What amount of truth is there behind the S.S. being full of bloodthirsty monsters, as opposed to the Wehrmacht who were ordinary and sometimes very honorable soldiers that is depicted occasionally in Hollywood?
>>333681
No. (Browning, Ordinary men)
BERLIN: A guilt-ridden account of an ordinary German soldier's experiences in World War two is countering a recent trend among historians to portray Germans as victims of the war.
Willy Peter Reese, an infantryman who fought on the Russian front and died in 1944 aged 23, kept a diary of how German soldiers killed scores of prisoners of war, committed rape, threw pregnant women and children out of their homes and stole food.
As the fighting wore on, indifference undermined the soldiers' discipline. ''Most numbed themselves with superficiality, with gambling, with cruelty or hatred, or they masturbated,'' wrote Reese.
Wounded several times, Reese volunteered to return to the front. He wrote that his soul had ''rotted'' and that he was ''lost''. The last words in his manuscript are ''I loved life.''
Reese's account shows how the Nazi war machine corrupted ordinary people. It gives an insight into how a cultured, educated nation obediently followed Hitler into a war of conquest and destruction.
Obviously that is a simplistic characterisation, but some of the more imagination capturing, egregious cruelties such as Dirlewanger's were performed under the SS badge.
>>333681
Nonsense. Hollywood propaganda.
>>333765
Is this transition to becoming terrible people due to the war something that can be found in ordinary Allied soldiers as well, or did some part of the Nazi's ideology/leadership help cause it?
>>333681
Well, it varies a lot.
See, the S.S. was two things. One, it was an army of political party members, and two it was an army of foreigners as the Wehrmacht could only have German citizens in it under normal circumstances.
So, the "S.S." encompasses a whole lot of different kinds of peoples. It ranges from brainwashed zealots as likely to kill a German for cowardice as they are to execute a POW for being subhuman.
You have die hard suicidal Hitler Youth and you have scared kids who wanted to join the Boy Scouts and make friends.
You have Bolshevik hating Finnish and Polish who want revenge against Russia or even Russians who want to kick the Bolsheviks out, and could care less about the different races and just want to get rid of Communism.
The Wehrmacht is no different. Millions of men of different upbringing, desires and mindset.
There were good S.S. soldiers, there were bad Wehrmacht infantrymen.
>>333681
You can find examples and counter examples in both formations.
Some SS units performed honorably, and some wehrmact units became involved in horrendous shit. But as the SS was the political arm of the nazis armies, they were the ones tasked with the more controversial stuff. It was seldom the Waffen SS though, which is not to be confused with the SS organization as a whole.
>>333765
>Hurrr its all the nazis fault.
You went full retard. Low morale isn't caused directly by Hitler or the ruling party. Its an effect of continued fighting, heavy casualties and poor supplylines and outlook for the war.
>>333807
Both.
War is a terrible, awful thing. It attracts terrible, awful people as well. Scores of Americans and British committed what we would call atrocities, against their enemy, against their enemy's civilians, against their ally's civilians even. Men are men. War is not kind to men, no matter where you come from or how you came to it.
>>333821
What's the major difference between the Waffen SS and the rest of the organization?
>>333796
>but some of the more imagination capturing, egregious cruelties such as Dirlewanger's were performed under the SS badge.
And some of them were performed by Reserve Police Battalions, or Wehrmacht units on "light" anti-partisan duties.
>>333807
If you want to find this in Allied forces, read about the US and Australian campaigns in the islands and PNG, and their subsequent attempt to rape Japanese women into submission after the war.
>>333838
The SS were primarily involved in anti-partisan activity and policing occupied areas while the waffen-SS were more involved in the front line.
>>333838
The Waffen SS was strictly the military branch of the SS. The security troops in occupied territories and the SS personnels who were tasked with the racial and extermination policies of the nazis didnt belong to that branch, but mostly to the Allgemeine SS and the Totenkopfverbände .
And as a result of being elite units and generally better funded, equipped and trained than wehrmacht counterparts, generally speaking, they were more often than not directly on the frontline and seldom involved with the nasty stuff being carried out behind the frontline.
>>333681
really Depends. for example I see most of the Foreign SS only really joined up to fight the commies
>>333838
3 organizations within the SS
SS Verband: Concentration Camps and Death Camps
Ordnungs Polizei: Police at home and in the occupied areas
Waffen SS: para military detachments on the front line
>>333852
It is worth mentioning also, at this point, that the Waffen-SS had appalling infantry tactics and doctrine, wasted men like water through their hands, and were inefficient divisions in terms of manpower input.
There was never a stupider "elite" group than the Waffen-SS except for the US marine corps in WWII. And at least the US marine corps had a unique mission which created the doctrinal idiocy that they engaged in.
>>333807
The german army had an official amnesty for crimes committed in the east, collaboration with the Einsatzgruppen was arranged in March 1941, and it also suspended the Hague conventions with respect to soviet prisoners, ordering the murder of political officers and untrustworthy elements from among the POWs
Note this was all organised before the invasion of russia.
>>333887
>There was never a stupider "elite" group than the Waffen-SS except for the US marine corps in WWII. And at least the US marine corps had a unique mission which created the doctrinal idiocy that they engaged in.
Explain? The marines regularly carried out successful amphibious landings against fortified positions, unarguably the most difficult possible military operation to pull off.
>>333890
The Commissar order applied to civilians not captured as prisoners of war, and was a general order to the armed forces. The mass execution of civilians by all armed forces was contemplated well before the invasion.
>>333887
this post completely. not to mention that most of the waffen ss leadership was incompetent.
"I once spent an hour and a half trying to explain a situation to Sepp Dietrich with the aid of a map. It was quite useless. He understood nothing at all." — Wilhelm Bittrich
>>333917
>fortified positions
the japanese in no way constructed adequate fortifications to defend themselves. That and any amphibious assault is made much easier after hours of constant naval and air bombardment :)
>>333933
kek
>>333890
The Soviet Union never signed the conventions of war. They certainly didn't follow it towards Germany. Everyone involved knew it was total war. Not because Hitler was soooo bad.
OP here once more--thanks a lot for the replies guys! Knowing how broad the SS is now, I'd like to change the original question a bit: Were the "vehr are ze Jews" and internal police type of SS to a much greater degree "evil" and overzealous than the Wehrmacht, in general?
And, did high Wehrmacht officers make a good amount of "evil" decisions, or was this something mostly restricted to smaller scales with lower ranking officers?
>>333917
>Explain? The marines regularly carried out successful amphibious landings against fortified positions, unarguably the most difficult possible military operation to pull off.
Read about their contributions to ordinary operations. I'd suggest reading about the marine raiders in overland operations as an exemplary demonstration of using mission specialised troops in general operations, and the negative impacts of specialised doctrine in general operations.
>unarguably the most difficult possible military operation to pull off.
Opposed air landing? Mass strategic retreat in good order?
But without shitting you, the doctrinal specialisation of the Marine corps meant that they were ill suited to ordinary operations. In contrast, the doctrinal idiocy of the Waffen-SS had no specialised purpose.
>>333946
>the japanese in no way constructed adequate fortifications to defend themselves
What about Iwo and Tarawa?
>That and any amphibious assault is made much easier after hours of constant naval and air bombardment :)
Doesn't sound like doctrinal idiocy to me
>>333965
No. (Browning, Ordinary Men).
>>333965
Trying to judge any person in Germany as evil is an utterly stupid mindset that fails to take into account any sort of context or the crimes and dispositions of the people they were fighting against.
>>333852
Anti-partisan warfare was in and of itself interesting. Some days you are a fighting a uniformed enemy in a battle, the next you are massacring a village. Interesting stuff. Good book on it is this http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B005CWHL0S?ie=UTF8&redirectFromSS=1&pc_redir=T1&noEncodingTag=1&fp=1
>>333681
A solider was a solider on the Eastern front especially. If you read the memoirs of most german soldiers, you'll find a very positive opinion of the Waffen SS, their fighting abilities and willingness to hold the line. You'll find contempt for what today we'd call non-combat arms MOS SS soliders. They called them rear area swine. This is the Allegemeine SS or general SS.
The SS, the Waffen SS, the Luftwaffe, the Kreigsmarine, the Volksturm and the Wehrmacht all did atrocities to varying degrees. No one branch is clean. Some are a bit less covered in blood.
Just as the Army Air Corps, the Marines, the Navy and the Army did atrocities to varying degrees.
Same applies to all the combantants. Curtis Lemay once said if we lost the war he'd be hung as a war criminal.
The Germans lost. This lead to your current question about the stereotypes. The SS are a convinient generic bad guy with a cool looking uniform. The Wehrmacht is tailor made to be it's foil in Hollywood movies. That's all it is.
>>333969
>Read about their contributions to ordinary operations. I'd suggest reading about the marine raiders in overland operations as an exemplary demonstration of using mission specialised troops in general operations, and the negative impacts of specialised doctrine in general operations.
I actually will and any suggestions on where to start reading would be appreciated.
>Opposed air landing?
fair enough
>Mass strategic retreat in good order?
Pff even Joffre pulled it off in 1914
>>333965
The wehrmacht had their fair share of political fanatics
one being Walther von Reichenau. He was a zealous Nazi and Field Marshall in the Wehrmacht. He was respected as a commander but at the same time was not well liked for his political affiliations. At the time, an officer in the army was expected to be a-political
>>333985
P.S. The fact is, that Germans already faced a tribunal, and most received a far harsher victor's justice than they deserved. Who should be held to council are those who made this a total war and refused peace whenever it was offered, those who ordered the destruction of German civilian towns, those who falsified war crimes against he Germans, and those who committed war crimes against German civilians and POWs. Implying that the Wehrmaht or SS are "evil" is utterly ignorant to the fact that both sides of the war (or all 3, rather) had committed crimes, of desperation or hatred.
>>333994
>At the time, an officer in the army was expected to be a-political
That's what I took out from reading the memoirs of some wehrmacht officers (Namely, Von Kageneck, who was a lowly lieutenant). It seems that in the wehrmacht there was no real craze about the whole nazi thing, as a general rule, with a bunch of counter examples to that.
>>333963
>Everyone involved knew it was total war. Not because Hitler was soooo bad.
The German/Nazi plan was to dominate and/or eliminate(?) the "untermenschen" in the East. There are specific conversations by Hitler regarding his plans for these peoples.
yes, war crimes occured on all sides during the war but were they so calculated as on the German side with such widespread planning and execution ?
>>333991
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlson%27s_patrol
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bougainville_Campaign
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Britain_campaign
Here's a comparison operation, from a doctrinally different force: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aitape%E2%80%93Wewak_campaign
Opposed landing is a doctrine that requires a certain level of idiocy, which some term "elan."
>>334026
I'm not suggesting that any side is clean from doing terrible things, I'm asking about the relation of doing terrible things between two different branches of a country's military, which I don't think is terribly unreasonable
>everyone fighting for Germany were child rapist murderers
>>334026
The Germans lost. A reality of having lost is you lose your right to justice and fairness. Your opinion is irrelevant in that regard.
World War 2 was a fight to the finish. The Germans lost because they were not ruthless enough. They did not want to put the civilian workforce in the factory. They did not go into full industrial production. Hitler could have used poison gas and potentially kept the advantage on the Eastern Front. Not doing so was pure weakness on his part.
This is also my post for the thread record
>>333988
>>333765
This.
>>334058
As has already been stated in this thread, the waffen-SS supremely despised the non-frontline SS tasked with order, anti-partisan duties, and yes, extermination. Hard to not give them reason, too, since the Waffen SS selected the best, and the dregs and lowlives went to the other services.
>>334049
I do not doubt for a second that the Red Army and Stalin planned such atrocities during the war when they would occupy an area.
You can also count the Allied Strategic Bombing campaign as well if we are counting warcrimes as a thing now.
>>334042
The Wehrmacht also had a lot of new rising stars. Officers who rode up the ladder of power thanks to the success of the Nazis and their expansion of the military. Think of the Wilhelm Keitel types, these are officers who are in no way fit for front line leadership but are well placed in administrative duties where you can find their political views fit right in. These officers were always despised by the "Old Guard" being Rundstedt, Blomberg, Beck and other older Reichswehr generals
>>334092
Soviet civilian casualties=17 million
German civilian casualties=2 million
>the Red Army and Stalin planned such atrocities during the war when they would occupy an area.
I guess they wernt very good at it then
>>334068
>>334092
Which is strange, because for a 10 year period we had access to PC and CC minutes, and no plans were made. There are regular accounts of NKVD forces executing second line soviet troops for continued rape after the widely recognised "3 day" law of sieges, and after 3 days in Berlin, the city commandant walked into the street and began shooting soldiers.
And of course, as both Konigsberg and Berlin were feistung, there were no civilians in either of them.
Fuck off.
>Allied Strategic Bombing campaign
Only when not attacking war industries, or feistung.
>>334092
not so much planning as it was an intense burning hatred for the people that invaded them.
>>334104
>only Germans could kill Soviet civilians
>>334109
>the Russians would actually give us access to the real documents
>Maskirovka isn't a thing
>Trusting the Russians ever
I think you have made some mistakes my friend. Think it over.
Arthur Harris obbession with area bombing to "dehouse" people is literally winning the war by murdering the workforce aka the civilians.
We won so we don't have to worry about such questions of tricky morality thankfully.
>>334104
Mass rape of women, deportation/murder of any ethnic group that assisted the Germans. Being the space age mechanized hordes or Genghis Khan is effective. Organized terror and fear was a weapon the Reds were masters of using.
>>334146
Brb gonna grab some chow. This is a great thread. Good work OP.
>>334146
>deportation/murder of any ethnic group that assisted the Germans
Poor poor Ukrainians.
First they get starved out before the war.
When the germans come they first welcome them as liberators, but they begin to commit atrocities against them.
When the soviets come back, they get shafted for their initial attitude toward the germans.
Would have sucked to be a Ukrainian in that period.
>>334146
>>the Russians would actually give us access to the real documents
I'm sorry you're a conspiracy theorist, but it is fucking pathetic.
>Arthur Harris obbession with area bombing to "dehouse" people is literally winning the war by murdering the workforce aka the civilians.
Which lies outside of the two exceptions I gave you to aerial bombardment as war-crimes, and is therefore a war-crime.
>such questions of tricky morality
You seem to have a very simplistic view of morality in central europe, a deep incapacity to read English, and a conspiracy theory view of the documentary record. There is a television channel you might like to watch, "The History Channel."
>>334185
>"The History Channel."
What do antiques and fat men shouting at roller doors have to do with the discussion?
>>334185
This is bait lads, don't fall for it.
>>334114
>Germans start war
>Not responsible for civilian deaths
>>334217
Nice strawmanning.
>>333834
No.
>>334069
Gas in an effective weapon. It did not even see widespread use in WW1 because the times it was deployed it either under-performed or backfired horribly. The various commanders on the front realized they could get equal or better results with artillery without the chance of the wind suddenly changing and fucking up their own lines with their own weapon.
The terror that gas inspired was perhaps its only outstanding trait.
>>334203
About as much as doubting the period of archival opening of party minutes being genuine.
>>334229
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEzhxP-pdos
>>333710
No, all germans regardless of the badge they wore were vicious, jew hating genocide supporters (Goldhagen, Willing Executioners)
:^)
>>334185
>I'm sorry you're a conspiracy theorist, but it is fucking pathetic.
That is a bit unnecessary isn't it? I'm not a conspiracy theorist. The Russians are admitted masters of espionage and intelligence work. No sane country is ever going to open it's true wartime records to the public. It goes against every principle of intelligence work and maintaining the security of the state. When I get back from my dinner, I'll be glad to show some proofs about the Soviet/Russian willingness to alter the record via some book links.
>Which lies outside of the two exceptions I gave you to aerial bombardment as war-crimes, and is therefore a war-crime.
I misunderstood you, I apologize.
>You seem to have a very simplistic view of morality in central europe, a deep incapacity to read English, and a conspiracy theory view of the documentary record. There is a television channel you might like to watch, "The History Channel."
Come on Senpai. My tricky morality reference was to the effect that because we won the war, we don't have to look in the mirror. Morality in wartime is a difficult thing to judge now let alone at the time. Who knows what a Nazi tribunal would choosen to hold us responsible for or not for. Thankfully we aren't forced to deal with that guilt.
>>333765
You fucked it up with the last bit. If that were true what you described would have been common on the Western front and in Africa. Which simply isn't the case.
You cant take anecdotal evidence from one front of the war then say that the whole thing suffered from the Nazi government. That's just false.
But yes there were a lot of atrocities committed by both sides on the Eastern front
>>334237
I must disagree with you on the gas reference. The Germans were masters of using artillery to deliver gas. For more information please view these two books (I'm reading the later now hence my name)
I can go into detail and copy from my book I'm using now if you want. It's fantastic. I wish my fucking pizza would be cooked on time. You can't get quality service these days.
http://www.amazon.com/The-German-1918-Offensives-Operational/dp/0415558794
http://www.amazon.com/Steel-Wind-Colonel-Bruchmuller-Artillery/dp/0275947505
>>334290
>No sane country is ever going to open it's true wartime records to the public
And you don't seem to know how archives operate. When a country like the United Kingdom, or Australia or New Zealand opens cabinet documents, the minutes run in series. Similarly the PC and CC minutes run in series. In the case of the Soviet Union we know that the decisive meetings were the PC and CC meetings, we know that Stalin expected these meetings to implement the general course of the party's line without his direct intervention (1933 correspondence between Stalin and the deputy chair).
>It goes against every principle of intelligence work and maintaining the security of the state. When I get back from my dinner, I'll be glad to show some proofs about the Soviet/Russian willingness to alter the record via some book links.
You do that. The 1990s minutes opening was fairly unique, and the fact that the archival access has subsequently CLOSED indicates that the access was real and genuine.
Your conspiracy theory attitude to Soviet archives is frankly pathetic.
>>333681
>Wehrmacht who were ordinary and sometimes very honorable
I think Manstein started that fire after his trial in that book he wrote
>>334324
Not really sure what your basis in this argument is, but it sounds like you're denying a FACT that the Soviets withheld information about wartime conduct and the RF continues it to this day.
>>334333
It doesn't have any one source I don't think. It's been noted by many on several sides of the war.
The British had a high opinion of Rommel and his troops in Africa.
The Americans said similar with their experiences. The culprits tended to be the SS.
Where shit got really bad was the Eastern front. Maybe it's because of the Nazi dislike of slavs (which didn't extend to its allies apparently) or maybe it was just the brutal nature with which the war there was fought. But terrible shit occured there and it was from both sides of the conflict.
>>333807
The Soviets basically raped the entire eastern front on the march to berlin.
>>334324
>When a country like the United Kingdom, or Australia or New Zealand opens cabinet documents, the minutes run in series.
I think this is the disconnect we are having. The Soviet Union is not like any other country nor is the U.S. for that matter.
We in the States still have plenty of classified secret squirrel stuff that isn't on the record. Why would the Soviet Union or Russian Federation be any different.
>Your conspiracy theory attitude to Soviet archives is frankly pathetic.
I've provided you reasoning as to why I think this. I'll get you the books when I get home. There is no reason for ad hominem attacks. We're both adults having a reasonable discussion over a topic we feel passionate about.
>>334171
Didn't see this post but I totally agree with you. It would have seriously sucked.
>>334343
The argument was that at the highest level the Soviet Union planned war crimes. Not post war population deportations, which they publicised. Not "fall back" law of war such as lawful rapine. And this would be found in PC minutes.
Fuck off mate.
>>333807
Allies committed tons of war crimes too
It's just typical of war in general
>>334375
>Why would the Soviet Union or Russian Federation be any different.
Because of the uniquely honest nature of PC and CC minutes. When they talk about liquidations, they do so in a readily appreciable code. The main areas of "black" archives relate to the unlawful imprisonments and executions of Bolsheviks, because this was the topic that the state could not forebear upon. When it came to the treatment of Soviet or foreign citizens, the PC was clear and direct.
>>333887
The US Marines aren't touted as 'elite 'outside of recruitment propaganda. The Marine Raiders are, but they're like the Rangers compared to regular troops.
>>333933
Ya don't need maps when u got guts, bruv.
Sepp out!
>>334069
Retarded argument, Germany, or rather Germany with Hitler on the top was doomed from the beginning, he was incapable of smart decisions because he just wasn't smart, he wasn't a good tactician, nor a good strategist, economist or anything for that matter. Him not using poison gas was the best he could do, the Russians and Americans would've retaliated ten fold, and no German civilian would've survived that.
Also, just to take the wind out of those Nazi's apologists' sails, of course there were war crimes and the killing of countless Jews was not only the Nazi's doing, they got a lot of help in some places, but you cannot deny the intention and cruelty along with the obedience Hitlers commands were met with, and it wasn't just Jews, whole villages massacred and burned down just for the sake of it.
The german people have brought it on themselves back then, there would've been enough opportunities to stand up, not for civilians but for military, for people in command, nobody ever did, except for assasins like Stauffenberg, but I don't think he did it for purely ideological reasons.
>>333681
They were fucking ghouls. The only reason contrarian assholes even question this is because they are "sophisticated"
I really dont want to pull the race card here (because Im white), but its handsome clean shaven white people in nice good looking uniforms. If they were ugly dindus wearing shitty miss matched ad hoc military uniforms wearing an old beret and an "EAGLES 2005 SUPERBOWL CHAMPIONS!" t shirt, and they did the exact same things, all you fucks would condemn them as the savages they are and never think twice about it.
>>333681
Never trust anything depicted as historical (fuck scientific too) that originates from Hollywood
That's just a rule man
>>333681
>as opposed to the Wehrmacht who were ordinary and sometimes very honorable
I hate this meme.
>>339075
i agree with your sentiments.
>>334351
>Nazi dislike of slavs (which didn't extend to its allies apparently)
Yeah it's like they hated only their enemies or something, downright shocking concept.
>>334351
>Maybe it's because of the Nazi dislike of slavs
It was fanatic anti-communism more than anything else; accounts vary, but it seems like beyond propaganda and "muh lebensraum" the Germans didn't really have a problem with slavs as such but gommies were literally satan.
fagermany didnt used gas because hitler knew if he does he will get it back 100x
>>333807
It happens to any soldiers who are left on the front lines for too long, or when the unit morale has dropped too low. The reason that US soldiers are rotated in and out of hotspots as quickly as they are is because it keeps the soldiers from slipping into a state expressed both here in Reese's account and similar episodes during the Vietnam war. You can't leave soldiers in front lines conditions I think for any more than a month before they start to exhibit serious morale problems and longer you leave them exposed to combat the worse they become until eventually they really do just stop giving a fuck and do whatever they feel like.
>>333681
The (non-Waffen) SS was an odd combination of upper class opportunists (I'm talking well educated aristocrats) and SA-type thugs
All led by a nerd with strange ideas about mysticism who wanted to recreate a Teutonic Order
I wouldn't call them monsters (though I'm sure some were awful people), but it was a vehicle for people to get ahead in this new all-powerful state
Thus it attracted people who wanted power, who aren't always...virtuous
>>339354
>All led by a nerd with strange ideas about mysticism who wanted to recreate a Teutonic Order
kek'd
>>339075
This is pretty much the entirety of the Nazi state in general.
I wish all the fuckers talking about how great National Socialism was would fuck off the Zimbabwe, since that's the closest thing to what they have.
>>333681
The SS was full of bloodthirsty monsters.
The Wehrmacht was pretty shitty too.
