Disregarding the Novus Ordo obviously, since every Catholic and Orthodox alike can agree that it is utter trash, who would you say has the better liturgics, and if you're Catholic or Orthodox, what do you like/not like about the other sides? And what you would think of some nifty little variants of prayers between the two. Also, general Christian Liturgics discussion. For instance, the Catholic:
>Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now, and shall be forever, world without end. Amen
Vs. Orthodox
>Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever and unto the Ages of Ages. Amen.
Or, for a more far-apart example, the most common Catholic Marian prayer:
>Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
Vs. The Orthodox:
It is truly meet to call thee blessed, the ever-most blameless and Mother of our God. More honorable than the Cherubim, and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim, Thee who without corruption gavest birth to God the Word, the very Theotokos, Thee do we magnify.
Personally, I strongly prefer the Horologion over the LOTH. The LOTH is simply far too short, moving it to a four week cycle rather than the one week one killed it entirely. And the structure is incredibly simple, and the prayers just aren't existent except for some short intercessions and blessings, whereas the Hologion is extremely penintial in nature and loaded with various prayers and blessings, it really reminds you of just what a sinful state you're truly in. I'll post some examples in the next post.
As for the Divine Liturgy vs. TLM, I'm split. Both are amazingly beautiful and I think I may actually hand it over to the TLM on this one.
A few examples from Orthodox Compline (before bed prayers):
O Lord, Heavenly King, Comforter, Spirit of Truth, show compassion and have mercy on me, Thy sinful servant, and loose me from mine unworthiness, and forgive all wherein I have sinned against Thee today as a man, and not only as a man, but even worse than a beast, my sins voluntary and involuntary, known and unknown, whether from youth, and from evil suggestion, or whether from brazenness and despondency. If I have sworn by Thy name, or blasphemed it in my thoughts; or grieved anyone, or have become angry about anything; or have lied, or slept needlessly, or if a beggar hath come to me and I disdained him; or if I have grieved my brother, or have quarreled, or have condemned anyone; or if I have been boastful, or prideful, or angry; if, as I stood at prayer, my mind hath been distracted by the wiles of this world, or by thoughts of depravity; if I have overeaten, or have drunk excessively, or laughed frivolously; if I have thought evil, or have seen the beauty of another and been wounded thereby in my heart; if I have said improper things, or derided my brother's sin when mine own sins are countless; if I have been neglectful of prayer, or have done some other wrong that I cannot remember, for all of this and more than this have I done: have mercy, O Master my Creator, on me Thy downcast and unworthy servant, and loose me, and remit, and forgive me, for Thou art good and the Lover of mankind, so that, lustful, sinful, and wretched as I am, I may lie down and sleep and rest in peace. And I shall worship, and hymn, and glorify Thy most honorable name, together with the Father and His Only-begotten Son, now and ever, and unto the ages. Amen.
(1)
O undefiled, untainted, uncorrupted, most pure, chaste Virgin, Thou Bride of God and Sovereign Lady, who didst unite the Word of God to mankind though thy most glorious birth giving, and hast linked the apostate nature of our race with the heavenly; who art the only hope of the hopeless, and the helper of the struggling, the ever-ready protection of them that hasten unto thee, and the refuge of all Christians: Do not shrink with loathing from me a sinner, defiled, who with polluted thoughts, words, and deeds have made myself utterly unprofitable, and through slothfulness of mind have become a slave to the pleasures of life. But as the Mother of God Who loveth mankind, show thy love for mankind and mercifully have compassion upon me a sinner and prodigal, and accept my supplication, which is offered to thee out of my defiled mouth; and making use of thy motherly boldness, entreat thy Son and our Master and Lord that He may be pleased to open for me the bowels of His lovingkindness and graciousness to mankind, and, disregarding my numberless offenses, will turn me back to repentance, and show me to be tried worker of His precepts.
(2)
And be thou ever present unto me as merciful, compassionate and well disposed; in the present life be thou a fervent intercessor and helper, repelling the assaults of adversaries and guiding me to salvation, and at the time of my departure taking care of my miserable soul, and driving far away from it the dark countenances of the evil demons; lastly, at the dreadful day of judgment delivering me from torment eternal and showing me to be an heir of the ineffable glory of thy Son and our God; all of which may I attain, O my Sovereign Lady, most holy Theotokos, in virtue of thine intercession and protection, through the grace and love to mankind of thine only begotten Son, our Lord and God and Savior, Jesus Christ, to Whom is due all glory, honor and worship, together with His unoriginate Father, and His Most Holy and good and life creating Spirit, now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.
(1)
What shall I offer Thee, or what shall I give Thee, O greatly-gifted, immortal King, O compassionate Lord Who lovest mankind? For though I have been slothful in pleasing Thee, and have done nothing good, Thou hast led me to the close of this day that is past, establishing the conversion and salvation of my soul. Be merciful to me a sinner, bereft of every good deed, raise up my fallen soul which hath become defiled by countless sins, and take away from me every evil thought of this visible life. Forgive my sins, O Only Sinless One, in which I have sinned against Thee this day, known or unknown, in word, and deed, and thought and in all my senses. Do Thou Thyself protect and guard me from every opposing circumstance, by Thy Divine authority and power and inexpressible love for mankind. Blot out, O God, blot out the multitude of my sins.
(2)
Be pleased, O Lord, to deliver me from the net of the Evil One, and save my passionate soul, and overshadow me with the light of Thy countenance when Thou shalt come in glory; and cause me, uncondemned now, to sleep a dreamless sleep, and keep Thy servant untroubled by thoughts, and drive away from me all satanic deeds; and enlighten for me the eyes of my heart with understanding, lest I sleep unto death. And send me an angel of peace, a guardian and guide of my soul and body, that he may deliver me from mine enemies; that, rising from my bed, I may offer Thee prayers of thanksgiving. Yea, O Lord, hearken unto me, Thy sinful and wretched servant, in confession and conscience; grant me, when I arise, to be instructed by Thy sayings; and through Thine angels cause demonic despondency to be driven far from me: that I may bless Thy holy name, and glorify and extol the most pure Theotokos Mary, whom Thou hast given to us sinners as a protectress, and accept her who prayeth for us. For I know that she exemplifieth Thy love for mankind and prayeth for us without ceasing. Through her protection, and the sign of the precious Cross, and for the sake of all Thy saints, preserve my wretched soul, O Jesus Christ our God: for holy art Thou, and most glorious for ever. Amen.
Latin Christianity really started to go downhill with the Tridentine Mass, actually. And The Orthodox Church objected to it before that, even
>. It is typical that a Russian writer of the fifteenth century, when attacking he Council of Florence, should find fault with the Latins, not for any errors in doctrine, but for their behaviour in worship: ‘What have you seen of worth among the Latins? They do not even know how to venerate the church of God. They raise their voices as the fools, and their singing is a discordant wail. They have no idea of beauty and reverence in worship, for they strike trombones, blow horns, use organs, wave their hands, trample with their feet, and do many other irreverent and disorderly things which bring joy to the devil’ (
To be honest, I don't like anything about Latin Liturgics.
HOWEVER, The Catholic Church has produced some excellent music and art, I cannot deny that, it's just I don't think it should be used in Liturgy. And I will say I enjoy that music and art frequently, Palestrina is top tier.
>>321385
>That greentext
>mfw
>>321539
It's not necessarily an opinion shared by most Orthodox...I don't think Catholics ever trample with their feet in worship, he was just being polemical. Really what he was objecting to was the introduction of the kinds of music the Catholic Church brought in, as well as its instrumental accompaniment, but he paints it to sound like Christian rock (it might have seemed like that back then)
>>321385
>Latin Christianity really started to go downhill with the Tridentine Mass, actually
Not really. The "Tridentine Mass" (more generally, the Roman Rite family, referred in publications as the "Romano-Western synthesis") can be traced, in text and most of its ritual, to the Ordines Romani of the 7th-8th centuries. And its core, its eucharistic Anaphora (the Roman Canon Missae), while receiving its final redaction under Pope St. Gregory I, can in the main be dated (by internal textual evidence) to the mid-4th century, earlier than any anaphora still in use except for that of SS Addai and Mari.
The "Tridentine Mass" itself, in its strictest sense as the set of liturgical books promulgated with Quo Primum Tempore, was simply the rite of the Roman Curia, and is comparatively sparse in ceremonial (but then again, the Roman Rite historically has been), and wasn't even imposed by force (the cathedral chapter of any local church with a liturgy at least 200 years old, i.e. any well-established, non-mission diocese, who wanted to adopt it, had to vote unanimously)
>>321649
> Really what he was objecting to was the introduction of the kinds of music the Catholic Church brought in, as well as its instrumental accompaniment but he paints it to sound like Christian rock (it might have seemed like that back then)
An example of Byzantino-centrism in liturgical matters (among other things) which Archimandrite Robert Taft, Judith Herrin, etc, have commented on.
If you were referring to polyphony and instrumental accompaniment, let me say that the Latin churches of the West weren't unique in this regard.
>Instrumental accompaniment
The Coptic Orthodox Church has used cymbals in its liturgy since a long time ago, and still uses it today. Then again the Russian writer will call them heretics.
> Polyphony
Kartvelian liturgical polyphony is much more ancient (which, incidentally, the Russian church suppressed for a time when they were in control of the Georgian Catholicosate).
>>321931
And also, for anyone interested in liturgiology, the books of Anton Baumstark are required reading. Same with the publications of, e.g. Gabrielle Winkler, Archimandrite Robert Taft, Paul Bradshaw, etc.
>>321100
I'm praying these hours every day for Advent. It was a common Marian devotion in medieval times and was once a mandatory addition to the Roman Breviary. I love the Roman Breviary but don't want to pray it in English, so this is a tool I'm using as I study more Latin. I go to vespers and compline in the old Roman rite on occasion so I'm already used to the rubrics etc.
This book is available through the FSSP's Baronius Press, English and Latin on both sides. It is considered a suitable replacement for the breviary and is associated with the Brown Scapular devotion. You can find more info about it here:
http://www.breviary.net/littleoffice.htm
The full Little Office is available on the Divinum Officium website.
Hi, why does it matter what the Orthodox do in their liturgy when they're literally just not the correct church? They could do the coolest shit in the world but if they are not the Church Jesus instituted, you're going to go to hell for picking it over the Catholic Church no matter how cool you think it is.
How do people not get this?
