All things medieval spain ITT
Visigoths.
Kingdom of Asturias.
Al-Andalus.
Reconquista.
Ask and answer, share and discuss.
A ti, Señor glorioso, Padre que en el cielo estás:
Hiciste el cielo y la tierra, al tercero día el mar,
Luna y estrellas hiciste y el sol para calentar,
En Santa María madre fuiste Tu carne a tomar
Y en Belén te apareciste conforme a tu voluntad.
Pastores te glorifican, laudos te van a cantar,
Llegan tres reyes de Arabia que te vienen a adorar
Y que se llaman Melchor y Gaspar y Baltasar,
Oro, incienso y mirra ofrecen con toda su voluntad.
A Jonas salvaste Tu cuando se cayó en el mar,
A Daniel de los leones también te fuiste a salvar,
En Roma la salvación llevaste a San Sebastian,
Liberaste a Santa Susana de aquel falso criminal,
Por nuestra tierra quisiste treinta y dos años andar
Enseñándonos milagros que nunca se han de olvidar
Hiciste vino del agua, de la piedra hiciste pan,
A Lázaro resucitas, porque así es tu voluntad.
Dejaste que te prendieran, luego te dejas llevar
Al Gólgota y en la cruz te dejas crucificar,
De tu cruz a cada lado sendos ladrones están
Entra el uno en paraíso, pero el otro no entrará
Desde la cruz gran milagro hiciste, Padre eternal,
Longinos, el ciego aquél, que no vió la luz jamás
Con su lanza en el costado te hiere y te hace sangrar
Va la sangre lanza abajo, con sus manos hubo de untar,
Alza las manos Longinos, y se las lleva a la faz
Abre los ojos y a todas partes se pone a mirar,
Desde entonces creyó en Ti, se salvó de todo mal
De la tumba en que te ponen supiste resucitar,
A los infiernos bajaste porque fue tu voluntad,
Rompes sus puertas y sacas a muchos sntos de allá
Re de los reyes Tu eres, Padre de la humanidad
En Ti creo, a Ti te adoro con toda mi voluntad
Y a San Pedro ahora le pido que a Ti me ayude a rogar
Por el Cid Campeador, que Dios le guarde del mal.
Y que si hoy nos separamos vivos nos vuelva a juntar.
De la iglesia se salieron y prepáranse a marchar
El Cid a Doña Jimena un abrazo le fue a dar
Y Doña Jimena al Cid la mano le va a besar
No sabía ella que hacerse más que llorar y llorar….
>tfw no Visigothic Spain, Frankish Gaul, Lombard Italy and Vandal North Africa
Was Muslim Spain really more tolerant than Christian Spain?
>>344195
In what year?
>>344202
Lets say up to 900
>>344195
It went through phases, and wasn't all that much better or worse than the best and worst periods of Christian Spain.
>>344210
Considering a good chunk of christian spain was under carolingian rule, those were probably not exactly tolerant. The kingdom of Asturias, though it continued his reconquest against Islam, fought side by side with muslims against other muslims more than once. I don't think there were a lot of muslims living in either region.
A little after this year 900 you have Abderraman III who allowed christians and jews to get positions of power in his court. On the other hand, the peoples of the book were allowed to practice their faith but they had to pay the famous special tax. Plus Abderraman was pretty militant against the christian kingdoms.
>>344210
The worst of Muslim-on-Christian/Jew Persecution began in the 11th century with a series of Caliph's and Shah's placing fiscal and social limitations on Non-Muslims in his lands. Surely someone here knows the name of the first Caliph or Shah which began this- he started the whole 'Christians and Jews cannot ride a horse taller than a Muslim' and 'Church's and Synagogue's cannot be taller than mosque's.' This began a cycle of hate and persecution which more or less was not seen before, and continues until this day.
>>344187
Funny thing, one of my family's surnames come from one grandson of Fruela II.
>>344375
Flórez?
>>344420
Castaneda
>>344422
That sounds toponymic.
>>344422
It seems to come from Castañeda, there are a few towns called like that if I recall correctly(in northern Spain), but it's literal meaning is "chestnut forest".
Why the hell didn't the Muslims push on and conquer the kingdoms beyond the mountains after the initial campaigns in the 8th century? It can't be just as simple as
>they were dirt poor
>didn't want to cross mountains
>lel decadence
>>345915
Because the franks were too powerful.
>>345939
I meant Kingdom of the Astures, the Basques and all of them.
>>345915
They were defeated.
And anyways, the visigoths were unable to rule most of that place too. Romans reported the locals to be the more rustic people in all Iberia and, while Augustus defeated them, they were probably badly integrated even during the greatest times of the roman empire.
Some peoples just cannot be ruled by empires if they don't want to be ruled.
>>343810
So were the Castilians/Aragonese essentially just Visigoths with a dash of Frankish blood thrown in?
>>345915
They were defeated the first time. They didn't make any serious attempt to do so afterwards because presumable the difficulty of conquering such terrain as well as being distracted by the constant instability and civil wars in their own kingdom
>>343810
daily reminder that Almohad Caliphate had the best flag in Iberia
>>346056
>a fucking chess
>>344195
In general it was. There were certain limitations - during the Umayyad rule in Damascus; during the Umayyad government in exile. Things began to get complicated with the fall of the Umayyads; local aristocrats began to compete influence, and create private armies. In the meantime, the Saharan Almoravids invaded Iberia, and remained until its regime was overthrown by self-proclaimed "Monotheists" - the Almohads. This was an abominable government. Religious persecution in mass, political fragmentation, complete political incompetence. During this period, no doubt, were on a par with Spain in the sixteenth century - and, not surprisingly, that's when things definitely got out of control.
>>343810
>you will never go back in time, unite al-Andalus, killing the so-called Reconquista in its grave, and help bring civilization to Europe.
>>346056
>muslims can have cool lions, dragons and castles
>get a chessboard instead
>>344195
When there started being Al-Andalus Caliphates was when things started to look worse for the Spanish Christians and Jews, and also greater reconquista efforts.
>some slav/germanic tribes come in and rule spain for some time
>muslims conquer it
>rule it for almost 700 years, integrate christians and jews into their society, build infrastructure and beautiful architecture
>catholics decide they dont acre
>WE WUZ SPAIN N SHIT
>>346019
Between 80.000 and 300.000 goths entered the peninsula, that already had a population of millions of hispano-romans.
They were all just hispano-romans or unadapted mountain tribes like the basques, with little genetic difference between both groups and none of them having a significant gothic heriatge. The kings of Asturias claimed visigothic heritage for Pelayo once they started expanding into the Meseta, but they were probably just descended from a hillmen chieftain.
>>346174
Charlemagne cared for a while at least.
>>346163
can't*
>>346169
What? No. The reconquista was made specially against the taifas.
>>346181
He was intent on protecting the southern french border, nothing else. Southern Spain wasn't seen as Christian Land until the Conquista actually started.
>>346163
>>346184
They had tones of cool shit unfortunately for some fucking reason everyone thinks they only had boring tier crescents and nothing else.
the pain when playing as a Muslim in CK2 and only having some gay ass moon as a banner.
>Tfw you'll never die in one of Isabel's armies
What's your favourite reconquista related book, /his/?
>>343859
I find it interesting that the Anglo-Saxons were the only Germanic barbarians whose language replaced the people they subjugated. Usually, in Gaul, Iberia, Italy, and North Africa, the Germanics adopted the language of the local Romano population.
>>346204
Using the persians and persianized turks is cheating. Post me arab-berber flags that are on this level and you will impress me.
>>346230
Chufo Llorens wrote "Mar de Fuego" about the high point of countal Barcelona, but I think it's only in spanish.
It's good, though I haven't finished it.
>>346179
There's a mod called When the World Stopped Making Sense for Crusader Kings 2 which is set in 480 AD. I had an absolute blast playing as the Celtic Cantabrian tribe fighting against the Visigoths, Suebi, Marcomanni, Romano-Hispanic landowners, Bacaudae rebels, Vascones and a cult of fanatical Hellenists. It's probably some of the most interesting historical video gaming i've experienced. Really matches up with the chaos that Orosius hints at in his history.
>>346293
Sounds like a blast, I will check it.
Chindasvinto did nothing wrong
>>346251
I really like the Marinid emblem, both for colors and the simplicity of the symbol.
>>345961
Most likely because of this
>its hills and shit
>Show up to collect taxes
>tax collector gets removed
>you send a force to bring them to heel
>everyone goes innawoods
>>343810
Were there any El Cid figures on the Moorish side?
>>346571
El Cid.
>>346571
Tariq ibn Ziyad sort of set the show in motion
>>346591
Kek, I mean like El Cid, but Muslim.
>>346591
top lel
>>346571
But, if you're looking for a complicated muslim hero, search for the Rey Lobo of Murcia also called ibn Mardanis. He felt both muslim and iberian and he was not gonna accept some shitty desert camel-fuckers to invade his kingdom, so he fought both the christians and the almohad muslims, prefering war against the later.
If you're looking for a less polemic character, just a "cool moorish general", look for Almanzor.
>>346571
The Wolf King of Murcia, ibn Mardanis
Tell me about El Cid.
Why does he fight the Moors?
>>343821
>not the original version
"¡Ya Señor glorioso, Padre que en çielo estas!
Fezist çielo e tierra, el tercero el mar,
fezist estrelas e luna y el sol pora escalentar;
prisist encarnaçion en Santa Maria madre,
en Belleem apareçist commo fue tu veluntad;
pastores te glorifficaron, ovieron te a laudare,
tres reyes de Arabia te vinieron adorar
?Melchior e Gaspar e Baltasar?
oro e tus e mirra te offreçieron commo fue tu veluntad,?
salvest a Jonas quando cayo en la mar,
salvest a Daniel con los leones en la mala carçel,
salvest dentro en Roma al señor San Sabastian,
salvest a Santa Susanna del falso criminal;
por tierra andidiste .xxxii. años, Señor spirital,
mostrando los miraclos por en avemos que fablar:
del agua fezist vino e de la piedra pan,
resuçitest a Lazaro ca fue tu voluntad;
a los judios te dexeste prender; do dizen monte Calvarie
pusieron te en cruz por nombre en Golgota,
dos ladrones contigo, estos de señas partes,
el uno es en paraiso ca el otro non entro ala;
estando en la cruz vertud fezist muy grant:
Longinos era çiego que nunquas vio alguandre,
diot con la lança en el costado dont ixio la sangre,
corrio la sangre por el astil ayuso, las manos se ovo de untar,
alçolas arriba, legolas a la faz,
abrio sos ojos, cato a todas partes,
en ti crovo al orapor end es salvo de mal;
en el monumento resuçitest,
fust a los infiernos commo fue tu voluntad,
quebrantaste las puertas e saqueste los santos padres.
Tu eres rey de los reyes e de tod el mundo padre,
a ti adoro e creo de toda voluntad,
e ruego a San Peydro que me ayude a rogar
por mio Çid el Campeador que Dios le curie de mal,
¡quando oy nos partimos en vida nos faz juntar!"
>>343810
>medieval
>"Spain"
El Cid is not vernacular
Traditionalistas out!
>>346199
The Franks generally supported the independence of the Kingdom of Asturias as a buffer against the Muslims.
>>347443
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoria_de_Espa%C3%B1a
>>346241
that's because they spoke a gaulish latin for quite sometime until the normans came and overthrew the anglo-saxons, which then started spreading their retarded germanic hybrid with the plebs
>>347443
>not knowing that Spain = Iberia in a medieval context
>>345915
Because Martel beat their ass when they did try
>>348758
They did settle in Narbonenesis though
>>345915
Those people up in the cantabric mountains had been resisting all forms of a central power, be it the Romans or the Visigoths, for centuries.
The irony is that the Reconquista began there.
What's some recommended reading on Visigothic Spain? I'm starting to get more interested in the time period following the fall of Rome, and realizing I know next to nothing about the bastards.
>>348920
Thompson´s (The Goths in Spain) is the classic book I think.
>>348890
According to Barbero and Vigil is not ironic but logic.
But their views have been denounced as biased as they took the Cantabric Wars as example of resistance agaisnt the Romans and then jumped to the Vascones ignoring the centuries of stability that the Northern Spain had shown between.
>>348920
Goths in Spain by EA Thompson is great. Really comphrehensive look at visigothic spain
>>348939
beat me to it lol
>>344276
Nah. The worst were probably the Almohads.
>>343810
>yfw The rest of Europe making fun of the Spains Moorish heritage made them so mad they started the inquisition in an act of extreme self denial.
>>349052
no one was really making fun of moors for quite sometime
If you're interested in Muslim Spain you can watch it played early here
twitch totalwarofficial
>>349057
I meant 16th century Europeans. The Spanish more or less introduced the Pike to England from whence they called them Morris Pikes, as in moorish pikes.
The Dutch had a few battle songs about the Spanish in which they refer to their moorish and halfblood trumpets.
Essentially the 16th century equivalent of
>Spain
>White
>>349078
success breeds jealousy
>>349078
Our real banter was Guy Fawkes. It truly rustled english jimmies and set them up for le big witch hunting game, civil war and puritanism.
>>349078
So they introduced something in the XV cause a century later their enemies make jokes about them?
This thread is lacking Geralt the Fearless.
Any good histories on pre-Roman to Dark Ages Spain? Every Spanish history I find is about either the Reconquista or the Civil War.
>>351428
We have a very rich and interesting prehistoric and ancient history, from the first humans in W.Europe in Atapuerca to iron age cultures and civilizations, but I don't know any books in english about it.
there are zones in spain where they call the rest of spain "goths" as a despective slur because they were so SHIT
protip: dont defend goths
>>351961
Yes. In the Canaries. Where the local people, the guanches, were basically exterminated shortly after the conquest.
Protip: the Canaries were populated mostly by andalucians, in turn repopulated by other peninsulars from the North.
Le irony.
>>351987
>Protip: the Canaries were populated mostly by andalucians, in turn repopulated by other peninsulars from the North.
most zones in the canaries were populated by peoples outside spain, like portuguese or people from ireland.
north of tenerife was almost entirely populated by portuguese, for example
>>352000
>portuguese or people from Ireland
No.
>>352009
>he doesnt know about the canaries conolization
i'll post proof tomorrow if this thread is still alive
>>347192
Well, he fought FOR them for a long while too...
