Why do people here say Persians are ethnically different than they were centuries ago? Is there any truth to this?
>>1401049
Yes.
Because countless invading parties passed through there like Greeks, Arabs, Turkics, and Mongols.
No
>>1401066
is totally wrong
The fact is, in the Old World, among dense, settled populations, ethnic replacement just doesn't happen. The Greeks, the Egyptians, the Persians, the British, they're all the same people who they were in ancient times, obviously with some admixture at the points of most contact.
>>1401081
That's right, the Mongolian genocide of the Hungarians never happened.
>You are now aware the Mongols killed 95% of Hungary.
>>1401066
It's a total meme to think they invaded in large enough numbers to have any noteworthy effect on the genetic makeup of the modern population. This goes for anywhere that got conquered in a similar fashion.
Hell, Azeris are apparently nigh-identical to Iranians genetically and they actually did experience widespread foreign settlement and linguistic replacement.
>>1401089
>https://hungarianspectrum.wordpress.com/2009/11/05/genetic-markers-in-the-hungarian-population-then-and-now/
>On the basis of their findings the Szeged reseachers came to the conclusion that the number of invaders was most likely very small because even in these very early graves only 36% of the people had markers indicating Asiatic origin. Fifty percent of them were of purely European origin, and their DNA composition indicated that their ancestors had lived in Europe for at least 40-50,000 years. By now this Asiatic element has almost disappeared: 84% of Hungarians are totally of European origin and only 16% carry Asiatic markers.
Well, there you have it. A country that was nearly completely depopulated by mongols is, to this day, overwhelmingly untouched in descent.
Keep in mind the use of the word "markers"; the 16% of hungarians today who have some remaining asiatic genes have it so diluted that they literally needed a test to find out.
Now, with this in mind, tell us about how places like China, Persia, and Anatolia, which didn't experience nearly as much depopulating or settlement, are totally just mongol rapebabies.
>>1401081
Nobody was talking of ethnic replacement, fucktard, I was talking about how people from different races settled there as its rulers and bringing along with them their people and contributing to the ethnicity of the cunts living there.
>>1401094
It's also a fucking meme to say its negligible. Especially in the case of Turkic rulers who literally moved in with their whole fucking nation.
>>1401061
that's why muriga is all indians like they were before right
>>1401123
>It's also a fucking meme to say its negligible.
Except it's not. It really is negligible. Most of the population will show literally no hint of it in their genotype whatsoever. A small fraction will show a heavily diluted amount.
I'm sorry this buttflusters you, Mehmet. I'll leave you alone now and you can go back to pretending turanism is a thing.
>>1401142
I'm not a Turk you moron. We're seriously just going to ignore the thousands of imported Mamluks and the shitloads of Turkic Dynasties created by migrating Nomads in Iran? Of course I'll mention them since their migrations and settlement in Iran was far greater than Greek Klerouchies under the Seleucids or Arabic rule.
If anything you're the buttflustered party here with your "muh pure race." schtick.
>>1401175
>thousands of imported Mamluks
Yeah, thousands. Into a population of millions.
>>1401175
>We're seriously just going to ignore the thousands of imported Mamluks and the shitloads of Turkic Dynasties created by migrating Nomads in Iran?
Yes, because it turns out they don't have much of an effect on a population that was already numbering in the millions.
I swear this is some of the most autistic shit imaginable. "There were dozens of them! DOZENS!"
>>1401136
No historical event is comparable to the apocalyptic plague that demolished indian population in the americas. Not to mention that north america was never heavily populated to begin with.
There's a reason anglos could turn Canada into a white country but not India.
>>1401123
>Especially in the case of Turkic rulers who literally moved in with their whole fucking nation
Who were 4 or 5 thousands of dudes? Are you aware that pastoralists and nomads cannot support populations comparable in numbers to settled peoples?
>>1401175
Just like how thousands of imported british soldiers and a century of british rule made east indians into whites?
>>1401049
all middle eastern countries that islam spread to are ethnically different and browner then they used to be, especially mediterranean countries. But fedorad euphoric autist neckbeard pseudointellectuals fixate on persians and their whiteness both in the past and the present, because muh indo-european languages.
>>1401223
False comparison. The entire British nation did not move into India.Meanwhile whole Turkic confederacies did to Persia.
>>1401203
Muh PureUnadulterated race is far more autistic. Again, go pretend Arabs, Mongols, Turkics, and Greeks had no impact. Deny, deny, deny. The fucking language uses arabic script. Deny. Whole Klerouchies from overpopulated Greece were relocated by Seleucids. Deny. For quite a long time, Tukic Titles like Begs, Atabegs dotted the aristocracy of Iran, and with them their peoples. Deny. Ignore Genghiz Khans massive movement in the region.Ignore Tamerlane. Persia is pure.
>>1401653
Autism at its finest.
Ottomans used Arabic script too before the Jewish saviour Ataturk came along and changed it to Latin. Pahlavi script wasn't even that far off from Arabic script. The population remains largely the same in every country that was conquered. Claiming otherwise is a pathetic excuse of a meme. All "Turkic" empires were all Persianate anyway. They used Persian language, culture, administrative practices (tax and law) to keep their kingdoms. Even the Arabs placed Iranians after spreading the Caliphate. Then they had the balls and claim they brought on the "Islamic Golden Age"
>>1402243
Although I agree with you to a certain extant your post reeks of butthurt Iranian diaspora.
>>1402269
>Butthurt Zoroastrian white Aryan Iranian diaspora
Ftfy u pleb
>>1401089
>>1402269
This cartoon is always a little cringy to me. Zoroastrianism has roots in Iran dating back thousands of years and it never truly died out. Through out all of Arians history a substantial portion of people numbering in the tens of thousands have practiced Zoroastrianism. It's not like Americans whose only pagan ancestors are hundreds of years old and from a far away place like Sweden.
Persians have been inbreeding with filthy Arabs for nearly 1000 years. It's amazing so many of them are still attractive.
>>1402243
You need an atajew to save your country.
>>1402448
(((You)))
>>1401061
Iranians are legitimately less brown than other Middle Easteners.
>>1401049
Cultural enrichment from Pakis.
>>1401081
I hope you are trolling nigger.
in the Old World genocides were common, and writing about them was also common. When you have somewhat isolated settlements, even if they are dense - and you march large armies into them, especially after bloody conflict, genocide is fairly common. Mass rape, mass looting of all manner of goods - including food - and mass murder. The Greeks and Romans meticulously documented cases, often all sides documented the cases.
A fine example of Old World ethnic replacement is the Turks.
>>1401223
>Just like how thousands of imported british soldiers and a century of british rule made east indians into whites?
It made west indians into whites :^)
>>1401061
>people on this site say everyone is ethnically different than they were centuries ago
And that's literally true.
>>1401049
No, it's all /pol/ trying to rationalize the development of ancient nonwhite societies with a white supremacist worldview
>>1401136
Pandemics of such magnitude can't really happen overland
>>1402563
Not really. Arabs from the upper Levant, Azeris, Armenians, Mizrahi Jews, and Kurds tend to be more European-looking.
>>1401081
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Punic_War
"Many Carthaginians died from starvation during the later part of the siege, while many others died in the final six days of fighting. When the war ended, the remaining 50,000 Carthaginians, a small part of the original pre-war population, were, as was the normal fate in antiquity of inhabitants of sacked cities, sold into slavery by the victors.[4] Carthage was systematically burned for 17 days; the city's walls and buildings were utterly destroyed. The remaining Carthaginian territories were annexed by Rome and reconstituted to become the Roman province of Africa.
That Roman forces then sowed the city with salt to ensure that nothing would grow there again is almost certainly a 19th-century invention.[17] Contemporary accounts show that the land surrounding Carthage was declared ager publicus and that it was shared between local farmers, and Roman and Italian ones. North Africa soon became a vital source of grain for the Romans. Roman Carthage was the main hub transporting these supplies to the capital."
>>1401123
Right, but in an ancient context we're talking about 20,000 Turkic tribesmen imposing themselves over 300,000 locals
The Arab conquests involved even smaller invading parties
>>1402971
Language change is almost never caused by population replacement. Genocide as we know it didn't really happen in ancient times, because states lacked the capacity.
You think the Brits eradicated the Scots and Irish to bring English?
>>1402994
I have argued this so many times, people think that when one nation conquers another they just take all their people and move them over, which almost never happened, most of the times only the political elite, and parts of the military change, the bulk of the populations remains untouched
thats the reason turks look more like greeks and various anatolian peoples, then other turkic nations like the ughyrs
>>1403074
But that's false, Greeks are white while Turks are heavily arabized
>>1402971
>A fine example of Old World ethnic replacement is the Turks.
>eastern turks %99 similar to armenians genetically
>western turks %80-90 similar to greeks genetically
>a fine replacement
They did not replaced anything genetically, average anatolian does not have slanty eyes or mongoloid features.
Turks are turkified hellenes and armos
>>1403088
>t. PavlosGR
>>1403090
yep, didnt Caesar claim he killed two million gauls? exaggerating "glorious" victories is nothing new
>>1403096
No thats modern estimates of how many died just from the overall effects of several legions wrecking the nation
>>1403090
The specific numbers don't matter - what matters is that the Romans killed the majority of the Carthaginians and sold the remainder into slavery. They LITERALLY engaged in total ethnic replacement. It doesn't matter if the Romans slaughtered 2,000,000 Carthaginians or 2,000. What matters is they displaced ALL of them from a settled area. Your assertion here: >>1401081
is demonstrably wrong. The romans (and other ancient peoples) didn't have to kill millions to ethnically displace an entire population because at the time settlements typically weren't that large. Your assertion that
>states lacked the capacity
is likewise proven to be false.
Also, while the the Brits didn't eradicate the Scots, what happened to the Picts? They all died out.
Genocide did happen, ethnic replacement did happen - and commonly - you are just presupposing modern population counts on the ideas. In the ancient world populations were much smaller, but you need to remember - the size of the population does not matter, only that it is completely destroyed and replaced, and that has happened many times.
>>1401081
I hate the fact there are people so dull , who dont even go the extra mile of reading 5 pages of history before saying shit. But lets not forget the purpose of the internet is to give cancer..
>>1402987
>Mizrahi Jews
>More European looking
LEL
>>1401653
The british army stationed in India wasn't probably that smaller than those turkic confederacies.
>>1402444
Pretty sure the original meme parodies a nordic, not an american.
>>1404316
When the Seljuqs invaded Iran, the number as reported by the Seljuq historians was this: "40,000 families."
Note that is family in an Asian sense.
>>1402987
I have kurdish friends and no, they don't at all. They look basically like persians, which means nothing except extremely varied. All my iranians friends except couple are azeri descended and they're all brown as fuck, almost paki tier. It's obviously a coincidence, I also met an azeri truckdriver in my travels and he was a blonde with light eyes.
All in all what I want to prove is that your anecdotical experiences do not define how a people looks.
>>1404332
So, like we were saying, a negligible number.
>>1403089
>>1402997
>>1402971
>>1401653
>>1401121
>plenty of mongol rape babies people still left in Central Asia and the Middle East
the reason why Tocharians vanished:
Mongoloid raids and invasions as some of the deadliest conflicts in human history.
Large areas of Asia were seriously depopulated,[6] as every city, village or town was subject to destruction. Each soldier was required to execute a certain number of persons, with the number varying according to circumstances. For example, after the conquest of Urgench, each Mongol warrior – in an army group that might have consisted of two tumens (units of 10,000) – was required to execute 100 people [7].
Mongoloid invasions induced population extermination on a scale never seen before particularly in Central Asia and eastern Europe.
Mongol conquests anhilated 70,000,000+ 1206–1324 Eurasia
Conquests of Tamerlane anhilated 20,000,000+ 1370–1405 Eurasia
Turko-Mongoloid conquests anhilated 300,000,000+ 200-1920 Eurasia
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm#Mongolic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_and_conquests
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline_of_war
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_under_the_Mongol_Empire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasion_of_Europe
>>1404343
We aren't talking about tunisia - we are talking about the city of Carthage - and the city of Carthage is not even populated anymore - the ethnic Carthaginians were all removed, forcibly. It is a perfect example of ethnic replacement / genocide.
Here is the UN definition of genocide
http://www.un.org/en/preventgenocide/adviser/pdf/osapg_analysis_framework.pdf
Considering that at the time Carthage was a city state centered around the city of Carthage, the destruction of that city was definition genocide and the moving in of various latins was a case of ethnic replacement.
Again, you can't ascribe modern population numbers to the ancient world. 'Tunisia' as we know it didn't exist.
>>1405232
So you just were triggered by someone some anon said for semantic reasons that were not important to the subject of the thread.
>>1404316
The brits used sepoys from the start, same as any other local power.
>>1404375
The Tocharians didn't vanish, they just happened to move to India, Form the Kushan Empire and then intermingle with the locals. A few also stayed at home and mixed with the ancient uyghurs, hence why modern Uyghurs look like a bizarre mix between European and asian traits (They are often blond or red haired.).
There's no genocide bruh, stop memeing.
>>1405244
No, the poster made a false claim proving he had not idea about that portion of history. I was helping him to learn the truth.
>>1405272
>the turks, mongols were good boys they dindu nuffin
history counters your bs
and Kushan was pre-turk, pre-mongol
The Kushans were one of five branches of the Yuezhi confederation,[11][12] a possibly Iranic[13][14] or Tocharian,[15][16][17][18][19][20] Indo-European[19][21][22][23] nomadic people who migrated from the Tarim Basin (modern Xinjiang) and settled in ancient Bactria.[12] The Kushans possibly used the Greek language initially for administrative purposes, but soon began to use Bactrian language.[3]
the tocharians like the rest all got KHAN'd
They were east asian mongoloids invaded the original Indo European people of central asia/west china.
their invasion resulted in the rape and genocide of Indo-European peoples living throughout all of central asia and the middle east. Central Asia is now full of mixed race Elliot Rodgers thanks to them.
>>1406837
The Chanyu (Khan) of the Xiongnu took advantage of the chaos caused by Wang Mang (9-24 CE) and destroyed the Western Regions (Tocharia, Bactria)
after the decimation, invasion, and genocide by the turks, mongols, in 1389−1390 Tamerlane ravaged Kashgar, Andijan and the intervening country, adding to the million victims of turk-mongols
.
>>1405246
One leg up though is that the British continuously imported though. They may have only had a few thousand a time, but that number was replaced every decade or so. Over the course of a 200 year rule.
>>1406863
>>1406837
>conquered, genocided, raped to extinction
there was also a commercial, capitalist element to their extinction
Turpan region had a history of commerce and trade along the Silk Road already centuries old; it had many inns catering to merchants and other travelers, while numerous brothels are recorded in Kucha and Khotan.[8] As a result of the Tang conquest, policies forcing minority group relocation and encouraging Han settlement led to Turpan's name in the Sogdian language becoming known as “Chinatown” or "Town of the Chinese".[7][9]
In Astana, a contract written in Sogdian detailing the sale of a Sogdian girl to a Chinese man was discovered dated to 639 AD. Individual slaves were common among silk route houses; early documents recorded an increase in the selling of slaves in Turpan.[10] Twenty-one 7th-century marriage contracts were found that showed, where one Sogdian spouse was present, for 18 of them their partner was a Sogdian. The only Sogdian men who married Chinese women were highly eminent officials.[11] Several commercial interactions were recorded, for example a camel was sold priced at 14 silk bolts in 673,[12][13] and a Chang'an native bought a girl age 11 for 40 silk bolts in 731 from a Sogdian merchant.[14] Five men swore that the girl was never free before enslavement, since the Tang Code forbade commoners to be sold as slaves.[7]
There were eras in Xinjiang's history where interracial sex was common, "laxity" which set upon red-haired Uyghur women led them to be mounted by Chinese men.
Intermarriage and patronage of prostitutes were among the forms of interaction between the red-hairs in Xinjiang and visiting Chinese merchants.[161]
>>1407551
Almost every Chinaman in Yarkand, soldier or civilian, takes unto himself a temporary red-haired wife, dispensing entirely with the services of the clergy, as being superfluous, and most of the high officials also give way to the same amiable weakness, their mistresses being in almost all cases natives of Khotan, which city enjoys the unenviable distinction of supplying every large city in Turkestan with courtesans.
In Kashgar in 1933 the Chinese kept concubines and spouses who were Turkic women.[184]
>>1401049
what do you mean by "ethnically"?
if you mean genetically then no, there wasn't a lot of admixture
if you mean culturally then yes, persian culture changed significantly over the centuries, as does any culture. the most significant change was probably conversion to islam after the islamic conquest, which shapes persian culture until today though this was actually more than just a few centuries ago
>>1407553
>>1407551
>>1406837
yes there was a very long struggle and the Xiongnu were just one of many turko-mongols to expand and conquer Tocharians/Sogdians
but the Tang campaigns marked the end of Indo-European Xinjiang,[10][23] as Turkic linguistic and cultural influences spread into Central Asia. Tang China was responsible for the influx of Turkic migrants, because of the number of Turks that served in the Tang military as soldiers and generals during the dynasty's military expeditions.[24]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_campaigns_against_the_Western_Turks#cite_note-FOOTNOTEWechsler1979228-10
