John 20:23 says that those sins which are not forgiven (or remitted, or loosed, however you translate the word) by the Apostolic office, will not be forgiven in heaven. This ties in with Matthew 18:18, where Christ tells the Apostles anything they loose (or forgive, two translation of the same word) will be loosed in heaven, and that which they don't will be bound.
Since Christ makes it explicitly clear that if you do not gain forgiveness through the Apostolic office, how do Protestants justify saying you don't need to seek forgiveness through this office?
This isn't saying the Apostolic office has the right to judge, but it is saying they have the duty to forgive; yet they cannot forgive if you do not tell them the sins that you desire forgiveness for.
Predestination. They literally don't give a fuck.
>>1389604
Predestination is more of a Calvinist thing though, isn't it?
>>1389609
Total predestination. But even Luther adhered to predestined salvation, he just through everything else was up to us, but whatever we did had no effect on our salvation.
So what about sins you've forgotten about? What about sins you weren't aware you committed?
>>1389787
The priest absolves you of those as well when you go to Confession on the condition you are ignorant or forgotten them as opposed to intentionally omitted them.
>>1389787
"And for all the sins I have forgotten, I confess those as well."
>>1389804
Because it is you asking for forgiveness for those sins.
>>1389811
Well then why do you need to ask a priest? Is not god omnipresent? Does that mean there are countless poor bastards in hell because they died before they could confess?
>>1389822
Because Christ appointed the Apostles to act on his behalf. These priests can prescribe things like penance and counselling for sinners in need, Confession in Orthodoxy is much more involved than in Catholicism, we don't just say, "Take two Hail Marys and call me in the morning."
>Does that mean there are countless poor bastards in hell because they died before they could confess?
We don't claim to know who is in hell.
>>1389597
Constantine, we all know it's you. You may as well put your trip on, you cock juggling thunder cunt.
>>1389845
>We don't claim to know who is in hell.
Well that's a cop-out. You claim to know how people can be saved from hell, and what people ought not do to avoid going to hell.
>>1389858
don't succumb to the bullies
>>1389858
>I was under the impression that my trip put people off?
It also provides people a means to filter you.
Frankly I'd say with your level of prolificness and ideological drive, it would be most polite to wear the trip.
>>1389863
Why would you even post in this thread if you wanted to filter it?
>>1389858
Not when you're this bad at being an anon.
The idea behind anonymity, at least in the ideal, is that you can judge an idea for its own sake, not because it's attached to a name. ANY poster who is too obvious about an identity, be it you, that proddie shitposter from /pol/ , that Jewish grammar guy, ape of Thoth, etc, you're all the same. With or without a code, you guys write in a way that makes it clear who you are.
We don't do that here. If you want that kind of experience, go to a more classic forum. As it is, trip or no doesn't matter in your case. It's easy enough to tell who you are.
>>1389870
I don't actually. I'm also not the guy who suggested initially he put the trip back on. Personally it's of no concern to me because I don't like filtering people.
>>1389873
That's not really my problem, I'm not going to try to alter my writing style to blend in, especially when it isn't that peculiar to begin with
>>1389597
Here we go with the "lets take words and put them into the bible" thing again.
You stupid Catholics. I swear. Its like anytime there was a passage that a priest wrongfully, and intentionally, read you guys wrote it down and made it into a new bible. He said confessing before man was good, but he never said if we don't confess them to the Cleric, we'll go to hell. And he said "What you loose on Earth will be loosed in Heaven, and what you bound on Earth will also be bound in Heaven." Not "and that which they dont will be bound".
You're literally putting a new meaning to the words o Christ. He was meaning for signs and miracles, not to make it to get into Heaven. Faggot.
>>1390073
He says in John 20:23 that if they don't forgive a sin, it will not be forgiven.
Because of the priesthood of all believers and the mediatorial office of Christ, we can confess our sins whenever we wish, and God is not slow to forgive.
However, the forgiveness of sins mentioned in this passage is the function of the ministry of the Word. Whenever the Word is ministered by one lawfully ordained, there is real forgiveness of sins. This is why, in Protestant churches, both Lutheran and Reformed, we have confession of sin, both privately, as well as in our corporate liturgy. We are presented with God's law, find ourselves wanting and confess our sins, and the minister in the name of Christ forgives us our sins.
>>1389604
>>1389609
>>1389640
Both Lutheranism and Calvinism are predestinarian. And no, predestination is NOT why they do not view Confession/Penance as a sacrament.
>>1390229
Every believer is a hierus, not every believer is a presbyter or episkopos.
>>1390261
And no one is claiming otherwise.
>>1390271
The English word "priest" is simply an Anglization of "presbyteros", and this office is not universal, no. This is the office the Apostles had, which was administrating the Church. It is wrong to say any sin *you* do not forgive will not be forgiven in heaven, but it is right to say any sin the Apostolic office doesn't forgive will not be forgiven in heaven.
>>1390190
No, he said to them a verse before that, after breathing on them "Let the holy Spirit come onto you" and then in verse 23 he said "and to whom you give forgiveness, will be made free of their sins, and to whom you withhold forgiveness, will still be in their sins"
What he's saying is, if you don't forgive someone for their transgressions, they will still be considered by God as not forgiven by YOU. Jesus already came and whipped their sin away in Gods eyes, but YOU have chosen to judge them and withhold mercy from your own hands. Again, you're taking words pit of someone's mouth, and putting new meaning to them.
>>1390278
>No, he said to them a verse before that, after breathing on them "Let the holy Spirit come onto you"
This is them being ordained
>if you don't forgive someone for their transgressions, they will still be considered by God as not forgiven by YOU
No, that exegesis doesn't line up with Matthew 18:18 (don't forget "loose" and "forgiven" are two translations of the same word).
>>1390274
Again, you're arguing with someone who does not deny the particular office of presbyter (for which the English word is in fact "elder.")
>>1390289
We still refer to them as "presbyter" in English Liturgy in worship. "Priest" is the more actually title ("Presbyter in Greek is pronounced PRE).
Originally it was the same office as "episkopos" (Anglicized as "bishop'), literally "overseer". Every area had one who was in charge of all Christians in the area. But they became separate offices over time, because originally there was only one perish were dioceses (the area an episkopos administrates), but when Christainity exploded in numbers, you started to have several parishes in each diocese, and the administator of the area couldn't tend to them all, so representatives of him were appointed to minister to the multiple parishes in his jurisdiction. The originally offices eventually became just "episkopos", and the representative one "presbyter".
>>1390296
"Priest" is actually the more *casual title
>>1390296
one parish *per diocese
>>1389597
>by the Apostolic office
Toplyl.
It doesn't say that at all. It says that the disciples have the power of absolution, it doesn't say that a Church 2000 years later does.
>>1390315
The Apostles are being given an office right here that they did not have before, an office that they pass on. For instance, in Acts 1:20, they speak of appointing a replacement Apostle (for the missing Judas) as appointing a replacement bishop.
