Does punk subculture just allow participants to engage in alternative forms of cultural expression, or does it provide participants with the tools to actively resist political and cultural hegemony?
It was basically just chav culture that we look back on with nostalgia. Poor northerners trying to look tough and have some sense of identity while the privileged ones in London counted their dosh and laughed from afar.
"PUNK" IS A SUBCULTURE OF ESCAPISM; THE "PUNK", MUCH LIKE THE "ANARCHIST", IS MOTIVATED BY HATE, AND COMPELLED BY ATTACHMENT, THUS THE "PUNK", IN ITS FAILED ATTEMPT TO DESTROY THAT WHICH IT HATES, IT FALLS INTO DEEPER IMMERSION, AND ULTIMATE ABSORPTION INTO THAT WHICH IT HATES; INTO THAT WHICH MADE IT WHAT IT IS.
THE "PUNK" IS NOT A REBEL, BUT A REVOLTER; IT SEEKS AN ALTERNATE REALITY, NOT AN ALTERNATIVE ONE; IT WANTS TO RESHAPE REALITY TO FIT ITS OWN MATERIALISTIC, PESSIMISTIC, AND NIHILISTIC, SELF, AND FOR THIS VERY REASON, "PUNK" SENTIMENTS WITHIN SOCIETY, ARE EXPLOITED BY THOSE IN POWER TO DIVERT AUTHENTIC REVOLUTIONARY AND REBELLIOUS FORCES, AND NEUTER THEM.
As a former punk I would say the former, and that it's bloody good enough.
>>374562
Can you do us all a favor and stop writing your posts like a huge fucking faggot? Thanks. Literally no one wants to read capslock spam from pseud tripfags.
Neither
>>374507
>does it provide participants with the tools to actively resist political and cultural hegemony?
No. One of the most widely-held, yet blatantly ridiculous, concepts current championed by modern liberalism is that you can somehow defeat corporatism (or whatever other hegemony is anti-flavour of the month) by forming a small group, shutting your eyes, covering your ears and screaming LA LA LA LA NOT LISTENING. Obviously the hegemony, by definition, continues to hold sway over the majority of the population. You have achieved nothing.
>>374980
...while still commodifying said subculture, might I add.
Post-punk subculture > Punk subculture
>>374980
If le self aware anti-liberal joined forces with le rational moderate and le ebin tolerance lib, they'd make an unstoppable team of faggotry
Depends on what kind of punk we're talking about. The faggots that think Ramones, Green Day, & Sex Pistols are be all end all of punk are typical capitalist pawns
Crust Punks have been twisted into having a very fascist attitude although theyd swear the opposite, mainly because theyre incredibly uneducated about what their favorite political buzzwords mean
skinheads either dont care about politics or are full on /pol/
90s style brodude hardcore people are basically the white equivalent of rap fans
Powerviolence fans seem the most level headed to me, actually discussing real issues while not being up their ass with that message > music quality thing crusties harp on about
No, it's just cool music, and that's how it's always been. I think I can think of more conservative punk musicians than any other genre of rock, people only think of it as some sort of left-wing radical political extension of antifa because of its shitty modern fanbase and because of a few isolated individuals that were especially noisy about their politics.
>>374507
PUNKS DEAD PUNK
>>374599
I agree
>>374507
After nearly 40 years, punk can mean pretty much anything at this point.
Punk aint no religious cult. (but there are plenty of them out there. vegans/straightedge/nazi) etc
>>376212
check out thehardest times. You'd like it. It's basically the onion for aging and jaded ex punks that have probably grown up to be doctors and lawyers someday.
>>374562
This.
>>376020
The fact that post-punk even exists just goes to show that punk accomplished nothing except for some unfortunate drug overdoses.
The punk ethos is mostly about not letting things stand in the way of you expressing yourself. Can only play a few chords? Do them over-and-over and loudly. Can't afford rent to start a traditional venue? Host a show in your basement. Can't afford to start a magazine? Distribute a zine. Etc. Punk was saying economic and cultural boundaries don't confine and define you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN6kCgMUjFw
Punk is an imagined community
>>380507
Except we got drunk as fuck, and danced or moshed with our fellows at various basement shows, and other venues, while mostly being our own sort of weird. The punk community has always been split--fuck off Nazi punks--but only so much. We've been liberal insofar as liberalism means doing and dressing however the fuck you want, and ignoring the status quo.
>>374562
You're right on the punk escapism and maybe the hate part, but I'm confused by what you mean by seeking an alternate reality instead of an alternative one; maybe contemporary punk gives that vibe because of reasons explained below.
>>380575
Punk is too giant of an umbrella nowadays.
Usually when people think of punk, they think of the classic Ramones/Sex Pistols punk that was more about rebelling against the establishment but not exactly 100% anarchist; or like hardcore punk like Dead Kennedys/Black Flag that was more about transgressing what people are usually comfortable with (and also against capitalism), and GG Allin types that uses violence as an art. People also often include the terribly boring Straight Edge movement that was a response to the punk subculture.
But punk is way too big of a label nowadays, it's as meaningless as "electronic" or "indie". Other stuff includes actual emo like Rites of Spring (who hates the label), Cap'n Jazz, Mineral, American Football, which went on to spawn the pop version of "emo" most people know nowadays like Green Day, My Chemical Romance, etc. Post-hardcore like Fugazi and Big Black counts of course, and so does post-punk like Swans and Pere Ubu, or new wave like Talking Heads and Blondie, or no-wave like Glenn Branca. There's of course even smaller subgenres but I won't be going into that. Shoegaze, math rock, post-rock, even some hip-hop have relations to the wide punk "movement" that dominated most of the underground music scene, and leaked into the mainstream. (Waka Flocka Flame claimed to have invented "punk rap" despite it not really being a thing)
Punk is a meaningless label because of how broad it is, but an underlying element to it was always a rebellious attitude towards social norms. Whether there was any real political/cultural resistance and/or action to it, that depends on the artist/individual.
>>380843
Maybe maybe. Punk music might be all over the place, but I hope some punk culture remains. We really did gather in basements, and we really did have our own vastly different notions of fashion. I personally love music of all sorts, but if someone is grinding out fast music with a beat you have to read into it... well, that's the shit I like to dance to.
>>380878
I go to basement shows too, but you can't deny that just by looking at the crowd you see a sea of different subcultures
One time I saw a pair of lesbians right in front of me just make out as they moshed and it was a bit awkward for me because it's kinda hard not to bump into them but at the same time I'm trying to keep my distance because it seemed like an intimate moment
>>380924
Ha! Fair enough. That's pretty much punk, though, right? Riot Girl and all that. Either way, just dance, and fuck it all.
>>380843
And it all ignighted with some kinky brits and a beach boys wannabes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6siGKxcKol0
This song kicks ass though.
>>374562
Punk is just bad
>>383546
say that to my face punk
>>384208
That doesn't answer the question about the punk movement
>>380575
>ignoring the status quo
I guess if you count being an impoverished, borderline-alcoholic wage slave ignoring the status quo, then yeah. Punks don't realize that being cynical about something doesn't mean that you're not doing it.
Our society as it exists cannot survive without a lower class, and being a punk basically means resigning yourself to being poor and strung-out all the time. It's pathetic and can barely sustain itself through drug use and community.
>>374507
It's idealization of the poor/plebs taken to a new modern level
Being a punk is basically just a way to continue being a huge pussy for your entire life.
>b-but i get in street fights and get blowjobs from groupies
The only "punks" I can respect are people who don't see themselves as punks. I can understand being an alcoholic street urchin if you've been exiled by your family or ran away from home, but most punks are just nostalgic and incapable of self-criticism. It's like a mid-life crisis for kids. People who become punks can't handle the "phoniness" of daily life in the West, knowing that you work a meaningless job just to go home and have meaningless relationships that revolve around meaningless entertainment. Being a degenerate, however, does nothing change this and it's an abandonment of all of the people who can't afford the luxury of being the professional equivalent of a flaming plastic bag filled with dog shit.
This thread made me realize how much I hate punk. Thanks OP. You learn something new every day.
There were a handful of noteworthy bands and a ton of bad imitators
>>374507
Literally the original first world problems
>>384864
this
>>384864
Agreed
>>374507
as an OG American punk, i offer my perspective:
it was just a thing to do.. get some instruments, learn a few chords and write some songs.. organize some shows with your friends and have fun. i don't think any of us ever expected it to last beyond high school.
now it's just some co-opted commercial endeavor
some kids tried to make it into a political thing or a life-style thing, but it was really not either for most of us. most of the kids i knew came from upper middle class homes
>>376212
>skinheads either dont care about politics or are full on /pol/
As a skinhead myself, can say this isn't true
There are the Trads (traditionals, no politics involed)
Nazis
Right wing
Left wing
SHARPS (Skinheads against racial prejudice)
RASH (red anarchist communist skinheads)
And they all hate eachother and will fight eachother, and all of them but the trads and right wingers tend to be enormous faggots
>>384418
you're right, I'll try to answer.
the question has a too narrow choice: punk has been both the possibilities and even more.
corporate media puppets and true proletarian poets; tool of resistance and tool of oppression; a way to distinguish or a way to conform. and so on.
even at the beginning, there was art school rich kids and tough factory workers. Even in the same band (see the Clash).
If anything, punk has somewhat promoted the mixing of people from different backgrounds and social classes; and also has pushed people to create 'art' almost without training
I don't understand punk as a subculture. For something that seems to champion individualism and non-conformism, it seems to me that the only way to be a part of it would be to just do your own damn thing as you see fit.
