How did the Russian Revolution really happen?
How did the Mensheviks and Bolsheviks differ? I've heard that the Mensheviks were more intellectual and anti-authoritarian, and not anti-Semitic like the Bolsheviks were.
Why was it true that the Mensheviks were winning before the Bolsheviks started murdering Menshevik leaders?
Why did the Whites/Royalists lose so badly even with American military support? Why was the US so set on preserving the oppressive Tsarist government?
>>318261
>How did the Mensheviks and Bolsheviks differ? I've heard that the Mensheviks were more intellectual and anti-authoritarian, and not anti-Semitic like the Bolsheviks were.
>Mensheviks
Socialism is possible by evolving naturally; however first the population has to become prosperous enough
>Bolsheviks
Socialism is only possible via social revolution
>Why did the Whites/Royalists lose so badly even with American military support?
Because
1. There were no "Whites" to speak of, they were notoriously disunited.
2. Royalists were a laughable minority even among Whites. Most were republicans in one way or another.
3. American and Entente's support wasn't much at all, and it probably did more harm than good because Russian population is notoriously xenophobic.
>>318261
>Bolsheviks
>Anti-Semitic
>Red jews are anti semitic
Nigga what, a lot of the leading cadres of the Bolsheviks were jews.
>Why did the Whites/Royalists lose so badly even with American military support? Why was the US so set on preserving the oppressive Tsarist government?
The whites weren't Royalists, the whites were anti-Blosheviks, for a time it even included leftists, it wasn't unified at any time, its an umbrella term used for designating anti-bolshevik militants. Some whites were royalists but not all whites were.
The US didn't help, at all, not militarily at least, the expedition they sent did nothing and the US wasnt set on preserving the Tsarist government because it was a monarchy, thats why the US refused to aid Kolchak
>Opressive Tsarist government
Not nearly as opressive as the "peoples soviet union" the meme has to die
>>318395
>U.S. sent nothing
An un noteworthy force maybe, but it sent a tgousand or so.
SR's were better than them both, and actually won the election.
>Bolsheviks
>anti-semitic
Nigga what, Bolsheviks were almost without exception led by Jews.
>>318448
But it didn't do anything, its like saying
>How did the Bosnians end up slaughtered in Srebrenica when they had the Dutch helping them
They simply didn't do shit, the only ones that did help, were the based Czechoslovak legions, but they ended up killing the Whites by giving Kolchak to the Reds, but nobody can blame them really.
>>318458
The language he uses makesm e believe he is a lefty.
>USSR one against white EVEN THOUGH THE US HELPED
>Evil opressive Tsarist regime
The thing i really hate about this board, is communists, threads are ruined by communists and people actually believing Soviet meme history about
>muh opressive tsarist state
>free utopia of socialist staes in Russia
>Most people hated the Tsar
>The communists didn't commit mass murder on a then unprecedented scale
>The reds were supported overwhelmingly by the peasants even though the reds simply took from the peasants what they wanted and the whites paid for their provisions
>>318620
>muh opressive tsarist state
>Most people hated the Tsar
These are true, though. Of course, USSR turned out to be even worse but people hadn't known that at the time.
>>318653
Imperial Russia wasn't THAT oppressive, unless you were a student or something suspected of anti-monarchical leanings.
Most simple peasants loved the Tsar. Even when they were protesting they held images of the Tsar and the Royal family.
>>318668
>Even when they were protesting they held images of the Tsar and the Royal family.
Then Bloody Sunday happened. Then WW1 happened.
Tsar had almost no popular support when 1917 came. There's a reason there weren't many monarchists in the anti-Bolshevik movement and those who existed didn't want to have anything to do with Nicholas II.
>>318653
>Most people hated the Tsar
This is factually horseshit, if you knew anything about how deeply rooted autocracy was in Russian population you'd realize that. For most peasants (and vast majority of the empire were peasants) he was factually a demigod.
>>318620
>>muh opressive tsarist state
You are a moron if you claim that this is a meme.
>>318395
There were a lot more Jews among the Mensheviks. Some Bolshevik officials (Trotsky, most obviously) were Jewish but not very many.
The whole "Judeo-Bolshevism" concept is really nothing more than a Nazi meme
>>318795
> "Judeo-Bolshevism" concept is really nothing more than a Nazi meme
Except this "meme" predates the rise of Nazism by like 20 years
>>318746
It is a meme, im not saying it isn't true, but people focus on that, as if somehow the USSR wasn't one of the most oppressive states in existence. Its peanuts compared to the USSR yet pinkos just gloss over that fact because of a raging boner for Stalin. Its a meme in discussions about it as it wasn't any more brutal than other contemporary states. And the Russian Tsar was an autocrat. The "USSR" was a "workers union" at least the Monarchs didn't try to act as if they were building a "workers paradise"
>>318261
>Why was the US so set on preserving the oppressive Tsarist government?
They didn't fight to preserve the Tsar, they were fighting to preserve the provisional government of Russia.
>>319286
This
Jesus Christ people here literally think the Russian Revolution was against the Tsarist Empire. For fuck sake /his/ this is obnoxious.
>>318894
And, y'know, the disproportionate number of Jews amongst Communist leadership in numerous Communist regimes and revolutions.
1. Mensheviks were social democrats for the most part that believed the transition to communism should be peaceful and made via democratic reforms. Ironically they were more orthodox Marxists in some ways since they followed Marx's theory that a society needs to go through feudalism, then capitalism and finally communism and that every step forward comes naturally. Bolsheviks followed Lenin who threw most of that theory. According to him Russia should directly and violently transition to communism. His response to the objection that most Russians weren't prepared for communism was creating the theory of "Avantgarde Intelligentsia". Basically a bunch of enlightened leaders and intellectuals should suffice for a glorious revolution.
Since the Bolsheviks were way more militant than the Mensheviks they became more popular and then gulagd them.
>>319512
But that's false. Putin is co-opting Russian populist anti-Semitism, something which has been a constant force in the region since the High Middle Ages at least.
Some Jews were involved with the Bolsheviks, but the profound majority of Jewish progressives allied themselves with the Mensheviks, and many other Jews supported Republican movements among the Whites.
>>318454
Who were they?
>>319951
>entire Bolshevik upper caste was Jewish
>but that's irrelevant because Mensheviks were even more Jewish
I don't follow. And I also don't understand how Bolsheviks could be anti-semitic if they were almost all Jews.
You know about the Stalinist purges in the 1930s? They were primarily purging Jews. Like 50% of the NKVD commissars used to be Jewish which is unreally disproportionate to their population in Russia.
Is it true that the Mensheviks were winning before they were massacred?
Were they socialists or communists?
>>320045
>Is it true
No.
>Were they socialists or communists?
Like the Bolsheviks, they were a sect of intelligentsia with ideology disconnected from class experience. The Bolsheviks were merely less disconnected. Until 1918…
>>319318
It is because of the Marxists on this board not knowing that there were two revolutions in 1917. Once against the Tsar and one against the Democratic Provisional Government.
>>320162
>Provisional Government
>Democratic
Both revolutions were for workers' and peasants rule. The difference between the two changes in possession of control over the Tzarist state was which group of intelligentsia got a chance to repress the class and its peasant allies.
>>320193
>Muh telescoped revolution
Lenin please go.
>>320202
Firstly, friendo, the only revolution worth talking about in Europe in the teens and twenties is the proletarian one. This is the natural perspective for looking at the underlying relations on top of which the disputes between the aristocracy, bourgeoisie, intelligentsia and nomenklatura rest like a jelly filled tit of a mid range stripper.
Secondly, as you should know, the Leninists used the intelligentsia controlled geographic soviets to capture the Tzarist bureaucracy intact.
>>320035
There were only an extended handful of Jews in the Bolshevik leadership. The vast majority of Jews weren't comfortable with the Bolshevik's populist nature and peasant leadership.
Lots of individual Jews supported the Bolsheviks, but nowhere near the amount that supported the Mensheviks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolsheviks#Composition_of_the_party
>>320220
>Firstly, friendo, the only revolution worth talking about in Europe in the teens and twenties is the proletarian one.
There was no proletariat revolution. Lenin himself argued that the revolutionary class was not the proletariat but bourgeois-intellectuals. He argued this based on the idea that class consciousness in workers would never go beyond trade unionism.
The Leninist revolution was one of the intellectuals.
>Secondly, as you should know, the Leninists used the intelligentsia controlled geographic soviets to capture the Tzarist bureaucracy intact.
Lenin mainly replaced them because he did not trust non-Bolshevik bureaucracy.
>>319997
Socialist Revolutionary Party.
They were actually retarded.
>>320249
>There was no proletariat revolution.
Proletarian. Learn English, you're using it.
Also, see Pirani or Arisinov.
>Lenin himself argued that the revolutionary class was not the proletariat but bourgeois-intellectuals.
Firstly, claiming Lenin as an authority is specious. Secondly, no he didn't. In What is to be Done in 1905, Lenin argues that the proletariat is the revolutionary class, but that it is incapable of composing itself as its struggle in the factory only produces a consciousness of its position in capitalism, leading to the need for a PARTY not a class, to inject ideology into the proletariat. Thirdly, in 1913-1916 Lenin revised this position, calling continuously for more and more proletarian party members who would have a better consciousness of struggle than the average Bolshevik party member.
>The Leninist revolution was one of the intellectuals.
So why were the Red Guards from factory councils?
And why was Moscow as all party revolution in october?
>Lenin mainly replaced them because he did not trust non-Bolshevik bureaucracy.
Not until after the civil war, and even then.
>>320267
>So why were the Red Guards from factory councils?
Are you implying that Red Guards had power?
>And why was Moscow as all party revolution in october?
I refer you to this point.
>Learn English, you're using it.
You do not make sense, try again. Also Proletariat is a word in English.
>Secondly, no he didn't
Yes he did. If the party decides things and the party is made of bourgeois-intellectuals then in what way is the revolution anything to do with the proletariat? Cannon-fodder with no deciding power are not important. The workers who Lenin used to achieve power are not important.
>>320290
>Proletariat is a word in English.
It is a noun, not an adjective.
…
Please go on and reduce social phenomena to a great man theory. The 19th century wants you back.
>>319997
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Revolutionary_Party
>>320332
>Please go on and reduce social phenomena to a great man theory.
Are you implying that Lenin and his ideas were not important? Are you implying that workers had political power in Soviet Russia? If you are not capable of rational discussion about what happened in history then you should just go because it appears you are not capable of it.
>It is a noun, not an adjective.
I used it as a noun. Proletariat revolution is a noun.
>>320351
>Proletariat revolution is a noun.
No, it is a broken fucking noun phrase. "Revolution" here is the noun, "Proletarian" is the correct adjective to modify the noun. "Proletarian revolution" acts as a noun phrase.
>Are you implying that workers had political power in Soviet Russia?
Dual power wasn't just the geographic soviets.
Learn to use English.
>>320232
Communism is Jewish to the core, Marx was a rich Jew completely disconnected from the workers, yet teenage lefties jerk off to him as if he was some kind of working class hero. Many of the highest positions in the Bolshevik party were held by Jews. Trotsky being a clear example.
Why did the bolsheviks hate the republic? Was it because they were getting their ass handed to them in the election?
>>323386
Yes, once the "evil monarchy" was overthrown the bolsheviks started to lose ground because ther enemy was gone, and people saw that they had a choice. Kolchak should have won.
>>323375
Marx was Lutheran and died in poverty.
>>320290
>Cannon-fodder with no deciding power are not important. The workers who Lenin used to achieve power are not important.
This is a very old-fashioned way to look at the historiography. Saying the Russian Revolution was 'just' the Bolsheviks taking power ignores the agency of the majority of the population. Lenin wasn't some mastermind manipulating the actions of every single party member and he didn't always get what he wanted.
>>323375
Trotsky was also fucking kicked out and murdered.
The real reason there were jews at all supporting the reds is the Reds were the only ones promising national equality, and the circumstantial fact that the Reds made their major offensive into Ukraine while the largest-mass killing of jews was taking place there, causing many to flee and join the Bolsheviks since they were the only ones capable of restoring order. Jewish people also happened to be more educated than most people in Russia and thus more likely to join the party.
Lenin also was for all intents and purposes not Jewish, his great-grandfather was a jew who converted to Orthodoxy and spent the rest of his life campaigning for the destruction of Jewish rights, in other words an anti-semite, and his grandparents were never even told of their jewish ancestry. Lenin didn't know he was part jewish until long after he was a relevant political figure. This doesn't even begin to factor in Stalin who was notorious for killing inner party members with little discrimination, unless you think Stalin was a georgian conspiracy. People are more than their ethnic backgrounds.
>>323407
Actually, people were flocking to the Bolsheviks because the whites were so incompetent that at least in the Bolshevik territory you could live in comparative saftey. The Bolsheviks made heroic attempts to stave off starvation and it's only thanks to them that there was not mass famine across all of Russia during the Civil War. After that of course, there were... problems.
Also, the origins of Communism don't actually start with Marx, they start with Proudhon who was hilariously anti-semitic. Not to mention that Marx was also an anti-semite, read "On the Jewish Question."
>>324712
>jews at all supporting the reds is the Reds were the only ones promising national equality
>the Bolshevik territory you could live in comparative saftey.
>he Bolsheviks made heroic attempts to stave off starvation and it's only thanks to them that there was not mass famine across all of Russia during the Civil War. After that of course, there were... problems.
Holy shit you lefites are so deluded its not even funny.
>>324975
Explain what's wrong with that statement? I said comparative saftey, and the Bolsheviks were the only ones who were going to do away with ethnic discrimination. They ended centuries of ethnic inequality in the Soviet Union and put hundreds of languages to writing, creating many national identities in the process. The Whites were almost entirely a Russian movement, and alienated Ukrainians and Cossacks.
There was no famine during the Civil War thanks largely to the Bolshevik efforts to get food. This is a fact, you can read about it in "A History of the Russian Civil War" by Bruce W Lincoln, who is by no means a Bolshevik and goes into horrific detail about the actions of the Cheka.
>>325009
>I said comparative saftey, and the Bolsheviks were the only ones who were going to do away with ethnic discrimination
I agree here, the Bolsheviks didn't care about ethnicity, they killed regardless of ethnicity, they only cared about quotas.
>put hundreds of languages to writing, creating many national identities in the process.
Exactly, they created national identities out of thin air.
>The Whites were almost entirely a Russian movement, and alienated Ukrainians and Cossacks.
Yes, they were mostly Russians, because they cared about Russia, not some vague concept of "socialism" or "internationalism". The Ukrainians themselves were "Whites" because they fought against the Bolsheviks. The Cossacks were the most ardent supporters of the whites, you are just talking out of your ass. It was the reds who pursued a policy of elimination the Cossacks as an ethnic group, precisely because of their pro white sympathies and their strong religious beliefs.
>Decossackization (Russian: Pacкaзaчивaниe, Raskazachivaniye) was the Bolshevik policy of systematic repressions against Cossacks of the Russian Empire, especially of the Don and the Kuban, between 1917 and 1933 aimed at the elimination of the Cossacks as a separate ethnic, political, and economic entity.
>There was no famine during the Civil War thanks largely to the Bolshevik efforts to get food.
>The Russian famine of 1921, also known as Povolzhye famine, was a severe famine in Bolshevik Russia which began in early spring of 1921 and lasted through 1922. This famine killed an estimated 6 million, primarily affecting the Volga and Ural River regions
>>325056
>The Russian famine of 1921, also known as Povolzhye famine, was a severe famine in Bolshevik Russia which began in early spring of 1921 and lasted through 1922. This famine killed an estimated 6 million, primarily affecting the Volga and Ural River regions
That was after the war ended in Russia, retard, the Whites had already been crushed.
>I agree here, the Bolsheviks didn't care about ethnicity, they killed regardless of ethnicity, they only cared about quotas.
I don't know what you're trying to say, but you're painting the Bolsheviks out to be disney villains or some shit. Even Hitler had reasons.
>Exactly, they created national identities out of thin air.
Today I learned that all 11 soviet republics were created out of thin air.
>Yes, they were mostly Russians, because they cared about Russia, not some vague concept of "socialism" or "internationalism". The Ukrainians themselves were "Whites" because they fought against the Bolsheviks. The Cossacks were the most ardent supporters of the whites, you are just talking out of your ass. It was the reds who pursued a policy of elimination the Cossacks as an ethnic group, precisely because of their pro white sympathies and their strong religious beliefs.
Caring about "Russia" is just as vapid as a concept as caring about "Internationalism." The Cossacks were targeted by Bolsheviks but your oversimplifying things. Denikin notoriously thought the Ukranian and Cossack National projects were completely bunk and this caused a myriad of problems leading to White defeat.
*you're
>>325009
>>325056
Continuing
>The Bolshevik government had requisitioned supplies from the peasantry for little or nothing in exchange. This led peasants to drastically reduce their crop production. According to the official Bolshevik position, which is still maintained by some modern Marxists, the rich peasants (kulaks) withheld their surplus grain in order to preserve their lives;[5] statistics indicate that most of the grain and the other food supplies passed through the black market.[6][7][8] The Bolsheviks believed peasants were actively trying to undermine the war effort
Bloshevik war communism was the reason the scale of the famines were huge. There were many famines during the Soviet regime.
>The Soviet famine of 1932–33 affected the major grain-producing areas of the Soviet Union, leading to the deaths of millions in those areas and severe food insecurity throughout the USSR.The subset of the famine within the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic is called Holodomor or "Execution by Hunger."
>The last major famine to hit the USSR began in July 1946, reached its peak in February–August 1947
Three major famines killing millions within 50 years. Compare this to Russia before communism, you have 2 great famines in the space of 300 years. The first and greatest was during the time of troubles, and the second in 1891.
The Soviet economy only revitalized after the NEP which allowed free trade.
>By 1921, the Bolsheviks were winning the Russian Civil War and foreign troops were beginning to withdraw, yet Bolshevik leaders continued to keep tight control of the economy through the policy of War Communism.[4]
>Production of cotton, for example, had fallen to 5 percent and iron to 2 percent of the pre-war level, coincided with droughts in 1920 and 1921 and the Russian famine of 1921.[5]
>n February 1921, there were over one hundred peasant uprisings
>>325124
>That was after the war ended in Russia, retard, the Whites had already been crushed.
Thats what makes it worse, and the reason is the horrible economic policy that the Bolsheviks pursued. It crushed the economy read it in my previous post.
>don't know what you're trying to say, but you're painting the Bolsheviks out to be disney villains or some shit. Even Hitler had reasons.
>What is the Red Terror
>Today I learned that all 11 soviet republics were created out of thin ai
Most of them were literally made out of thing air.
>Caring about "Russia" is just as vapid as a concept as caring about "Internationalism."
It isn't, tribalism is very important to people, as is language, religion and culture, internationalism goes against human nature, as does communism.
>Denikin notoriously thought the Ukranian and Cossack National projects were completely bunk and this caused a myriad of problems leading to White defeat.
And the thoughts of Denkin are oppression of Cossacks but Soviet policy aimed at killing Cossack identity is somehow oversimplifying:
Its true the monarchists didn't consider the Ukrainians as a separate nationality, but this is completely irrelevant.
>>323407
The Bolsheviks were irrelevant in February. They gained ground continuously to the July Days due to their anti-war line. After the July Days they scrabbled to regain ground. Ground, here, being positions in the geographic soviets, and influence in the workplace soviets.
The Bolshevik's "enemy" was nominally the bourgeoisie, not Tzarism.
For fucks sake how fucking ignorant are you?
