Has Islam always been a violent religion in the history of civilization?
>>1417055
It's about as violent as any other Semitic religion.
>>1417060
Here we fucking go again, can't you fucking see how retarded you sound?
>>1417055
Now let's look at the loving comments Christians left for the Orlando Shooting victims...
>>1417060
Yes who could forget all the atrocities carried out in the name of Judaism and Christianity in the last 20 years.
>>1417070
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence#United_States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_the_Patriarchs_massacre
>>1417063
Funnily enough if you looked it up you'd find that the majority of hateful comments came from Muslims.
Thanks for proving my point
>>1417079
M8 they're africans they shouldn't count in any of the religious kill scores
>>1417060
This.
The semetic religions are inherently violent... One need only look at their respective texts to see that.
>>1417083
>Muh Christians are never violent.
>Nuh_uh
Same semitic asshole, different shit.
>>1417082
>a few deaths here and there
>""""atrocities"""""
Both of them pale compared to Muslims, and that's even excluding 9/11
>>1417070
>20 years
Do the Balkans count?
>>1417070
>in the last 20 years.
But OP said "in the history of civilization"
When will /his/ realize that being a fedora atheist is part of the problem?
>>1417055
Behold!
Bait!
Does OP have any OC?
Probably not.
The answer is yes.
Read:
"After the Prophet: The Epic Story of the Shia-Sunni Split in Islam" (2009) by Lesley Hazleton
>pic related
>>1417091
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_genocide
> a few deaths here and there
>>1417092
Islam just has the guts.
You guys are just limited to being assholes in the internet but deep down you wish you could kill all gays/muslims and put women in their rightful place.
>>1417099
> They were ethnic, not religious
Oh sure, when Christians are the perpetrators we can relativize to no end.
>>1417108
First of all, that's a lie
Second of all, I'd rather have 1000 people thinking of murdering someone, than 1 person actually doing it
>>1417108
>and put women in their rightful place.
H-How did you know about my innermost fetish?
>be me, Mohamed
>be desert merchant and warlord
>violence and war is all i ever knew, living in surroundings where people literally kill each other over water
>know how to read and write since i trade and shit, every other day mingle with Jews
>one day a copy of Jewish Torah comes into hands
>decide to read it because why not
>datsumgudshit.jpg
>be interested, start looking for more
>find out there's another version of jewish tales called Christianity
>read Bible
>this is interesting as fuck
>start thinking a bit
>how about i create my own religion based on this stuff, i'll be famous and rich for sure
>decide i declare myself prophet
>decide to copy the parts of Torah and Bible which i like most
>to spice it up i write some random repetitive stuff where i write about myself
>start spreading my new religion
>Fucking tribe leaders tell me to GTFO
>run away
>ohnowitson.jpg
>start being more violent because that's the only way people will convert to my autistic beliefs.
>start beheading people and shit
>other arabs like it because they're all cruel savage people who respect nothing but brute force
>they join me en masse now
>eventually conquer all of Arabia
>give instructions to my successors to continue violently spreading my religion because otherwise no one will ever take it seriously
>>1417118
>of ethnic proportion
You mean epic proportions
>>1417107
>Genocide
>>1417118
I assume the widespread destruction of mosques during this "ethnic" genoicide was entirely unrelated to religion as well?
>>1417126
spotted the serb
>>1417108
No, not really.
Not all of us are sick cunts like yourself, mr projector.
>>1417125
Nah I meant that it was ethnically motivated, not religiously
>>1417134
The large majority of Bosniaks were Muslim, therefore it was their cultural heritage.
And you'd be correct if you said that they only destroyed mosques, but they destroyed all kinds of cultural heritage
>>1417141
I wasn't asking you, I know you meant epic proportions.
>>1417143
No I know what I said senpai, I just didn't say it properly
>>1417141
by your twisted logic, none of the terrorist attacks carried out over the last number of years have been religiously motivated either, then, since we can relativize those as well.
How about we call them political acts of violence that just happen to be carried out by Muslims?
>>1417152
Shut the fuck up the Bosnian genocide was one of epic proportions
>>1417095
Since when do we do exactly what OP wants? The answer is yes in any case. From the very first beginning Islam has been about mindless violence, rape and total domination of the mind.
At they are still at it. At least Christianity got its shit mostly together.
>>1417141
literally the only thing the whole yugoslav shitshow happened was because they were muslim, there is no such thing as a bosnian ethnicity. serbs are subhuman just like that
>>1417152
You know what else is of epic proportions? ;)
>>1417167
> islam was strongly connected, but not the cause
Right, just like how the 9/11 attacks were a political statement about Israel and Palestine which just happened to be strongly connected to Islam.
And how Battaclan was a political statement about France's involvement in the war on Islamic State which just happpened to be perpetrated by Muslims.
I'm all for a serious debate about the problems of Islam but shoving your head in the sand and claiming that other religions don't have problems is not helping anyone, other than perhaps your own sensitivity and sense of self-righteousness
>>1417164
This. Alija Izetbegović literally wanted Sharia in Bosnia. """Bosniaks""" are just Croatian/Serbian Muslims. That's literally it.
>>1417194
If Serbs really fought it for religious reasons then why did they indiscriminately kill them instead of converting them?
Why did they rape and impregnate female Bosniaks so they can create a new bloodline instead of converting them as well?
>other religions don't have problems is not helping anyone, other than perhaps your own sensitivity and sense of self-righteousness
Literally no one is saying that other religions don't have problems, it's just that Islam has far bigger and more relevant ones that need to be solved right now
>>1417198
>"""Bosniaks""" are just Croatian/Serbian Muslims. That's literally it.
Then why are they called differently YOU FUCKING IMBECILE
>>1417070
>in the last 20 years.
is that all that matters, 20 years?
I guess in 1939 1919 didn't matter then and WW2 just happened for.... no reason
>>1417218
That's what matters in the now
>>1417121
Third line is completely wrong.
>>1417103
Fedoras are obnoxious but at least they don't kill anyone you fucking scum
>>1417212
Fucking yugoshits stop ruining threads no one cares about your irrelevant part of the world
>>1417055
>>1417060
Religions aren't inherently violent, just Semites. A Semitic religion put into the hands of non-Semites results in a far less violent and more civilized institution. Regardless of how much violence or peace there is in dogma, it's the culture that determines which to follow and which to ignore, and no amount of mental gymastics or contradictions will stand in its way to justify that culture.
>>1417262
>Religions aren't inherently violent, just Semites
>what is mesoamerican religion
The reality of why the Arabs expanded out of Arabia, which critics of Islam do not want to hear, is that the Arabs simply had to be sent out of Arabia.
In 632 Arabia had finally unified under Islam, the first time Arabia had ever been unified. This only happened through war, and the tribal Arabs had already revolted once in the Ridda wars. There was something like 100,000 armed tribal Arab warriors now sat around in Arabia.
Another civil war was imminent, fragmentation was unavoidable except through one means. To send all those troops out to take down the empires of the world. So that is what Caliph Bakr did. There was no real Islamic incentive to do it, but without question the new religion was used to inspire and motivate the troops.
>>1417268
A religion reflecting the violence of another violent culture. I didn't mean to say only Semites are violent (or that all who speak a Semitic language are violent).
Culture comes first, and religion is used to sanctify culture and keep it stable over several generations.
>>1417055
>Has Islam always been a violent religion in the history of civilization?
>first thing Mohammed does is conquer and purge Mecca and Medina
What the fuck do you think?
>>1417281
>>first thing Mohammed does is conquer and purge Mecca and Medina
Things that never happened.
Terrorism in the EU 2006-2013
>>1417292
Terrorism in the EU 2010-2016 (incomplete)
Green = Islamic
Red = Leftist
Islam is much more violent in these days than any other religion.
>>1417300
More like the most populous religion with the most economically and politically disillusioned followers and with the fewest outlets for violence outside of religious terrorism.
>>1417317
Fuck off muhammed
>>1417300
yes its the 21st century the islamic world is going through great change
Islam is only violent nowdays because of some western countries fault.
Sponsoring dictators that fucked their populations time and time again.
What this fucking idiots conservatives can't understand is that for every muslim killed, it will only generate more hate that will spawn the next generation of terrorists.
What we have to do is cut all ties. Let them be, let them have their history, their own choices, kill each other, i don't give a fuck, but ffs, let them alone. Enough of interfering in their history and forcing or own choices like it's the best thing ever.
If they attack, we defend ourselves and that's it. No bussiness meetings, no more buying their oil, no more trades, no more tourism passports, no more immigrants.
One day, perhaps they get fed up and then we can start a dialogue again.
>>1417285
So your argument consists of 'nuh-uh'. Always nice to see an intelligent discussion.
>>1417331
You flat out made something up, what other reply do you want?
>>1417055
Well, the Umyad conquests after the death of their prophet were pretty violent.....
>>1417330
Are you shitting me? You're telling me that they are attacking France because France(a country who refused to go into Iraq) installed dictators.
What utter bullshit. Don't lie to yourself the muslims hate those who don't share their values. We need to hit back hard.
>>1417338
No he didn't. That's litterally what happened.
>>1417345
You do not know how the world works.
Creating wild instability created nutjobs who drive trucks through parades.
>>1417342
>Well, the Umyad conquests after the death of their prophet were pretty violent....
By medieval standards they were extremely peaceful.
>>1417351
Fucking point and laugh at this fucking sandnigger
>>1417362
>I have no argument except insults
>>1417365
Alright I am gonna argue in your style, here have this argument:
Muslims are evil, all their intentions are wrong, muslims never did anything good
Christians are good, a bad Christian has never existed, the crusades were just a holiday trip
>>1417347
Are we going to keep at this or are you going to provide a source?
>>1417373
This means nothing.
>>1417060
was jesus violent? no
was mohammed violent? yes
thus christianity is not violent while islam is, as christianity and islam are supposed to be the continuation of what their prophets tought, and to follow their principles
>b-but muh books that could have bern written by anyone
not an argument
this can easily be confirmed through statistics like pewpoll while there's no statistics which shows that the majority of christians are inherently violent or extremists
i'll /thread myself because all the apologists will casually ignore any post which they can't refute (unless they can't [delete] it of course)
>>1417393
I am imitating the style in which you argue, according to you muslim have never done anything wrong, and islam has zero flaws
>>1417347
Not, it literally didn't, you made it up.
Muhammad was invited to be the leader of Medina which is how he got that position. The conquest of Mecca resulted in 12 deaths, and no forced conversions or even feuds.
>>1417401
>was mohammed violent? yes
citation needed
>>1417401
The Pew statistics show a (large as hell) minority of Muslims are violent, mostly in poor Sunni countries where Salafism is prominent.
>>1417402
>according to you muslim have never done anything wrong, and islam has zero flaws
I said the Ummayad conquests were comparatively peaceful for medieval warfare. Please kindly go fuck yourself with your retarded brain.
>>1417402
>I am imitating the style in which you argue
How, when he never even used the word evil or spoke in anything resembling black and white morality.
>>1417406
Sandnigger strikes again, fucking IP ban this guy, I bet he sympathizes with IS too
>>1417401
>as christianity and islam are supposed to be the continuation of what their prophets tought
That's not what they are at all. This is how eastern religions work, but not Abrahamic faiths.
>>1417416
waiting for citation
>>1417407
When you compare that to more stable, secular countries, the stats decline considerably
It's not an Islam problem, it's a "the West refuses to stop helping Saudi Arabia spread its fundamentalism for some undiscernable reason"
>>1417418
>samefag
>two posts literally a second apart
>>1417423
We need the middle east to be a shitshow for it to be excusable to use it as a stomping ground.
If we can't justify our military expenditures, our economy will literally tank similar to the soviet's. Not as badly, but for similar reasons.
>>1417060
>>1417422
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Muhammad
>inb4 wikipedia
it's full of sources
>>1417443
What did Moses do.
>>1417407
see
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g7TAAw3oQvg
or any graphical view of the statistics for that matter
https://m.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/3srdq9/the_moderate_side_of_islam/?utm_source=mweb_redirect&compact=true
yes fuck reddit but i'm on the electrical nose so no pics
>>1417447
waiting for citation of personal violence.
>>1417345
CAR, Mali, Algeria
look up those countries and come back to the discussion once you realize that France is both a colonial empire these days, and have committed great atrocities in their old colonies
>>1417427
not an argument carl
>>1417467
that's why there's weekly greek terrorism in turkey, as they were colonized under a far longer time, right?
>>1417449
not exist
>>1417478
>we weren't talking about personal violence we were talking about violence in general
Show me where Muhammad was violent, cite it.
>>1417463
He was a pedo and a rapist. source: the Quran
>>1417485
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_career_of_Muhammad
>The Caravan raids refer to a series of raids which Muhammad and his Companions participated in
this is just one of them
>>1417481
Are you really this dumb?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence
>>1417450
Those are referring to the same pew study that I am, I invite whoever who has it (I know they do) to post it so people ITT can see (I'm on my phone, don't have patience to go source hunting)
With that said, you'll find what I said to be the case. The research was conducted in poor countries under Saudi influence, and the 'extremists' wane when you get to Lebanon and Azerbaijan, who are completely out of the Saudi's fundamentalism range, which correlates with the idea that it's Salafism, spread by US allied Saudis, not Islam that's the issue
Also sharia law is subjective, the laws aren't static, for future reference.
Islam is fucking disgusting and rotten to the core
>Death on adultery
Hm, ok, a bit harsh but adultery is immoral, ok I get it
>Allowed to 4 wives
Well what is the fucking point then? Your families will be disfunctional anyway.
>>1417494
And yet it is justified to take back your stolen property.
>>1417164
Why are we subhuman?
Do you know anything about Balkans history?
Muslims in Balkans aren't some peaceful victims like narrative in 90's made you think. They're probably biggest butchers in Balkans history, when you take everything into account.
Anyway, reasons are religious, and in past they were socioeconomic too. Muslims were upper class and Christians were lower class, for the most part.
Is there any smart muslim in this planet?
>>1417513
>property
memes aside, you just admitted he used violence, justified or not
When did they kill all the Sufis?
I think that's around the time it became irrecoverably bloodthirsty and primitive.
>>1417503
did that happen this year, and was it terrorism? if not, it's irrelevant
your argument was that france had it coming because they ruled over some african tribes for a few decades, shouldn't the terrorism in turkey by greeks be way more intense then as they were brutally ruled by the turks for centuries, while no terrorism has occured?
>>1417512
>Well what is the fucking point then?
To stop widows becoming totally destitute. That was the original point, and Islam discourages taking wives for the sake of wives. But that doesnt stop them obviously.
>>1417447
Most of those criticise him for being a polygamist, which he was, or claiming he was a prophet, which is subjective
The actual criticism lies in his treatment of his enemies in war. The Massacre of the Banu Qurayza is narrated in only 2/6 of the Sunni's respected Hadith collections, and as seen in the article it's already been disputed on its historicity
Another point is his use of slaves, which was common in that time. However, they don't say how many slaves Muhammad and his family freed (14,000) and that he adopted one of those slaves as his son.
>>1417527
The argument is that Islamic terrorism is the result of several western invasions spanning a century.
Which it is.
>>1417532
Yeah he also used one of those slave children as a rapeslave
>>1417534
It's more that they constantly fellate Saud's rotting micropenis
>>1417541
no?
>>1417541
Source?
MIDF in full force ITT
>>1417553
Which sura, which ayat
Or save my time and say "I don't have a source"
>>1417553
Ok, show me the verse.
>>1417534
And then your argument falls as they're mostly targetting countries which had no stake in the wars
it's clearly acts of aggression to affect the stability for the current ethnical and cultural conquest
>>1417547
>MIDF
Nah, they're just ordinary liberals who are afraid of being called racists.
They'll regret that when when the West is no longer the House of War, but the House of Islam.
>>1417571
Believe it or not but 4chan has a shitload of muslims, just look on /int/. Those in /mena/ general even praised the Orlando massacre.
>>1417567
Yes, Twelver Shia
>>1417571
>Nah, they're just ordinary liberals who are afraid of being called racists.
Mate I've been full /pol/tard and now i just dont care and want to love everyone.
>>1417576
>Those in /mena/ general even praised the Orlando massacre.
Not really surprised tbqh famalam. I would be more surprised if a Muslim wasn't happy when homosexuals were murdered.
>>1417578
that period should have bern over in yor teen years
just accept that some ideas/ideologies are inherently bad, a person with aids wouldn't be so bad to fuck if she didn't have aids, like the mena region wasn't bad in comparison to other areas before islam
>>1417596
>just accept that some ideas/ideologies are inherently bad
You know when you grow out your teens you'll come to see that theres no such thing as good and bad, just a million shades of gray.
>>1417596
>like the mena region wasn't bad in comparison to other areas before islam
It was a dusty backwater doing nothing under the Byzantines, the Caliphates completely reinvigorated Mena
>>1417596
Tbf you can't whine about something being in turmoil when the US govt bombs secular leaders at the beck and call of a known fundamentalist nation and be surprised after the 3rd time this has happened that the problem persists
>>1417578
Too bad everyone doesn't want to love you back.
>>1417558
Not him, but Quran 4:24
>Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those (captives and slaves) whom your right hands possess.
That's a permission of sex slavery.
Now pedophilia:
>The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.
- Sahih Bukhari 58:234
>The Prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were Junub. During the menses, he used to order me to put on an Izar (dress worn below the waist) and used to fondle me. While in Itikaf, he used to bring his head near me and I would wash it while I used to be in my periods (menses).
- Sahih Bukhari 6:298
>>1417609
You said the Quran allows pedophilia, which it does not and you have not proved.
>>1417608
Well not denying that, I'd say the US played an enormous part in starting this mess we are in now
Obama literally armed IS for fucks sake
>>1417613
>You said
Which part of "not him" do you not understand you goatfucking retard? Get back to your English class.
>>1417598
I guess it depends from what viewpoint you look from, cutting your dick off would be positive if you viewed it as positive, but objectively it wouldn't be good in the long run for a nation if everyone did that
>>1417561
>And then your argument falls as they're mostly targetting countries which had no stake in the wars
Besides airstrikes against these terrorist groups in Nigeria, Libya, and Syria that is.
>>1417622
>but objectively it wouldn't be good in the long run for a nation if everyone did that
It would benefit so many African countries.
>>1417600
egypt was one of the most prosperous areas under rome, with huge export capacity
syria wasn't that bad either in comparison to other roman areas
>>1417609
>Not him, but Quran 4:24
Nothing in this substantiates the claim that:
>Yeah he also used one of those slave children as a rapeslave
>>1417638
It says nothing about children, but it does outright permit female sexual slaves.
>>1417634
>egypt was one of the most prosperous areas under rome
Yes under Pax Romana, not under the Byzantines, it was an overtaxed hasbeen. Syria was a terrible borderzone for centuries too.
You people always do this argument, saying the ME was so good before Islam. No, it was shit for centuries before Islam, its heydey was mid antiquity.
>>1417634
This was true perhaps in the 3rd or 4th century, but by the 6th and 7th the Eastern Mediterranean had begun to collapse economically and demographically.
>>1417644
>It says nothing about children, but it does outright permit female sexual slaves.
Which says nothing about Muhammad personally using 'one of those slave children (who?) as a rapeslave'.
>>1417624
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War
I don't see france in the roster list
>>1417644
The general unspoken rule among the worlds premodern cultures is a woman is an adult when she has her first period and is then fuckable.
Aisha had the misfortune of having her period at 9 years old. This is why despite Muhammad marrying her at 6, he didnt fuck her til 9.
>>1417653
He said terrorist groups, as in Boko Haram, ISIS, the fundie groups in the Libyan Civil War, etc.
>>1417652
I wasn't the guy you semen slurpers argued with who made that claim. I just wanted to shed some light on islamic practices, now scram.
>>1417653
They target westerners you fool not Frenchmen.
There just happens to be a large muslim population in France. To them, French are westerns as much as all muslims are arabs to your ignorant ass.
Cultural arabs are about 20% of muslims
Ethnic arabs are about 5% of muslims
>>1417660
I know that. I just called you out on not answering the question and trying to slip bullshit by everyone's radar.
>>1417665
that doesn't justify anything
>>1417672
Who the flying fuck said it did? I'm just explaining why they attack france you bloody cretin.
>>1417609
>Quran 4:24
The Bible and Torah have similar verses regarding slavery. Solomon had many concubines
However, the family of Muhammad denounced slavery and freed 14,000 themselves. Muhammad said "There are three who will not receive pardon from me on the Day of Judgement: he who enslaves a free human, he who profits from the sale of that slave, and he who eats from the fruits of labor of slavery"
Also rape is not allowed in Islam, even if sex slaves:
>But let them who find not [the means for] marriage abstain [from sexual relations] until Allah enriches them from His bounty. And those who seek a contract [for eventual emancipation] from among whom your right hands possess - then make a contract with them if you know there is within them goodness and give them from the wealth of Allah which He has given you. And do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, if they desire chastity, to seek [thereby] the temporary interests of worldly life. And if someone should compel them, then indeed, Allah is [to them], after their compulsion, Forgiving and Merciful.
Quran 24:33
As for Aisha, Hadith from back then are unreliable in regards to her age: modern scholars have estimated her to be married at 12 and consummated her marriage at 16
Also that was (supposed to be) his wife speaking about him. You may find it odd culturally, but she didn't mind, otherwise she wouldn't be talking about it--which is another thing, I doubt someone who was married to a prophet would be actually tell others her sexual liaisons.
>>1417675
are you getting a wee bit mad nigel
>>1417513
>>1417513
'Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.'
Sura 9:29
>>1417748
C O N T E X T
>>1417755
The context doesn't matter here. What we have is your 'prophet', supposedly the most perfect man to ever live, giving orders to fight and subjugate just like any other warlord in human history. Nothing about Muhammed is even remotely divine.
But since you will still rattle on about context, here is some other parts of the Sura:
>And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. 9:5
>Fight them; Allah will punish them by your hands and will disgrace them and give you victory over them and satisfy the breasts of a believing people 9:14
I don't know what 'context' can justify this behavior. If Muhammed was a prophet couldn't he just call down pillars of fire upon all his enemies? Why does he need to tell his followers to do the dirty work?
>>1417755
>In the last day
That is a context, when the judgement time has started somewhere in the future they believe all people have to obey them.
They just tolerate you for the moment at best.
>>1417748
>And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah. Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.
9:6
This Sura is in specific context; the polytheists broke the Treaty of Hudaiybiyyah and began killing Muhammad's people indiscriminately. This Sura allows the Muslims to fight (those people, specifically) 'after the sacred months have passed,' it does not allow Muslims of all times to kill someone whenever
Please look at the parameters of the Treaty of Hudaybiyyah; Muhammad had a force outnumbering greatly that of the Meccans, yet elected to make peace. Why would he do that if he's just going to kill them all later?
>>1417783
>The context doesn't matter here
Of course it does, you can't take a single line from an entire book and say it means something without considering the context its in.
Which by the way is in the context of an existing war where treaties have been broken by the enemy several times.
>>1417784
No, it isn't, learn some early Islamic history. It's a war between Medina and Mecca.
>>1417755
This is the best apologist meme. Just say the word "context" and you can justify anything, like the genocide of the Canaanites or anything under discussion here.
>>1417787
Muhammed was a warlord - he does whatever is necessary to gain power. Why does he need an army to spread his religion anyway? Shouldn't it be self-evident from all the miracles and accurate prophecies he was performing - oh wait, he never did anything even remotely miraculous. Face it, Muhammed was a warlord like any other. Also:
> 'If ever I take an oath to do something, and later on I find that it is more beneficial to do something different, I will do the thing which is better' -Bukhari, vol. 4, Hadith No. 361
>implying treaties and oaths meant shit to Muhammed
>>1417814
I don't know much about Bukhari, because my sect doesn't recognize its authenticity, but were that the case, he wouldn't have waited for the other side to break the Treaty of Hudaiybiyyah, he wouldn't have even brokered it in the first place.
As for his miracles, there are many accounts of his miracles: the Night of the Miraj, causing a cup to overflow with water stopping the Muslims from dehydrating, etc. you're more than welcome to look into it further.
>>1417799
>'This is what I command for all my followers for all time: Kill everyone that disagrees with me or looks at you funny'
>you: context ;)
There is only so far context can take you. Muhammed was a violent warlord who did nothing to prove he was divine. If he could cause plauges to occur, command pillars of fire, and do other great works then I would have to accept he was a prophet dealing out divine justice. As it is, he did nothing to convince anyone he was from God. If he was from heaven, why was his message spread through worldly means?
>>1417814
Also all his wars were defensive (not his "successors'"). If the polytheists never attacked him, we probably wouldn't even be discussing Islam, it'd be contained in the Hijaz.
>>1417814
>Muhammed was a warlord
Muhammad was a Statesman, he was leader of the city state of Medina. Statesmen cannot be a warlord by definition.
>>1417801
Why do idiots like you think context isn't a real thing? It's the most logical thing in the world.
>>1417837
Protip, religion isn't real, of course he couldn't do miracles. Regardless the context disproves your claim of kill non muslims all the time blah blah
http://www.lexpress.fr/actualites/1/societe/nice-le-tueur-un-homme-decrit-par-ses-voisins-comme-taciturne-et-violent_1812906.html
>Mohamed Lahouaiej-Bouhlel never went to the mosque and drank beer. (...) He frequently had seizures. When he separated from his wife, he defecated everywhere, butchered her daughter's Teddy and lacerated mattresses
Hm wasn't he just a crazy person rather than a religious fanatic, /his/?
>>1417867
I can quote equally credible sources to prove Africans really wuz Kings and that the Jews really did 9/11.
>>1417834
Your sect disregards historical evidence regarding the life of Muhammed? Well that's convenient. Also:
>Night of the Miraj
>Nobody else witnessed it but Muhammed
>Splitting the moon
>even many schnoalrs think it's an allegory
>the Quran
>God totally spoke to me guyz ;)
>food miracles
>where have I heard that one before?
Anyway, all of these miracles are from the hadiths, which apparently can be disregarded completely at one time and cherry picked at another. So if you accept these you also need to accept that Muhammed also told women to breastfeed men (Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3424)
>>1417882
L'Express is one of the most famous French newspaper though. It's also very trustworthy.
Why the fuck do all of the whooping nationalistic fucks ignore the material conditions behind why Islam is associated with violence?
Apparently geopolitics is entirely fucking irrelevant, apparently the west's multi-decades long colonial aspirations in oil producing countries, apparently the literal destruction of Afghanistan at the hands of the Soviets and later Americans is just nothing, it's all a fucking book that makes these people mad, nothing at all to do with any of that
I don't fucking get it, how can you be so fucking retarded?
>>1417891
No, we have our own Hadith collections and we have a more rigorous process of authenticating hadiths, depending on the narrator and all that. Also there are many narrations shared by the sects, though I can't say I know what situation that was narrated in in Bukhari, nor do I acknowledge its authenticity as it is contradictory to other parts of Muhammad's life.
As for your criticism of the miracles, read: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracles_of_Muhammad
Many were done in front of his Companions. If you dont accept them that's fine, but he still did miracles that others testified to in both Sunni hadiths and otherwise.
>>1417910
Muhammad never performed any miracles, it's written through the Quran. His miracle was the Quran.
This is how you know Muhammad actually existed, because the Quran is partly him defending his prophethood.
>>1417891
>historical evidence regarding the life of Muhammed
Modern historians don't consider the hadith historical evidence of the life of Muhammad. Neither did Classical or Medieval Muslims, for that matter.
>>1417897
It clearly isn't, at least in this regard, as it's presenting some information that simply isn't true.
>>1417900
Islamic violence predates colonialism, stop being so west-centric you neo-colonialist shitlord.
>>1417917
Manifest destiny is also a "Christian doctrine", if you extend the realm of "religious doctrine" as far as people like you do for Islam.
Christian violence literally amounted to genocide and extinction of peoples and cultures, Islam doesn't even compare.
>>1417917
Everybody was violent in the past. Everyone is today. Stop being a hypocrite.
>>1417916
>as it's presenting some information that simply isn't true
So what's your source then? You can't assume something is false just because it doesn't fit your opinion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Express
>>1417914
Many of his miracles are mentioned in the Quran; i.e. Blinding his enemy at the Battle of Badr
If he has no miracles beyond the Quran, that means the Quran is lying, nullifying that as a miracle
>>1417092
>when there is literally a weekly terrorist attack in the name of islam at the moment.
Yeah for the past couple of decades at most. When you rack up the total number of dead at the hands of either Christians or Muslims in the name of their religion the numbers aren't nearly as wildly different.
>>1417930
>appeal to authority
It's false because it has no historical basis, and I can't refute something that you tell me without any info beyond that. The burden of proof is on you.
Muhammad lived 10ft away from his mosque (located inside the modern Masjid al-Nabi) and would attend frequently, for example.
>>1417953
>When you rack up the total number of dead at the hands of either Christians or Muslims in the name of their religion the numbers aren't nearly as wildly different.
I've seen some pretty bold false claims on this board, but I think this one takes the cake.
>>1417922
>didn't compare
where's the byzantines? oh right they were genocided and their culture is dead
the PC apologist police, man,
replace the brain with turds
>>1417963
Then why assume anything about him being a radical muslim if you can't prove it to me either?
http://www.lepoint.fr/societe/nice-le-tueur-un-homme-decrit-par-ses-voisins-comme-taciturne-et-violent-15-07-2016-2054750_23.php
http://lci.tf1.fr/france/faits-divers/attaque-de-nice-des-papiers-d-identite-au-nom-d-un-franco-tunisien-8766322.html
http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2016/07/15/01016-20160715ARTFIG00268-attentat-de-nice-le-tueur-un-homme-renferme-connu-pour-des-faits-de-violence.php
http://www.francetvinfo.fr/faits-divers/terrorisme/attaque-au-camion-a-nice/qui-etait-mohamed-lahouaiej-bouhlel-le-terroriste-presume-de-nice_1548369.html
http://www.europe1.fr/faits-divers/qui-etait-le-tueur-de-nice-2800882
Really, fuck you, literally every French newspaper confirms it
>>1417070
>/his/ Discussion of events between 1996-2016
>>1418008
probably because he/his parents came from a muslim country, he's got a muslim name
either way it shows that multiculturalism is a failure of an ideology
>>1418008
Lmao I think we had an issue of a language barrier
I thought you were talking about the Prophet Muhammad, not the guy who did the attack in Nice
I sincerely apologize
>>1418008
also citing newspapers for something which isn't PC approved, might aswell cite tumblr as a source
>>1418029
>either way it shows that multiculturalism is a failure of an ideology
Here we go again
>>1417910
Ok, how can you tell if a particular saying is authentic? Muhammed telling a lie is a mundane and realistic event, but you say it didn't happen. Muhammed flying off to Mecca is completely incredible and unlikely to have happened, and you accept it. Who came up with your historical method? Walt Disney?
>>1418044
Who narrated it? What was the context of the narration? Etc.
While something may be mundane, it can still be identified as something Muhammad actually said.
Many of the Sunni Hadith collections were influenced by the Umayyads, who had an agenda of their own, as evidenced by the killing of the author of Sahih an-Nasai by Umayyad soldiers for refusing to cooperate and fabricate stories about Mu'awiyah.
It was born during violent times surrounded by violent countries. In order to be taken seriously on the world stage it needed to exert military might. However after establishing itself, there are definite periods were it cooled its jets. Mainly trade in SE Asia.
>>1418055
>>1418055
>Who narrated it
How can you even know that the author got the right chain of transmission? The author could have just made it up!
>While something may be mundane, it can still be identified as something Muhammad actually said.
Yes, I'm saying it's more likely that a mundane and common event is historical. So if you just say 'he didn't say that because my sect doesn't accept this evidence', you're giving a bad argument.
Also, most if not all your hadiths came about centuries after Muhammad died. How can you trust them at all? Doesn't it worry you that non-Muslim scholars do not accept the hadiths as even remotely historical?
>>1418081
I wasnt denying Bukharis credibility, just my unfamiliarity with the text.
As for how we check authenticity, l leave that to you to research
>>1418103
Can you recommend a good (preferably secular) book on the history of early Islam and the hadiths?
>>1418132
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Montgomery_Watt
>>1418136
excellent, thank you
>>1418001
Stop being an autistic retard and read a book for once
>>1417055
>he fell for the 'religious terrorism is actually about religion and not about advancing a political goal' meme
If you think that ISIS isn't a direct political reaction to western interventionism and actually all about muh holy land and muh infidels, you're a fool. It isn't a coincidence that the most of the people who join ISIS or commit lone wolf attacks are in their 20s, and not particularly religious or observant. The idea of a caliphate is just a front for a bunch of angry Arabs who are pissed that westerners have been meddling in their affairs and ruining everything in their region since the fall of the Ottoman Empire. That's why they want Europe and the US to send in the tanks. Not because they think they can win by triggering some prophecy, but because instead of killing other Arabs they'll finally get to kill the people they see as responsible for their region'sstatus as a complete shithole.
Yes, the Islamic invasions stopped only after WW1 with the fall of the Ottoman Empire which was the last Islamic great power.
>>1418331
Most Middle-Easterners welcomed Western intervention with local authorities supporting them as well. Your average Afghan was glad to see ISAF troops there. Islam is a religion with conquest as a part of its doctrine. The West meddled in a lot of the world, but it's only the Muslims that are going apeshit crazy over it.
>>1417281
>muh purges
Where did this meme come from?
When the muslims took Mecca only the opposing soldiers were killed.
>>1418349
If it's really about Islam, then why is it that they made a huge deal about destroying the border wall between Syria and Iraq? Their grievances are political, not religious. Sykes-Picot, the Franco-Syrian war,the support for Israel, the US propping up and then tearing down dictators whenever it be hooves us to do so, and the war in Iraq are the reasons ISIS fighters are angry at the west. The early history of Islam and the conquests of the first caliphate are just the trappings they drape themselves in to legitimize themselves. They're no more Islamist than the Nazis post night of the long knives were socialist.
>>1417450
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSPvnFDDQHk
This is good too.
>>1417978
again, im pretty sure you dont know what african christians do in shithole places like somalia
>>1418029
>multiculturalism is a failure of an ideology
what fucking ideology? its just people migrating to other countries, not everything you dislike is a grand movement to destroy you
>>1420059
Multiculturalism isn't being culturally diverse, but an attitude to that diversity. Hence the -ism.
>"Christians be gud boize"
>"Christians dindu nuffin!"
>"It be the Muslim man who oppressin us!"
>>1417978
I know, Christian will be so much higher
>>1417055
>>1420203
Islamic terrorism started 25 years ago (not true by the way) because before then Islamic violence was state-backed
>>1420203
>US started invading countries
>started
>>1417978
yuh, the christian religion was much worse.
>>1418029
Should we be voting Trump as well?
>>1417092
>Various scientific surveys of Iraqi deaths resulting from the first four years of the Iraq War estimated that between 151,000 and over one million Iraqis died as a result of conflict during this time.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa
George Bush: 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq'
You're right son! There's totally no Christian element to western terrorism in the Middle East!
>inb4 this isn't "true" Christianity
>>1420085
story behind pic?
>>1420451
the eternal Walloon strikes again
>>1420448
So did we invade Iraq because of Oil or did we invade Iraq because of Christianity? Which is it, dems?
>>1417324
And what? We just suffer through it while Muslims figure it all out a few 70, 80 or 100 lives at a time?
>>1420533
Yes, interfering is what's making this whole thing worse. If this is their 30 years war then let it happen.
>>1420535
If this is their 30 years war then they should keep it contained in their shitty little countries instead of spilling over
>>1417324
m8 they've already gone through their own reformation, it's called wahhabism, only they went in the past instead of forward
>>1420539
Are you fucking kidding me, you cuckolded prick? We just sit back and take it while some nut barrels down a French street running over innocent toddlers, strollers, and women? We just sit back and apologise while they shoot up a concert and desecrate the corpses of innocent people by gouging their eyes out and stuffing their severed testicles in their mouth? The fuck is wrong with you? What made you this way, huh? Where you can just look at something so horrific and appalling and think "yeah, I'm willing to compromise and accept that"
>>1420561
Pay him no mind, he's the classic weakling that buries his head in the sand and hopes it all just goes away
>>1420577
>He said from his computer screen in a comfortable environmentally controlled building afforded with 1st world luxury.
Why aren't you out fighting ISIS with the Kurds? They'd take you, provided you're not totally unfit. They need the men.
>>1420592
Because this isn't my fight? I don't care anymore about Iraq or Syria. Our concern was with Saddam and the Ba'ath secularists in Iraq. We tried to keep the country together for 10 years and it failed. If Shias and Sunnis wanna blast each other into the stone age then quite frankly thats not something I'm willing to kill or die for.
I mean, this all started because Saudi Arabia wanted us to help defend them against Iraq in Desert Shield which outraged Osama Bin Laden and sparked a whole chain of events that have led us to where we are now. Osama's dead, Saddams dead, turns out Iraq and the other Middle East countries can't be ruled without their Gaddafis, Mubaraks, Husseins and Assads.
>>1420638
>We tried to keep the country together for 10 years and it failed.
Is that what you call an invasion leading 1 million people dead?
all of this started because your president wanted to play general
>>1420644
>implying the toll was directly from American soldiers
FUCKING LOL, every time. That staggering number is a result of the following sectarian violence and revenge attacks between Sunni and Shia you hopleless prick. You're a fucking moron if you think that damage was inflict by American military personnel.
>>1420480
>being this retarded
of course it was oil, just like most muslim attacks are not about the religion. it's the inconsistency in logic i'm highlighting
>>1420674
>You're a fucking moron if you think that damage was inflict by American military personnel.
I don't, but its clearly a direct result of the invasion. all invasions cause massive strife, famine, and encourage sectarian violence
Open any history book and you'll see that
>>1420695
>oil
>people still use this meme
Literal retard detected. American companies didn't even bid on Oil refinery contracts when they were privately auctioned in 2007. You know who did? Malaysian, Russian and Angolan companies had no fucking qualms about scooping them up.
In fact, Iraqi oil imports account for less than a single percent of all American oil imports and has for the last 20 years. You are seriously a narcissistic retard who conflates his opinion about something he has no knowledge of with reality.
>>1417262
Middle Eastern Christianity vs Catholicism lol
I dare you to find a European Christian sect more peaceful than my Assyrian Church of the East.
>>1420733
Your Assyrian Church has spent several centuries as a besieged group unable to challenge the power of the invading, usually Muslim tribes. This has changed Assyrian culture like it changed Jewish culture. Turn back the dial to the eve of the Arab Conquests, or further back to when Assyrian became a household name, and peaceful isn't the word anyone would use.
>>1420731
How many billions did Haliburton and KBR make?
>>1420701
Invasions never result in infighting unless the area was already infighting before that.
Iraq was going to go to shit as soon as the reigning dictator lost power. Yeah the US was what removed the power bloc but it's not the US's fault Muslims hate Muslims.
>>1420731
Kek, please stop shouting and acting like a baby when men are in the room
