I've been on 4chan for over five years, seen every anti-feminism propaganda i could, but i can't help myself and lately am starting to agree with them (with the reasonable ones, not the "men should worship women" landwhales).
There just is no actual argument against promoting gender neutrality and complete sexual freedom.
Why not just let anybody be whatever they want to be?
Because that's not how mother nature set it up. There's a very good reason why there are two genders and why the both of them shouldn't mix. The fact that this set up is very universal in nature and has survived for so long shows that, while we may not know exactly why this set up is the way it is, it's nevertheless extremely successful and tempering with it tends to be an extremely bad idea.
Nature cares about survival, not about whether can make good arguments for something.
>>1411527
I don't mind you choosing whatever you want to identify as, but don't expect to be seen as normal.
>>1411527
I blame tumblr and pop-feminism. A lot of bloggers are whatever refuse to invest time to read bell hooks, Butler or Harraway and just use half assed definitions from wiki or 101 college books to push an agenda (which would be okay) without stating that this is agenda (which is not okay). Plus we actually discuss about American discourses and their political debates are on a horrible niveau. It's no no coincidence that comedians like current-year-man have so much influence. Additionally there are companies like Sony that picked up on the feminist wave and use it to sell their (inferior) products. No surprise basement dwellers leash out like they do.
>>1411539
Learn the difference between sex and gender before engaging in a discussion like this. Please.
>>1411527
>There just is no actual argument against promoting gender neutrality and complete sexual freedom.
No there isn't, but that's not really what feminists argue for in many cases though.
They are usually middle or upper class women who are extremely privileged, yet they are whining that they don't have enough.
Sometimes I think feminism was just a capitalist ploy to get more labor in the workplace, and not actually about women's emancipation at all.
>>1411558
>Sometimes I think feminism was just a capitalist ploy to get more labor in the workplace, and not actually about women's emancipation at all.
This is one of the arguments bell hooks and marxist feminists sometime put forward. You could argue the same thing for handicapped people just being new blood for a dying economic system.
>>1411539
>lets stick to natures rules, eating corpses and roots worked out fine for billions of years
Literally whole success of human race is based on breaking off from nature. You are just strawmaning, not presenting any actual arguments.
>>1411544
Why not? Why not let anybody fuck whatever they want as long as its consensual?
>>1411560
> You could argue the same thing for handicapped people
Except handicapped people are probably less than 1% of the population, and require a lot of resources themselves to be able to labor for any profit.
Women are 50% of the population, and they also control something like 80% of household income, meaning its simply is a net boon for every slimy capitalist on the face of the planet to include them in the workforce.
>>1411580
Consensuality is a meme.
You have heard about the German cannibal case right? One person consented to being killed and eaten to satisfy someone else's cannibalism fetish; that doesn't make it right.
Things don't axiomatically become ethical or good simply because you say yes.
>>1411539
>mother nature
You mean YHWH
>Nature cares about survival, not about whether can make good arguments for something.
Organics are but a stepping stone on the path to the machine dominion of the universe
>>1411593
>One person consented to being killed and eaten to satisfy someone else's cannibalism fetish; that doesn't make it right.
Literally why?
>>1411586
Well women are 51% of the population :-^^
Add colored people and immigrants to the equation and my point (which is yours) still stands. There is an argument to made that there a lot of people to become workforce, increase their income and become consumers. In Germany there is current discussion on how to integrate elderly people in the job market too.
>>1411593
That dude wasn't sentenced for a raping but for the disfigurement of a corpse which is law in civilized societies and especially in Germany after what the nazis did to Jew corpses. Also consensuality pre-supposes the mutual ability to make important decisions (which rules out sex with 9 year olds too). The Rothenberg people were clinically insane.
>>1411558
Workers of the world unite amirite
>>1411600
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armin_Meiwes
>>1411527
Because by promoting gender neutrality you tell men who are masculine that their natural inclinations are problematic and women who are feminine the same thing. When feminists accept that most women actually do like semi-traditional gender roles, and simply want to be ensured a safety net for when they go south ( abusive husbands and the like), and don't treat women and men poorly for doing what comes natural to us, and is the most efficient social organization, then it will be fine.
Currently is feminist who are against complete sexual freedom. For example take this case, where the women consented but a feminist administrator decided that she was not competent enough to consent, denying her agency, and demonizing the innocent man who she was involved with.
http://reason.com/blog/2016/04/19/female-student-said-im-fine-and-i-wasnt
Female empowerment is great, but victimhood fetishization for the sake of attention and creating tension between men and women so to increase government oversight into private relationships has nothing to do with empowerment. Feminism has been actively working against women and men for most of our life times. The last positive thing done by feminists for women was equal pays laws( which worked marvelously despite the myths that legbeards push), it's been half a century since then.
>>1411601
>Also consensuality pre-supposes the mutual ability to make important decisions
Which wasn't a problem in this case because they were both adults.
The point I'm trying to make is that consensuality has everything to do with context, and not the act of consenting itself.
I mean, you can also sign a contract with a company to become a literal slave for them for 10 years, that still doesn't make slavery right, regardless of you consenting or not.
>>1411539
So you are saying survival in modern society is tied to upholding social roles of man as a provider and woman as a caretaker?
You are saying that in modern society, in which muscles are useless and its about brains, women have no way of surviving on their own, or being the provider?
I get that nature made it some way and most men want to be providers and most women want to be caretakers, but denying them the possibility to be whatever they want seems like limiting the possibilities of the society for sake of its stability. The same thing that was main agenda of monarchic/totalitarian/etc. government for thousands of years before democracy, capitalism, individualism and all that stuff that makes up modern society.
>>1411539
>appeal to nature
wew lad.
Sea horses change their gender too.
>>1411611
>Which wasn't a problem in this case because they were both adults.
It is when they are literally crazy. The court ruled that the victim was not able to decide on that dude to mental problems. Let's not totally derail here please. I am all for consensuality and stuff but there must be limits. Even Milton Friedmann limits his idea of a free market in that regard.
>>1411611
>I mean, you can also sign a contract with a company to become a literal slave for them for 10 years, that still doesn't make slavery right, regardless of you consenting or not.
Yeah, because of the law. I don't say let's get rid of the law but let's make a law based on the idea of cosensuality rather than puritan sex morals.
>>1411620
I thought this society is all about achieving happiness. And when some people reach happiness which some other people don't like, suddenly its wrong, what the fuck? The fact that they were different doesn't make their happiness any less worth.
>>1411623
>puritan sex morals.
Oh, you mean those puritans who allowed women to divorce their husbands if they weren't having orgasms
Yeah, what a bunch of backwards prudes!!!
>>1411623
>I don't say let's get rid of the law but let's make a law based on the idea of cosensuality rather than puritan sex morals.
Nah, I'm more interested in a system of law that is based on whether someone is harmed.
If two men or two women have consensual sex, that cannot be said to be harmful, and thus shouldn't be illegal.
But there's a vast difference between the legality and illegality of certain acts, and the idea that I have to listen to your babble about your self-identifying gender category.
I mean, the reality is that if you self-identify as a gender-queer demi-sexual flipqueen cockmongler, nobody really cares about that. What most people care about is who you have sex with, because people are perverts.
>>1411625
Part of modern definition of mental illness in subjective suffering. Meiwes was suffering from the idea to merge which his victim literally taking over his personality. This can't be achieved by eating a penis or anything else in the world really. So there was no way for him to be happy this way. He needed treatment to get rid of this idea.
>>1411593
>One person consented to being killed and eaten to satisfy someone else's cannibalism fetish; that doesn't make it right
Actually it does. Law is just too rigid to account for it. Same as with taking hard drugs in some countries - you get jailed for it.
>>1411628
Read Weber please.
>>1411632
>Actually it does
No it doesn't. Murder doesn't become right simply because someone wants to die.
>>1411629
>But there's a vast difference between the legality and illegality of certain acts, and the idea that I have to listen to your babble about your self-identifying gender category.
Well, you don't. Just don't listen. What is your point? There are a lot of people saying a lot of shit and I am not forced to listen to any of them. Gender troubles have nothing to do with it.
>I mean, the reality is that if you self-identify as a gender-queer demi-sexual flipqueen cockmongler, nobody really cares about that
The law does since gender-neutral passports don't exist, your insurance does cause gender neutral insurance rates are rate etc.
>What most people care about is who you have sex with, because people are perverts.
I agree but that's only part of the issue.
>>1411638
It's not murder. It's suicide.
Can't blame a bridge if you jump off it.
>>1411638
>Murder is the killing of another human being without justification or valid excuse
Eh, saying "please kill me" seems like a really good justification. By our definition people attempting suicide should be jailed.
>>1411527
>implying feminists support gender neutrality
kek
Feminists only support gender equality when it benefits women.
>>1411646
>I am too lazy to read this thread or anything with more than 20 words
kek
>>1411609
Feminists do support traditional gender roles though when it benefits women.
>>1411642
>Can't blame a bridge if you jump off it.
A human being isn't a bridge.
>>1411539
>thread about gender equality
>starts sperging about transexuals and how there are only 2 genders
>>1411527
>Why not just let anybody be whatever they want to be?
Peaceful coexistence is too advanced a concept for like 90% of people.
>>1411527
>Why not just let anybody be whatever they want to be?
That's not really the problem. The problem arises once people start asking for special treatment.
Also, feminism is literally build upon a victimhood mentality, which is, in itself, absolutely toxic.
For example: Feminists constantly complain about sexism in video games, but instead of setting an example and making their own non-sexist game, they try to push developers into making games by their standards.
>>1411665
No, the reality is that 90% of the time, whatever the fuck kind of bullshit gender you self-identify as, doesn't matter.
The idea that your gender identity is somehow the defining characteristic of you, is incredibly narcissistic, and most people don't give a shit, which is why nobody understands why it is even thing.
>>1411539
> Because that's not how mother nature set it up.
You mean some ancient cultures that barely even existed from a mother nature point of view? It isn't like feminism tries to literally create third genders or unify everyone into the one in biological sense.
>>1411657
Tradcons believe that men are strong and women are weak so it's the duty of men to be expendable protectors of women. Feminists believe that men are oppresssors and women are oppressed so it's the duty of men to be expendable protectors of women.
This can be seen in the fact that feminists oppose helping male domestic violence victims despite growing evidence that men are equally likely to be victims as women. This can also be seen from the feminist obsession with 'violence against women' implying that violence against women is more important than violence against men even though the majority of violence is suffered by men. Feminists in some South American countries have worked to get laws passed that make it a higher offense to kill a woman than a man. Feminists in India and Israel have also opposed recognition of male rape victims. This shows that feminists support male expendability.
The feminist attitude to MRAs is also evidence that feminists support male gender roles. If feminists were against male gender roles, they wouldn't oppose the MRM, instead look at the insults MRAs get from both feminists and tradcons, 'whiner', 'manbaby', etc. These insults insult MRAs for their percieved lack of masculinity and failure to conform to male gender roles, thus showing that feminists support male gender roles and actively oppose those who are against them.
Also, what rights do men have in the western world that women do not?
>>1411544
but i already now i'm not normal. After all normal is liking capitalism and the 30k people it kills everyday from hunger.
>>1411659
>A human being isn't a bridge.
Wow, really?
By your definition euthanasia is murder too, yet it's definitely legal in several countries: Switzerland, Netherlands and Japan. So fuck right off you retarded, religious piece of dung.
>>1411527
Women are bitches, don't do them any favors. Feminism mattered before internet porn came around, women serve no purpose outside of breeding and the sluts let Chad knock their shit up so the human race won't die off.
Absolutely no logical reason for women to be brought to the top if they can't kill their way there. Hillary Clinton is the only woman who has the balls to earn her spot. I hate that cunt but I also admire her.
Anyone in this thread who say's otherwise is probably a fag or a nerd.
>>1411708
No, euthanasia certainly isn't murder if it's legal in a specific country.
Murder is after all a legal category of unlawful homicide.
But there is a vast legal and ethical difference between stopping life support, or giving someone who has stage 4 cancer a huge dose of morphine, and cutting off and eating someone's penis while they are tied to a chair, and then murdering them.
>>1411701
>Feminists believe that men are oppresssors and women are oppressed so it's the duty of men to be expendable protectors of women.
Yeah, they believed that in like 1920. Modern theorists would never state it like this.
>This can be seen in the fact that feminists oppose helping male domestic violence victims despite growing evidence that men are equally likely to be victims as women.
Post the evidence (inb4 Breitbart/Fox)
>This can also be seen from the feminist obsession with 'violence against women' implying that violence against women is more important than violence against men even though the majority of violence is suffered by men.
Wrong. It's not "violence against women" but the idea of masculine habitus leading to violence that obviously can also be exercised by non-males. In the LGBT-community there are huge discussions about this since violence is ubiquitous in queer-relationsships.
>Feminists in India and Israel have also opposed recognition of male rape victims
Someone I know is called Peter. He is an idiot. Therefore everybody called Peter is an idiot.
>Also, what rights do men have in the western world that women do not?
Is this a joke? Also nobody states that fighting for same (legal) rights is the feminist endgame.
>>1411631
>man cannot achieve his dream
>coming as close to it as he humanly can is wrong and he should be stopped
Why the fuck do you feel the need to dictate him what he can and can't do? He isn't hurting anybody, he isn't using anybody, he just does literally what he wants, fullfilling his utmost desire. But fucks like you just can't let a man live, gotta keep making up rules to limit other's lives. Seriously i hope you go insane too, so you know how it feels when your way of thinking is out of the ordinary and others dictate you what is "normal" for no reason but their own content feeling.
>>1411744
You know you're really in Alice in Wonderland when someone literally defends mental illness as eccentrism.
>>1411527
>There just is no actual argument against promoting gender neutrality and complete sexual freedom.
>>1411732
>Someone I know is called Peter. He is an idiot. Therefore everybody called Peter is an idiot.
Ok, so you don't really have any counter arguments besides
>not all feminists ;)
>Is this a joke?
Then name some rights men have women do not
>>1411745
Mental illness is treated because it isn't compatible with society. When the patient isn't hurting anybody and actually wants to leave the society alone via suicide, there is no reason to stop him.
>>1411754
>When the patient isn't hurting anybody and actually wants to leave the society alone via suicide
Yeah, but then you can hang yourself, and not get someone to cut off your dick and stab you with a knife.
The same way that people who use police as a means to commit suicide are terrible people, if you really want to kill yourself, there are hundreds of ways to do it, that doesn't involve harming others, or involving others at all.
>>1411754
>Mental illness is treated because it isn't compatible with society
Has it ever occured to you that this not the only reason for treating mentally ill people?
The main purpose of therapy is usually to make it possible for those people to lead normal lives.
>>1411750
So you are only addressing half of my posts point. And yes, your inducing (without source) what an unknown amount of people said to a general statement about a certain group is a logical fallacy. There really is no responding to that in any meaningful way.
>Then name some rights men have women do not
In Germany until two weeks ago you couldn't rape women without them physically resisting i.e. them saying no or being intoxicated wasn't enough to constitute rape. Since rape victims are predominantly female the absence of a functioning law hurt the right of women not being raped. Not having access to contraception hurts the right to plan families etc.
I mean there really is no debate here, even amongst reactionaries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproductive_rights
>>1411744
>He isn't hurting anybody,
Yes, he was using a mental patient who was literally unable to willfully consent. I guess you are trolling though.
>>1411772
Ok but I don't see anything about equal rights
If anything rape laws regarding male rape are significantly worse
>>1411580
Fuck whatever you want, or look, act as you want etc. But dont expect the majority to accept you for the special snowflake you are.
>ACCEPT ME FOR WHO IAM, IM A WHALEKIN FEMINIST I DEMAND RESPECT
Its like BLM, gimmuh respect i r black
>>1411777
Are you talking about legal right? Cause I already stated that it's not about that anymore and that feminist generally agree that equal right in the West have been achieved. This is why they talk about culture now.
>>1411772
>And yes, your inducing (without source) what an unknown amount of people said to a general statement about a certain group is a logical fallacy.
Which is the same thing you did
>Modern theorists would never state it like this.
>Someone I know is called Peter. He is an idiot. Therefore everybody called Peter is an idiot.
But how about those rights men have women dont?
>In Germany until two weeks ago you couldn't rape women without them physically resisting i.e. them saying no or being intoxicated wasn't enough to constitute rape.
Wait, so the law applied to both sexes but because you state;
>Since rape victims are predominantly female the absence of a functioning law hurt the right of women not being raped.
Then its somehow a right men have that women dont....
Also nice source ;^)
>Not having access to contraception hurts the right to plan families etc.
Now thats what I call reaching
And since when is the right to plan families (lol) something that only applies to women?
>>1411781
Ah so the "feminism is about equality" is not actually objective equality but more
>i cant have everything the way i want why cant people just be like i want them to be :(
ok cool
>>1411732
>Yeah, they believed that in like 1920. Modern theorists would never state it like this.
Actions speak louder than words.
>Post the evidence (inb4 Breitbart/Fox)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duluth_model
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/oct/19/annastacia-palaszczuk-warned-dont-put-domestic-violence-against-men-above-women
>It's not 'violence against women'
You're joking right? Femiists constantly use those exact words.
>Someone I know is called Peter. He is an idiot. Therefore everybody called Peter is an idiot.
Funny how feminists complain about 'not all men' but then constantly rely on 'not all feminists' (while every MRA is either a whining manbaby neckbeard or the spawn of satan) It wasn't a small group of feminists, it was large enough that the governments involved had to concede (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Activists-join-chorus-against-gender-neutral-rape-laws/articleshow/18840879.cms) (http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Womens-groups-Cancel-law-charging-women-with-rape). Mary Koss (one of the people behind the violence against women act) also rigged statistics to erase male victims of rape. (https://imgur.com/n4NZfxA0
>Is this a joke?
No. No feminist has answered this before.
>>1411769
> lead normal lives
If people are okay with whatever mental illness they has and there is no harm for anyone else then it isn't even issue, be it normal life or not.
>>1411781
Oh, so you mean abstract 'rights' that arent actually codified nor definable
>that feminist generally agree that equal right in the West have been achieved.
How can you make such a general statement about a certain group of people made up of an unknown amount of individuals?
>>1411781
>Cause I already stated that it's not about that anymore and that feminist generally agree that equal right in the West have been achieved
In that case, there is no need for feminism anymore.
>This is why they talk about culture now.
And you think that this is justified? In my opinion, culture (whoever you want to define this term) should be free (as in, uncensored). Wouldn't you agree with this?
>>1411786
If you seriously doubt that in the West more women than men are getting raped it shows me that you are not rooted in reality anymore. Also >>1411781
>>Modern theorists would never state it like this.
Spivak, Bourdieu, bell hooks. You want me to cite articles? Also those are the people who (amongst others) are the ones forming the paradigms. I man not talking about tumblrettes.
>Now thats what I call reaching
Yeah I am reaching far, so far that I actually know about the United Nations: http://www.unfoundation.org/what-we-do/campaigns-and-initiatives/family-planning-2020/
>>1411778
Point is to not be looked down upon. Not to be treated specially.
>>1411796
Yes, this is why the first question of most therapists usually is "Is this having a negative impact on your life?"
If the answer to this question is no, then this illness will in most cases not be treated.
Your point?
>>1411803
There's a good chance that more men are raped than women due to the prison system. Of course we can't say for sure since there's no statistics.
>>1411803
>If you seriously doubt that in the West more women than men are getting raped it shows me that you are not rooted in reality anymore
Yes, but men still make up a significant amount of rape victims. They are also getting an unproportionally low amount of support. When was the last time you heard a feminist complaining about that?
Same thing with domestic violence.
Feminists do not give a single shit about men, that's why I call myself an egalitarian.
>>1411798
>How can you make such a general statement about a certain group of people made up of an unknown amount of individuals?
You can look at the laws and how courts are ruling. It's pretty objective. Also it's "rape culture", not rape "laws" for example, they are allowed to vote etc. Have this:
http://www.inquiriesjournal.com/articles/395/western-feminism-in-a-global-perspective
>>1411800
I believe that the idea that are is free bourgeois idea that defies science. I am neither researching gender nor race stuff but I am working on my PhD regarding cultural phenomenon and historically culture has been anything but free. I mean here I agree with Adorno and Zizek (I usually despise both of them).
>In that case, there is no need for feminism anymore.
Legal codification and societal reality are not the same thing.
>>1411803
>If you seriously doubt that in the West more women than men are getting raped it shows me that you are not rooted in reality anymore.
then you are clearly fucking clueless
>the survey uncovered that 38 percent of incidents were against men.
>After all, in years past men had accounted for somewhere between 5 and 14 percent of rape and sexual violence victims.
>http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/04/male_rape_in_america_a_new_study_reveals_that_men_are_sexually_assaulted.html
Surely you must understand how difficult and traumatic it is for rape survivors to come forward, no? And that maybe the gender stereotypes in our society have caused male rape to go grossly under reported, no? Or are you just another no-empathy permavirgin channer?
>Spivak, Bourdieu, bell hooks. You want me to cite articles? Also those are the people who (amongst others) are the ones forming the paradigms. I man not talking about tumblrettes.
Someone I know is called Peter. He is an idiot. Therefore everybody called Peter is an idiot.
>Yeah I am reaching far, so far that I actually know about the United Nations
Where in the declaration of human rights is family planning listed? Or in any other document that lays out legal rights?
>>1411803
I don't get why feminists say rape is a feminist issue
Rape is a violent crime, like murder or assault
It's a social issue, not a feminist one
>>1411824
>You can look at the laws and how courts are ruli........
That response was taking the piss out of him
Its a verbatim copy of one of his 'counterpoints'
>>1411829
Because women are raped, not men. This is literally impossible.
>>1411829
Because MUH RIGHTS
Just not legal ones but theoretical ones we get to define and change at will
>>1411808
Yes, I know. Also globally cause Africa is fucked up. But I am talking about the West i.e. neither the world nor the U.S. alone. Also feminists would argue that raping in prison is the result of rape culture. No one ever said men can't be victims too (except for these anonymous feminists anon stated above).
>>1411819
>When was the last time you heard a feminist complaining about that?
Around November when Spivak held a lecture in Berlin.
>>1411836
Sorry, I don't follow. To clarify: my statement was not about criminal cases but constitutional rules in Germany and the US where both supreme courts played a pretty "progressive" role over the last 40 years.
>>1411806
That is a retarded question. Every person in the world has some mental issue in their life causing them issues. (urge for wealth/appreciation/attention etc.). If somebody had an issue that would have no negative impact on their life, they would truly be insane.
>>1411824
>I believe that the idea that are is free bourgeois idea that defies science
What are you even trying to say?
>historically culture has been anything but free.
That doesn't mean that it shouldn't be free.
>Legal codification and societal reality are not the same thing.
Well yes, but any violation of legal codification is a crime, and therefore punishable by the powers that be. There is no need for feminism in such a system.
>>1411827
>then you are clearly fucking clueless
As I said I am not talking about the US alone and your statistic is for the US alone.
>Someone I know is called Peter. He is an idiot. Therefore everybody called Peter is an idiot.
Those are people called Peter being taught in colleges around the world shaping the paradigm of feminists studies. It's a qualitative difference.
>Where in the declaration of human rights is family planning listed? Or in any other document that lays out legal rights?
http://www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/cedaw/
>>1411829
>Rape is a violent crime, like murder or assault
It should be but in many courtrooms around the world it's not despite the law stating otherwise. I am with you though in the sense that I think a strictly legal debate could be fruitful.
>>1411839
From wikipedia: Rape is a type of sexual assault usually involving sexual intercourse or other forms of sexual penetration perpetrated against a person without that person's consent.
>>1411846
>(urge for wealth/appreciation/attention etc.).
Thise aren't even mental disorders, what are you talking about.
If a person with OCD came to a therapist and said that he could not sleep unless all keys in the house are in upright position in their keyholes, this would be a reason to treat this disorder.
In a less severe case, the disorder may not be treated.
There are various degrees of mental illness.
>>1411842
>Sorry, I don't follow.
I copied one of your replies to use as a response against you here;
>>1411772
>And yes, your inducing (without source) what an unknown amount of people said to a general statement about a certain group is a logical fallacy.
But since that went over your head....
>my statement was not about criminal cases but constitutional rules in Germany and the US where both supreme courts played a pretty "progressive" role over the last 40 years.
Which gets back to this - What rights do men have in the west that women do not?
And you still haven't answered that. Or have you already thrown the towel in on the legal side are and putting your chips on 'societal' rights?
>>1411869
Everyone has issues, and they aren't disorders.
>>1411527
>complete sexual freedom.
t. pedophile and animal abuser.
>>1411874
Exactly. Issues aren't treated. Disorders are. Your point?
>>1411874
As in, I think the other anon meant something similar to desires in buddhism, rather than medical disorders.
>>1411854
>As I said I am not talking about the US alone and your statistic is for the US alone.
So it doesn't matter then because it doesn't fit your narrative?
>Those are people called Peter being taught in colleges around the world shaping the paradigm of feminists studies. It's a qualitative difference.
hmmmmmm
>And yes, your inducing (without source) what an unknown amount of people said to a general statement about a certain group is a logical fallacy.
Do you have a source on what every feminist professor the world over believes?
Or are you falling into the same type of logical fallacy you decry others for committing?
>http://www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/cedaw/
A fucking convention
Where is a legally binding document that defines family planning as a right, anywhere in the western world?
>>1411632
>taking hard drugs
this destroys people mentally and physically 99.9999999 % of the time and is in someone's best interest.
>>1411708
>Netherlands
It isnt, Many himanitarian doctors get fucked over hard if they euthanize anybody outside the 0,000001 % who meets the bizarre criteria.
Can this thread just die already, please?
OP has been BTFO multiple times now, this is just painful to read.
>>1411842
There misght be a rape culture in prison, but the theory that there is a rape culture in normal society that EVERY male adheres to, is crazier than Dahmer.
>>1411925
> most of the posts
The one obvious same fag, you mean?
>>1411931
I mean every post in this thread that isn't about dyed hair landwhale "down with patriarchy" feminists, but about the main point of feminism mentioned in the OP. Nobody btfo'd it yet.
>>1411876
On rape? I think prison rape is a special issue. Are there statistics on women on women rape in prison?
>>1411886
>So it doesn't matter then because it doesn't fit your narrative?
It fits my narrative about masculine habitus perfectly desu but I refrain from talking about US-only issues only since I am not American.
>hmmmmmm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradigm_shift
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imre_Lakatos
>Do you have a source on what every feminist professor the world over believes?
You can go google n-gram that those names in relation to feminism.
Also there are a bunch of papers out there tracing the most influential ideas in feminism:
http://drbeardmoose.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/whatisfeminism.pdf (footnotes lead to good articles on that issue)
>A fucking convention
Are you dense? It's document from that conference ratified by member state.
>Countries that have ratified or acceded to the Convention are legally bound to put its provisions into practice.
>legally bound
>legally
Good enough for you?
>>1411887
Prison is a horrible program for drug addicts.
>Hey I got this drug charge on my record
>now I'm stuck in this cage full of assholes
>k, I'm released, no job will take me because of this charge
>stuck in half way house
>relapse
>rinse and repeat
Not to mention its often just as easy to find drugs in prison as it is for civilians, in some cases easier.
>99.9999999 % of the time
Magic nines must mean you didn't totally pull that statistic out of your ass.
>>1411939
>On rape? I think prison rape is a special issue. Are there statistics on women on women rape in prison?
The article wasn't about prison rape, it was incident of rape across the us.
>It fits my narrative about masculine habitus perfectly desu but I refrain from talking about US-only issues only since I am not American.
Does it?
Because this is one hell of a change from
>>1411803
>If you seriously doubt that in the West more women than men are getting raped it shows me that you are not rooted in reality anymore.
You start off by insinuating that rape is only relevant for women because, well I guess reasons of reality?
Since you've surrendered on that point, nice to see a new refrain. Although you'll have to key me in on you 'narrative about masculine habitus' - did you post that in another thread? Its certainly not here in this one.
>You can go google n-gram that those names in relation to feminism.
You attack others for generalizing but then you go off and do the exact same fucking thing.
Once again as you so eloquently put
>And yes, your inducing (without source) what an unknown amount of people said to a general statement about a certain group is a logical fallacy.
Could you maybe key me in on how you do this? Who do I need to talk to so I can speak with authority on who/what is/isn't part of modern day feminism? Do I just have to insinuate that someone is using fox/breitbart as a source?
>Are you dense? It's document from that conference ratified by member state.
Yeah, with a bunch of very vague provisions and no specifics on actual enforcement, laws, or any other step signatories should take. Aka a set of fucking guidelines.
Yet the core question remains unanswered; what legal rights do men have in the west that women do not?
You've danced around this a bunch but have been unable to come up with anything of substance.
>>1411985
>You start off by insinuating that rape is only relevant for women because, well I guess reasons of reality?
I stated numerous times that is not the case and the men can be victims too.
>You can go google n-gram that those names in relation to feminism.
And you ignore that right after that statement I posted a source.
> Who do I need to talk to so I can speak with authority on who/what is/isn't part of modern day feminism?
Historians who who do research on the history of feminism and feminist science.
>Yet the core question remains unanswered; what legal rights do men have in the west that women do not?
No, you wanted a legally binding document. I posted one despite me already stating numerous times that I believe (as do most feminists I know and read) that legal equality has indeed reached in the West. I am not dancing around anything here.
take this shit back to /pol/
>>1411985
>If you seriously doubt that in the West more women than men are getting raped it shows me that you are not rooted in reality anymore.
The study you posted confirms that statement though. 38% is the minority.
>>1411985
>Since you've surrendered on that point, nice to see a new refrain. Although you'll have to key me in on you 'narrative about masculine habitus' - did you post that in another thread? Its certainly not here in this one.
>ctr+f habitus
>It's not "violence against women" but the idea of masculine habitus leading to violence that obviously can also be exercised by non-males. In the LGBT-community there are huge discussions about this since violence is ubiquitous in queer-relationsships.
I dislike the feminist rhetoric because it's way too extremist, at times I see little difference between it and the /pol/like rhetoric
>>1411539
>Nature cares
>>1411566
>implying you can break free from nature
>>1411555
The difference is made in order to give the snowflakes a sense of legitemacy
Gender = Sex + libtard bs
Is rape culture real in the west /his/? It seems pretty prevelant in places like India. But I thought culture has to be taught, I have never seen anyone in the western world teach people how to rape.
>>1412377
So when people come out as trans do you hear them say "I genderly (not even a word) identify..." or "I sexually identify...".
From what I have seen most people recognize gender and sex as being synonymous words. People that say they are not synonymous seem to forcing the change in definition and their methods of doing so are often quite malicious ways. Ways such as crying "hate speech" or "bigot" at dissenting opinions and views. You may think that it may not be very effective method to change speech, however looking at Europe and social media, Europe recently forced social media services to monitor speech on their platform for 'hate speech'. Recently, because of this, 60 people in Germany have been arrested for having right wing or "Nazi" views. To even make the situation worse, Muslims are protected by German police while they deny the Holocaust (illegal in Germany) and are openly antisemitic (see Al Quds Day). These Muslims are not even punished for 'hate speech'.
I went way off topic.
>>1412382
No. Globally, the West has the lowest amount of rapes and it is currently at the lowest it has ever been in history. Rape is more of an issue in underdeveloped areas. Such as parts of Asia, the middle east, and parts of Africa.
>>1411566
I'm going to break free from nature. I'll destroy my sexual organs and continue the species!
>>1411629
>Nah, I'm more interested in a system of law that is based on whether someone is harmed.
>If two men or two women have consensual sex, that cannot be said to be harmful, and thus shouldn't be illegal.
I hear this idea that we should use harm as the benchmark a lot, its an old idea that has its roots in J.S. Mill. I don't think it's an improvement at all, as the goalposts of what constitutes harm can easily be moved.
For instance, why can't consensual sex be harmful? People can have their feelings gravely hurt, can experience legitimate trauma, can obviously get STDs or pregnant. We presume that a 35 year old having sex with an 11 year old is harmful because there's no consent; can't we say the same thing about where one party is very charismatic and "causes" someone to make a choice that they later regret?
The issue with using harm, while decent as a moral theory, is that, in the real world, we tend to solve these harms by creating rights. The more rights you create to prevent various harms, the more they are going to conflict, which just results in harm to other people, and a legislature or court decides which forms of harm are important or unimportant to address. The attempt to combat a perceived harm a perceived harm works on an objective level, while harm itself is highly subjective. Look at the war against hazing that began about a decade ago, you had a handful of people who claimed they were harmed by it, and now the activity is illegal for everyone, including the majority of people who had no problem with it.
>>1412382
"Rape culture" is a code word for male genocide.
>>1411612
In Western society, gender and race pretty much don't limit what jobs people can do at all. People prefer different types of working however and this can coincide with race and gender. The primary factor in acquiring jobs though is merit, and some people are just naturally better at some jobs than others.
>There just is no actual argument against promoting gender neutrality and complete sexual freedom.
Are there arguments for this, though? I haven't heard good ones.
>>1411527
>men and women should be equal in the eyes of the law
>okay.
>now you have treat us equally too
>fine, but you have to earn our respect like we expect from other males
>REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE SOMEONE PAY ATTENTION TO ME
A summary of feminism.
>>1411617
I'm a human, does that make me a seahorse?
The United States is currently sexist against men. Women are more likely to get hired in STEM jobs, alongside minorities, than white men. Women win custody of the child 83% of the time. Women have rights to the child is the condom breaks, and can force over 150 thousand dollars out of a male even if she agreed to have a kid.
Women are arguing to get paid maternity leave, which is a joke.
>>1412450
They always use the "but she was totally the caretaker" argument when addressing custody, as though men can't pull diapers and as though women should be allowed to live with a kid if they don't work. But when it comes to women being inferior soldiers, they say it doesn't count and that stats don't matter. They basically have special snowflake status in the United States.
>>1411674
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA9N8NEqS9E
>>1412382
The issue is that, in a lot of feminist thought, if a rape occurs, it's because of rape culture. Unfortunately anti-rape activists believe that we don't have to just reduce rape (which I think the West is pretty good at), but end it completely, because if rape still occurs, then women aren't truly equal because they still live in fear of rape, even if it is a very unlikely possibility.
This is a very illiberal position, and is more reminiscent of Stalinist or Maisy thought that incorrect behavior or thought is proof that an ideal society hasn't been achieved and that the existence of such people are a threat to society as a whole.
>>1412409
>*Maoist
>>1411732
>>This can be seen in the fact that feminists oppose helping male domestic violence victims despite growing evidence that men are equally likely to be victims as women.
>Post the evidence (inb4 Breitbart/Fox)
There is only 1 shelter in the world for males who suffer domestic violence. There are thousands for women, many of the female shelters reject males entirely.
>>1412450
>Women have rights to the child is the condom breaks
Condoms do have a failure rate which is acknowledged (doesn't justify it), but then there are cases where a woman literally steals the sperm out of the condom after sex and inserts it in and gets pregnant.
I'm not saying that this is common, but even in a situation like this the man has to pay for the child if the mother wishes so. None of this would be a problem if it were not for the fact that Women's Organizations did not actively fight against male contraceptive pills.
>>1412476
>Women's Organizations actively fight against male contraceptive pills*
>>1412476
You see lads, this is why to always flush the rubber down the loo after you are done.
>feminism
That's how I know someone has the mental capacity of a child.
>>1412466
I constantly live in fear that a woman is going to hurt me emotionally, should I make a social issue out of "tfw no gf culture?"
>>1412489
Exactly, that's why I think the anti street harassment stuff is such bullshit. It makes you feel unsafe, or even just inconvenienced, that some dude says "Hey baby, you're looking gorgeous today"? There's stuff that bothers or discomforts a lot of people, men too. Just because something disproportionately affects women doesn't make it a feminist issue, and even if it does, that doesn'tmean the legal ssystem should address it. Men are overwhelmingly the ones convicted of crimes, is our criminal justice system sexist? Should MRAs start going after that and call for laws to be removed from the books that men are disproportionately convicted of?
>>1412506
On the topic of street harassment:
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/jul/13/nottinghamshire-police-count-wolf-whistling-hate-crime
>>1412516
What happened to feminism being about self-empowerment for women and men accepting that, like Mary Wollstonecraft, Simone de Beauvoir or even Betty Friedan? This story is sad, they're treating women like children who are "abused" by words or sounds.
>>1412528
Evidently you've never read anything Betty Friedan wrote, because her most famous work is a very long and thoughtful explanation of how psychologically damaging the 50's housewife stereotype was to women.
>>1411527
>There just is no actual argument against promoting gender neutrality and complete sexual freedom.
There's something wrong with infantilizing women, collectivizing the female (and male) experience, politicizing gender, and disingenuously characterizing feminism as just "gender equality" instead of women's rights activism. Not to mention perpetuating lies, false statistics, fear-mongering and cover-ups to force the dogmatic narrative and some ignoring the plight of third world women and women who are the victims of assault by minorities. Now it's just "western marxism: gender edition" and has become poisoned and ideological past the point of recovery. It was better when it was actually about encouraging/empowering women in the past, and even then, feminism was never exactly a perfect.
>>1412424
I agree that it's somewhat arbitrary.
But name me a ethical system that is foolproof and has no objections to it, because that doesn't exist.
I still think basing law on physical harm done, is better than arbitrary cultural mores.
>>1411539
Hume didn't die for this.
>>1411612
Shut up you walking hole, suck my dick. Female writing style like that pisses me off so goddamn fucking much.
>>1413304
>caring about prose
This isn't poetry, you dip
>>1411527
>propaganda
Low T cuck confirmed.
Anyone who loves women (and girls) should be against feminism, because feminism is a conspiracy against the female sex.
http://pastebin.com/rJEtvsCW
>feminism
Alright, good, the shitposting memers thread is here.
Guys, can someone remind me what the /his/ board motto we decided on was? I need it for something.
>>1413521
I thought our motto was "/pol/ with dates".
>>1413531
That's our lament. I recall our motto being far more positive.
>>1413531
I don't get it, I see way more legit threads than actual /pol/ shitflinging
>>1411612
The problem isn't them providing, it's fooling yourself into thinking that you can be whatever you want.
You can't, no matter how hard you try you won't make it into the Navy Seals while on a wheelchair. And you can't just suddenly up and say that people are being prejudiced when it's something that you actually CAN do but don't (e.g. hurr I am fat because I am opressed, the capitalist system doesn't make healthy food available to me [still can't wrap my head around this one, knowing people who have actually went hungry due to being poor])
>>1412409
They don't say either of those, they jsut say "i'm transgender" or "i identify as x"
The sexually identify comes from the shitty attack helicopter pasta
>>1413545
Because anti-/pol/ autists require a safe space, and anywhere with even the faintest trace of /pol/ they complain about
>>1411539
>Because that's not how mother nature set it up. There's a very good reason why there are two genders
Mother nature actually set it up that there's technically an infinite variety of genders (male, female, and all sorts of intersex variations), so claiming there's only two genders is actually going against nature. The gender binary truly *IS* a social construct, people only assume it's not because of the fallacious reasoning that since intersex people are rare, it's safe to pretend they don't exist.
> why the both of them shouldn't mix
They HAVE to mix in order to reproduce, otherwise we'll all die out. And keeping them isolated apart from reproduction just promotes misunderstanding and hostility between the sexes.
>>1411586
>also control something like 80% of household income
What? I'm pretty sure in most families it's not the women who control the finances of the whole family.
>>1411593
What exactly makes it wrong though? Just because you find it gross?
>>1411609
>Because by promoting gender neutrality you tell men who are masculine that their natural inclinations are problematic and women who are feminine the same thing.
That's a case of gender neutrality being promoted the wrong way. It's not about shaming masculine men and feminine women, it's more about saying that those should not be the only acceptable gender roles in our society.
>>1411611
>I mean, you can also sign a contract with a company to become a literal slave for them for 10 years, that still doesn't make slavery right, regardless of you consenting or not.
I'd say there is nothing morally wrong with that, as long as you are in a position to freely choose. You can't really meaningfully consent if it's a choice between that and your family starving, but that's not really anything to do with slavery - exploitation of workers in market economies under similar circumstances is equally nonconsensual.
>>1413625
The gender binary is generally true. It's not a social construct. What you argue is like saying that humans don't have five fingers on each hand because some people are born with six fingers. Rarity is not fallacious reasoning, it helps establish what is a general rule. Humans are generally sexually dimorphic, just like we generally have five fingers per hand; intersexuality is a mutation/aberration.
>>1413611
Regards,
Politics and Twitter Drama Cross Poster
>>1411527
>There just is no actual argument against promoting gender neutrality and complete sexual freedom
In fact, there is not a single legit argument for this.
There are plenty of arguments against this libtards ideas but libtards are to religious to take care of them.
>>1411586
Don't forget to mention that Women are low tier spirituality and are god tier narcissist that will find their way of a good capitalistic consumer...
>>1411609
>you tell men who are masculine that their natural inclinations are problematic
I actually agree with this. There is a number of things that are done because of men being idiots that should and could easily be avoided.
>>1413643
>gender binary is generally true
It's hard to argue with people who simply don't understand the difference between sex and gender...
>>1411527
Kill yourself libshit
>>1413667
Can you just admit you don't know what being masculine is and that you just want a feminized and dead society?
>>1411635
Kill yourself
>>1413675
I'm using gender as in sex. Words can have multiple definitions. Hard to argue with people who don't understand that.
>>1412019
>>1412017
>>1412006
>/pol/ gets BTFO'D
>people continue arguing hours later without continuing the thread's discussion
>thread turns into major shit posting
>>1413667
>men being idiots
So, are men the problem, or are the idiots?
>>1413686
Show me the gender definition you are using. Since this is a board on humanities I assume that we are using one from social science.
Literally no one is arguing about:
> Rarity is not fallacious reasoning, it helps establish what is a general rule. Humans are generally sexually dimorphic, just like we generally have five fingers per hand; intersexuality is a mutation/aberration.
So I fail to see the point of your post.
>>1413699
Masculinity is. At least this is what non-braindead feminists argue. Men are not the problem per se but they are more inclined to exercise forms of (western) masculinity.
>>1411674
>Also, feminism is literally build upon a victimhood mentality, which is, in itself, absolutely toxic.
There's nothing wrong or "toxic" about viewing yourself as a victim when you are in fact blatantly disadvantaged by factors beyond your control.
>>1411786
>Then its somehow a right men have that women dont....
It's a right that the absense of disproportionately effects women. If a law made it illegal to pee standing up, would you not say it is depriving men of their rights?
>>1411829
Feminism is a social movement focused on women. So social issues which disproportionately effect women are feminist issues.
>>1411878
>abuser
That implies that you are exercising your freedom in a way that diminishes another's freedom, in which case you are not working towards "complete sexual freedom".
>>1411902
"Rape culture" does not mean every male wants to rape. For a culture to exist does not require that everyone adheres to it. Rape culture is more about how males feel entitled to sex, and find ways to rationalize rape to make it seem not as bad.
>>1412409
The phrase "I sexually identify" literally doesn't exist outside of Reddit copypastas. When someone comes out as trans they usually say "I identify as a woman" or "I identify as a transgender woman".
>>1412422
There's literally nothing wrong with that if you're not planning on reproducing anyway. The species does not require EVERY individual to reproduce, it might actually be healthier if only those with the best genetic traits reproduce. And destroying your sexual organs would actually be beneficial if you're not planning on using them.
>>1412437
So then feminism is good for men, since feminists say they want to END rape culture.
>>1412466
We don't have to eliminate rape completely, but reduce it to a point where people don't live in fear of it. 1 in 10 women being raped in their lifetime is still way too high a rate.
>>1413713
>western
holy fuck
>>1413702
>Literally no one is arguing about
You said so in >>1413625
>people only assume it's not because of the fallacious reasoning that since intersex people are rare, it's safe to pretend they don't exist.
also
>I assume you're using the sociological definition
Then why talk about intersex. That's sex, not gender identity.
>>1413720
What factors are beyond their control outside biology when it comes to western society?
And don't say "there are some bigots" when they have zero power, it'd be like saying the Nazis hold institutional power in the US.
>>1411527
>There just is no actual argument against promoting gender neutrality
What about the fact that males and females are biologically different (unless you think sexual dimorphism is a lie), and by promoting the idea that two different things are different you're in fact promoting a lie for ideology's sake?
>>1413713
Can you substantiate this claim? How have the majority of rapes been motivated by masculinity?
>>1413720
>reduce it to a point where people don't live in fear of it.
Feminists are the reason women are living in fear.
>>1413699
Idiots, masculinity is just an excuse and a reasoning.
>>1413730
Oh, sorry I am not >>1413625 What he said is retarded, I agree.
>Then why talk about intersex. That's sex, not gender identity.
Cause there is a crossroad here since intersex people being forced being either male or female is not a biological but a sociological process that offers a glimpse of how the sociological aspect works.
>>1413720
>"Rape culture" does not mean every male wants to rape.
Could you not call it "entitlement culture?" Or is it that you simply need excessively lurid, fear-mongering terms to dub this phenomenon?
>>1413744
No wait, I changed my mind. The problem is men and it's not a western only problem (obviously).
>>1411558
>Sometimes I think feminism was just a capitalist ploy to get more labor in the workplace
I genuinely think this is true and I'm nowhere near being a communist. If child labor is outlawed why is female labor alright? Often a 15 year old boy can perform any task better than any woman.
>>1413752
What the ruck?
>>1413757
Do people doubt this? I thin it was obvious.
>>1413720
>There's nothing wrong or "toxic" about viewing yourself as a victim when you are in fact blatantly disadvantaged by factors beyond your control.
But there is you are in fact not.
>>1413739
>It's hard to argue with people who simply don't understand the difference between sex and gender..
>1413740
>>1413740
Why make it about rape? Also I am describing what I think non-retarded feminists are saying. Whether I agree with them or not is another thing.
>Can you substantiate this claim
One might argue that the being one top idea of dominating other people is the one that leads humanity into wars, neoliberalism and ecological suicide.
>but women can be heartless CEOs too
True. This is why feminist shouldn't try to dominate men are whoever but establish a way of thinking and acting that thinks outside the box. Le stronk women meme has some truth to it.
>>1413702
>Show me the gender definition you are using. Since this is a board on humanities I assume that we are using one from social science.
Not him, but this is the social sciences definition of gender: the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex.
Being there only two sexes, it follows that there only are two genders.
>>1413744
You can ultimately "excuse" rape with anything, but luckily for us the vast majority of our society sees rape as inexcusable.
The urge to feel validated as masculine does not push the majority to men to commit violent crime. There are always other, more pertinent motives.
>>1413720
>1 in 10 women being raped in their lifetime
Except that's not correct at all.
>>1413748
Western masculinity is a concept that was developed in the 19th century (Andreas Reckwith). It has since then been exported all over the world. I also do not think that a non-western masculinity offers some solution just because it is non western. My point (which is the point of much feminist sociology) is that there are certain notions of masculinity. The dominating one right now was conceived in the west.
BTW I never lived in the sub-urbs and lived some time in the Middle East.
>>1413713
Hypermasculinity is a confusing term. It actually means lack of masculinity and insecurity about that.
But nope, masculinity is not the problem at all. It's a catch all thing which feminists who dislike men can blame things on.
>Rape culture is more about how males feel entitled to sex
This is actually false. Men are used to being rejected because they are the ones usually asking out, and putting themselves forth. Women are more likely to get mad and feel entitled to sex when they are rejected.
>and find ways to rationalize rape to make it seem not as bad.
All criminals do this. There is nothing special about men. Also you are generalizing way too much, rapes and rapists are not that common.
>inb4 muh 1/4 lies
>>1413770
Key word being "typically" here i.e. this is a construction.
>>1413769
Going by this definition >>1413770 you're the one who doesn't know what he's talking about.
>behavioral psychological traits
These two are different between sexes. Biologically different, as in motivated by hormones and DNA. You can't change these just because you want to, no more than you can switch all the Y chromosomes in your body to X.
>>1412476
>but then there are cases where a woman literally steals the sperm out of the condom after sex and inserts it in and gets pregnant.
Is there any actual evidence of this?
>>1412485
>uses le dank maymay arrows without actually contributing to the thread
That's how I know someone has the mental capacity of a child.
>>1413786
No, this is a model. Variance does not imply artificiality.
>>1413769
One might argue that the being one top idea of dominating other people is the one that leads humanity into wars, neoliberalism and ecological suicide.
One might also aptly argue that the "being one top idea" behind war and "ecological suicide" is the need for resources.
>>1413790
Only one case has gotten into the news
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2056875/Liz-Jones-baby-craving-drove-steal-husbands-sperm-ultimate-deception.html
>>1411527
Well gender equality has already been achieved in most western countries so there is no real point to feminism anymore
>>1413473
>>1413473
>Economic shifts, not political or social movements, are responsible for the advancement of women in the world. Things changed after women filled the workforce during WW2, especially in America. Hitler was aware that once a country went down this road, there was no going back, and for this reason he chose to use forced labor rather than put German women to work. It was a bad decision with ideological motives behind it, but his reasoning was sound. There is nothing wrong with women working, but it does drastically alter the arrangement of society.
I'd say more women in the workforce is an inevitable consequence of the demographic transition. We no longer need a high birthrate to provide the masses of unskilled workers, so the traditional family structure (or at least the idea that nearly everyone should be a member of a reproductive unit) is basically incompatible with post-industrial society. It may not be a change we want to deal with, but it is more or less inevitable.
>Famous people like Emma Watson call themselves feminists without really understanding what that means. It's hip, and it goes hand in hand with the greater movement towards 'social justice'.
This here seems to be a fallacy of "I'm committed to not liking feminism, so any form of "feminism" which I don't have a problem with must not be real feminism."
>Nietzsche told us very clearly over 100 years ago, the healthier a woman is, the more fruitful she is, the less interest she has for so called 'equal rights'.
Yes and of course Nietzsche extensively studied the women's rights movements, did he not? It's nothing more than a witty-sounding quote based on "common sense" and not any actual data.
>There is also no such thing as genuine misandry. Misandry is only a more covert form of misogyny.
So if I say "men are prone to commit senseless violence and cannot be trusted not to rape a woman", that is misogyny?
>>1413625
>intersex people are rare, it's safe to pretend they don't exist.
Intersex means you had a mutation and failed to develop correctly into either a male or female. XXY is not a different gender. It's a fucked up crippled version of one of the two genders that factually exist.
>y-you're confusing sex with gender!
If you're talking about nature, then gender doesn't even exist, as gender as you describe it is PURELY a social construct with literally zero basis upon nature.
You're clearly trying to talk about sex, and you mask it as gender so people aren't allowed to contradict you.
>>1413789
>These two are different between sexes. Biologically different, as in motivated by hormones and DNA. You can't change these just because you want to, no more than you can switch all the Y chromosomes in your body to X.
1) There is something called epigentics and education. The upbringing and the social situation changes the very function of the brain and the body. The standard paper on this would be "Throwing like a girl". Which is like 25 years old...
2) Every taste you exercise would be influenced by the very biological foundations you claim to be true i.e. you would need test designed and performed by people who are neither male nor female. It's just a different kind of the standard tanks-in-a-brain problem. We can only talk about gender on the basis of the gender roles we have been programmed with.
3. >These two are different between sexes
Yes, and I did not fight this statement at all so why repeat it?
>>1413799
>dailymail
Source criticism everyone.
>>1413783
>Andreas Reckwith
Can you link me to his writings or a wiki? I don't see any 19th century thinkers by this name.
>it has since been exported all over the world
Bedouin cultural practices can't be considered toxic masculinity? Or are they practicing western masculinity? What part of Western Masculinity supports the ban of Sati, FGM, and the popular promotion of egalitarian societies? Those are some of the fruits of a society dominated by western masculinity to me.
>>1413803
But muh catcalls
>>1413820
It's bullshit, don't even bother.
He has no idea what the shit he is spouting and is just going with the usual narrative of the exceptional white, the cause of all good and evil throughout the Earth.
>>1413820
Sorry, his name is Andreas Reckwitz. He is still alive and published about this (in English too I guess).
Also I already stated that I don't embrace non-Western masculinity is just because it's not from the West. I honestly can't answer any of your question you posed cause I don't know shit about Northern Africa. Could you please specify what you are trying to say/ask?
Minority women (especially Black and trans) and the cult of Beyonce really destroyed any credibility left in pop feminism
>>1413839
Yeah except I stated the exact opposite of what you are saying:
> I also do not think that a non-western masculinity offers some solution just because it is non western
>the usual narrative of the exceptional white, the cause of all good and evil throughout the Earth.
Well, this IS the assumption of all of Western history. We are the ones who colonized and enslaved pretty much all of the world. This is a priori neither good nor bad but an explanandum .
>>1413473
>>1413804
(cont)
Ultimately, the essay seems to be arguing that since many women are happy living in a traditional role and being dependent on men, feminism is actually an anti-woman movement. That is utterly nonsensical, feminists are not trying to stop women from living in traditional roles, but rather to give them more options. And anyone who thinks that the mere availability of those options is sufficient to "corrupt" women must not have a very high opinion of women to begin with.
>>1413591
>hurr I am fat because I am opressed, the capitalist system doesn't make healthy food available to me [still can't wrap my head around this one, knowing people who have actually went hungry due to being poor])
If you're really poor, you won't be able to get any food. But if you're slightly less poor, all you'll be able to afford is junk food, which provides adequate nutrition but still makes you fat. High quality food that is nutritious AND healthy tends to be more expensive.
>>1413643
Binary means you're either one or the other, NO EXCEPTIONS. Even one in a billion is enough to make it so that the gender binary is just an approximation, not reality. And the idea of "abberation" is a social construct, we just label it as such because it is uncommon. When you talk about "general rules", those are social constructs that we make to help us understand nature.
>>1413683
Then most men don't know what being masculine is either.
>>1413731
>What factors are beyond their control outside biology when it comes to western society?
So biology somehow "doesn't count"? And there are plenty of bigots who do have power, the number of people who see women are inferior is massively larger than the number of Nazis in this country.
>>1413740
Are you denying that sexual dominance is closely tied to masculinity?
>>1413741
Please elaborate.
>>1413751
"Entitlement culture" is too vague, it's not about thinking you're entitled to money or happiness or anything like that.
>>1413816
Are you actually saying you can educate your body to produce hormones in different quantities? How delusional are you?
Even the epigenetic claim is ridiculous. Have you any study that proves you can set up an environment that will make an Y chromosome express itself as an X one?
>Every taste you exercise would be influenced by the very biological foundations you claim to be true
Exactly. Which is why the gender roles we have been programmed with are the "real" ones. Everything else is purely cultural, might as well call americans a gender.
>>1413819
It's not a source you moron, it is a reported news story about a thing that happened. Not a fucking story.
Cheez..
>>1413782
The usual statistic is around 1 in 4. You MIGHT be able to get it under 1 in 10 if you decide only violent rapes by strangers "count".
>>1413806
The notion of there being a "correct" way to develop is purely a social construct. There is no intent or conscious planning in nature, nature does not distinguish between a harmful mutation and a beneficial one.
>>1413803
Honestly this. We have pretty much blanket equality, one could even say that women have advantage in many cases. I can't name a single man's right that a woman doesn't have.
So after we achieved textbook equality both de facto and de jure and now feminists have to literally invent new problems and bloat up their importance (oversexualization in videogames and other horseshit), otherwise they'd run out of things to bitch about. It's the same thing like DEA smuggling drugs to the US, if there were no drugs they would lose their job.
>>1413846
He is saying that there are more harmful practices of nonwestern origin and that western masculinity is in fact quite progressive.
You faggots just play pretend because it's been a tradition of the west to fetishize it's own shit. You did not export your masculinity standard, you did not create a more harmful enviroment, the western pattern is not the problem or even A problem.
>>1413871
>The usual statistic is around 1 in 4.*
Which is not true at all. Both of those are far too high.
>>1413858
>NO EXCEPTIONS
There are generally two.
>because it is uncommon
Yes, that's what makes it an aberration. So you agree with me.
>Social construct
This is starting to sound as meaningless as spooks. The idea of generality doesn't depend on humans or our synthesis of reality.
>To help us understand nature
To help us understand what generally happens in nature, yes.
>>1413846
There's a meme in so called "intersectional" circles that loves to homogenise all toxic masculinity practices the world over being based on colonial notions of western masculinity.
Eg. African's are only homophobic because Christian missionaries made them so, pre-colonial civilsations never had social relationships based around fear/bias/conflict between the same and the other
>>1413871
>1 in 4
This is either a shitty bait or you have some fantastically loose definition of rape.
>>1413887
The whole 1 in 4 thing comes from a decades old study that was, let's just say, un-academic. This is a good read on it http://honeybadgerbrigade.com/2014/10/08/rape-culture/
>>1413871
>only violent rapes by strangers "count"
>non violent sex with acquaintances is rape
So you're saying it's still rape if your partner fucks you without your objection?
You're mentally deranged.
>>1413863
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3848314/
http://nobaproject.com/modules/hormones-behavior
>Considered together, there are many examples of hormones influencing behavior and of behavior feeding back to influence hormone secretion
>http://www.blueknot.org.au/WHAT-WE-DO/Resources/General-Information/Impact-on-brain
etc.
>>1413858
>That is utterly nonsensical, feminists are not trying to stop women from living in traditional roles, but rather to give them more options.
Feminists are labeling those kinds of women their enemy and actively fighting them. Feminists refer to those women as the uncle toms of women.
>>1413858
>Are you denying that sexual dominance is closely tied to masculinity?
No, but I am quite flatly denying that the need for "sexual dominance" that is inherent in masculinity can, in and of itself, influence a man to commit violent crime. Were this the case, everyone who was "masculine" would rape, while there are plenty of "masculine" men that do not rape.
>>1413867
>it is a reported news story about a thing that happened. Not a fucking story.
source criticism everyone.
>>1413858
>But if you're slightly less poor, all you'll be able to afford is junk food
Not true, processed food is cheap yes but it's still cheaper to shop cheap ingredients and cook yourself. However that takes much more effort than first-worlders want. First generation immigrants at the bottom of the barrell from poor countries are most certainly eating more healthy than more well working class folk because they have a better relationship with food and diet. Ultimately it's easier to blame someone else, like those people who sue McDonalds for making them fat
>>1413881
So then what's the real statistic?
>There are generally two.
Which is why the gender binary is false. "Generally" does not mean "always".
>Yes, that's what makes it an aberration. So you agree with me.
But nature has no concept of an aberration. Nature does not "see" intersex people as being any different from males or females, it's just another way people can develop.
>This is starting to sound as meaningless as spooks. The idea of generality doesn't depend on humans or our synthesis of reality.
Social constructs are spooks. And "generality" can only exist as a social construct, because someone must decide where to draw the line. If something happens only 1 time out of 10, is that sufficient to say it "generally" doesn't happen?
>>1413887
How would you define rape then?
>>1413907
Okay. Refuse to believe it. It doesn't change the original point.
A woman could take sperm from an used condom and get herself pregnant. This is entirely feasible biologically, sperm is extremely enduring.
If a case like this happened, the man would have the same rights as normally. You're a fucking moron.
>>1413858
>And the idea of "abberation" is a social construct
It's an incredibly uncommon occurrence that directly fucks up your ability to reproduce, one of your most basic biological functions. It's factually, objectively in every sense of the term, an aberration. In fact it's even worse than an aberration, biologically.
>Biology
>a characteristic that deviates from the normal type.
>>1413858
>That is utterly nonsensical, feminists are not trying to stop women from living in traditional roles, but rather to give them more options.
See feminists attacking Kaley Cuoco for being a traditional wife.
>>1413858
The binary scale is still a scale, as in you can be located closeer to one end than another. Of course, this does not encompass third/non genders but that is about as credible as trans specism
>>1413912
>How would you define rape then?
Violent sexual act against one's will, I guess.
>>1413896
Proves nothing.
The claim isn't "hormones can't be influenced". The claim is "hormonal influence can be completely shifted between one sex and the other by external means".
No fucking shit the environment can influence some hormones, many of them exist with the specific purpose of reacting to the environment. The problem is the other ones.
>>1413894
If you are unable to reject, or you reject but are too weak to actually fight back, it's still rape.
>>1413897
I didn't say oppressed, I said disadvantaged.
>>1413904
The uncle toms are the ones who try to PREVENT other women from living in other ways. Uncle Tom doesn't mean being traditional, it means being traditional AND trying to force everyone else to be traditional too.
>>1413905
No one's claiming that masculinity is the ONLY factor, or that masculinity guarantees someone will rape.
>>1413915
Are you triggered? Also I know that sperm can live outside a body but only for like 5 minutes. So theoretically it's possible for a woman to do that. Practically it's unlikely.
>>1413928
>If you are unable to reject, or you reject but are too weak to actually fight back, it's still rape.
If it's forced upon you it's violent. If it isn't violent, you didn't reject it.
>>1413720
>We don't have to eliminate rape completely, but reduce it to a point where people don't live in fear of it. 1 in 10 women being raped in their lifetime is still way too high a rate.
First, there are no reliable statistics for the rape rate; I don't know where you got 1 in 10, but the statistics on this vary wildly from almost zero to 1 in 4 or even 1 in 3. The best we can go by is reported rapes (and we'll put aside that just because a crime is reported doesn't mean it occurred), which is a little above above 1 in 5000 in the US (or slightly less than 1 in 3000), and is even lower in Europe and East Asia. 0.025-.03% may seem high and it's easy to say it should be lower, but what do you propose? Crime, including violent crime, is an inevitability in a society that values free will.
Throwing out statistics like your 1 in 10 does cause people to live in fear, the same way preteen girls are told they have to be careful around virtually everyone, which stays with them their whole lives apparently, when they are far less likely to experience severe violence than their male peers. The group which experiences the most violence in the US, young males (especially young black males), does not have the same experience of fear despite significantly greater likelihood of being a victim of violence; should they be more afraid, and what is a reasonable point at which people should be afraid?
There is the possibility that women are, generally, just biologically more likely to be fearful than men. Women are 1.5 to 2 times a likely to experience symptoms of PTSD than men following a gender-neutral catastrophe of the same magnitude, such as a car crash or suffering severe burns. There could be an environmental explanation for this, as women are generally socialized to have much greater expectations of safety than men, but even then, is the solution to lower women expectation's of safety in order to reduce their fear? It's probable that nature and nurture are both at play.
>>1413928
Then why is it that we have to oppose the notion of masculinity? It neither guarantees the existence of rape nor solely motivates rape.
>>1413928
Well sure, that fits, but that would be like complaining that the sun is hot or that the air is breathable. There is just no point, accept, as Marcus Aurelius said, that somethings are outside of your control and be happy with what you can have within possibility.
>>1413912
>>1413893
>>1413887
The 1 in 4 statistic comes from a stupid college poll that considers catcalling and dumb shit like that as rape.
Also picrelated, apparently it's now rape if two drunk people have sex. But for some reason only the man is a rapist and not the woman, really makes you think.
>>1413858
>High quality food that is nutritious AND healthy tends to be more expensive.
I hate this meme so much.
Beans
Rice
Canned Veggies/Fruits
Canned Tuna
The occasional raw meat
The occasional fresh produce
>>1413928
What about those who choose not to be traditional and try to force everyone to be non-traditional?
Or the ones that complain about people's individual choices not fitting what their ideal is and think we should, as a society, force people into it?
Are they AntiToms?
>>1413917
>It's an incredibly uncommon occurrence that directly fucks up your ability to reproduce, one of your most basic biological functions. It's factually, objectively in every sense of the term, an aberration. In fact it's even worse than an aberration, biologically.
That definition still depends on social constructs. Nowhere does nature actually say, "everyone is supposed to reproduce". It's entirely possible to view intersex as some kind of non-reproductive third sex.
>a characteristic that deviates from the normal type.
So than being half a nanometer taller or shorter than average is an "aberration" as well? This is why I said you need to decide where to draw the line. Nature cannot make that kind of decision, which is why "aberration" is a social construct.
>>1413924
Usually, "gender binary" implies you're either one or the other, without the possibility of being somewhere in between.
>>1413925
There's still some vagueness around "violent" and "will".
Like, if someone holds you down while having sex with you, is that automatically violent, even if they're not beating you or anything?
And as for "will", if you have sex with an unconscious person, is it truly against their will if they have no awareness of it?
>>1413912
>"Generally" does not mean "always".
Correct. Generally there are two sexes. Universally there aren't.
>But nature has no concept of an aberration.
You aren't making sense. Aberration just means it doesn't happen often.
>If something happens only 1 time out of 10, is that sufficient to say it "generally" doesn't happen?
It needs context.
>>1413912
We don't know. Rape statistics vary from 5% to 25%.
The problem comes with unreported rapes, which we do not know if they are common or not. Feminists often like to believe that unreported rapes are extremely common, but again we can't know that.
The only thing we can do is do surveys, that ask women if they have been raped. (This is where the 1 in 4 comes from) For example the Bureau of Justice Statistics' "Violent Victimization of College Students" reported that rapes in college happen at a rate of 6 in 1000
But as we know, the answers the women give do not indicate anything since we don't know if they lie or not. It would be easier if we knew how common false rape statistics are but again, we do not: http://eprints.uwe.ac.uk/6478/1/Download.pdf
this meta-analysis of false rape is really good, and it shows how contradicting most studies about this issue are.
But according to more local information like
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5ykTAVRJ2o
and a report from the Finnish Police Force that said 2/3 of rape accusations in Helsinki were false women don't know what rape really means.
So: Rapes where the rapist is found guilty in court and convicted are extremely rare. And whether unreported rapes are common or not is not known. Studies on the subject are extremely varying and there are indications that women lie quite alot about rape and indications that they do not.
Claiming that 1/4 women get raped as a fact is dishonest, when most of academia and the people who study rapes acknowledge that the number is a mystery.
>>1413942
this.
>>1413931
>Are you triggered?
>UGH jeeze I GUESS it could happen, there are you happy now?!
>>1413944
>Like, if someone holds you down while having sex with you, is that automatically violent, even if they're not beating you or anything?
Yeah if you want to leave or want him to stop and he won't, then it's violence.
>>1413949
from 5‰ to 25%*
![ZKCXVpE[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/lOdpXB6.jpg "ZKCXVpE[1].jpg")
>>1413933
>If it isn't violent, you didn't reject it.
Friendly reminder that woman are lessers to men, and that they should be marginalized. Shitskin lovers and femcucks fuck off
>>1413912
http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5176
7 per 1000 people
>>1413926
You pre-suppose the existence of two different genders (not sex as in the sociological distinction) created by the hormonal structure cause by genetics. You can't prove that at all and I am tired of debunking this stuff desu since the books by Harraway and Celia Roberts are already fucking old. Yes, you can say that certain hormones are most likely to be found in women and others in men. What you logical just can't prove if what effects those hormones have on the behavior i.e. the gender since you would need to run tests of people raised in a society where this dichotomy is not-perpetuated. You have no control-group. There is sex and you are right that xy-mutations don't change that on a biological level. This truth though fails to explain what happens on the level of society.
>>1413928
>The uncle toms are the ones who try to PREVENT other women from living in other ways. Uncle Tom doesn't mean being traditional, it means being traditional AND trying to force everyone else to be traditional too.
You should tell that to the feminists.
>>1413964
That goes without saying, but the debate is more palatable if you don't mention it.
>>1412476
Doesn't sperm die pretty quick if left in open air?
>>1413955
>reading daily mail
>get assblasted cause people call you out for doing so
>>1413966
/pol/ cucks don't deal with facts
what I said is a fact
