>Eurocentric history
What's /his/' opinion on this? "Just reality dude" or "muh feels say no bro"
Anti-Eurocentrism isn't about denying Europe's position in the world, it is more about moving further away from whiggish European exceptionalist narrativesand also about looking at events in a broader Eurasian and global context.
I think it gives Europeans more agency tbqh, instead of just being inheritors of some sort of driving cultural elan, there they are, literally whos cast out on the fringes of the major Eurasian trade spheres and they end up making a go of it and end up conquering vast swathes of the rest of the world. Obviously that's overly simple but its late and I can't be fucked making a proper post.
>>348931
>more about moving further away from whiggish European exceptionalist narratives
But that's reality
>>350036
Idiot
>>350048
Nice contribution my intellectual friend
>>348572
Needham. Go read him.
>>348572
Europe has touched everything, so of course all history will lead to them at some point. I honestly hate when people compare random tribe in North America #9572 to Spain or Britain. That said, it does not mean the rest isn't worth knowing, and just because Europe has had the most influence, it does not mean that others have not. I mean, China and shit, right? We just need to acknowledge both that some nations have been more critical to world history than others, but that that is okay.
>>348572
I find it very naive that people being educated in a western country complain that their education is Eurocentric. As if people being educated in China aren't getting a Sinocentric education.
>>351391
Pretty sure Sinocentrism is only recently making a resurgence. Most Asian countries have discarded such a thing, seeing as how they are intelligent and realize that it no longer applies (for now that is)
>>351391
>it's okay to fuck up history courses because other people fuck them up too
What kind of argument is that?
>>351409
Neo Mandate of Heaven when?
>>351421
What are you even talking about? Every country/group naturally emphasizes itself and its own role. The fact that European countries do that is actually the least fucked up example because European countries have made by far the largest contribution to history in the last few centuries.
>>351421
>What kind of argument is that?
One that serves the refutation of "Western people are bad, the rest is great!"
>>351429
It's funny, I specialize in East Asian history, and I always hear these critiques of Western history from pampered white kids who know fucking nothing about other cultures except favorable stereotypes.
>>351429
>to "refute" misinformed opinion I don't seek a rational, nuanced synthesis but instead join the opposing ideological camp
>mfw a filthy 鬼佬 says Europenises have culture or have contributed to history near me
If you aren't Han
Git
o
n
e
>>351473
He's probably American. Their favorite argument is "b-but other people do bad things too"
>>351481
forgot my pic
I think it's foolish to assume any culture is impartial in our view of history. For the same reason we attempt neutrality in science, we should try to filter our cognitive biases in studying human history - because history should first and foremost be about truth. The histories of Europe, the Americas and Australia should not be whitewashed in order to appease white racists with a persecution complex and a misplaced sense of guilt who get triggered by the idea that their ancestors were violent and exploitative sometimes.
Having said that, supporting ridiculous shit like Afrocentrism or the Noble Savage archetype is not a realistic way to counter Eurocentrism. Nor should fighting Eurocentrism mean every country has to adopt the paradigms of American-centric social justice. It is important to recognize that virtually all groups act in their own self-interest and people in the past obviously committed atrocities that were seen as acceptable - even encouraged - within the moral framework of the time. Our selective condemnation of European colonialists over say, the Mongol invasions, is mostly a matter of recency and locality, not some gigantic conspiracy to keep the white master race feeble.
>>351391
This is the fucking definition of "ad hominem tu quoque". We shouldn't skirt our eyes over brutality in China in order to consistently forsake Western ones. We should apply the same criticism of egocentric biases to other cultures that we do our own, and there are plenty of historians who do this with countries like the Soviet Union, despite the right-wing insistence that everyone in the academic world is against them.
My problem with Eurocentrism is that it's obviously ideologically motivated by stormfags and patriotards, just like denial of the Holodomor among Stalinists, or denial of Japanese war crimes by nippon nationalists. Science and history should not be beholden to political bullshit.
>>351513
>My problem with Eurocentrism is that it's obviously ideologically motivated by stormfags and patriotards
Unplug from that media bullshit. It's because we're European people living in a European culture and are naturally more interested in ourselves than foreign or distant groups we have nothing in common with. There's nothing sinister or political about it.
>>351426
>Every country/group naturally emphasizes itself and its own role
The fact that cognitive biases are "natural" doesn't change that they're an impediment to historical accuracy.
>The fact that European countries do that is actually the least fucked up example because European countries have made by far the largest contribution to history in the last few centuries.
You're not your ancestors, but it's pretty clear you want to identify with their achievements, and thus make excuses for their wrongdoings. Your mumbling attempt to gloss over colonialism with technological innovation is laughable. I think most groups would rather have a sense of autonomy and ownership of their native land even if it left them behind the rest of the world in development. No reason they couldn't just voluntarily trade for shit they wanted; it's what the Maoris did.
>>351529
I didn't say it was sinister, I said it was political, and it clearly is by how emotional you're getting and your rambling about "muh liberal media".
Humans are natural beings. Everything we do is natural, from building skyscrapers, to colonialism, to whining about colonialism. Trying to smear any attempt at reflective historical analysis as "unnatural" is just another part of your emotive language games. We all know "media bullshit" is codeword for "the Jews", you're not fooling anyone faggot.
>>351539
Who was talking about colonialism? We are talking about educating humans about human history.
>>351539
Aside from being the edgiest thing ever put to type, this is probably the most unfocused thing I've ever read. You're talking about colonialism, the barter system, and some kind of Utopian idea that there is a sterile, neutral unbiased curriculum to teach. Rewrite that with more clarity.
>>351551
Colonialism is a pretty important part of human history, especially European history. Don't play dumb with me.
>>351548
Nobody said liberal media, I said your opinion on history is being informed by some kind of agenda to fight "stormfags" and "patriotards". You're all over the place here man, you need to write better and read more carefully instead of just sperging out about things you don't like.
>>351569
>Aside from being the edgiest thing ever put to type
Sure it is, bro. It's not like you just label opposing POVs as edgy in order to drive people away from associating with them.
>You're talking about colonialism, the barter system
Trade and colonies are related. Who knew. How unfocused and schizophrenic I am. My oh my.
>and some kind of Utopian idea that there is a sterile, neutral unbiased curriculum to teach
Striving for objectivity doesn't mean you think it's something that can be reached completely, but that doesn't bother scientists and it shouldn't bother historians. He seems to think the "natural" alternative is a nationalist-centric history, yet nationalism itself and the predominance of the nation state are relatively new. I find it ironic that you faggots whine about postmodern bullshit but default to "HISTORY IS SUBJECTIVE, MUH NATURAL EGOCENTRISM, NO SUCH THING AS TRUTH" as soon as European history is mentioned.
>>351581
>Nobody said liberal media
No, they just innocently whined about the anti-white media that's persecuting them and trying to purge historical studies of their precious biases. I can put two and two together.
>I said your opinion on history is being informed by some kind of agenda to fight "stormfags" and "patriotards".
I complained about Soviet, Chinese and Japanese denialism too, but you mysteriously gloss over this point. Hmmm.
>>351473
>implying saying that Europe is good is the same as saying only Europe is good
Western civilisation is the only one that's alive today, and it dominates the entire planet. So I'd say it's pretty fucking relevant.
>>351616
>you faggots whine about postmodern bullshit but default to "HISTORY IS SUBJECTIVE, MUH NATURAL EGOCENTRISM, NO SUCH THING AS TRUTH" as soon as European history is mentioned.
That's an impressive claim you have there, that these are the same people disagreeing with you now. You can, of course, substantiate it, right?
>>351513
>The histories of Europe, the Americas and Australia should not be whitewashed
>Non-White Australian history
>Having any value whatsoever
Good luck with that
Europeans learn European history in school. At higher levels of education, they are taught about other countries more in depth.But most people don't go to uni for history
>>352728
Anti-Eurocentrists are don't deny the ascendency of Europe though, except where they would be more correctly viewed as other ethnocentrists.
>>348572
Eurocentrism is obviously a skewed perspective, which doesn't do anyone any good. That's not the point of history.
>>348931
>Anti-Eurocentrism isn't about denying Europe's position in the world, it is more about moving further away from whiggish European exceptionalist narrativesand also about looking at events in a broader Eurasian and global context.
Basically this.
>go to school overseas
>9th grade history is asian studies
>cram the sub continent, china, SEA, and Japan and Korean history into a single year
>nothing but a miserable list of names and dates with no context
It's a big bite man. Not to mention we're in the western world, you can't be that baffled by historical selection bias.
>>348572
>>348931
Listen you self-hating/anti-euro keks, there is limited time in education ESPECIALLY for history since it's so vast, so the only thing that is only rational and reasonable to cover are the histories of our people and the culture that build the societies we live in the West- which is mostly European culture.
That is why in North America you also learn of Native Americans because they too took part in the creation of our current societies.
Some dumbass oongaboonga tribe in Middle Africa has nothing to do with our society as they never had impact, thus they are completely unnecessary.
Also Europe invented most important things we use to day, that only leads to that.
>>352872
:^)
>>352879
>no response
>"I better post a le meme sarcastic dorrito-nose smiley face man"
Cunt
>>352784
>Non-White Australian history
>Having any value whatsoever
Never said this, since Aboriginal Australia wasn't really history, it was prehistory.
>>352760
Not really, but taking one line I can't substantiate doesn't discredit everything else I said, especially their disingenuous use of the spotlight fallacy to highlight my opposition to right wing revisionism while ignoring my complains about similar communist pseudohistory. I grant you it's possible, but I'd be very surprised if the same people reacted so nonchalantly to claims of subjectivity regarding concepts like morality and intelligence.
>>352906
Well then it was silly to complained about the history of Australia being "whitewashed"
>>352906
>implying I'm trying to discredit everything you said
Assumptions, nigger
>>352929
>By whitewashed, I meant the old meaning.
I guess this is a bit unclear. I meant it figuratively as in "to paint over" or "cover up". It wasn't a reference to white people specifically.
>>352890
What is there to respond to? My post was replied to but none of the actual content was addressed at all, completely misrepresented even; your post was just a vehicle to cry about pinkos.
>>350036
but what about the developments in astronomy, mathematics, engineering, etc. made outside of europe in western africa, the middle east, and east asia when europe was a massive shithole after the fall of the Roman Empire. of course europe has it's place but you're ignoring a significant amount of important human history by saying
>whiggish European exceptionalist narratives
are reality
>what about the developments in astronomy, mathematics, engineering, etc. made outside of europe in western africa, the middle east, and east asia
1. They don't exist
2. When they exist, they're more than 1 000 years old.
>>353038
>east asia
China: Discover shit, barely tell anyone, it dies
India: Discover shit, get raided by Muhammadans, shit gets burned, women hauled off to be rape slaves, rediscover shit, get raided by the spawn of the raped women, shit gets burned again
>>353053
There have been a number of prominent mathematicians from the East over the last 500 years
I can list em if you want
>>351513
>within the moral framework of the time
There were plenty of people of the time that saw it highly amoral. Wealthy fuckers in power never care about morals when it comes between them and more money and power.
>>353204
>China: Discover shit, barely tell anyone, it dies
Japan, Korea, Vietnam, and to a certain extent, Tibet?
>>353638
I think he's been suckered by the Gavin Menzies meme
>>350036
OK, cool. If you accept the whiggish European exceptionalist narrative, then you have to accept that European Exceptionalism is bad because it's the mark of a barbarous and backwards people, and great liberal reformers showed us the way towards civilization.
In other words, go hang out with the "It's 2015" crowd.
The reason why European POV takes precedence is because history flowed into a Europe dominant world society (in hindsight, which is what history is). By the modern era, at least by the time of colonialism, Europe became the end point of science, technology, philosophy, politics, military, and economy, which was then redistributed to the rest of the world to varying effects.
The histories of other areas are generally split into two groups: 1) Those of little consequence at the world scale until Europe made contact with them (Southern Africa, Americas), making them more of a curiosity than a local point of progression; 2) those that had consequence that is mainly measured by their interaction with Europe, possibly being more advanced at a time, but was surpassed beyond their contribution (Middle East, East Asia).
We can for example look at the philosophies of ancient India and find valuable insight, but that insight likely had only a small effect on how the modern world was built and in giving it special value after the fact, we are looking at it while in an European set of mind or academic tradition.
>>353038
The Middle East's developments were based on the Greeks/Romans.
>>353685
>that European Exceptionalism is bad because it's the mark of a barbarous and backwards people
I'm not following
>>353710
Also, not to sound like a stormfag, a lot of fussing over this issue can be boiled down to people getting really butthurt that they can undo Europe's world dominance. There's no undo button, no alternate universes. Everything that has happened will affect what will happen in the future. You live once, then you die forever. It's the same with humanity and its civilizations. To demonize how the world was built and how that affects on going forward is just struggling to accept the world for what it is (pure resentment) and is ultimately a waste of time and intellect.
>>353725
Basically it's just 19 year-olds taking 101 classes from eccentric professors and experiencing white guilt for the first time.
>>348572
Europe in,fluenced all the world
China or the Mayas didn't do shit oputside of their region
A war causing thousands of dead between France and England (HYW) had more impact on the world than a war causing millions of dead in China (Taiping Rebellion)
So yeah, history is euro-centric
Trying to deny that by lowering the standard to give some importance to irrelevant parts of the world is similar bullshit to affirmative action.
>>353725
>To demonize how the world was built and how that affects on going forward is just struggling to accept the world for what it is (pure resentment) and is ultimately a waste of time and intellect.
If only this was the popular mindset.
>>348572
History should only be Eurocentric after the Early Modern period. Before that Europeans did practically nothing outside of Europe bar Alexander's conquest of the Middle East and the Roman occupation of North Africa. Beyond that I can't argue with Eurocentrism but before plenty stuff happened around the world independent of Europe.
>>353241
Please do.
>>353737
>China didn't do shit oputside of their region
Genghis Khan had a bigger impact on humanity than anyone else.
>>353767
>ignoring all of Christendom
>>351421
You only have so much time to teach students in a history class, so of course focusing on the history of your own people and their surrounding nations in Europe is higher priority than teaching students about 11th century China or something.
>>353848
That's really pointless though. Honestly I think we should have a Human History class to compliment regular History. Does it really matter where agriculture, writing, laws and other fundamentals came from?
>>353873
Yes because no one cares if you cured cancer 30 years ago if you never spread that knowledge.
ITT:
Puny homo sapiens who cant overcome the logarithmic manner in which his brain works.
>>354820
>logarithmic manner in which his brain works?
You mean eyes and ears
>>356040
Something something phenomenology sniff snort ideology d e s u
>>353737
>A war causing thousands of dead between France and England (HYW) had more impact on the world than a war causing millions of dead in China (Taiping Rebellion)
I could tell you China defeating the Xiongnu had a bigger, immediate, impact in the world by shifting Altaic migration patterns westward and making them Middle East/Europe's problem than some shitty Medieval dynastic war.
>>348572
Going beyond Europe is a good thing when you have the time/interest to do so.
But I find it crazy to go beyond it in the Western world. Europe is what shaped and made the Western world (including south america).
given the scarce time and attention most people have for even the most basic and flashy bits of history. It would be a horrible disaster to push aside an eurocentric way of aprouching history when it comes to basic education or popular history.
And yes this will insult achmet, jamal and [insert asian sounding name here]. But at the end of the day the west has dominated the rest and so understanding the european line of development and tought is more efficent/important.
And even when the west falls in the end european history will still be key to understanding the new powers and their poltical/economic/intelectual tradition as all of them are so dependant on western transplants.
>>348572
When I went through school (i'm quite a bit older than most here) basically everything we learned was complete European/Nationalist circlejerking nonsense with very little basis in reality. When you learned of other cultures, it was a very basic (and often very stereotypical/racist) overview.
I grew up in a period called the "History wars" here in Australia, where Neo-Con retards basically made the entire history curriculum complete and utter bullshit. When talking history with friends today I still have to argue against much of the shit we learnt in school.
I mean, my fucking god, we were taught the Stolen Generation was simply a "misguided attempt to educate aboriginals" and "Most benefited from it", It wasn't until University that I learned it was actually planned genocide through Eugenics.
>>353847
Irrelevant at the time
>>356441
And where would Australia be without those noble aboriginal people!?!?
>>353723
First, you said that "whiggish" history was simply reality. Whigs were basically ye olde SJWs. 'Enlightened' elites who pulled people out of barbarity. Their work has continued on today.
Second, a history focused on the worship of power will have to accept current orthodoxy as the only acceptable thought process. Because just as the Europeans on the past's perspective was 'more important' than other peoples because they wielded more power, the perspective of Europeans of the past's perspective is irrelevant compared to our own.
Even if you could bring some sort of time travel device to bring the army of the crusaders to the present, the Belgian armed forces would destroy them in a day.
And more importantly, you can't do that. They're dead, and they have no power. The only people who have power, and relevence, are the people who have that now.
And the people who have that now say we must turn away from European exceptionalism, and embrace multiculturalism. The Europe of the past was racist, misogynist, religiously intolerant, and homophobic. We have nothing to learn from them.
That's your reality.
>>348931
Stopped reading at agency.
>>351314
He was a pro-abiogenesis teethless scientist. What about him?
>>356544
>Second, a history focused on the worship of power will have to accept current orthodoxy as the only acceptable thought process
is this sentence intentionally nonsensical or is your grasp of English just not as good as you think it is?
Europe is perfect, aside from the fact that it has too many anti gun laws. Europe has basically all the art, architecture, music, science, philosophy and so on. And many of the thinkers outside of Europe are of European descent (basically every American except negroes and latinos and Asian-Americans). Europe took civilization to the rest of the world. Picture related. I a lot of respect for Persians, Arabs, Americans, Chinese, Japanese, Koreans and maybe another nationality or two, but Europeans in general have always been at the vanguard of civilization. Unfortunately people don't understand that and keep pushing for unecessary courses on how amazing African architecture is (will post a pic)
>>356565
Here is the African equivalent of a mosque or Church.
>>356565
>Europe is perfect
good christ...
>>356568
And here is the result of European architecture.
Built when the French were in a pretty low point in their history (interwar period)
>>356569
WE WUZ GREEKS N ROMANS
>>356573
African church is way better. what is this megalomaniac nightmare?
if you really want to have a deep comprehension of why Eurocentrism should be put aside, please read Provincializing Europe by Dipesh Chakrabarty
Much of the modern world as we know it was in some way, shape, or form touched by European influence. European history is very much world history. There's not a single part of the globe where European boots didn't touch ground.
I do detest how often other histories are ignored though. Asia and South America have a lot of rich history that's generally ignored all together
>>356573
This was build for a completely irrelevant minor king more than a thousand years before. Simple geometric shapes aren't really impressive anymore once you hit the Middle Ages.
>>356488
How do you think they got relevant?
ME and NA were craddles of civilization sure, but eventually Europe did come to dominate the world both in terms of actual conquest and subjugation and in terms of scientific and cultural developments
being butthurt over it serves no purpose, though it is a shame that a lot of history is glanced over if its not immediately related to europe
>>348572
What does that even mean?
I can understand bias but what does Eurocentric mean?
The only time I've heard this bullshit was in literature classes and it was always (like seriously always) about muh muslims even though we ended up going over muslim shit
Like I just really don't understand what people mean when they say Eurocentric
Like can I be given an example of something being Eurocentric?;
>>352854
Holy crap this
Do you guys understand how difficult it is to learn (let alone teach) a completely different regions history? This is why world history classes tend to focus on early civilization, Europe, and America. Kids actually have some cultural context and understanding of that through their upbringing which makes shit significantly easier to understand.
Back in school half of our chapters concerned our countries hisory so I guess we were x-centric lol.
>>348931
>I think it gives Europeans more agency
THIS MOTHER FUCKER GETS IT
>>352872
>>354710
>>356549
Here's something from you faggots that don't get what he means by 'gives Europeans more agency'
pic related
Anarchist and from what I can tell not particularly Eurocentric take on the rise of European colonialism. If you are white/Europeans and can't see the value in a view like this you were not even white in the first place.
>>352872
What if you're teaching a bunch of black kids. Shouldn't they get to learn about west Africa and Egypt? Isn't that history most relevant to black students?
>>358930
>>358932
Source, please
>>358944
It's Debt: The First 5000 Years
https://libcom.org/files/__Debt__The_First_5_000_Years.pdf
Should only have eurocentric history past 1453.
Before that one should have a focus on the Old World in general and the Middle east in particular.
>>358931
>teaching a bunch of black kids
They wouldn't pay attention regardless of what you teach.
