What made them so successful? If Genghis didn't die do you think they would conquer whole Europe?
>>1403532
>Adaptablity, great numbers and horse mounted warriors made them sucessful
>If Genghis or The Great Khan didnt die he very well couldve layed a seige to Europe, however the problem would be consalidating power of the vast amount of land he conquered.
Hope I helped....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_military_tactics_and_organization
TL;DR fucking outplayed
Their success was that Europe and the ME was fragmented and decentralized with no organized army.
>>1403532
>If Genghis didn't die do you think they would conquer whole Europe?
No. The Mongols began running into trouble once they ventured into Europe because there were no longer large expanses of flat grassland, meaning their horsemanship was hampered by forests, hills, mountains, etc.
Second, the climate of Europe in general is much more more humid than that of the steppes, and their bows of horsestring and horse-glue began to come apart and be less effective.
>>1404315
What about the Orient?
>>1403532
Subutai was GOAT
>>1404315
Bullshit.
They BTFO Khwarezmid, one of the biggest Persian empires ever
They BTFO a coalition of almost all the Russian princes and the Cumans
They BTFO the armies of Hungary and Poland within two days of eachother, both of which outnumbered them
>>1404498
They also got defeated by peasant armies - the vlachs and croatians.
Not to mention that they never fought against the best of Europe - France and England.
>>1406860
They'd wreck the shit out of France
English longbows might give them some trouble though,
>>1406868
Oh really? They got defeated by hungarians.
>The invading force entered and burned the town of Pest, which had long since been abandoned by its population, who fled south and west of the Danube.[25] During this event, members of Queen Elizabeth's household launched a spirited and effective sally against the Mongols, while she watched from the safety of the walls of Buda.[26] The Mongols were ultimately defeated[27] when met head-on in battle by the hastily assembled royal army of Ladislaus IV, in the hills of western Transylvania.[28] The army had benefited from the reforms and had a higher proportion of "knights" than the army the Mongols had defeated a few decades earlier at Mohi.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Mongol_invasion_of_Hungary
The mongols were just lucky thats it, during their first conquest they only met weak kingdoms and people like the Rus and Xiaxia, stuff changed when they got into western europe.
Later they got btfo 5 times by the mamlukes. The mongols were nothing, just the biggest luckers, give the kingdom of France 5 million horses and they will conquer everything better then the Mongols.
LITTLE
>>1406899
YELLOW
>>1406901
DICKS
>>1403532
Where the Mongols really the large Asian land empire known as Tartaria?
>>1406911
NON-HORSEFUCKING
>>1406914
COCKS
>>1403532
Who would win? 100 U.S. Marines or 10,000 gorillas?
>>1403532
>What made them so successful?
Fighting weak kingdoms that finished themselves off, even without the mongols.
>>1406928
I can relate. I finish myself off regularly, and I am also weak.
>>1406919
Well I'm pretty sure Marines are well-trained in gorilla warfare
>>1406948
Silly you, marines aren't apes.
>>1403532
>What made them so successful?
Skill and weapon systems only nomadic peoples could take advantage of such as skilled horse riding and very acute tracking and ranging.
The ability to go days without food in extremely cold conditions and tricks of getting food that only a Mongol would know.
Having access to more horses than anywhere else on Earth could and being able to assemble fully mobile armies that were faster than any other with this "horse technology".
General strength and toughness that allowed you to pull a bow with a common pull weight of 200+ pounds and eat raw animals without getting sick.
General hardiness from cold temperatures that allowed you to wage lengthy winter campaigns which gave you a huge advantage and the element of surprise.
The ability for a single soldier to forge and survive on their own which allowed for again, lengthy campaigns which could accomplish things at lightning pace compared to a settled army which would need to camp for the winter.
A society which was highly warlike and resulted in a typical Mongol killing many people at a young age and being much more adept at killing compared to a human in a settled society and also led to extremely adept competent generals. This also led to much more strict armies and soldiers who were very drilled and could perform high level maneuvers on the fly in the battlefield. This society also produced individuals who were much more resilient if not immune to battle fatigue which was a massive advantage in itself.
The Mongol's primary disadvantages were of the nomadic societies being unable to produce more advanced technologies in mass (like guns) due their nature even though the Mongol's readily adapted gunpowder and siege weapons into their armies which allowed them to be such a successful world spanning empire. These nomadic societies also had generally low populations compared to settled ones and when guns were invented nomadic society pretty much collapsed.
>>1406968
So much "skills", yet the mongols never suceeded against densily populated societies which were NOT in civil war.
>>1406968
>successful world spanning empire
Sparsely populated steppes and a few kingdoms conquered during civil war are not "the world", for fucks sake they even failed to conquer POLAND the country of toiletcleaners and car thiefs.
>1406986
>Christian propaganda
Ok so lets see their success against Muslims.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ain_Jalut
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Battle_of_Homs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Elbistan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Homs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Marj_al-Saffar_(1303)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_of_India
all of them they FUCKING LOST, so much for the "biggest empire the world has seen".
Like i said luckers, nothing else.
>>1407002
So the Mongols didnt burn down Baghdad? ;)
>>1406968
>The ability to go days without food in extremely cold conditions and tricks of getting food that only a Mongol would know
Look, mongols are cool and all, but this is just plain untrue. They had to raid and pillage for a very large amount of their supplies and trade with sedentary peoples prior to Genghis Khan was very common.
>pull weight of 200+ pounds
No.
>eat raw animals without getting sick
No. And I don't advise trying it.
>This also led to much more strict armies and soldiers who were very drilled and could perform high level maneuvers on the fly in the battlefield.
No. They were skilled, but not from their life style.
> who were much more resilient if not immune to battle fatigue which was a massive advantage in itself
This isn't even a thing. Are you trying to say they were fit? Trained? Or that they leveled up their endurance stats?
>world spanning empire
They didn't reach Mars let alone the New World.
>>1407007
Baghdad was nothing in the 13th century, it was once the capital of the more powerful Abbasid caliphate but their golden age was long ago - in the 9th century.
>>1407012
That is not what battle fatigue is.
Yes, there are many testimonies of what Mongols ate.
Yes, some bows even had 250 pound pull weight. Even English War bows had heavy pull weights like that otherwise they would not be effective in piercing armor and useless in battle.
I'm also saying what they did do in campaigns and in very many campaigns they were is sub zero temperatures with little to no food except what they could trap or bring with them.
Nowhere did I say that they did not resupply from local farms and villages, that's literally what Mongols or any army did most of the time and I figured it not worth mentioning.
>>1407041
>That is not what battle fatigue is.
Then what is it and why/how were they "immune" to it?
>Yes, there are many testimonies of what Mongols ate.
Post them.
>some bows even had 250 pound pull weight.
Post a source
>English War bows had heavy pull weights like that otherwise they would not be effective in piercing armor
They weren't.
>useless in battle
Not everyone had armor.
>with little to no food except what they could trap or bring with them
>trapping and carrying supplies is something "only a Mongol would know"
outright stupid, they were in foreign lands, they didn't know any "secret survival techniques" in fucking Iraq. Still, the majority of their supplies came from sedentary peoples and raiding villages. You act as if they're a self-sufficient Bear Grylls survivor men, which they are far from.
>>1407002
>Sparsely populated steppes and a few kingdoms conquered during civil war are not "the world", for fucks sake they even failed to conquer POLAND the country of toiletcleaners and car thiefs.
The Middle East and all of China and all of Russia + the entire Stepp as a bonus was the vast majority of the civilization and population of the world in the 1250s~ trying to refute that would be amusing.
>>1406986
>Japan
>mamelukes
>Chrristian
I'd be mad too if my entire force were BTFO by wind and rain.
>>1407055
please stop embarrassing yourself, yes English war bows or any war bow had heavy pull weights modern bows are not warbows
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7c1okvMP8m4
>>1407058
>The Middle East and all of China and all of Russia + the entire Stepp as a bonus was the vast majority of the civilization and population of the world in the 1250s~ trying to refute that would be amusing.
What about Japan which was another big east asian civilization? And India which was like the biggest religious civilization of all of ASIA! (Buddism, martials arts and etc originated from there)
And lets not forget western europe, which was technologicaly more advanced then all others > Crossbows, plate armor, mixed arms, castles which the mongols failed to capture.
Oh and there is still egypt with its ancient history.
All the above the mongols failed to conquer!
If you still think that the backwater states in civil war that the mongols conquered due to sheer luck were "THE WORLD" then you are seriously deluded.
No because crossbowmen would've btfo the mongors
>>1407070
>36 inch draw length
>modern bow
>implying it'll even survive after more than a quiver of arrows
Tells nothing. And it still isn't your claimed 250
>had heavy pull weights
No shit, they MAXED at 200, 170-180 was average.
>modern bows are not warbows
Yes, this is obvious. Modern bows use different technology and achieve higher draw weights
After Hungary got fucking wrecked, they were already doing huge reforms to prevent a second catastrophe. The Mongols couldn't breach bigass stone fortifications, even with Genghis. His legacy would have just been smudged more.
>>1406911
>1500's
>>1406904
not a majority Mongol force who were mostly fail Mongols that couldn't secure territory in the East and defeated by weather killing horses
>>1406901
same thing
>>1406899
Pretty typical that >Wikipedia would use heavily biased Arab sources and discount Mongol ones. Oh and the forces they fought were mostly Kipchaks using Mongol tactics and not even of Arab origin like any typical fraud Mamluk slave army that used foreigners at the time. I hope you also know that the Mongol force was literally Christian
>>1407015
are you fucking serious Baghdad was the literal second or third largest city in the world before the Mongols sacked it
>>1407142
The city was under garrisoned also
>>1406991
Well the Mongols were actually very skilled diplomats. Another reason why they were so successful and would only attack people who were perceived to be weak and often created alliances to take down states.
>>1407149
yes, because the Mongols had btfo dozens of Arab armies and cities before getting there
Were the Mongols ultimately worse for the world or ultimately better?
I feel like I'll have to go with worse. Yes they may have given the west an edge by destroying Islamic civilisation and creating a century of peace between Europe and China but they destroyed so much, not just Islamic but so much in the east as well. Entire peoples, entirely cultures, gone.
>>1407160
>very skilled diplomats
Mongol invasion of Japan:
>Kublai: pay tribute to the yuan or we will invade you
>Japan: No!
>Mongols: ok we invade you!
>gets defeated by wind and rain
>"SKILLED"
>"DIPLOMATIC"
>"EMPIRE"
>>1407185
Don't forget when the Mongols actually landed
>btfo so hard they withdrew
>try again
>wind and rain defeat them again
>lose literally every battle on land
Weeaboos confirmed stronger than mongolaboos
>>1407142
So what? The Hungarians were only 3 million and they defeated the Mongols with light casualties. And the Mamlukes defeated them 5 times in a row, same for the Delhi Sultanate!
> Negudari governor Abdullah, who was a son of Chagatai Khan's great grandson,[7] invaded Punjab with his force in 1292, but their advance guard under Ulghu was defeated and taken prisoner by the Khalji Sultan
>1299, against advice, Delhi sultan Alauddin Khilji attacked the Mongols. The advance guard of the Khilji army was led by Zafar Khan himself. He defeated the Mongols and pursued of them as they withdrew.
>>1407185
This is just poor reasoning, who exactly are the mongols supposed to ally to take down Japan? All you've posted is a military defeat.
>british
>skilled diplomatic empire
>b-b-but the boer war!!!!
>>1407205
>>1407211
Yep, the mongoloids were loosing on land and in naval battles!
>Muh storms proven to be a lie.
God...I hate Mongols, My grandfather hated them too, even before they put out his eyes. Did you think I'd be out here on the frontier without good reason? Yes, Christendom needs a strong frontier. No, Christendom doesn't need unwashed barbarians at her gates! So, that's why I'm here, the leader of the Crusade: to bring Christian order to stinking Mongols. Revenge? That'd be good too. This war against the Mongolss won't last long, and when it's done, I've got plans. This is all about power, power in Rome. Going down that road means dealing with all my rivals: the Orthodoxy, the Greeks, those Pagan tree-worshippers, the Cathars and lastly the Muslims too. After all, the man who controls Rome rules Christendom...and one day, I will be Pope.
>>1403532
1st gen Mongols were tough as nails and BTFOd the Chinese man for man, but had trouble with sieges. They solved that problem (stole lots of Chinamen) and had great success.
2nd gen Mongols now had riches and weren't as tough, but still BTFOd almost the entire Middle East. That one butthurt dude is having to cherry pick losses because of how thoroughly successful they were in that area of the world.
3rd gen Mongols had started to get soft, and this is around the time the empire started to fall apart due to succession issues as well as the social downsides of having pillaged all the good loot in a large part of the developed world. Combine this with the less than ideal conditions for their forces in India and Western Europe, and they really had no chance to keep it together, let alone push their borders farther.
From then on, then Khanates all had varying degrees of being irrelevant, except for based Kublai, although his state was basically just a new version of China.
>>1407225
kek, RTW intros were great
>>1407221
all Chinks with Mongol commanders
If the Indo-Europeans supposedly domesticated the horse, why were the Mongols so good at horse warfare?
Polish have the most r1a out of anyone, but they got btfo
>>1407331
Because when they moved into Europe they obviously adapted their style of warfare to European conditions, which aren't as favourable to nomadic horse warfare.
>>1407093
>Japan
>major Asian power of the 13th century
They were literally still China's cockslaves
>India
>not knowing about the fucking Mughals
>you know, the Mongol successor state that conquered India
Boohoo, they didn't get Egypt or Western Europe, but they still rekt half of the fucking known world
>>1407598
>Mughals
>Mongols
Cease speaking of things you know little about.
>>1407639
The Mughal emperors were Central Asian Turco-Mongols belonging to the Timurid dynasty, who claimed direct descent from both Genghis Khan (founder of the Mongol Empire, through his son Chagatai Khan) and Timur (Turco-Mongol conqueror who founded the Timurid Empire).
They were fucking garbage and wouldn't conquer any country with proper defense. The Nogai Horde invaded heavily fortified Hungary and got thoroughly BTFO.
>inb4 muh sturdy Chinese fortresses
Those were shit, usually just one big stone tower, just compare the layout to European castles.
>>1407598
>you know, the Mongol successor state that conquered India
And yet the founder of the Mughal Empire Babur hated the mongols, read the Baburnoma
>>1407331
Why would being the ones that domesticated the horse give them any advantage at all 4000 years after it had spread across the entire continent?
>>1406968
>200+ punds
No.
Stop making shit up.
>Yes, some bows even had 250 pound pull weight. Even English War bows had heavy pull weights like that otherwise they would not be effective in piercing armor and useless in battle.
No. Post sources, or kill yourself.
>>1407650
The Mughal Emperors did not like the Mongols and only traced their lineage to Timur. They saw themselves as lordly Persianate Muslim Nobles who spoke Farsi and enjoyed all things Muslim & Persian.
The army that Invaded India itself wasn't a Mongol army, it consisted of Babur's liege men who followed their landless lord around when he was ousted from Transoxania by invading Uzbeks.
To these people, a Mongol was a barbarian who only knows of pillage and rapine. He is also often a pagan scum who wont convert and worships the sky like a savage. The Dynasty called itself "Gurkani" or "Timurid" and hated the appellation "Mughal," which is what their Hindu Subjects and Persian neighbors called them because as far as the average Poo/Iranian was concerned, anyone on a horse looking chinky, and twanging a bow was a "Mongol."
>Were the Mongols a race of Angels, they would still be abominations. Written in gold, the name Mongol would still be a filthy.
>Pluck not an ear from the Mongol's field. What is sown with Mongol seed has an odious yield.
>When winning, the Mongol is a savage towards the conquered. When losing, the Mongol turns on his allies and loots them before fleeing.
Babur, from his autobiography. He hated the Mongols, both those he fought against in Transoxania and in Afghanistan, and those who fought for him as mercenaries.
We have this thread numerous times every day. Is the average 4chan user so illiterate that he fancies himself historically knowledgeable because he can come on /his/ and post about the Mongols?
>>1407127
what the fuck does it matter if the mongoloid force where christians, they where still mongols
>>1410896
To be fair how many people on average do you think know the Mongols even existed? 10%? 5%?
>>1403532
Absolutely, if they devoted as much time and effort into the conquest of the continent as much as they did in the conquest of China. Only the /pol/cucks think otherwise.
However the Mongols didn't because Europe was an irrelevant backwater with little to nothing offer and the first invasion itself was nothing but a side-theater.
>>1407279
what are RTW?
>>1413137
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWVgQYN37yk
>>1410896
We have this thread numerous times every day. Is the average 4chan user so illiterate that he fancies himself historically knowledgeable because he can come on /his/ and post about the Byzantines?
>>1410825
I already posed a source, throw yourself out a window.
>>1406860
They actually did fight against a contingent of Knights Templar at the height of their order's power in Hungary. That probably would have been among the best Europe had to offer. In fact, they wrekt the shit out of the Mongols at first but then the Mongols got really clever and did this thing where they'd pincer them into increasingly smaller and smaller groups and just keep stabbing the knight with spears until it was dead. It was actually costly as shit and even though they killed every single Knight Templar, they lost a lot of guys doing it apparently.
I forgot the name of the battle, somewhere in Hungary.
As far as Europe resisting Mongol invasion, thats seriously doubtful. MAYBE. Once Mongols successfully moved into Hungary, European kings scrambled to send emissaries snd ambassadors to their vanguard to likely negotiate peace or something
>>1413166
ok lol, ty
>>1413237
>contingent of Knights Templar
yes, but against a max ammount of 200 and they almost lost. Good european armies had 1000s of knights/ men-at-arms.
Just look at Barbarossa's campaign:
> Frederick organized a grand army of 100,000 men (including 20,000 knights) and set out on the overland route to the Holy Land
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_I,_Holy_Roman_Emperor
or look at the guys they didn't even want to fight in the first invasion!
>Following the Mongol victory at the Battle of Legnica, Wenceslaus fell back to gather reinforcements from Thuringia and Saxony, but was overtaken by the Mongol vanguard at Kłodzko. However, the Bohemian cavalry easily fended off the Mongol detachment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenceslaus_I_of_Bohemia
As you can see, the mongols never fought against the best, and when they tried fighting against a stronger Hungary in 1280 they got BTFO by its better armies.
>The Mongols were ultimately defeated[27] when met head-on in battle by the hastily assembled royal army of Ladislaus IV, in the hills of western Transylvania.[28] The army had benefited from the reforms and had a higher proportion of "knights" than the army the Mongols had defeated a few decades earlier at Mohi.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Mongol_invasion_of_Hungary
Get over the Mongols, they were just the Justin Bieber of history.
Any good country which was not splitted off into many parts would BTFO them.
Japan did it,
India did it.
Egypt did it.
later even Eastern Europe did it.
Conquering Steppes is only hard when you don't have alot of horses, steppes don't have castles or alot of people defending them, just a few nomads.
>>1412438
Conquering Riceniggers is a different thing then conquering the masters of warfare - the Europeans.
Keep in mind that the Mongols were still using 2000 year old horse zerg tactics while Europe constantly evolved - the castles they built were proof of this.
>>1403532
Mandate of heaven
>>1404315
No, their success was that they fought empires that would collapse upon losing their capitals or having their king captured. They never needed to waste themselves trying to pacify whole regions, they just went straight for the power centres and subdued those. All the periferies scarcely gave a shit, one foreign ruler is the same as the other.
Europe would have been a disaster for them.
>>1403532
>If Genghis didn't die do you think they would conquer whole Europe?
No, the Mongols got BTFO'd by Hungary after they built more castles, and relied on crossbowmen and heavily armoured knights as troops.
>>1413870
>/pol/cucking intensifies
