![Mao_Zedong_portrait[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/jSQEoBA.jpg "Mao_Zedong_portrait[1].jpg")
>The Great Leap Forward
can someone tell me what the hell Mao was thinking with this idea. Even on paper you could see how braindead retarded this idea was
Maybe retarded to gweilo, but the only magnificence gweilo knows is his own stupidity.
He was trying to modernize China in a short period of time, instead of letting the modernization happen naturally.
>>391445
>With no personal knowledge of metallurgy, Mao encouraged the establishment of small backyard steel furnaces in every commune and in each urban neighborhood. Mao was shown an example of a backyard furnace in Hefei, Anhui in September 1958 by provincial first secretary Zeng Xisheng.[20] The unit was claimed to be manufacturing high quality steel.[20]
>Huge efforts on the part of peasants and other workers were made to produce steel out of scrap metal. To fuel the furnaces the local environment was denuded of trees and wood taken from the doors and furniture of peasants' houses. Pots, pans, and other metal artifacts were requisitioned to supply the "scrap" for the furnaces so that the wildly optimistic production targets could be met. Many of the male agricultural workers were diverted from the harvest to help the iron production as were the workers at many factories, schools and even hospitals.
>Although the output consisted of low quality lumps of pig iron which was of negligible economic worth, Mao had a deep distrust of intellectuals who could have pointed this out, and placed his faith in the power of the mass mobilization of the peasants.
>>391445
>Even on paper you could see how braindead retarded this idea was
Here's the thing. Nobody had tried forced village based industrialisation, and the Chinese Party was significantly trapped by its own ideology into believing that it was possible because it was necessary. The alternative development pathway involved acquiescence to Soviet power, and was viewed as unacceptable.
>>391464
JUST FAMINE MY SHIT UP
>>391464
>With no personal knowledge of metallurgy,
>Although the output consisted of low quality lumps of pig iron which was of negligible economic worth, Mao had a deep distrust of intellectuals who could have pointed this out,
>>391485
The thing is, the British and US steel industries started from wrought iron puddling in effectively backyard furnaces.
With highly skilled workers.
And coal puddling.
>>391464
>make every farmer work on steel production
>w-why is there less food all of a sudden?
>>391504
>hey lets kill all these pest sparrows that eat our crops
>where did all these locusts come from??
Turns out industrialization is better achieved through capitalism than communism. After the failure of the GLF he Mao lost alot of influence and honestly at that point someone should have spiked his tea with poison because the next time he came back it was with the new meme redguards and he almost succeeded in fucking over china again
>>391464
>>With no personal knowledge of metallurgy
>>Although the output consisted of low quality lumps of pig iron which was of negligible economic worth, Mao had a deep distrust of intellectuals who could have pointed this out, and placed his faith in the power of the mass mobilization of the peasants.
>People look up to this man
>>391697
cult of personality innit
Surviving the Long March convinced Mao that willpower could overcome anything. He believed that all he had to do was motivate the Chinese to produce more grain and steel and then a massive leap would occur in industrialization.
He did not respect technical expertise and believed it could be made up for by motivating China's massive population to work harder. He was wrong and people were too afraid to tell him that he was wrong. Those who tried were purged.
So is this board just
>I don't want to read anything please spoonfeed me ideology & bias ridden tidbits
?
[spoiler]That said the great leap forward was a fucking shitshow[/spoiler]
>>392007
Pretty much it is /int/ with dates unless you luck out. For an example of the pathetic level of discourse, watch the Yanks react to me calling Ken Burns overly sentimental or attacking their lionisation of historians as "homers"
>>392007
It's utter shit during American hours. Have to wait for European evening before some decent stuff pops up.
>>392024
Mate, it's anywhere from midnight to 3:00 AM in the states right now. Stop waiting for Euro hours - you're in them.
>>392098
It is less shit for the next 9 hours or so, that's true. But it is still a steaming crap.
He was thinking about industrialization. Soviet state-ordianed plans were arguably successful. Mao bought the arguments. He wasn't alone.
He wanted to get nukes asap to ensure China's sovereignty and didn't care about the cost.
Mao knew how to fight a war.
He didn't know how to run a country.
>>391634
>Turns out industrialization is better achieved through capitalism than communism
It wasn't even because of communism in this case, it's just because he was filled with shitty bad ideas.
>>391445
Mao is a classic example of someone who had success earlier in life with one thing, and then applied that lesson over and over again, regardless of consequences.
You ever meet one of those guys who peaked in high school, and tries to express every problem with a sports analogy? Mao is like that, except what he knew was winning the Chinese Civil War.
And the way he did that was by unleashing people's creative potential, and letting them make decisions without being tied to traditional power bases.
One of the many reasons why the Communists won the civil war, and why the nationalists were fundamentally flawed: Their armies were based on the idea that weapons and power and information were dangerous things to be kept out of the hands of their soldiers, who were a threat to them. You had to be a colonel or so to make any meaningful decision.
Then, in his political campaigns, he enjoyed the same success with the Cultural Revolution, which unlike his totalitarian predecessors, was genuinely a bottom up movement that Mao simply rode, rather then steered or commanded.
That makes shit like this
>>391464
Make sense. Mao's entire experience outside economic affairs was "let ordinary people take initiative at a local level, and give people the tools to do so" and he had nothing but wild success with that.
>>391540
Farm the locusts.
>>392716
True for most rebels/fighters turned leaders.
>>391445
Perhaps, but wasn't Mao genuinely psychotic?
>>392729
>the enjoyed the same success with the Cultural Revolution
are you saying that the cultural revolution was a success?
wow
that is worse than lysenkoism
I did not expect that as a possibility
why is state atheism so bad at this sort of thing?
>>391634
>Implying China has ever been truly communist.
I understand what you are saying, but China, although run by a communist party, has never been truly communist. It has throughout time been a military dictatorship, an authoritarian socialist state, an authoritarian capitalist state, but never a communist state. A communist state is an oxymoron, as communism describes a world without class antagonism, requiring stateless geopolitics to accomplish this.
I am not trying to say that Mao is a pretty cool guy who dindu nothing. I'm just saying the closest China has been to communism was being a revolutionary vehicle for democratic socialism, but that is as close as it got.
IIRC, he was swept up with MUH REVOLUTIONARY SPIRIT.
>with our spirit we can make anything happen!
>produce 100k wheat each or you'll be shot
>every farmer lies about the amount of production so they wont be shot
>shortage of food
>all the food goes to the party, the farmer keeps none because they couldn't meet quota
>all the farmers die
>>394293
>being this guy
you're not in highschool anymore, chap. Picking at word choice doesn't make you cool or smart.
Well the whole idea behind it was that the Europeans (especially Spain and England) were way ahead of China n terms of technology. His idea was to get rid of traditional values in efforts to modernize china. His fatal mistake was that he ordered many of Chinas traditional farmers and forced them into labor in factories accidently starting one of the most deadly famines of all time.
>>394482
>all the food goes to the party
Food was actually being exported during the great leap forward.
>>391464
I hate mao and every dumb fuck western maoist who likes him. I have seen that fat cunt maoist rebel actually defend this shit. it makes my brain sad. i wish his mom would do the right thing an poison his hennessy
>>391697
Honestly it seems like a bit of a Dear Leader situation. If you're located in China proper you're going to keep any critical thoughts of Mao to yourself for your own personal safety.
Any westerner who likes him though is a retard.
>>392897
But Mao really couldn't fight a war all that well either. The Long March was a massive retreat and he only won out against the Nationalists because they'd been having their shit pushed in by the Japanese while Mao and his buddies were jerking off in the mountains.
What he could do was rally people. He knew how to win over loyalty and draw in fanatics. That was the beginning, middle and end of his talents.
>>391445
He wanted to forcibly modernize the country. Russia had previously rushed to modernize and it ended up relatively well for them, and the Qing got fucked repeatedly because they hadn't modernized.
He just had no idea what the fuck he was doing when it came to actually modernizing the country successfully, and he was very very commie - he believed the working class was the answer to everything, and in China that meant peasants.
>>392729
>The Cultural Revolution
>a success
Even the CCP considers it a failure, and they never admit to doing anything wrong.
>>395812
That might have something to do with the fact the guy that was targeted as a secret capitalist roader that was perverting the party from its true Communist goals eventually overcame his exile and took over China as it's effective dictator after Mao's death... and then implemented a bunch of pro-capitalist policies.
The winners write the history books.
He dindu nothin.
Only Muslims kill people.
>>395847
>being this much of a commie
The problem with Mao and his retarded ideas is that no one had the balls to call him out of it. Opposing Mao in China during that time was almost as bad as being publicy racist in modern day Sweden or Germany, it meant not only social and political death, but sometimes actual death.
The craziest shit that resulted from that was when the Chinese started to worship mangoes because Mao touched them. People went so out of the way to signal their approval of the "Paramound leader" that this kind of thing, unthinkable in Chinese society a few decades before, became commonplace. It's like fathers presenting their daughters to thugs in order to not be considered racist.
>>395691
It honestly doesn't even make sense for most Westerners to be Maoists. It's an explicit Third-Worldist ideology, meaning it's inherently against the developed West (be it capitalist or otherwise).
From my experience, Maoism it's usually championed not by people who truly believe in the ideology, but glorified LARPers and various identity politics crusaders who want to call themselves communist without associating with movement's whose focus is actually on class.
to be honest, without the great famine & the 1 child rule how fucking overcrowded would china be.
india 2.0 ?
>>395847
>The winners write the history books.
One of the greatest myths about history ever.
Marxists write the history books.
>>396165
Shit i'm stupid, china already has a bigger population than india.
>>396180
It has less population density though.
142 per km2 vs 390
>>392725
>It wasn't even because of communism
>it was shitty bad ideas
okay junior
>>396165
>>396208
imagine if the Taiping rebellion didn't happen?
I'm sure the densities are much closer than that in the east of China where the people actually live
>>396146
>One dentist in a small village, who dared to compare a touring mango to a sweet potato was put on trial for malicious slander and executed.
>>391634
It wasn't a problem with communism, but with Maoism, and its emphasis on the peasant as opposed to urban workers. Compare it to Russia, where they hated peasants because they were all kulaks who didn't want to collectivise.
>>394520
Yeah you're right.
>>391464
>>391471
>>391485
>>391504
>>391697
>>392729
>>395691
I hope you're all elementary school students that don't understand that Wikipedia is not a fucking credible source.
The Private Life of Chairman Mao was discredited like the day it came out as the work of some immigrant trying to cash in on useful idiots in America.
>>396878
>t. internet communist marxist
Got a good academic citation that proves it wasn't the case?
>>391445
Mao is the George Lucas of China
No one questioned him becuase they feared and revered him.
Peasents loved the idea too. They thought that they could overtake the British. Once the ball got going, it was hard for Mao to admit to them all that he fucked up.
>>396961
>t. elementary school student
Nice fallacy, numbnuts, but it doesn't work like that. Provide a real source.
>>396979
The Private Life of Chairman Mao
Written by Mao's personal physician
>>391445
>they still haven't read Mobo Gao
>>396984
Jesus Christ, are you actually illiterate?
>>396979
so people didn't die during the great leap forward
ok thanks random internet anon.
>>396988
Literally no historian, not even mainland Chinese pro-communist historian refutes that Li Zhisui was Mao's personal physician for many years and is a first hand eyewitness account to Mao's life.
How can you get any more credible than this?
>>396984
Even wikipedia says it's bullshit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Private_Life_of_Chairman_Mao#Criticism
>As soon as the book was published, it received criticism from those who argued that it provided an inaccurate picture of Mao. A statement protesting that many of the claims made in Li's book were false was issued soon after its publication, signed by 150 people who had personally known or worked with Mao, including Wang Dongxing, Li Yinqiao and Ye Zilong.[15]
>They argued that Li did not only not know Mao very well, but that he presented an inaccurate picture of him in his book.[16] The trio attack Li's claim that he had been Mao's personal physician in 1954, instead presenting copies of a document from Mao's medical record showing that Li only took on the responsibility for caring for Mao on 3 June 1957. Wu goes on to argue that whilst much of Li's memoir is devoted to talking about Mao in the period between 1954 and 1957, Li was not his general practitioner during this period, and therefore would not have had access to the personal information that he claimed.
>Another Chinese critic of Li's work was Qi Benyu, who was formerly a member of the Cultural Revolution radicals in Beijing. Qi had been arrested and imprisoned at Mao's order in 1968, subsequently spending the next eighteen years in prison. Despite his persecution at the hand of Mao however, Qi criticised Li's portrayal of the Chinese leader, claiming that "aside from his account of the support-the-left activities (zhi zuo) in which he [Li] personally participated, most of the Cultural Revolution part of his memoirs consists of stuff gleaned from newspapers, journals and other people's writings. To make Western readers believe that he had access to core secrets, Li fabricated scenarios, resulting in countless errors in his memoirs."[20]
>>396997
Don't bother arguing with some greasy internet maoist.
>>396990
>so people didn't die during the great leap forward
What is wrong with you people?
>>397003
WREKT
>>397008
???
>>397003
>>Another Chinese critic of Li's work was Qi Benyu, who was formerly a member of the Cultural Revolution radicals in Beijing.
Wow, a crazy paramilitary guy who used to literally worship Mao, dearly a very reliable source.
>people claiming USSR to have been an example of successful industrialisation
Extrapolate, pls. How does Imperial Russia compare in this context of (relative levels of) industrialisation and how can that of USSR be said to have been successful when the 20th century made the cap between the West and the Commieblock appareant?
Sry for slight offtopic.
>>397024
Keep reading you fuckwit.
>Qi had been arrested and imprisoned at Mao's order in 1968, subsequently spending the next eighteen years in prison.
>Even this guy said Li was full of shit, and he's not the only one
>"BUT IT'S NOT WHAT I WANT TO BELIEVE WHAAA"
Kill yourself.
>>397038
>what is Stockholm syndrome
>what is nostalgia
>what is rose-tinted glasses
>>397003
>I hope you're all elementary school students that don't understand that Wikipedia is not a fucking credible source.
>>397067
I'm glad you can follow along. Now read it all again:
>post shit from wikipedia that is at the very least not credibly sourced
>someone points this out
>you fly immediately into ad (assumed) hominem, push the burden of proof on them
>uses your own source to show show your source is dubious: "even wikipedia says it's bullshit"
>even
So you do see the fucking problem now? Is it seeping in a little? Think on your sins while I sleep, little one.
>>397085
That doesn't seem to hold up.
Try posting a proper source.
>>397067
I hope you understand this is 4chan (where poster shit on each other) and not an actual academic platform or forum.
>>395812
It was somewhat of a success for Mao. He wanted to purge moderates/"capitalist roaders" and he did successfully. He also successfully incited the people (he was just a little too successful at this part). Then again the horrors of the Cultural Revolution arguably directly led to Deng Xiaoping's rise to power and the whole Gang of Four dealio
>>396985
BASED response
checkout Dongping Han. he wrote about rural areas in the cultural revolution.
Everyone focuses on what happened to the children of party elites during the cultural revolution. This is the "scar" literature western readers love so much. But they are literally less than one percent of China's population. The voice of the rural people and workers is never heard. They don't talk about the democratization of the workplace, the expansion of social services such as education and healthcare and the increase in production in the cultural revolution. I do have to admit 66-67 were tumultuous years but by 1970-1976 China was doing pretty good, considering the were practicing the closest a nation has ever gotten to full commmunism.
Shit has gotten worse now
http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/stories/90-of-chinese-peasants-live-as-they-did-40-years-ago.html
This is the obvious effect of removing barefoot doctors, dismantling rural education and privatizing rural small industry.
Oh the maoists arrived
>>398427
>by 1970-1976 China was doing pretty good
>Shit has gotten worse now
>as-they-did-40-years-ago.html
>1976 was 40 years ago
>while completely ignoring the massive amounts of rural people who have moved to cities
All for the low, low price of 1% of your billion person population! What a fucking joke.
Communism: not even once
>>398452
read the article it talks about how shit has gotten worse.
Rural people who move to the city aren't living a glorious capitalist life. Their lives suck.
For the average Chinese, reform has brought no benefits.
If they would've continued being Maoist. China would have developed developed a real economy based on rising living conditions for all, instead of a speculation fueled real estate market created by the country's elite selling the labor of the poor to foreigners.
>>398542
How's the weather in Beijing? I hear the pollution is awful so I hope you have good lungs, comrade.
>>398542
>read the article it talks about how shit has gotten worse.
uh huh sure
>Their quality of life–conditions of medical care and how their children go to school haven’t really changed.
>0% of the peasants in our countryside are as they were in the past, not dying in hospitals, dying in their homes
are you fucking serious? Rural kids have it so rough, they have to walk 1.5 miles to school, just like they did 40 years ago. Cry me a fucking river.
>Rural people who move to the city aren't living a glorious capitalist life.
>i don't know what hukou is
>If they would've continued being Maoist. China would have developed developed a real economy based on rising living conditions for all
No, it would probably have continued to be a murderous shithole. I'd love to talk to you about it if you weren't such a pathetic liar and had actually read the article you suggested I read.
> Gommunism
>know a chinese guy who grew up during cultural revolution
>turns 18 after finishing school, sent to work on farm
>farm is purely sweet potato, all they can eat is sweet potato
>roast sp, sp soup, sp mousse, etc.
>he loses more than half his body weight after a year when he returns home
>cannot eat sweet potato anymore. gets triggered hard
glorious nation
>>391464
this was without his worst idea
>>397026
The short answer to your question is that during the Great Depression, the USSR's economy was doing very well for itself. So, well in fact, that even some Americans and other westerners decided to emigrate there for work and business contracts with the state.
>>396165
The reason for the huge population was that moa wanted to start WW3 and wanted allot of troops to survive the war because nukes were likely to be dropped and kill a massive amount of people the one child rule was introduced to stop overpopulation
This came with some other problems as they prefer male children be born which has result in a massive gender imbalance they also recently lifted the policy to so they'd have enough people to pay for the social programs
china may also be facing problems with feeding their population as desertification and industrialized ruin the water supplies and arable land
"Mao would request 10-15 year old girls to deflower"
>>398427
the thing about the cultural revolution is that it destroyed a large part of the Chinese identity.
The democratization of the workplace yes that seems like a pretty good thing and he reason everyone brings up the scars of the cultural revolution was because of how unnecessary it was to destroy all that culture to establish those program
the industrialism even if it was horribly mismanaged still allows considerable increase in industrial output
>>391464
>Trusting in peasants
>>392697
Uh, you dont get to bring friends.
>>398452
People generally didn't die in the cultural revolution. It's remembered negatively because it was stressful, like McCarthyism, not because people were dying en mass.
>>399035
Mao knew what's up.
I am not trying to deny the death toll, or the general idiocy of Mao, but it seems to have actually worked, at least on the health care level (pic related).
I wish I could find something simillar for the USSR in the 30's. I wonder about the impact of collectivisation on industry and life expectancy.
>>394520
Dude, words are what we base our discussion on. Flawd choice of words leads to misunderstandings which in turn lead to bad vibes.
>>399644
Other than the mass lynchings.
And the struggle sessions.
And the millions of people starved to death.
I mean yeah, the starving millions had been going on prior to the Cultural Revolution and continued after it so I guess you could say that it's not that they didn't die IN or DURING the cultural revolution but rather did not die specifically because of it, but a lot of people did die because of it. Maybe not "Mass murder of the entire province of Xinchonchang" level however.
>>399035
Kim Il-Sung did the same thing. They had to take classes specifically on his sexual quirks.
>>400115
>Other than the mass lynchings.
Mass lynchings?
>And the struggle sessions.
People don't die in struggle sessions. The point is peer pressure, not murder. If they wanted to kill you they'd kill you. No point in brainwashing a corpse.
>And the millions of people starved to death.
What? Now you're either trolling or don't know what you're talking about. You are mixing up the Great Leap Forward with the Cultural Revolution. They are different events that happened at different times.
>>398586
>Rural kids have it so rough, they have to walk 1.5 miles to school, just like they did 40 years ago
no they didn't they shut down the schools that were opened during the cultural revolution.
>i don't know what hukou is
that systems sucks, but it wouldn't stop foxconn workers from jumping to their deaths. in the cultural revolution people could actually find well paying jobs in the rural industry.
>No, it would probably have continued to be a murderous shithole
>he thinks china is not a murderous shithole. Crime was actually lower in the cultural revolution.
>>399878
See table 1: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2546027/?page=1
>>400223
>I think having a school less than 2 miles away is a hardship
>I'm not smart enough to realize the hukou system is why rural Chinese who moved to urban centers are not doing as well as they could be
>I don't count crime if it's perpetrated by the gov't
good talk. nope
>>400179
>You are mixing up the Great Leap
the anon he replied to was specifically talking about the cultural revolution, pretending it was "like mccarthyism"
>>391445
China didn't have enough tears and suffering. He brought those two key Chinese concepts back.
>>396236
That should be updated.
Africa hit 1.2 billion. They are catching India.
>>400625
>a continent is the same as a subcontinent is the same as a country is the same as a nation state is the same as the people of the nation state is the same as people controlled by a single polity is the same as africa
>>398551
He is critizing the Chinese CCP.
Also Beijing air pollution is better than 13 Indian cities as of 2015.
>>400671
that has more to do with Indian cities not being built from the ground up to handle the huge population pressures that they entail
>>400687
>that has more to do with Indian cities not being built from the ground up to handle the huge population pressures that they entail
maybe that has to do with India not having a social systems in place to try to provide infrastructure for its people.
>>400671
I am criticizing the CCP. capitalist make dumb assumptions thinking that the modern day CCP is anything like the CCP of Mao.
>>400473
>not providing education to rural children is trivial.
schools are more than 2 miles away in areas with no roads or buses. getting to school is a hardship, students also have to pay for school. point is. if you are born in rural china your life is going to suck.
>I'm not smart enough to realize the hukou system is why rural Chinese who moved to urban centers are not doing as well as they could be
the hukou system is one problem of the many faced by the rural Chinese
>I don't count crime if it's perpetrated by the gov't
How many wars has China had since 1949? How many democratically elected governments has Mao overthrown, how many religious terrorist breeding middle east states did Mao support?
I don't know what your politics are but can you agree that U.S foreign policy has been a disaster, especially funding the Islamist insurgency in Afghanistan and continued support for the gulf regimes and Israel combined with the overthrow of various democratically elected governments.
>>400822
yes china has social systems in place that listen to it's people and resolve all problems.
>>400671
>Also Beijing air pollution is better than 13 Indian cities as of 2015.
This is bullshit.
OVERALL pollution is better in Beijing, but not air pollution.
>>400822
>schools are more than 2 miles away
>except not according to the article I linked, begged people to read, and am now citing
good talk. nope
