mean Young Earth Creationists. Not Old Earth Creationists.
>>400218
From an Orthodox perspective, Christianity should never, ever reform, especially to "stay relevant". The job is to preserve it exactly as Christ gave it to us.
And take a look at all these liberal denominations you think are staying relevant: they are the fastest shrinking ones of all, because they don't offer any different way of life than atheism.
>>400261
Are you even a Christian? Serious question.
>>400243
Actually YEC was invented by the Catholics and used for centuries, they only upgraded their doctrine after Darwin.
>>400431
I'm Orthodox, YEC was never a doctrine in my Church, it was always a theologoumenon.
>>400521
Nobody cares about Orthodox, you might as well not exist.
>>400553
That was a bit rude, bro
>>400565
Well it's true
OP here. So what I've taken from this that according to /His/ the worst possibly level of Christianity is all these new American denominations, while European sects which have adapted are OK.
I don't get why Orthodoxy is accepted then if it's the one that's remained the most original?
>Protestant Threads
Using a discussion of Martin Luther as a means of shit talking Catholics. Sometimes attracts creationists, terrible discussions. Theology threads never go well because Protestants don't agree on anything.
>Catholic threads
Historical revisionism over things like Gallo, Catholic censoring of scientific books like Bacon and Descartes, and the 4th crusade, whiny crusader role players. Theology threads can be ok.
>Orthodox threads
Discussion of actual history. Chill as fuck posters. Actually interesting theology threads (look at the one on Orthodox mysticism up right now).
I can't speak for all sects and practitioners, but American Protestants are a bunch of backwater, anti-intellectual fuckwits. I'm not a believer and I have no qualms with Catholics or Orthodox Christians, but fuck those retarded Protestants.
Catholics are the biggest shitposters here. Massive superiority complexes and they're usually a bunch of e-roleplayers. I'm saying this as a Catholic.
>>400209
It would be cool if this had any logical pattern or explanation.
>>400371
Well that's a fucking joke, because Christ taught basically nothing that Christians believe, but why would we talk about history on /his/? The fucker was a Jew, after all.
>>400431
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
HA!
>>400218
The ordination of women is wrong because ordained men are representatives of Christ when executing their ecclesiastical services. You cannot have a female representative of Christ because Christ was not a woman. Also, men who are ordained become married to the Holy Mother Church. A woman cannot wed another woman, even if one of those women is only symbolically female.
Catholics hold that the primary purpose of sex is the creation of life, God's greatest gift to mankind. Partners in a same-sex relationship cannot produce offspring together. Sex that is not open to the gift of life and that is done purely for pleasure is a mortal sin. Allowing same sex couples to marry would be a celebration of a living in continual sin, which leads to the persons involved being punished in the afterlife, which is precisely what the Church is trying to stop.
The idea of reforming a religion is absurd. What faith can you have in a religion if that religion is constantly changing what it claims to believe to maintain popular appeal?
>/his/ is only cool with Anglican Protestants who are basically catholic anyway
What a surprise.
>>401592
You are fucking retarded.
>>401762
Also, let's sacrifice goats and stone disobedient children. Your post takes cherry picking to whole new extreme.
>there are grown ups on 4chan, right now, who debate how they should best worship a figure from Jewish fairytales
>>399734
>muh thesis
http://strawpoll.me/6251967
>>401794
>there are historians who don't realize the greatness of Jesus Christ, Mary, and the Saints in heaven, seated by the one true father.
>>399734
I'm Apostolic. :^)
>>401499
According to the Orthodox, Christ taught everything that defines the Christian faith. Everything else is theologoumena.
>>401766
Sacrificing goats and stoning children was never part of Christianity.
>>401794
There are posters here that argue about the power of the great Sky Wizard
>>401850
There are also posters who believe the Big Bang happened for no reason and that humanity happening was just random.
>>401854
so we just deny evidence and believe that the Jews figured it out?
>>401856
Well it had to be revealed to SOMEBODY, might as well be them.
>>401856
Lack of evidence isn't evidence.
Prester John is the best Christian ruler in history. Prove me wrong.
You know what I most enjoy about these sorts of threads where Christians argue about which of you worship something that doesn't exist best? Like 600 years ago you guys would be literally killing each other. You would smash up each other's churches, pillage each other's villages, etc. But now in these bourgeois liberal times, you just post disparaging reaction images and call each other faggots. It's funny how things turn out, isn't it?
>>401592
>You cannot have a female representative of Christ because Christ was not a woman.
So then why can we have ordained men who aren't Jewish?
>>401865
He didn't exist.
I don't really understand.
From what I can see, some of the reasons people here prefer Catholicism/Orthodoxy to Protestantism is that Catholicism/Orthodoxy because they don't adhere to the Bible in certain ways (like Young Earth Creationism), yet they adhere more strictly in other ways as well (No female priests, gay marriage, etc).
So how can you determine objectively that Protestantism is bad because its more liberal/conservative interpretations, but Catholicism is also good because of its more liberal/conservative interpretations? It seems to me that it's more like it's just entirely personal belief and not objective.
>>401986
Every Ethiopian ruler ever has been Prester John.
>>401958
He's just being speculative. Christ being a man, from an Orthodox perspective, is important, but it's not the substance of why women can't be ordained (just like full immersion baptism and using leavened bread for the Eucharist are important, but lacking them doesn't invalidate the Sacraments).
The reason why women can't be ordained is simply because Christ didn't ordain women, even though he had many very close female followers, and because there has never been a period in the Church's history where female ordination has been permitted. To allow it now, would mean the Church has been wrong in doctrine for nearly 2000 years, which would invalidate her as the One, True, Unchanging Church.
Because Catholics are the most vocal about muh one true church.
Protestantism has different sects, some with odd customs, but they will never ever recognize the pagan deities the catholics (and orthodox) circlejerk about.
>>402003
Christians on here are Catholic/Orthodoxy because it looks the coolest. They're atheists purely in it for roleplaying and the nifty looking aesthetics.
It used to be Catholicism that was all the rage, but then Christposters found they could get extra hipster cred for Eastern Orthodoxy (It's a pretty obscure denomination, you've probably never heard of it).
>>402003
Taking Genesis as allegorical has only been framed as liberal with modernism. Since before Christ, there have been Jewish thinkers who saw it as figurative (see Philo). Whereas theological liberalism is a very modern phenomenon which is liberal on *dogma*. Taking Genesis literally was never, ever dogma in the Orthodox Church, it was always a theologoumenon
>It seems to me that it's more like it's just entirely personal belief and not objective.
Orthodox and Catholic have Apostolic succession.
>>402023
Orthodoxy hasn't changed as much as Roman Catholics.
Just because you're a very superficial person, doesn't mean everyone else is. I hope someday you can realize that Christ is about love.
>>399764
>Lutheranism is awful. All except for a handful of holdouts (Church of Norway, for instance), a given Lutheran denomination is either creationist, or this
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bWHSpmXEJs
>...That actually applies to Protestantism in general, actually.
No
t. Went to a Lutheran School
>>400218
>keep Christianity relevant
fuck you
>>402272
Times have changed. Which denominations was prevalent in it?
>>402354
>>402401
Lutheran Church of Australia
School was very pro-science and modern thinking, in the year i graduated the Year 12 tertiary scores were in the 86th percentile for the state, but at the same time It would be in no way considered overly liberal or progressive socially. That being said, outside of Christian Studies the things they taught were really no different to a state school, by law all private schools have to teach the state curriculum which includes sex education, drugs and alcohol education and science.
>>401766
>sacrifice goats
You fucking retard do you even know the significance of Christ's death? Ever wondered why he's called the lamb of God?
>>399734
Medieval Catholicism was great until Protestantism ruined it.
All those religious holidays. Whoring and gambling and then confession. Free wine and bread every Sunday.
Also indulgences...
>>402747
>all this degeneracy, we had it so good!
Why don't you just become an atheist if you crave to be a nigger with shit morals? Stop polluting christianity with your trash.
>>402747
As a devout Catholic who's actually bothered to delve into the workings of the Church, Luther had no real grounds to criticize indulgences. There's nothing at all wrong with indulgences. Christ gave Peter, and by extension the Church, the power to forgive sin. The mechanism by which those sins are forgiven is open to a certain degree of flexibility. If the Church wants to allow people to buy their way out of Purgatory in order to finance the building of cathedrals, what's wrong with that? They're within their rights. God himself gave them that authority.
>>402473
They already say that the Bible is silent on homosexuality (even though the NT explicitly condemns it), and so they can't properly consider it a sin. It's only a matter of time before they have gay marriage, if they don't already.
>>402766
Jeez. I guess god did not give you functional brain with a sarcasm detector.
>>402768
I'm not as learned of Martin Luther and his writings as you probably are, but I thought he was criticizing the SALE of indulgences, not the concept itself.
>>399734
Because Protestant nations are overwhelmingly secular to the point of atheism. Liberal atheists have distorted Europe to the point of accepting millions of Muslims.
>>399734
>How come this board is overwhelmingly Anti-Protestant?
It's a history board. History is not on the side of protestants.
>>399766
90% of "orthodox christians" are LARPers and the rest are Slav skinheads.
Because before Protestantism, religion had a place in western European society and sometimes it would bleed into other aspects of life, but it was largely confined to it's place. After Protestantism, everything became consumed by religion, it was turning up in places and discussions it had to purpose being in. It took power from the institutions keeping the lid on all the crazy and blew the fucking top off.
>>400236
St.Paul is a heretic who used the religion for his own agenda. You're basically not a Christian if you bother with his writings.
>>403663
What about Greeks, Romanians, Moldavians or Georgians? Calling them slav is fucking triggering mate.
>>403745
Who cares? they could be martians and nobody would give a shit about them.
>>400138
I mean one of the big reasons we support Israel so hard is like half our government thinks Jews have to control Israel to fulfill an End-of-the-World prophecy.
>>399734
>Because before Protestantism, religion had a place in western European society and sometimes it would bleed into other aspects of life, but it was largely confined to it's place.
You can't be serious.
>>403758
Right. So any small-ish country on the continent is fucking uninteresting. Let me guess, burger? Did you prep your wife and her children for the regular BBC visit?
>>403786
>Right. So any small-ish country on the continent is fucking uninteresting.
Right, every single Montenegrin, Moldavian, Georgian etc could disappear tomorrow and it would make only the smallest impact on the world.
The average person anywhere would be really hard pressed to give a fuck. So I'm sorry you're not the special snowflake you thought you were.
>>403663
Let's face it, orthodoxy is the only non meme version of Christianity today.
>>403799
Not from the area actually, just curious how much further your retardation goes.
>montenegro
>not slav
OK, this has to be bait.
>>403823
Coptic/Oriental Orthodox too. But they're virtually one Church now.
>>403832
I never said they weren't, they are irrelevant, possibly the most irrelevant nation in a sea of irrelevancy.
>>403844
>hurr durr dis region shit
>hurr durr my region kewl
K
>>399734
Speak for yourself, im faking historical documents to create a new branch of christianjty for dumb americans to latch onto so i can be rich
I love protestants, they are retarded, especially evangelicals
If your interested i can shill it here a bit for you guys
>>403850
I never said that at all, I live in possibly the most irrelevant place on the planet, those regions just as irrelevant, if not more so, than where I live.
Get off your high horse, faggot.
>Niggers hating on protestantism when its' leniency allowed protestant nations to flourish while catholic nations did not
>>403893
In actuality there's no connection, the catholic states that turned protestant were already wealthy and those who remained catholic were also still wealthy. The greatest German states are still the catholic Bavaria and Austria. Only Scandinavia made something out of itself.
>>399734
Because Protestants usually range from bat-shit crazy zealots who don't allow fun to hippies that don't even follow the book they say they follow while being raging homosexuals. There is barely anything in between when it comes to protestants.
>>403763
No, the reason we support Israel is because half of our government is on their payroll. It's corruption, not religion.
>>403906
England was poor as shit until the 1500s. But you could say they got rich through colonies rather than just protestantism.
>>403906
>Bavaria
>not poor agrarian craphole until BRD
>>403852
Sup, Joe?
>>399734
Questioning atheist and former Southern Baptist here (was also comfirmed Methodist)
The problem with Protestantism is that it is too susceptible to man-made follies. I've seen a church break apart because of it.
Orthodoxy's preservation of the Holy Tradition seems to be a good guard against this
>>399757
Saved for future demoninationfag threads.
>>402023
>but then Christposters found they could get extra hipster cred for Eastern Orthodoxy
I think it's about Byzantine nostalgia more than anything
>>404703
Amen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noetoc2W4Pc
>>405901
The tradition of the Orthodox Church is not, strictly speaking, Byzantine, even thought Byzantine culture was greatly influenced by it. For instance, the Coptic Church, which is on the verge of full communion with the Orthodox Church, is practically identical apart from different styles of 2D art and more Arabic sounding hymns.
>>399734
Edgy conservative American teens know they can't become protestant fundamentalists like their grandparents without getting picked on but still want to adopt some lifestyle that will let them broadcast their opposition to the progressive consensus in their cohort. So they pick Catholicism and aggressively spam an interpretation that aligns with the same old conservative values and ignore all the inconvenient parts like the current Pope.
