Do you want to talk about fascist Italy?
el italiANO
No? I don't see why anyone would want to bother, unless they're bored and want to have a pop-history circlejerk about how much they sucked militarily.
mussolini was a retarded faggot
>>1402025
MUH ETHIOPIA
>>1402019
futurism was a beautifull conception..
>>1402050
Evola please go
>>1402019
It's unrelated but were there any large fascist movements in France during or before the war? I'm also curious about the French that joined the German military.
![tumblr_mv2tqak6vO1sm0dvfo2_400[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/mEUHBBp.jpg "tumblr_mv2tqak6vO1sm0dvfo2_400[1].jpg")
>>1402019
>Mussolini before Hitler
>"Thirty centuries of history allow us to look with supreme pity on certain doctrines which are preached beyond the Alps by the descendants of those who were illiterate when Rome had Caesar, Virgil and Augustus."
>Mussolini after Hitler
>"All praise the Germanic master race! Italians are 100% Lombardic btw!"
What happened?
>>1403211
Yes.
The French were probably the most prolific Axis-collaborators as much as they try to pretend otherwise.
>>1403221
Overwhelming superiority of the German military. You'd be cozy with Hans too after you saw how they could blitzkrieg the shit out of Poland and their neighbors.
>>1403296
>shermans crossing the alps
*gasp*
>>1402019
Well this board is full of left wing pieces of shit, so probably not, shitty claims are gonna pop up like how the italians also gassed people or something.
>>1403387
autism
>>1403387
Well Mussolini was a huge lefty. Fascism is just one of the most tolerable liberal ideologies
What were the economics principles of Italian fascism like?
>>1403231
Yep, funn fact. SS members who were holding a Hitlers bunker at the end of battle of Berlin were all French
>>1403453
North Korea.
Was the Roman Empire fascist?
>>1403643
Read a book.
>>1403643
Pls tell me you are joking
>>1403650
Nope, but you can argue that every empire ever existed had some elements of fascism
>>1403387
he was part of the Italian socialist party.
He just went power mad abandoned his socialism in favor of ultimate power. He was a walking contradiction.
EYYY MI PAISANO A PIZZA PASTA HMMM EYY YOOOO
>>1403296
There were also certain Fascists who idolized Hitler and National Socialism and others who were passionately against it.
>>1403643
:::::::::::::::::^^^^^^^^^)))))))
>>1403941
Reasonable point except North Korea isn't communist in its current state.
the absolute madman of the 20th century
>>1407108
it's just a disaster tbqh
it'd be very unfair to say Italy was ever in such a state
>>1402019
It was fucking shit economically, industrially and militarily and the country suffered greatly for it but most people on /his/ for some reason think it was the hottest shit and a testimony to the greatness of Il Fascismo.
Just goes to show the actual historical knowledge most people on here possess.
>>1407255
how was it bad industrially if there was near no industry previously and Mussolini managed to get one going with an autarky?
>>1407286
>there was near no industry previously
Italian industry was growing rapidly at the beginning of the 1900s especially with the new automobile industries. The economy took a massive hit after World War 1 and then Mussolini came along promising to protect the interests of the Industrialists but just made things worse after the crisis of 29 with his dumb Quota 90 plan. He squandered what little military resources his country had on Ethiopia and the Spanish Civil War and almost killed the country out right after the he invaded Ethiopia and got all the import sanctions put on him, before World War 2 he was relying on Germany for most important heavy industry resources and still had a thirld world shithole tier military with almost no tanks, air defense weaponry, modern ships or post WW1 fighter planes.
>>1403211
You'd be very intrigued by the "February of 1934" uprisings, where right-wing groups were strewn across the streets of Paris and were threatening the french republic with their numbers.
While it has been overstated by the left, these groupings of fascist-prone groups out in the streets of Paris should disclose how close France came to tipping into fascism (which is why I abhor the "fascism only happened in those treated unfairly by Versailles :(((" since France was very liable to it too).
There's always been speculation that the morale within the french army was very low, as there was a wide array of emotions amidst it, ranging from those who openly greeted Germans and their fascist ways, and those who hated nazis with fervor.
France was indeed a very fascist-prone country in the inter-war years, and we may deny it, but our dealings with Germany through Petain also shed light on the fact that not many of us minded being affiliated to nazi Germany.
This why I often argue that one of Hitler's poorest choice was to alienate the french with his "germanic are le superior" faggotry, when he probably would've half of France (the fascist-friendly kind mind you) volunteering in his army if he had ignited the "Frankish spirit" instead (in a "hey frenchies, remember when we were bros under Charlemagne ;)" kind of way).
5 million more french men on Barbarossa certainly wouldn't have hurt. Instead all he got was the Charlemagne SS division of Frenchies.
>>1402019
I like Italian Social Republic
notice the "social" in name ;)
>>1408551
>>1410209
>le italians partisans meme
>>1403941
>Yuropoor tries to act superior
>Reveals himself to be a twit
Fascism is inherently liberal. It has no monarch or aristocracy. It finds itself in opposition to the church, a pillar of traditional regimes. It is inherently socialist, and Mussolini often pitched it as an alternative path to communism.
Is it "leftist" in the context of today's fucked up "everything is progressive or far right" use of the phrase? No. Is it "liberal" in the context of actual left right discourse, the opposition between the revolution and the ancien regime? Yes.
>>1410209
You are very smart. Your poorly drawed cartoons that have less content than an illustrated children's books are an accurate depiction of history. Specially since it fully depicts the reality of WW2 in all possible manners, angles and perspectives. Truly, these drawings are a masterpiece of history. They are very sharp arguments, and are very hard to refute. Look all those references, all those analogies and complex constructions that only someone as intelligent as anon could come up with. You are a mastermind of history, someone far beyond the league of any academic or university. Your comic easily refutes any argument, and it will go down in history as one of the most important works fo this century. You should be very proud of putting this point across here, it's very intellectual indeed.
>>1410209
>lets criticize a political ideology based on its militaries
>lets also ignore that axis powers were facing the whole fucking world alone
>heheheh im very smart and i have a john green sticker on my laptop
>>1410732
>>1403453
Fascist Italy, and other fascist states,
1. Implemented the corporatist system, in which different industries were organized into "corporations" (not to be confused with the American definition of corporation), with equal representation of workers, owners, and the government. This was motivated by a desire for class collaboration, to avoid the disunification of the nation by class conflict.
2. Strove for maximum autarky. The fascists, being nationalists, desired maximum sovereignty over the economy by the nation, so that the nation would not be subject to the whims of the international market.
3. Strove for maximum employment, and attempted such through large-scale public works projects. This is because humans are naturally intended to work, so unemployment results in undesirable social unrest.
t. fascist
>>1408689
Couldn't you consider the fact that France's victory in WW1 was so phyrric to be why they were the most vulnerable to fascism though?
>>1410803
What winning power didn't experience a phyrric victory? Japan didn't, but they were already crazy. And the US had an easy victory, and they were pretty fascist prone too. Hell, they elected a president for life with an honest to god cult of personality
IT IS SAID THAT ADOLF HITLER WEPT UPON BEING INFORMED OF BENITO MUSSOLINI'S DISGRACEFUL DEATH, AND SEEING PHOTOGRAPHS OF HIS DEFORMED BODY.
>>1408551
Italy didn't work, Germany didn't work, Spain wasn't fascist under Franco, and Mosley never had any power. Next?
>>1403221
he was a politician obviously
>>1410682
Back to /pol/ trash
>>1410209
>tojo
>facism
>>1411703
Did I say fascism was good? Did I say we should gas the Jews? No, and my opinions about those points of irrelevant to where fascism falls on the political spectrum.
So do us all a favor, and shove your "the left is all poets, the right monsters" outlook up your own ass. After doing that, you can either learn the etymology of "liberal" versus "conservative" and contribute to the conversation, or you can fuck off back to Facebook or Tumblr or wherever else appreciates your MSNBC tier understanding of political theory.
>>1410682
>Fascism is inherently liberal.
Fuck off Yank.
>>1411703
>"I can't argue against the point being made"
>>1412277
I've explained how it is. Go ahead and explain how it's not.
To save you some typing, something can be liberal without going full "refugees welcome"
>>1412291
>Dictatorship
>Single party government
>Union suppression
>Concentration camps
>Liberal
You are a very confused little boy.
>>1412284
We know you can't.
>>1412307
Wat
>>1412304
wasn't all of this part of chile - one of most liberal states as of date?
our lolberals praise Hong Kong, Macao, Taiwan, Liechtenstein and Singapore as example of most liberal, free market states.
not that I defend allende, you must be pretty fucking desperate to vote second hitler into power xd. "the venus project" could have been a reality, whom do you think USaians stole internet idea from ?_?
Alessandra Mussolini, his grand-daughter, is an italian politician.
There are a lot of fascist party like casapound and forza nuova that have several offices in most of the cities.
>>1412304
>No monarch
>No aristocracy
>No power to religious institutions
>Pays lip service to unity amongst all classes
Hmm, looks like it doesn't have any right wing institutions in place.
BONUS ROUND
>concentration camps
>Implying these fall anywhere on the political spectrum
The USSR had concentration camps. Cuba has concentration camps. Britain and America have had concentration camps. North Korea and China have concentration camps.
Fascism is basically authoritarian centrism, centrist because it's all over the map depending on what issue you're talking about. And compared to any actual right wing government, centrism is
Fucking
Liberal
>>1403351
>elephants crossing the alps
*gasp*
>>1412307
Probably because he agrees, like any reasonable person would.
>>1412359
OVER THE ALPS PERHAPS
why does fascism fit so well with the italian language?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilXa3wX-j4M
>>1412522
Well, considering that you classified the right as leaving democracy and having concentration camps, it looks like sweeping generalizations are the order of the day
Fascism is deontological dynamic nihilism. The fascist says: "There are no objective or absolute truths, except for those that I WILL to be true". The confusion of so many people in regards to fascism is that they ask: "what is the doctrine?" or "what are the ethical rules that stand outside of the fascist, the rules that instruct him?". Fascism is the conclusion of existential nihilism. Fascism was a natural product of the early 20th century, as a rejection of positivism, and was birthed in late 19th century philosophy. It is modernist and dynamic, not conservative my any means.
Italian fascism rose out of Syndicalism. The belief was that, in a weak and newly united Italy, only NATIONAL Syndicalism could industrialize the country. Mussolini edited a Socialist Paper and most of the fascist thinkers were Socialist Anarcho-Syndicalists. Fascism, or "National-Syndicalism", overturned Anarcho-Syndicalism and was seen as the unavoidable "next step" ideologically. Class divided a nation and democracy divided a nation. This prompted Mussolini's words: "'Every anarchist is a baffled dictator'".
Mosley's head ideologue, Raven Thompson, published a Syndicalist rejection of Spengler in "Civilization as Divine Superman", and was a Anarcho-Syndicalist or at least a fellow traveler of communism. Mosley was a leftist-modernist, his proposed employment reforms were pure-Keynesian, and he was anti-Neoclassical (or "classical" economics as it was then known). Mosley's fascism followed much the same Anarcho-Syndicalist -> National-Syndicalist process. Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NqG2lAojNQ He was a "feminist" of sorts and was in many ways a crypto-communist.
>>1412560
That wasn't me nor did the original poster imply that
Most people have different definitions of what the left/right are anyway so it's useless to argue about that
The point being is fascism is in complete opposition to liberalism and Mussolini explicitly states this in his manifesto
>>1412593
btw Thompson is on the far-right in that pic (no pun intended)
>>1412522
>Allende
>Economically liberal
>>1412600
Weren't you referring to Pinochet's economy?
I don't see how Allende was liberal at all
>>1412522
Are you an American confusing liberalism and leftwing?
They're not the same.
>>1412765
>he fell for the left/right meme
and no, liberalism is a movement originating back to the revolution that puts forward economic and social freedom
although it has vastly evolved over the centuries, it remains a movement that believes in minimal control over the people and market
you should be more concerned about the person that said fascism was liberal
>>1413001
best answer
>>1411042
>Italy didn't work
It worked fine until it was toppled by war.
>Germany didn't work
Again, it worked fine until it was toppled by war.
>Spain wasn't fascist under Franco
Do you think that "Jose Antonio Primo de Rivera" spells "Francisco Franco"?
>Mosley never had any power
So? The pic specifically says that the British government shut them down to prevent them from gaining power.
>>1410682
>Fascism is inherently liberal
What the fuck do you think liberalism is?
>>1414079
Opposition to traditional institutions
@1414102
I can see you're trying very hard but this effort is not enough for a (You)
>>1402019
there were many Jews in the National Fascist Party, such as Ettore Ovazza who in 1935 founded the Jewish Fascist paper La Nostra Bandiera ("Our Flag")
Ettore Ovazza was one of the 230 Italian Jews who participated in 1922 March on Rome that installed Mussolini in power. In fact, the number of Jews who signed up as fascists was disproportionately high. Ovazza started a Jewish fascist newspaper, “La Nostra Bandiera” (Our Flag) in an effort to show that the Jews were among the regime’s most loyal followers.
Ovazza’s father, Ernesto, was the leader of the Turin Jewish community
One of the Jewish financial supporters of the Fascist movement, was Toeplitz
Early on there were prominent Jewish Italian Fascists such as Aldo Finz
there had been notable Jewish Italians who had been senior Italian fascist officials
The novelist Girorgio Bassani stated that he does not remember a single Jew who was not a fascist.
>>1415755
Stille describes how widespread Jewish fascism was, "In Italy, Jewish fascism was a real ideological movement, a mass phenomenon, as much as that was possible in Italy’s tiny Jewish population of 47,000.
a number of Italian Jews held significant State offices and positions inside the National Fascist Party. Examples include Aldo Finzi and Giuseppe Volpi Count of Misurata. The latter served as Italy's Finance Minister 1925–1928 and Governor of Tripolitania 1921–1925
Margherita Sarfatti was Jewish and was Benito Mussolini's biographer as well as one of his mistresses.
Even under fascism, the loyalty of Italian Jews for their country did not wane. On December 18, 1935, Italian leader Benito Mussolini declared a national day of faith in which Mussolini requested the wedding rings of Italian women. On that day, every Italian synagogue celebrated the day by playing the Royal March (the Savoy hymn) and the fascist song ‘Giovinezza.’ A patriotic sermon followed, and the Jewish women relinquished their wedding rings.
The Fascist regime also helped, at the request of Vladimir Jabotinski, the establishment in 1934 of a navy officer training camp in Civitavecchia for Mandatory Palestine Jews, laying the foundations of the Israeli Navy.
The Italian colonial authorities in Ethiopia after the conquest of this African state came into contact with the Beta Israel community and greatly favoured them, enacting special laws to protect them from offences and violences routinely committed against them by Christian and Muslim Ethiopians. The regime also encouraged cultural exchanges between the Italian Jewish community and the Ethiopian Jews.
http://www.acjna.org/acjna/articles_detail.aspx?id=300
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Italy
>>1410682
Fascism is in many ways a reaction to liberalism.
Do you know what fascism is? They were quite big on calling it this: Fascism is an attempt to form a third way.
But then "Third way" got stolen by people like Tony Blair and Bill Clinton to mean "Lol I'm in a left-wing party but I don't really care about the poor :^) "
>>1413492
It has to be remembered it was the war that *they* started, in part because it was economically necessary for Germany thanks to overinvestment in the military.
When saying "Oh, it worked fine until it was bombed into the ground" is all well and good until you remember the reason they were bombed into the ground is because they tried to bomb others into the ground first, and failed.
>>1410743
Who's decision was it to face the whole fucking world alone?
protip: the world didn't shoot first.
>>1412340
>Hmm, looks like it doesn't have any right wing institutions in place.
(In socialist terms) the exploitative classes retain ownership of the means of production and the power that goes with that.
Which is why Fascism was reasonably popular amongst those classes (as an alternative to socialism: Obviously they'd prefer neither.)
That they pay lip-service to class unity also underscores some rightist tendency when compared to the socialist doctrine of class consciousness and conflict.
>>1402019
Why is Mussolini so overlooked as a aesthetic-political theorist?
The only person I've seen do him justice in a way is Benjamin.
>>1412340
Left wing =\= Liberal
>>1403221
Did he actually say that? What a savage
>>1415919
>britain and france declare war on germany
>couple years later the whole fucking world declared war on germany
Yeah, WW2 was TOTALLY german agression.
>>1417154
>poland
>sudetes
>austria
muh germans dindu nuffin!
>>1417584
>austria
completely democratic referendum where people chose to be annexed
>sudetes
protection of opressed german minorities that was in fact agreed in the munich conference
>poland
prussia is rightful german clay. it's completely debatable.
>>1415926
>In socialist terms
Who cares about what socialists define fascism as?
>>1412593
Neat, thanks
>>1410682
> socialism is liberal
AHHWWWWW LAWDDDDDDDDY LAWDDDDD
also Mosley and his crew weren't Republicans you fucking american cunt, they loved god, queen, and country.
I SUPPOSE that you might be able to say that some of Mussolini's early (and some would say sincere) ideas about Christianity, race, and the monarchy were liberal but his policy certainly did not reflect his sincere ideas.
>>1403854
Fascism is socialist.
>>1410798
Couldn't have said it better my friend :)
t. fascist, but when asked by normies, national socialist, but when asked by normies who might know who national socialists are, socialist
Also, what differences between fascism and national-socialism would you say there are? if any?
>>1403221
He obviously felt that Germany wasn't going to hesitate to go and teach him a lesson so he did the smart thing (as you do when you're a dictator) and bowed to the man he most needed as his ally.
>>1418246
Fuck Mosley, he could have changed his country for the better, but he fucked the dog because he had wood for paramilitary groups
>>1417782
>lol dude it was ours even though germans don't live there anymore and we lost a war for it
>yeah we annexed but its not aggression lmao
>so what if britain had an alliance with them, they cant attack us because we were allowed to using our own warped logic lmao
>wtf britain declared war? how could this happen?
>germans dindu nuffin
>>1418250
Learn what they are
"National socialism" is just the official name for nazism and it bears little resemblance to nationalism (since it was based around racial hierarchy which they tried to support with science) or socialism (hitler supported the industrialists to get a powerful army going and only made socialist reforms to appease the people and get their approval)
Nazism only draws vague concepts from fascism which is already a very vague ideology
>>1408551
honestly this image would be a lot better if it didn't imply that Franco did anything wrong
>>1412593
Fascism is antithesis to any kind of nihilism. Nihilism leads to communism.
>>1402062
>futurism
>Evola
...
>>1419310
> socialists don't want to admit that natsoc is a form of socialism
> nationalists don't want to admit that natsoc is a form of nationalism
WEW LAD
>>1419880
Nazism was a worker's and lower classes' party at first, but it morphed into a wealthy industrialist and apparatchik clique. Not very socialist of them.
To claim it's not nationalistic however is beyond salvation.
>>1418250
good God, they're totally different things.
>>1419882
There's quite a funny pic where Hitler shows the NSDAP pamphlet to the wealthy industrialists and it runs:
NATIONAL
socialist
GERMAN
workers
PARTY
and then he shows the pamphlet to the working class and it runs:
national
SOCIALIST
german
WORKERS
PARTY
>>1419882
But then, all socialist parties eventually morph into clique-ish parties, because socialism is a delusion only entertained by mentally retarded and gullible youngsters.
>>1419882
It wasn't properly nationalistic
Let mussolini explain
>>1402020
baia baia que tenemos aqui
>>1417154
Britain and France gave Germany fair warming that they had a chance to withdraw before war would be declared. Germany ignored them.
>>1417797
Because it's very useful for explaining the difference between fascism and socialism.
When I say socialist terms it's more so I can use phrases like "exploitative classes" than it being a distinction that only occurs to socialists.
It also helps to put it on a left-right spectrum. "Here is what the far-left does, here is what you do. Relative to the far-left you are..."
>>1420063
Musolini changed his viewpoint though.
Italian fascism was actually kinda based before benito gave in to hitler's autistic beliefs about superiority and shit. Democratic governments are obviously still better, but early Mussolini wasn't that bad of a guy. Lil dude just wanted to make the trains stay on time
>>1412367
He'll lose half his army from attrition alone!
Mussolini, Dolfuss, Horthy, and Salazar did nothing wrong.
>>1402019
My grandma is from Italy, and was 20 when he died.
She said it was a very prosperous time, and that Italy should have won. Anyone else have fascist grandparents?
I was told by an Italian friend of mine that some manhole covers in poorer areas still have the Italian Facist symbol on them, can anyone confirm?
>>1403435
>Well Mussolini was a huge lefty. Fascism is just one of the most tolerable liberal ideologies
Tell me again how Mussolini is liberal or leftist. It seems that my European education is entirely different to yours? Did you go to Prager university by any chance?
>>1412593
Fascinating how facism and anarcho syndicalism can have the same political heritage when they are so different.
Are you being ideological about the similarities between fascism and the left and anarchism, or are you neutral?
I'm a libertarian leftie so I usually think people are simply misguided when comparing fascism and socialism, bu maybe there are some points to it?
It's ridiculous how discussion of political ideology turn into a shit flinging match when people debate whether Hitler or Mussolini were at the right or left. You should be able to disengage your political beliefs when talking about politics sometimes
Zizek has described fascism as a conservative revolution
What you are describing sounds more like anarchism than liberalism. Liberalism is the ideology about freedom that came out of the enlightement
>>1411703
Hes not with us, we tend to like fascism, and you all know we hate everything left
>>1422240
>tfw parents ran away from italy before the war
Maybe it was for the best but then again maybe if Italians weren't such cowards they wouldn't be wrecked for the best
>>1422362
>the same political heritage
I wrote that fascism (National-Syndicalism) mutated from Anarcho-Syndicalism. Panunzio and Corradini were both Syndicalists, anarchist revolutionaries at that. They saw Marxism as a form of positivist scientism and in at least in part rejecting him they began to morph into National-Syndicalists.
>Are you being ideological about the similarities between fascism and the left and anarchism, or are you neutral?
They are unavoidably "similar" since any casual reading of the architects of "fascism" reveals them all to be anti-traditional leftists. They were Socialists and Syndicalists, Mussolini was a Socialist. They were anti-racist, or at least not "race-realist", or tribalism.
Herr Hitler and his occult volkism have so overshadowed true fascism, that I feel it important to assert what fascism actually is and was. National Socialism is not fascism, fascism does mean "not desirable" today, and real fascism was Italian fascism. Mussolini's state did err from fascism, Hitler did put the boot on his throat, though from 1922 to 1924, his government could comfortably be described as "fascism".
>>1422372
>Zizek has described fascism as a conservative revolution
Zizek is wrong, fascism is anti-conservative and anti-traditional. There are revolutionary conservatives, though that expressed itself in Germany predominantly in the forms of "Prussian Socialism", and in a dilute form: "National Socialism".
What did he mean by this?
>>1423949
That's a Jewish hand gesture
>>1410682
I guess Franco was a progressive socialist by your logic then. Oh wait, he fought against those people and maintained the monarchy.
>>1412259
Liberal pretty much means capitalist republicanism of some form or another in any part of the world that's not America, so you've just revealed your Burgerlevel.
As for right wing poets and artists, no one suggests there weren't pic related.
>>1423949
"i fisted ur gf like dis"
>>1422528
>anti-conservative and anti-traditional
Why did it retain the monarchy, in that light?
