this is probably the most active christian debater of our time
i often hear people accusing him of sophistry and of the usage of "tricks"
even as an atheist i have the impression that this guy honestly tries to argue for gods existence from the standpoint of philosophy even if i think hes wrong
could someome come up with an example of him being intentionally dishonest or using other dishonest tricks to sound persuasive ?
you can also bring up general dishonest tricks that other apologists might use to convince people
>>1384034
No, because he doesn't need to. The position that there is no God is inherently indefensible.
>>1384034
Example of cognitive dissonance:
>1) Objective morality exists (some things are just *wrong*). This proves God's existence.
>2) God can kill children in the OT because morality can change on God's whim.
His ideology is Divine Command theory to explain Biblical atrocity, but he still argues that morality has an objective purpose whenever he tries to argue for God's existence in stand alone.
>>1384034
He says you can't bring up the OT when arguing for the existence of God, but he does use the possibility of Jesus's resurrection to argue for God's existence. If you bring up how blatantly incorrect the OT is, the NT fails by default, so it doesn't matter how believable the resurrection story is on its own, if you can prove the set-up was a fable.
>>1384067
please elaborate on that
>>1384078
God ordering children killed in the OT is not wrong. It's God's judgment against the worst and most evil people on planet earth. People who had 400 years to repent, and never did.
Those children were gathered up by a loving God and are housed eternally in heaven, while you, with all your sophistry, are electing to be put on fire forever, in the dark, alone.
>>1384110
To make such a statement with any sort of authority means the speaker must have infinite knowledge.
For a person with infinite knowledge to tell me that no being exists with infinite knowledge is self-refuting.
>>1384114
>Those children were gathered up by a loving God and are housed eternally in heaven
Says who?
>>1384131
Says God.
Suffer not the little children to come unto me, for of such is the Kingdom of Heaven.
--Jesus of Nazareth
>>1384114
>Those children were gathered up by a loving God and are housed eternally in heaven
Huh, didn't realize that was in the Bible. Or is it more of your fanfiction-tier bullshit you made up to defend a defenseless point?
>>1384116
>To make such a statement with any sort of authority means the speaker must have infinite knowledge.
Why?
>>1384114
>People who had 400 years to repent, and never did.
And God had 400 years to save those people too. And he did nothing; he allowed indescribable pain to occur and he watched in indifference until 400 years later, and killing their descendents did a fat lot of good, not to mention hell doesn't even exist in the OT. If he had power to stop it, and did nothing, with absolutely no threat to himself. he is equally as guilty as whatever those cities did. Incidentally, I'd say killing everyone except the virgin women doesn't so much strike me as divine judgement, just a rape fest. Not to mention that God forgave the self-decribed worst man in the world, by the name of Saul, without any punishment. Mysterious ways, huh?
If you argue that killing children is alright because you thought God told you to do it, then what is there left that you wouldn't do? 9/11 is only wrong in your view because the wrong God was prayed to.
And here is the central flaw again. You go from arguing that Divine Command theory is justified to try and rationalise the atrocity, as if you feel the first option isn't strong enough. If baby killing is okay because "they go to heaven" then you are arguing that abortion is a great moral good, and if the greates duty to save souls, it is the duty of Christians to murder non-believers children to save them.
I was Christian once. I housed myself away from any competing evidence, until my terror of death was overridden by the fear of a tyrannical God who would mercilessly torture you forever for his own mistakes. I regret every second I listened to people like Craig.
>>1384116
are you being serious ?
>>1384148
It's clear when King David said he would die and meet his child in heaven; it is clear when Paul said he was blameless before the Law came, and it is clear from what Jesus said about having to enter the Kingdom as a child.
I have a feeling that most people in heaven do not have much life experience here on earth.
>>1384138
If Children aren't spared from earthy death why are they spared from eternal death?
>>1384153
Because you would have to know everything in order to declare that there is no God.
Otherwise you're just guessing.
>>1384156
God kept His people in captivity, and wandering in the wilderness, in order to let the judgment against those vile people come to fruition.
It's a pity Joshua did not follow God's instructions, for if he did, there would be no ISIS, no PLO, no Hamas, and no Hezbollah today.
I know you're an evil person, but even in your evil thinking killing the men and women and leaving the children to slowly starve is not a kindness.
>>1384116
also "authority" does not exist in any intellectual discourse
of course we cant disprove the existence of god with a 100% certainty but that does not rule out the possibility of arguments that show it to be plausible or nonplausible to a certain extent
>>1384156
>I was Christian once.
No, no you were not, a point I had to make painfully clear to you the last time you posted this nonsense.
Am I the only person who remembers what they read?
>>1384163
>meet his child in heaven
Nothing to do with God killing kids
>blameless before the Law came
So why were people that weren't under God's law killed if Paul was blameless? Why didn't God smite Paul for persecuting Christians?
>enter the kingdom as a child
With childlike faith. As in being receptive to all of it. Not as in being a literal child.
Why would you believe something that requires so much mental gymnastics?
>>1384162
How is that not obvious?
God is in your heart. When you consider God as the source, and you see all things come from God, all substances matter and energy are eternally linked because they stem from the same source.
>>1384165
Because the Law holds them blameless.
>>1384173
Then substitute "accuracy".
>>1384171
>It's a pity Joshua did not follow God's instructions
God's servants can deviate from his plans?
>>1384165
Only the good die young.
>>1384182
Why? Aren't all humans born wicked?
>>1384176
David's child died, and David stopped mourning. When asked why, David said there's nothing he can do to bring his son back, but he will go to his son when he dies. In heaven.
Paul was blameless as a child, as was everyone. Then everyone hits their own age of accountability, and a decision must be made. For Jesus, or Against Jesus.
Jesus gathered literal children to Himself and said "of such is the Kingdom of Heaven".
You're free to think God does not know what He's talking about, just as you're free to be a fool and pass up His plan of salvation.
>>1384187
Yes, but not without consequences. The only person to walk in God's will perfectly was Jesus. With everyone else, there were consequences.
>>1384171
It's a pity Titus and his legions weren't more thorough, for if he was, there would be no Zionism and no Communism today.
>>1384201
You can't logically disobey an omnipotent and omniscient God. That doesn't make any sense.
>>1384166
And you'd have to do the same to declare that there is one.....
Your argument is weak.
>>1384190
All humans are born dead, not wicked. We're all born with a fallen nature, a nature lacking the presence of the Holy Spirit of God.
I'm having a difficult time believing people think God will throw innocent children into hellfire. I guess that just comes from not knowing God at all.
He's not dishonest, but when he gets into areas he has no expertise in (like physics), he often doesn't know what he's talking about.
>>1384174
>Only a true scotsman.
>>1384203
The existence of the Jews is proof of God; I know Jews think they have something to do with their continued existence, but it's God preserving them so that He can keep His promises to Abraham.
So no, no Titus, no Hitler, no Haman could ever have killed all the Jews.
>>1384204
All humans are born spiritually dead, and have a fallen sin nature.
The Law does not hold people accountable before they are accountable.
>>1384209
But He's ok with innocent children being slaughtered in the Bible?
>>1384205
You have to grasp that God gave us the sovereignty over ourselves to do just that, in order to make us true free will moral agents.
God is not a slave to His own attributes; that He can do everything does not mean that He has to do everything.
>>1384166
come on you could dismiss anything in any scientific discipline by repeating that epistemological fundamentalist slogan " you cant know nuffin"
>>1384208
God revealed Himself.
It's not a matter of debate anymore, but of belief.
>>1384211
No caterpillar used to be a butterfly.
>>1384225
Free will is not in the Bible.
>>1384222
Define "okay".
Because this is the being Who made an eternally burning Lake of Fire.
>>1384225
You can't have free will when you're punished for exercising it eternally....
Not to mention that violates Omnipotence and Omniscience
>>1384230
Yes, and Socrates did.
>>1384216
The Jews of today have no more resemblance to the ancient Hebrews than modern Germans do to the people the Romans fought.
>>1384234
God says "choose".
>>1384171
>If you don't want to murder children you are evil
Toppest of lels.
"It's a pity Joshua did not follow God's instructions, for if he did, there would be no ISIS, no PLO, no Hamas, and no Hezbollah today."
If God had not been a psychopath or completely indifferent, we wouldn't have any suffering whatsoever today.
>I know you're an evil person, but even in your evil thinking killing the men and women and leaving the children to slowly starve is not a kindness.
Here's an incredible idea: God clicks his fingers and none of the atrocities committed by these cities ever happens. God shows up, tells them who he is, rather than the luck of a screaming prophet who or may not be believed, or maybe he just gives out a lot of food and supplies to Israelites to ensure they can successfully accommodate these children if for some bizarre reason they absolutely positively have to have a universe where these atrocities were committed and people had to be punished. Christians always seem to forget that God is God, and there is literally no such thing as a dilemma, given his sovereignty over everything.
>>1384174
When I was 12, I was suffering loneliness and depression. Despite being Catholic, I found a few videos online by evangelical Protestants espousing Creationism, and Biblical Fundamentalism. I became a fundamentalist, and shoved away all ideology that disagreed with the Bible. I rationalised the suffering of the world with "You wouldn't hold the mayor responsible for every crime in the city?" Eventually, I cooled, but when my Depression ached again, I went back to it. This time however, I had been exposed to Christian Universalists, whose condemnation of eternal damnation was so strong that I couldn't ignore it. I was so confused that I couldn't square how God would allow his church to believe that about him, if the Universalists were right, or that God could be so evil, if they weren't. Finally, I broke, read atheist material, and here I am.
>>1384232
Caterpillars ARE butterflies. Or Moths.
>>1384239
You can have free will to choose from among your available options; you do not have free will to escape the consequences of your choices.
>>1384242
They're still pretty well inbred.
>>1384246
You can blame God for the evil that men and demons created; I'm not so foolish.
>>1384185
"accuracy" does not mean rocksolid 100% everytime what would be a better translation of your argument
>>1384255
Demons can't create shit.
>>1384255
Why can't he be blamed when he, despite being omnipotent, allowed them to create that evil?
>>1384246
>Finally, I broke, read atheist material, and here I am.
Thanks for proving me right, I guess. I'd rather had you break and appeal to the Lord directly, so that you could become one of His, and know the peace that passes all understanding.
>>1384249
Kek
>>1384220
Then making people accountable by spreading the faith is literally the worst thing you can possibly do to them. Better if Jesus had died anonymously in the desert than to spread his filthy idea of inherent sickness and eternal punishment for finite crimes.
>>1384248
Not so much, no. If you eat a caterpillar, you have not eaten a butterfly.
Caterpillars die and are transformed into butterflies.
Human beings die and are transformed into new creations in Christ Jesus.
Both are permanent transformations, not philosophies or belief systems.
>>1384269
>Caterpillars die and are transformed into butterflies.
I don't think that's how it works.
>>1384260
They can create lies, and do. They can create evil, and do. They can create havoc, and do. They can create death, and do.
>>1384247
So would this be true? Are we really in this unclean horror scenario? Normally if it is, it gets a special treatment.
>>1384261
Are you to blame for the acts of others that you could have prevented?
>>1384269
>Caterpillars die and are transformed into butterflies.
>>1384262
I prayed every night for a year. I pleaded with God to let me know what was going on. I sincerely believed in him, and I didn't want a universe where he didn't exist. I lambasted others for not believing in him. I controlled my thoughts as best I could. And yet, in all that time, I never felt any connection to anything. I never felt divine knowledge or wisdom, or caring.
I didn't break and say "that's it! No God! I simply broke my aversion to reading atheist material. Once I did, I realised just how much stuff I didn't even know about (the massive historical errors of the NT, the flaws in Biblical science being even worse than I thought, the moral implications I hadn't considered.)
>>1384255
God made those demons. He had full knowledge of what they would do,and he made them anyway. He is equally as culpable as those demons, and if those demons do evil in their nature, he is the only one who is responsible.
>>1384267
Yeah, great plan. Have people born dead, stay dead, and suffer the second death, which is eternal torment in a lake of fire.
Don't tell them that Jesus paid for a way out for them; let them burn.
That's a great plan you have there, Anon.
>>1384282
If I could stop a horrible act without any danger, cost, or even slight inconvenience to myself and chose not to, I'd say I hold some blame in that situation.
>>1384274
It is, actually.
>>1384286
He didn't have to create the lake of fire in the first place. He could have just fixed everything with a thought.
>>1384262
Not the guy you're replying to, but I was a Christian for years and years, studied apologetics, prayed nightly, read the Bible, and studied Christianity deeply.
I cannot justify it no matter how hard I try.
>>1384284
This is like 8th grade science level info. Are you old enough to post on 4chan?
Any links to good debates?
>>1384294
But it isn't compelling enough to get someone to obey you unless you threaten them with eternal agony and punishment
>>1384295
I'm not even a Christian but I can justify it pretty easy. If Yahweh isn't omnipotent, then yeah, he's just a murdering psychopath (though to be fair by the standards of the Bronze age killing children isn't really beyond the pale), but if he is, then he by definition has the power to define good and evil. Therefore, if he wants to define killing children as good, it's good.
>>1384285
Well, I'm sorry nobody told you how to get in touch with God.
1. Confess with your tongue that Jesus is Lord; and
2. Believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead.
So, now you know. You can read about it in Romans 10:9-11.
Don't think you can do it, or assume you did it; actually do it.
It's the actually doing it part that matters.
>>1384297
You need to step your trolling game up son.
>>1384288
Let's say that you spend your life on death row and are executed for that person's crime.
Would that be taking responsibility?
>>1384294
That's not how reality works. In reality, when you create eternal angelic beings, and need to confine 1/3 of them, you need a Lake of Fire.
>>1384295
It doesn't need to be justified.
Jesus really is God.
God really did raise Jesus from the dead.
That's Christianity.
>>1384308
No, I don't. You need to google "do caterpillars die when they turn into butterflies" and read for like 20 seconds.
>>1384309
Yeah except I don't get to come back after three days and resume my post as all-powerful lord of creation.
I never understood Jesus sacrifice. Logically, if he's going to take people's punishment for them, shouldn't he have to burn in hell for all eternity?
And we're not talking about Jesus' sacrifice anyway, we're talking about God allowing evil to exist in the first place.
>>1384313
Those two claims require proof. Visions are not proof. Faith is not proof.
Gods cannot be proven nor disproven. If I had proof, I would return to the faith in a second. God has the power to provide proof, so what's with the cryptic nature. Why isn't proof available?
>>1384315
Well, that's because you're not God, right?
See, Jesus could lay down His life and pick it back up again because He's God. That's the difference between you and Him.
Another difference is that He actually did pay the penalty for your crimes against God, suffered the wrath of God, and died for them so you wouldn't have to.
Another difference between you and God is that God gets to define what is real and what is not, and having a universe full of free will moral agents sovereign over their own choices, with love as the ideal, cannot happen if evil is not a possible outcome.
>>1384322
They're not claims. They're the way things are. And faith is the human ability to believe without seeing; and Jesus said blessed are they who believe without seeing.
>>1384306
How fucking stupid do you think I am? I read that shit for years, from every Evangelical site I could find. I did it endlessly. I never stopped. I really did confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, and I offered my life to him. I thought he was the greatest being in all history. I prayed to reject all thoughts that contradicted this. I don't care what you think I believed; I believed it. I read the entirety of the NT in the ride to school over the course of the year with my Gideon Bible.
I didn't leave because of selfishness; I left because the thought of my family that had died being mercilessly tortured for being Catholic, a favourite trope of the Evangelicals I read, was so indescribably painful. If the most loving being in the universe could apparently be in charge of this, then I was more loving than him. In that realisation, I knew I could never believe the fully Gospel again, but I accepted it for years.
>>1384326
Do it now.
Say out loud that Jesus is Lord, believing in your heart God raised Him from the dead.
>>1384323
>Another difference is that He actually did pay the penalty for your crimes against God, suffered the wrath of God, and died for them so you wouldn't have to.
If the penalty for my crimes is eternal torment, and Jesus wasn't subject to eternal torment, then he did not pay the penalty for my crimes, by definition.
>Another difference between you and God is that God gets to define what is real and what is not, and having a universe full of free will moral agents sovereign over their own choices, with love as the ideal, cannot happen if evil is not a possible outcome.
First of all, free will isn't even in the Bible. And in God's omnipotence, he could have somehow found a way to preserve free will without the consequence of evil.
>>1384285
>I prayed every night for a year. I pleaded with God to let me know what was going on. I sincerely believed in him, and I didn't want a universe where he didn't exist. I lambasted others for not believing in him. I controlled my thoughts as best I could. And yet, in all that time, I never felt any connection to anything. I never felt divine knowledge or wisdom, or caring.
This is not the way to this connection. And it is. There is no official statement by churches how to act, which will lead to typical divine knowledge. there absolutely IS this space to say you did the above but didn't. Double cross this sort of matters and book your place in hell.
>>1384328
How do you make yourself believe something?
>>1384325
>They're the way things are
You haven't backed up your claim yet.
That's like saying the Bible is proof of God, and proof the Bible's truthfulness is found in the Bible.
>>1384331
>there absolutely IS this space to say you did the above but didn't.
I mean look at questionable churches and mistakes of other ones.
>>1384328
I can't believe something on command when all the evidence says it's untrue, but when I didn't have the evidence that contradicted it, and I sincerely believed every word, it did absolutely nothing to remove that fear for my family.
>>1384329
No, it was death. The eternal torment is the consequences of being born dead, staying dead, and suffering the second death (due to your unbelief).
>>1384332
In this unique case, it requires God's assistance.
The Holy Spirit is near any person who wants to say that Jesus is Lord out loud, and the Holy Spirit is near a person's heart to believe that God raised Him from the dead.
Without the Holy Spirit's assistance, nobody could be saved.
>>1384326
>Those Jack Chick comics where the Vatican had a computer base in the basement detailing every Protestant in the world so they could kill them when they took over.
>>1384334
You're mistaking my claims for me telling you what God revealed to mankind.
They're not my claims.
They predate me by millennia. I have just benefited from knowing them, and recommend them to everybody.
>>1384337
Friend, if you did not say it earlier, and cannot say it now, you were never saved.
You are dancing on the edge of the supernatural.
To me, as a saved person with the Holy Spirit living in me, to declare out loud that Jesus is Lord knowing in my heart God raised Him from the dead is trivial. But it required God's assistance to get me here.
>>1384358
Do you really think ALL the millions of Christians who struggle with their faith, and the atheists who would gladly return to the fold if they had even a shred of proof, all secretly just don't want to be Christian? How utterly disconnected are you from reality? I know what I wanted to believe. Leaving Christianity was one of the most painful things I ever did, and I still haven't recovered in some ways, but with all the utter indifference coming from heaven each time I pleaded for insight, there was no other way.
>>1384361
I'm sure such a computer base exists, and I'm sure my name's in it.
The Jesuits are an order of assassins, and they've been killing Christians for centuries.
>>1384363
>God revealed to mankind
Through visions. Visions are not proof of anything.
If they are, then convince me as to why I shouldn't convert to Islam. In defense of Islam, the Quran has largely remained unchanged unlike the Bible.
>>1384376
I don't know what to tell you, but that you were never a Christian.
I understand you made several efforts and attempts and maybe even pretended to be a Christian at some point in your life, but it never took root and when the storms came, they blew the seeds of the gospel out of your hands.
Come to Jesus. Please. Pretty please. With a cherry on top.
>>1384236
Why'd he go and do that, by the way?
>he didn't do it, you did it to yourself!
Before you go and make any variation of the above greentext, it really doesn't seem like something a god worth worshiping would allow existing, no matter whose fault it was.
>>1384380
There are more ways God revealed Himself than visions; in fact, the heavens declare His glory every day and night, and the earth shows His handiwork so that a man stands before God without excuse.
It's not good to stand before God without excuse. Condemned already by unbelief. Facing eternal torment.
Don't do it.
>>1384369
I DID SAY IT EARLIER.
THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT.
I would literally have taken a bullet if someone asked me to deny God. I mentally prepared myself for the events of Revelations. I've sincerely believed a lot of things in my life, some without question, and for a long time, Christ was one of them. I didn't leave because of atheist pressure; I swore to myself that I would rather die than be an atheist. I left because of the utter loneliness I felt whenever I humbled myself, calling myself utterly worthless, a sinner, etc, and got nothing back to my pleas for help.
>>1384389
1/3 of the heavenly hosts, maybe billions, of angels rebelled against Him, and He made the Lake of Fire as a containment vessel in which to place them for eternity. They're very powerful, and they cannot get out.
It will hold humans easily. Humans who are partners with those demons in a rebellion against God.
>>1384388
>you're not a REAL christian like me
it's just embarrassing when you animals start squealing this tripe
>>1384394
I know you think you did, because I already addressed that above.
And if you had done so earlier, you could do so now, yet you find that you cannot.
You cannot because I'm asking you to do something supernatural, and the devil is telling you that you already did, and so don't have to do it again, especially to prove something to some Anon.
Your mind is open to your enemy, and not all your thoughts are your own.
>>1384400
It wouldn't be necessary if there weren't a lot of fake christians.
>>1384388
I don't know how honestly brainwashed you are if you think that everyone who left Christianity was never really a Christian, but I was that brainwashed once too.
I left before I even looked at the evidence, because I knew no loving God could ever design so horrible a world, and when I read about the Bible's massive errors, I sure as hell am never going back there.
>>1384397
Sincere question, how do you know that God is telling all of the truth in the Bible?
>>1384407
Yes, your testimony that you were never saved, and are still not saved, is duly noted for the record.
>>1384411
I don't. I wouldn't make that claim. I would only make the claim that everything the bible touches on and speaks to is true. There are things that are true that may not be in the bible.
I say may not because the bible appears to be heavily encoded.
I found the real prophets. And I'm sincere. They can look at someone and say what is going on in their life and how they should be warned.
They can say: ''''In the name of Jesus Christ'''' and in some cases people heal of all sorts of things great and small. I say ''''some''''. This could be a longer story.
Or they have other things in them that prove the supernatural and are just a foundation of the fact that God exists.
I don't see others wouldn't get to know about this in the same way?
So all the mistakes that exist now can be solved. Important is that there are people who can simply consult God if asked and supply all the extra answers for it. It is a closed system. As long as this is not the case, most of them receive individuals for this sort of things for individual things.
>>1384166
You don't have to know everything to say "I am not aware of any evidence that god exists, can you present me with some?"
>>1384397
Or he could just have made them not rebel, since god has no pact of free will with the angels.
Why does a containment vessel have to be made of fire, by the way?
>he didn't make it fire, you did!
Need I remind you of the above.
>>1384417
Matthew 7
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
>>1384424
Sure. The universe is evidence that God, Who made the universe, exists.
>>1384425
You keep thinking Love and coercion can co-exist.
I don't know that it's made of fire, only that it's a lake of fire. I suspect it will be pinched off in its own dimension, and forgotten.
>>1384405
Yes, I cannot believe stuff I know is untrue, as the massive historical errors in the Bible atttest.
And God made the devil with full knowledge of what he would do. So don't give me that bullshit about how God's working in my interest, because under your absurd worldview, he isn't. Unless you call reason and intelligence "the devil."
Actually no, I was blindly believing whatever the Bible told me; 6 days, flood, all that shit. I then looked at reality a little bit, and it didn't match up. I was brought into the church through fear and indoctrination, I left because of reason, and deliberation. I'll never go back down that road, and all your sadistic threats can't stop me from using my brain.
>>1384392
You still haven't proven anything.
>everything's existence proves God's existence
In what way? Because you say so? Because God says so?
You are not convincing me at all, I hope you understand that.
>>1384416
He asked you to be sincere, so why are you choosing to be knowingly deceptive with honestly what everyone else here would consider stereo typically Jewish semantics.
The anon was clearly asking "how do you know anything in the bible is true?"
>>1384430
How is that evidence? What if another god created it? What if the universe always existed in one way or another, just like how God always existed?
>>1384448
I didn't necessarily mean that. I meant more, assuming some supernatural power really did write the Bible, how do we know he's telling the truth about his omnipotence, love, benevolence, etc.
Isn't it a bit like trusting official government publications to tell you the truth about that government?
>>1384434
>You keep thinking Love and coercion can co-exist.
Did you forget the part where god can make anything co-exist as he is all powerful, and logic bends to his will?
God could make love equal cakefarts if he wished it.
Why are you seemingly incapable of being genuine in even one post? Why are you always being evasive? It honestly just makes you seem doubtful and hesitant over your own faith, almost you like you have no faith.
>>1384156
>hell doesn't even exist in the OT
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. -Daniel 12:2
>>1384434
>You keep thinking Love and coercion can co-exist.
If I see my kid wandering off onto the road, I stop him. If I see my friend doing drugs, I stop him. These are pretty normal concepts that are based in love.
>>1384456
>I didn't necessarily mean that.
Of course, you've been lying this entire thread.
You're a more powerful tool against faith than any non believer.
>>1384473
I think you're confused.
I'm not that guy, or a Christian.
>>1384471
No, love is sending them to a literal, non-figurative, eternity of unspeakable, unimaginable torture and agony.
This discussion has turned into shit, abandon thread.
>pic related
>>1384435
>as the massive historical errors in the Bible atttest.
These are figments of your imagination; they don't exist.
>>1384437
You keep thinking I have to prove something to you.
>>1384448
That wasn't the question. I know my given name at birth; I know what my name is; I was truly named as I was. That information is not in the bible, to the best of my knowledge. If it is, it's heavily encoded and I have not been able to find it.
I know everything in the bible is true because I know that the men who wrote the bible were filled with the Holy Spirit, inspired by the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit Himself maintains what was written so that some might be saved.
>>1384450
Then there would be a god, wouldn't there.
>>1384486
You've certainly been adamant about proving your total impotence to defend your delusions.
That must be such a frustrating way to end a thread, for you.
>>1384456
Let me take you down the other road.
Let's say the real God is worse than any Cthonic nightmare.
What are you going to do about it?
>>1384462
How can I forget something you made up in your imagination?
Why are you so unwilling to deal with reality?
>>1384485
Apart from: the entire Creation story, people living to 900 years, the Global flood, the dispersion of fauna after the flood, all languages emerging in one place, the age of the earth, the Exodus, the wandering through the desert (Which not even Israeli archaeologists agree with anymore), the fall of Jericho, the supposed Census of the NT, the massacre of Innocents, and the character of Pontius Pilate
Apart from that, of course, 100% accuracy historically, but then there's the whole science accuracy...
>>1384497
And his name is Allah.
>>1384505
Naw naw, don't start getting fake will ya
>>1384486
I would hope that you were trying to lead me back to Christianity. Shouldn't you do that? Shouldn't you be enthusiastic about leading others to God?
You don't seem to get that I want to believe again. I would love to believe again like I used to. I live in a community of people that would reject me if I outwardly rejected Christianity. I want to be accepted without having to hide anything. You haven't even remotely helped.
>>1384497
I'm not arguing against the existence of deities. I'm not an Atheist or a Christian, if I had to call myself anything it'd be agnostic. Both atheism and any religion require positive claims of either the definite existence or non-existence of gods.
>>1384471
God does the same for His children, and more.
But God is never going to force you to love Him; if you choose to have nothing to do with Him, He's prepared a place for you to do just that. And if you choose to be adopted into His family, He's prepared a place for you to do just that, as well.
>>1384506
Ah, a fellow atheist, a tip for you, my sir.
>>1384500
And you keep thinking you're in a math class that provides proofs to lazy thinkers.
>>1384507
Those are all true, and all as the bible depicts them.
Most of them are even demonstrated to be true, if you bothered to study the issues.
>>1384509
Ba'al is not, and never will be, God.
>>1384507
>and the character of Pontius Pilate
Are you saying that Pilate wasn't real or that he's portrayed inaccurately in the NT? Because if it's the latter that's defensible but the former is demonstrably wrong.
>>1384516
Here's what I ask of God: that he show he exists without any shadow of a doubt, who he is, thus saving billions of people by default who guessed incorrectly. Boom, Satan can't pull anymore tricks, everyone knows he exists. Why can't he do that, and save Billions?
>>1384514
Just as God will not impose His sovereign will upon your sovereign will, neither will He allow me to impose my sovereign will upon yours.
It's up to you to believe whatever you want to believe, and don't kid yourself. You believe what you want to believe.
>>1384529
You've asked an excellent question.
God has the capacity to provide overwhelming evidence of His existence to all of His creation whenever He chooses to do so.
Have you asked the better question, though?
Why has He not done so?
>>1384530
Then for now I guess I'm a lost cause. I cannot force myself to believe it.
I can't believe any of your arguments but in all sincerity thanks for trying.
>>1384525
No, they aren't. There was no flood c.2400 BC. That's indefensible without a hilariously desperate reconstruction of all known chronology. The idea that all languages emerged from one is controversial at best. The idea that they all emerged from one as little as 4000 years ago is wrong.
>>1384539
I would suggest you demand God proves Himself to you, and don't let up until He does.
>>1384522
Unlike those stringent hard working thinkers that require zero proofs at all.
It must be frustrating being so powerless, knowing your own retardation is apparent, not just to everyone else, but foremost to yourself.
>>1384516
Now I'm not going to force you to love me, I'm just going to let you fall into this eternity of indescribable pain and suffering, that I set up especially for you, knowing full well since the beginning of creation that you were always destined to fall into. Destined by me, specifically.
>>1384542
I'm pretty sure Jesus specifically said not to test God.
>>1384540
There's a massive amount of evidence for a global flood about 4600 years ago. Massive.
Take a chance and look at the evidence through the eyes of creationists for a change.
The reason you think these things are wrong is because you have philosophies that interfere with the natural processing of information; philosophies like rationalism, uniformitarianism, materialism, etc.
What you see as layers of the earth's crust over millions of years are actually hardened mudslides from the Flood sediment.
Sediment. Sedimentary rock. 4600 years of which is amassed in every major river delta on earth, and no more.
No, see the truth and forget the lies you've been told; God is right, and men are not.
ffs they found Jericho, walls blown down, torched, with one corner still standing.
>>1384530
>Just as God will not impose His sovereign will upon your sovereign will
"But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses."-Exodus 9:12
>>1384516
The difference between me, and your unloving, psychotically evil god, is that my children remain my children even if they decide to do bad things.
>>1384543
It might be if I did not know that the word of the Lord does not return void. Someone plants a seed here, someone waters over there, someone watches the plant grow. It's all God's work, really.
>>1384538
Because he is psychotically evil. Probably as a result of being a fabrication of cave men.
>>1384544
You're not very well acquainted with Jesus and Pilate's interactions. I suggest you read them.
Admit? kek
I am a YEC because I believe the bible, and not men's imaginations that are constantly changing and constantly wrong.
>>1384561
Here's something I don't understand about Global Flood people.
You believe that Kangeroos travelled thousands of miles over barren dead wasteland in the space of at most a few decades, leaving 0 fossils, for whatever reason, and then the land bridge just magically closed behind them?
>>1384553
Such a fate would be holy, just and righteous.
And unnecessary.
>>1384578
They also don't seem to understand how rivers work.
>>1384560
That would be things like walking off of the temple and expecting angels to bear you up; the things the devil tempted Jesus with.
God has no problem proving Himself to people who ask Him to; even demand Him to. Moses, Gideon, Joshua, Hezekiah; they all demanded and received God's hand in their life.
>>1384576
You mean how he casually invites Jesus to speak with him alone, banters around with him, and repeatedly recommends that the crowd spare Jesus? Calling yourself a God would be a direct challenge to the Emperor, and Pilate would have no hesitation in carrying out sentence. It was added to the Bible to try and whitewash it to the Romans and pass the buck onto the Jews, creating the thousands of years of Christian persecution of Jews in the process.
>>1384563
Pharoah hardened his own heart 7 times, 7 being the number of completion.
Further, the hearts of the rulers are in the hands of God to turn as a river.
So no, what happened to the Pharoah is only applicable to any rulers who take authority from God and hold it over people.
Pharoah hardened his own heart; God made sure that the Pharoah did not lack the power to sustain his decision.
Just as God will make sure you will not lack the power to sustain your decision to rebel against Him.
What has He to fear from you?
please answer my original question guys
>>1384566
And other people's children remain other people's children.
Just like with God and His children, and the children of the devil.
>>1384579
So here we have a case of a man who has just directly called punishing someone with eternal torture, for the state of not loving god, "just".
I think this is the perfect poster for all religion.
>>1384561
Sargon of Akkad formed an Empire a few decades after the end of the flood.
Egyptian chronology predates the flood.
The chronology of Mesopotamian civilizations does as well.
There is literally no way a pair of each species of animal managed to survive and thrive on a planet as immensely wrecked as ours would be after a global flood.
The logistics of Noah's Ark are difficult, to say the least. Woodmorappe had to turn Noah into a veritable genius and master of animal husbandry and selective breeding beyond compare to make the story even begin to sound feasible.
>ffs they found Jericho, walls blown down, torched, with one corner still standing.
And all of the evidence suggests it was that way long before Joshua and the Hebrews were said to have marched through.
What's more likely, that the Hebrews attributed the ruins of a city to the deeds of a great ancestor, or that the city was supernaturally destroyed.
>>1384575
Oh, I see. You're one of those "God doesn't exist and I hate Him" people.
>>1384589
>This ad with no further evidence behind it must be true because everyone in the ad seems happy!
>>1384578
No, I actually am persuaded that they traveled aboard floating biomasses of denuded trees and shrubbery along ocean currents, having been pushed out of the good grounds by placental mammals.
>>1384594
Show me where Jesus told Pilate He is God.
>>1384607
What is your problem with hating fictionary characters?
>>1384601
>implying the devil can conceive of children or ever exist in the state of having children
heretic spotted, enjoy knowing your fellow christians would flay the flesh from your skin for what you've just spoken
>>1384603
Yes, of course. All of God's judgments are holy, just and righteous, as He is holy, just and righteous.
What did you think joining the devil's army in rebellion against God was going to pay?
>>1384607
If I say Mario jumps really high, I don't mean that Mario is a real person. The character of Yahweh of the OT is indescribably evil; he commits genocide, endorses sex slavery, officiates racism, murders, acts with complete indifference to human life, is self-described "jealous", and has at any point the power to stop any of this from happening, but deliberately refuses not to. His character is irredeemably evil. The NT is even worse in some ways, as the eternal torture dimension becomes more prominent.
>>1384633
I'm far from a believer, but Yahweh is really nothing special by the standards of ancient gods. The Greek pantheon, and the other Levantine deities like Baal, were just as brutal. He doesn't stand out in terms of violent acts.
>>1384607
Subhuman, there are real existing psychotically evil people that are alive right now, like you, that I do not hate.
I do not hate you, because you exist as entertainment for me, and I do not hate god, as he exists as a case study on humans for me.
>>1384617
>"My Kingdom is not of this world."
Jesus is claiming to be supernatural, and a being of immense power, so consequently, he's calling himself a God, or something similar. That's assuming that Pilate has heard nothing things he's said in the past.
>>1384639
Yeah, but those Gods are not beings of infinite power, but finite power. They often have conditions they have to obey. Yaweh has the power to do whatever he wants, rather than have to play politics. He creates the conditions, and he still creates horrifying ones.
>>1384626
>What did you think joining the devil's army in rebellion against God was going to pay?
What happens when you rebel against your parents? They don't murder you, they drag you kicking and screaming to salvation whether you want it or not.
That is why parents deserve paradise, and why god deserves to beg to cease existing.
>>1384596
>Pharoah hardened his own heart; God made sure that the Pharoah did not lack the power to sustain his decision.
Did you even read what the fuck you just said? That is by definition not hardening your heart if you were going to change your mind, otherwise, God wouldn't do it. It doesn't matter how many times Pharaoh hardened his own heart in the past. If God did it even once then this "free-will" rule doesn't exist.
>>1384604
You rely on things less reliable than the bible, and then declare the bible to be false.
And you reveal you had information against claims you had made earlier.
Sargon by my reckoning is centuries after the Flood.
Egyptian chronology is a joke.
There is a way animals survived the flood, because we had a flood, and we have animals.
Life.....uh....uh.....uh.....finds a way.
There's a Feasibility Study of Noah's Ark still in print.
God helped Noah the entire time; no reason He wouldn't help Noah during the 370 day ordeal.
The evidence is that the walls of Jericho fell forward, and the city put to the torch.
I hate the father of lies, and all I smell in your posts is sulfur and attar.
>>1384116
there is no evidence of god existing, and those that make the claim that god exists needs certain evidence or the whole argument is invalid, the bible is not evidence of god
>>1384622
Most people are children of the devil. You, for instance.
1 John 3:10 [ The Imperative of Love ] In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.
>>1384622
The Nephilim were literally children of the devil. Angel/human hybrids.
Maybe read the bible.
>>1384633
If God were as you think He is, I would not love Him either.
Luckily for me, you get your information about God from the father of lies.
>>1384678
You're more satanic than anyone else I could possibly imagine.
>>1384671
>You rely on things less reliable than the bible, and then declare the bible to be false.
>Archaeological evidence and dating with modern technology is less reliable than a rambling desert myth book
>>1384642
Kingdom.
King.
Pilate wrote "King of the Jews" on His cross.
So, show me where Jesus told Pilate He is God.
>>1384667
When you rebel against your parents, if you were in Israel under God's Law, your parents would walk you out of town, lay their hands on your head, and they and the neighbors would stone you to death.
>>1384589
Moses and Joshua are not historical figures.
if Moses and Joshua are to be taken at face value, why not Mohamed and Joseph Smith? Don't they have far more plausible claims to have visions of the divine?
>>1384686
How is that luckily for you?
Did you just seriously claim that someone's downfall is lucky for you? God would make you beg for forgiveness for that.
>>1384668
Pharoah was not going to change his mind. He was just going to fail, because he was a weak human.
God made sure he didn't fail, because he was a weak human.
God will make sure you don't fail, because you are a weak human.
>>1384674
There's so much evidence (the universe) that to not believe is considered rebellion against God.
>>1384689
And you do nothing but lie, as your father instructed you.
>>1384690
Word of God > everything else combined, yes.
>>1384686
He literally commits genocide against multiple tribes, not to mention the whole human (and animal) race, the only people he let's survive in some cities are the virgin females, and the Mitzvot actively encourages racism against certain groups of people, and saying that you must never be accepting of them.
"Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God."-Exodus 34:14
>>1384696
They are, actually. You just don't want to admit it, because admitting the bible is true is scary.
And you're kind of a pussy, aren't you.
I take both Mohammad and Joe Smith at their word, and know them both as men convinced by an angel to teach a different gospel about a different Jesus, and thus both are accursed.
>>1384671
Ussher's chronology puts the flood at roughly 2348 BC. A quick wiki check says Sargon reigned from about 2334 BC – 2279 BC.
You can argue that ancient chronology is rough, and he actually came about a bit later, but even if you pushed him back a couple centuries that's hardly enough time for noah's descendants to diversify that much, a Sumerian culture to develop, and then Sargon coming along to unify it.
I'll give you that Egyptian chronology is dodgy at best, but Egyptian civilization almost certainly didn't begin after 2200 BC or so.
>There is a way animals survived the flood, because we had a flood, and we have animals.
This is awful reasoning.
>>1384701
Luckily for all of us then.
Lucky God isn't as the devil says He is.
>>1384694
And then those parents were brutalized for thousands of years themselves by gods own actions, kek.
>>1384719
Are you saying God does not have a right to judge His own creations?
>>1384717
You would literally believe the Bible over you're own eyes and senses? If it said Pi is equal to 3 exactly, would you believe it?
>>1384702
>Pharoah was not going to change his mind. He was just going to fail, because he was a weak human.
What the fuck are you even trying to say? If he wasn't going to change his mind, why did God harden his heart?
>>1384674
>and those that make the claim that god exists needs certain evidence
So how about this?
>>1384417
>>1384454
Why would I have to reply to you in this sort of discussion and you not to me?
Listen, I don't have to let me be tossed, or however to call it. So don't you, and you can decide to do this or not. So can I. Anyway here is my ''''missing'''' power level >>1384331
>>1384724
Any extra-biblical sources mentioning Moses?
Any extra-biblical sources mentioning the events described in the Exodus at all?
>>1384730
>Lucky God isn't as the devil says He is.
How do you know he isn't?
>>1384730
So now it's luckily for all of us that someone is doomed? How evil can you get? Your god will punish you.
>>1384733
When I play Sims, I don't torture my own characters, or anyone else. I have more emotional connection to those pixels than Yahweh to humans.
Yahweh made those humans, and he made their character, and he made their circumstance, and he knew all of this before they were even born. God is equally culpable. If I have the full power to stop people getting murdered without consequence, I would take it in a heartbeat. God is utterly indifferent to the same scenario. If anyone should be begging forgiveness, it's him.
>>1384728
Why do you keep saying that things that happened could not have happened?
>>1384728
Are you seriously saying that the bible and wiki are equally authoritative? Equally true?
what's your evidence for the Sargon dates? Is it really just wiki?
>>1384735
The bible says pi is about 3.14 by describing a piece of furniture. In cubits.
Is pi about 3.14?
>>1384735
He wasn't going to change his mind. He wasn't going to soften his heart.
God made sure he had the power to keep his convictions.
This was a man who was slaughtering all the Hebrew baby boys. I don't know why anyone feels sorry for him.
>>1384763
>Are you seriously saying that the bible and wiki are equally authoritative? Equally true?
No, Wikipedia is vastly more authoratative than the Bible. Wikipedia usually requires citations of major claims. The Bible tells you to just accept it or face a fate worse than death.
You could actually read the links to the articles, of course. Human civilisation can be dated to as early as 10,000 years ago, human beings as early as 100,000 years under genetic diversity models.
>>1384738
Why are you implying that there needs to be extra-biblical evidence?
Is the Ilwur papyrus extra-biblical evidence? Are the chariot wheels at the bottom of Al Aqaba? Is the monument Solomon built on the other side of Al Aqaba? Is the fact that the Jews celebrate it every single year for the past 3600 or so years evidence?
>>1384740
Because I know Him, and I know the devil.
Life is not difficult. God tells the truth, always. The devil lies, always.
Believing the liar is a terminal condition.
>>1384763
>what's your evidence for the Sargon dates? Is it really just wiki?
I'm going to assume that the wiki date for something as trivial and non-controversial as a monarch's reign is relatively accurate, because it usually is.
>>1384759
>Why do you keep saying that things that happened could not have happened?
I see that this is pointless now.
>>1384746
Yes, be obtuse on the internet. That's never been done before.
We're all lucky that asshole Anon is dead bang wrong on the character of God, or we'd all be screwed.
Not just you.
>>1384789
Yes, anyone who takes wiki as gospel is not worth discussing anything important with.
>>1384778
>This was a man who was slaughtering all the Hebrew baby boys. I don't know why anyone feels sorry for him
Do you feel sympathy for the slaughtered baby boys of Canaan?
Before you say their parents practised human sacrifice and therefore deserved it, remember you're reading an (allegedly) historical account from the perspective of the Israelites. They would of course, say anything to rationalise the wanton slaughter of any tribe that opposed them.
>>1384778
>He wasn't going to change his mind. He wasn't going to soften his heart.
>God made sure he had the power to keep his convictions.
That's doublethink that would make Orwell blush.
Why are you claiming the moral high-road here when this resulted in the even larger slaughter of Egyptian children?
>>1384769
No it didn't, it said it was 3. Just like it said the Earth had foundations and could not be moved.
>>1384792
Yes, we are lucky that the god as described here does not exist. Truly lucky I should say, not your delirium of it.
>>1384785
>Are the chariot wheels at the bottom of Al Aqaba?
>unironically believing Ron Wyatt.
First of all, there are a thousand ways chariot wheels could have ended up in the red sea before we get to 'miraculous destruction of the Egyptian amy not attested anywhere but the Book of Exodus'. Second of all, there is no evidence that his grainy pictures even WERE chariot wheels. Third of all, chariot wheels in the sea for thousands of years are not going to be sitting on the bottom of the ocean, unburied by silt and sediment, nice and pretty for a picture. Fourth, Ron Wyatt is a notorious liar and fraud. He claimed to have found the fucking blood of Christ, and when asked to produce it of course, could not.
>Is the Ilwur papyrus extra-biblical evidence?
If you read the whole thing it has very little to do with any Exodus sort of event. Usually you just see a few lines snipped out of a very long and largely irrelevant document.
>>1384785
Please, explain to me who was the Pharoh of Exodus? Name me the Pharaoh whose body has not been found, and had Egypt literally destroyed by the time he was done.
>>1384787
What if I say 'I know the devil, and I know God, and I know that the devil tells the truth'?
How would that be any less valid than what you're saying?
>>1384795
Alright.
What about this date for his reign?
http://www.ancient.eu/Sargon_of_Akkad/
Or this
http://www.academia.edu/9083418/Sargon_the_Great_of_Akkad_The_First_Empire_Builder_of_Mesopotamia
Are these good enough?
>>1384814
Pharaohs getting erased from history isn't a new thing.
Nor erasing shameful events.
>>1384814
To be fair the Book of Exodus never says Pharaoh actually went into the Red Sea with his army.
>>1384833
Christ almighty you are a walking parody. The genealogy of the Pharoahs are pretty concrete around the time this Exodus supposedly happened, not to mention that there are secondary sources for them, found nowhere, incidentally, for the destruction of the army in the Red Sea. I literally wouldn't be surprised if you argued Satan put dinosaurs into the earth to test our faith, or that the earth is flat.
>>1384834
Psalms does.
"but swept Pharaoh and his army into the Red Sea; His love endures forever." Psalm 136:15
>>1384078
objective is not the same as absolute though
in his view, morality is relative to Gods will, which makes it objective
>>1384852
Oh.
I stand corrected.
PLEASE ANSWER MUH ORIGINAL QUESTIONS GUISE
>>1384856
A changing will cannot be objective, especially if you relate these morals to engrained reactions within humans.
>>1384859
No you're right, Exodus said nothing; Psalms did.
>>1384882
I listened to a part of his debate with Robert Price, it was pretty shitty. Price pretty much argued that Craig couldnt be a good scholar because he was a Christian. Of course you cant get much quality from someone who is a Christ mythicist
>>1384895
>A changing will cannot be objective
why not? all of our decisions make objective truths.
> to engrained reactions within humans.
most reactions are the result of custom though
>>1384882
They're not original because they've never been answered properly.
>>1384938
>why not? all of our decisions make objective truths.
If you want to say that something is as objective as two and two is four, it can't be three under a different circumstance. Killing children is a big no no in the Bible, but then God commands the Israelites to kill children. The moral codes are therefore not objective if they can be changed. They can objectively happen, but they cannot be objectively true as intangible statements in their own sense.
>most reactions are the result of custom though
Craig asks the audience to measure their gut feeling of a child getting tortured, and uses that feeling to argue that its therefore objectively wrong, and ergo, God exists. That would imply moral codes can never be changed, or at least, WILL never change, but Craig goes on to say that some things are okay if God tells you to do it.
>>1385001
>The moral codes are therefore not objective if they can be changed.
Of course they can be objective, since they hold true for every moral agent. However, they arent absolute, since they depend on God´s will in order to be true. They dont need to be some kind of universal in order for this to be the case. If you think they have to, then youre begging the question, since Craig doesnt believe in universals.
>That would imply moral codes can never be changed, or at least, WILL never change
It doesnt imply such thing.
>>1385026
The Bible repeatedly talks about how holy God is. If whatever he commands is moral, the statement is redundant. It furthermore reduces morality to a meaningless arbitration that only has significance due to the carrot and stick.
