Say for some reason, western culture never spread as much as it did. What culture would have been the most likely to replace western culture as the dominant one in the world? At what period did that culture miss it's chance to spread and why?
>>1376703
lol american education
>>1376703
>What culture would have been the most likely to replace western culture as the dominant one in the world?
Arab (unless you consider Islam Western, as an abrahamic religion held by a generally Semitic people), East Asian or South American, in that order.
>At what period did that culture miss it's chance to spread and why?
1500, colonization of the new world. Trade networks and resources are everything. Europoors would be SOL if China or Japan got to the Americas first.
>>1376703
The wording of this post makes me feel like it is an essay question, but anyway
It would have probably been islamic culture. The reason that western culture spread so much was because of a desire to SPREAD western culture. Not many groups throughout history cared that much about converting other groups to their way of life. For example, while the chinese had a magnificent and complex culture, they were more interested in staying in their homeland and protecting their culture from others, so they wouldnt go to say america in order to teach them to be chinese. On the other hand, islamic culture preches that the whole world should be converted to islam, so they would have been bound to send out people trying to spread the islamic way of life.
>>1376703
Latin American culture is western
>>1376731
My experience with it is that it is different enough to warrant its own category, but maybe someone more knowledgeable than me would say otherwise.
>>1376703
Any culture that felt pressure to expand outwards and wasn't stagnating by the 1500s.
The guys saying Islamic or East Asian are memeing.
>>1376742
>The guys saying Islamic or East Asian are memeing.
Why? I can understand East Asian because of their self-isolation, but Islamic culture is the type that desires to spread outwards.
>>1376739
It's basically an evolution of catholic mediterranean culture mixed with bits of northern ones.
So yes, it's western. Just like America isn't a directly european culture but is still western.
People who talk about indigenous influence are mainly nativists and marxists trying to look cool and anti-imperialistic (while spewing shit ideas of european origin)
>>1376747
Kinda, back in the 16th century the cultural decay of islamic nations started rearing it's head. Look up the ottoman history from 16-20th century and you'll know what I'm talking about.
>>1376748
That makes sense. I guess i bought into the Marxist arguments, because i always looked at the Latin american countries as mostly being the product of Spanish/native mix.
>>1376714
>Arab
Persian.
t. Aurang Bahramzadeh
>>1376703
>Japanese is a culture
It should be replaced by something like a Western-influenced East Asia, including Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, and Thailand
>>1376703
What the hell is that pic supposed to represent? Religions? Why the hell is dark blue "western"?
>>1376703
Japanese should belong to a large east asian culture. Why is India islamic?
>>1376756
Genetically? Yeah they are, but the representation of native culture is tiny in official means (as in you can still find natives trying/preserving some of their culture) but ultimately they are foreigners in the lands of their ancestors.
Plus different countries (and sometimes even parts of countries) do have different relation to natives
>Greece isn't western
Well then I don't want to be western
>>1376756
Mind you though that when I say genetically I am refering as a whole that there is indeed a lot of native ancestry (depends on the country it is either enough to be visible or barely noticeable).
Plus some regions had different colonizers, and the migrational waves all interacted differently (polacks from the 20th century wave didn't arrive to the same place and situation, or with the same mindset as 19th century germans/italians or the spanish and portuguese way before them)
>>1376771
/pol/ kids have a fascination with eastern christianity nowadays, mostly because putin is cracking down hard on gays and justifying it via the orthodox church
so they see "greek orthodox church" and figure "huh, okay, so that's an eastern culture". note that this quote has been heavily edited to avoid all the tourettes-esque spewing of the word "cuck".
>>1376703
why is Sri Lanka Hindu and not Buddhist?
why is PNG western?
Why is Eritrea Islamic and Sierra Leone not if the latter has a muslim majority and the former does not?
>>1376768
Not him, but I'd go so far so split Europe itself into three categories: Greco-Roman heritage, Byzantine Heritage, and Protestant-Enlightenment heritage.
All of Europe has Greco-Roman heritage, but not all of Europe has Protestant-Enlightenment or Byzantine heritage.
America and "Latin America" get their colonizers categories but are noted to be heading in their own directions (Latin America is clearly going separate from Iberia proper, and America is going a different direction than Britain).
>>1376798
This is not a bad subdivision honestly.
>>1376782
That map is by Samuel P. Huntington from 1992, it has nothing to do with /pol/. It's filled with shit, but Greece being Orthodox instead of Western is entirely justified. Western civilization is what developed out Latin Christendom, the Western Roman Empire and the Carolingians. It went through a common development with the rise and spread of feudalism, universities, communes, Romanesque, Gothic, the Renaissance, the Enlightenment, etc. Orthodox civilization is what developed out of Byzantium and spread to Russia and the Caucasus. It didn't go through any of the developments that the West did. Only in the 18th century with Peter the Great's that Russia became in any way Westernised, similar to what Japan did a century and a half later.
The map is dumb for a variety of reasons, not least of all because it tries to split a modern globalised world into 'civilizations' that are only useful when talking about pre-20th century history, but the inclusion of a distinct Orthodox civilization is hardly wrong.
>>1376798
>America and "Latin America" get their colonizers categories but are noted to be heading in their own directions (Latin America is clearly going separate from Iberia proper, and America is going a different direction than Britain).
What are the Anglophone west indies doing? I know most of them still have the Queen but I have no idea how closely they see themselves to the UK
Isn't there a book about this (haven't read it) where Europe near totally dies out from the Black Death?
There are only so many cultural super hubs on the Eurasian continent. It's already been said, but China (east-asia), India, and the middle-east/Islamic. The Americas are fucked no matter what so long germs remain a reality, so the Pre-Columbian umbrella culture is dead when colonists from Eurasia find them. Africa is too far behind in development and diverse to fight the cultural hegemony of the big three up north.
>>1376748
hello, anti-nativists anti-marxists argiefag here.
I consider latin america to be a very different culture in several aspects in contrast to western (mainly europe and usa) birth of the hate or oposition against them based on historical reasons (colonzation, condor plan, etc). a culture of "unity" (very badly performed) to be strong against the "imperialists" powers. also it's a very polyethinc culture where a lot (and i mean a shitload) of ethnic groups identify themselves as latins (only ethnics groups i would count out would be isolationist tribes and natives, mainly in brazil) most of them keeping their ancient customs and even languages.
also, the historical place of latin america as a perpherical group of state made them integrate several things from others cultures (not only western)
>>1376703
>What culture would have been the most likely to replace western culture as the dominant one in the world?
How can you say this when you cannot even qunatify it.
Surely Chinese culture would be the dominite one, or Islamic/Hindu.
Fuck I hate Americans. They think because they make all the movies their culture = the world.
>>1376953
If you think America doesn't have a cultural hegemony on a global scale you're delusional.
>>1376950
When was the last time you saw a tribe that was integrated, but kept their customs and language, and when were they numerous enough to influence the general culture in major ways? I mean, they are there but it'd be like saying the aboriginals are having a large impact in Australian culture.
I'm not saying they have no worth, in fact I respect natives and I wish there was more focus on preserving their culture even if modernisation is inevitable, but I am saying the basis for the latin culture is western.
Even the anti imperialistic/self determination ideals are born from imported european ideas from the 18-19th century.
Crap, even when you look to art you can see thar latin america has a long history of aping europe.
But on ethnics, yeah, they are most definetely as you defined.
And it's not like this will matter much when considering the natural differentiation that has and will continue to occur.
>>1376969
Kek, you're a fucking idiot. Movies are continually being banned in China. There is no current world hegemony, you're a proper fucking idiot if you think there is.
And is actually inline with your American delusions.
>>1376978
Get off this American website, and stop speaking the de facto national language of the United States.
>>1376981
Look at the picture of this American girl on her way to the local cinema to see the new Marvel Avengers film!
>>1376988
Yes I see she's wearing traditional African garb, and is carrying water in African designed liquid containers.
>>1376981
Just so you know this website is a literal clone of one which was made in Japan. To talk about JAPANESE culture.
It's not like many of the boards on this website are Japanese related.
:^)
>>1376990
>this has to do with cultural hegemony over the world
Just how ignorant are you?
>>1376994
>If poor people in poor countries don't have first world infrastructure they aren't significantly influenced by foreign culture.
How ignorant are you? Culture is more than entertainment.
>>1376999
>Culture is more than entertainment.
Not the modern-American culture you say has a world-wife hegemony.
>>1376973
you know that paraguay's two official laguages are spanish and guarani?
you know that in several regions in bolivia, argentina, chile, peru and paraguay inca and related cultures are as infuencial that people celebrate more the pachamama day or stuff like that christmas (and only celebrate christmas because it's comercial enough to reach those people)?
in norther argentina, some people can name more aboriginal languages or cultures than countries outside south america.
when outsiders think of latin america they probably get images of buenos aires, santiago, brasilia, mexico DF or lima, but the majority of latin america don't live in cities like that, without a drop of western culture. of course it's ugly as fuck living like that but it's still a culture
>>1376988
>cotton clothes
>plastic cannisters
>probably alive thanks to UN interventions in africa
>the goverment of her country probably has either a dependency or opposition to american goverment
>she probably knows what a jean, a TV and oil is because of american influence on her country
>>1376991
still an american website and still japanese MODERN culture is a subproduct of american influence in post-war japan
>>1377151
>being aware of a culture = being apart of said culture
Americans truly are cancerous. That little African child truly is the hallmark of American culture!
>the UN, whose beginnings weere a conglomerate
>signed by multiple nations
>is a US creation
>something which encompasses multiple nations is a single nations culture
Ignorance truly is bliss.
>cotton clothes
>plastic cannisters
Holy shit, wow. If you are going to comment on bealf of America, which is what you are doing in a culture war. Think before you fucking post you literal down syndrome retard.
COTTON CLOTHING WAS INVENTED BY AMERICANS FUCKING LOL
>>1377162
Don't bother replying, unless you want to wait a few hours for a respone I am leaving.
better yet, do reply and list off the characteristics which are unique to 'modern-americain culture' which doesn't revolve around entertainment.
Hard-Mode: No war either
>>1376703
What the fuck is up with australia?
>is neither a first world country nor it it in the west
>somehow still a western country
If the Fourth Crusade had never happened we would all be Greek-speaking, Orthodox Romans now.
infa1204%
>>1377135
>The majority of the population doesn't live like that
Except that is a load of a bullshit.
The summed population of the most populous cities in Latin America is 44 milllion.
The Brazilian state of São Paulo alone has 45 million people.
Which means that if you consider the common estimate that there are 40 million native americans in the entirety of latin america... then indeed they are a minority even when contrasted to a fragment of urban population.
So yes your idea that most latinamericans are fucking indians is retarded. Specially when in even in the rural area they -aren't- the majority (you can look up the data), and in some countries the amount of self declared natives is low enough to not even be A percent.
Impressive.
So no, your amusing idea that most people live like that is just absurd.
>It's guarani
Yes. Some place have more natives. Have you consider that they still have a tiny impact?
Specially when that kind of policy (adopting the use of the language as official) is mostly for accepting a...
Wait for it...
Minority.
More importantly, if you disregard the amount and consider the "way", how many of those do you think actually preserve the culture? Because that is purely an estimate based on ancestry, not on actual practice of cultural norms, religion or even speaking the damn languages.
Many of them assimilated to the point of no return.
>>1377955
Of the 5 most populous*
>>1376703
Islam is not a culture, duh.
>>1377191
Bullshit. If not that, then something else would have inevitably happened to fuck over the empire. It was already stagnating. It never would have lasted much longer than it did. If anything they were lucky.
>>1377955
i didn't said the natives were a majority, i said the latin americans (in culture) are a majority contrasted to those whose cultural aspects relfect more latin american culture than western (those mainly on big cities)
abaout guarani: no, they don't have a tiny impact and you realise that when they even do movies in guarani because the actors don't speak spanish well (i only seen one of those though).
also, doing that kind of things as a minority inclusion is obvious in cases like american states declaring shoshone language as second language because they had some shoshone tribes. in paraguay people actually refers themselves as guarani even when they don't speak the language because of cultural identification, they celebrate their festivals, they adopted lots of their customs, they included guarani folk in their folk, they even included guarani words in official spanish dictionaries
>>1378285
"when outsiders think of latin america they probably get images of buenos aires, santiago, brasilia, mexico DF or lima, but the majority of latin america don't live in cities like that, without a drop of western culture" is what you said, did I misinterpret?
>>1378285
1. Paraguay is pretty unique, using an exception does not prove the rule.
2. While language does shape things the indigenous contribution still doesn't go beyond minor once you consider things like economy, politics, religion, and history.
3. Only a small minority actually identifies as indigenous, in fact they are a smaller part than both mixed (mestizo) and also smaller than the self declared whites in some research. And again. Genetics isn't defining culture.
All in all I'd say it changes nothing, it's like saying if Swedes celebrated norse culture they'd somehow become less western.
>>1376703
Indian culture. We will be superpower soon.
>>1378349
POO
>>1378367
LOO
>>1376731
came to the thread to make that point
multiethnicism =/= multiculturalism, this is usually very overlooked by anyone who looks at Latin America, all races were absorbed into an Iberian civilizational foundation
>>1376731
I personally divide "THE WEST" in four core categories.
>Roman
Catholic, romance language speakers. The countries along the western Mediterranean and their American colonies. None of them have been major geopolitical powers for a while, but the traditional center of influence has been Rome. Nowadays, the European portion is mostly being influenced from outside by the EU, and large parts of the American portion have traditionally been politically and economically influenced by the US.
>Greek/Slavic
Orthodox, and mostly Slavic (thought not completely and doesn't include all Slavs). Traditionally influenced by Constantinople, and then Moscow after its fall. Russia is a fairly large regional power, but the EU is encroaching on this territory and diminishing its outward influence.
>Anglo
Protestant, English speaking. Significantly detached from continental Europe, mostly centered in London and early American colonies like New York and Philadelphia, before centralizing in Washington DC. Both the United Kingdom and United States have been major geopolitical players throughout history.
>Continentals
At the center of the three groups. Any kind of mix-matching of the aforementioned three cultures is possible, with various centers of influence, like Paris and Vienna, and nowadays Berlin and Brussels. Germany and -to a lesser extent- France are, through the EU, the major regional powers.
>>1377969
The Empire was at the peak of its affluence right now. It may not have been powerful outwards, but it had an extremely robust economy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_economy
But it is a fact that we probably wouldn't be speaking Greek if the 4th crusade never happened, unless you happen to be Eastern European, in which case it is slightly more probable.
The biggest and most obvious change I can think of is the fact that America would probably have been discovered slightly later.
>>1380097
>right now
right then
>>1380076
Good division. The major conflicts of today then are more correctly defined as an Islamic-Anglo and to a smaller aspect, Islamic-Continental rivalry. Interesting since the importance of the Christian religion and its participation in public life remain more untouched in the Roman-Catholic civilization. But how to see the geopolitical divide of Russia, the leader of the Slavic world, towards all of the others? Would they remain in the West after a century of opposition to the rest of it?
>>1378285
I was born and raised in a small town in Brazil, and there is almost nothing different in the common outlook, culture, customs and traditions than in a Portuguese, Italian or even (with understandable different backgrounds) Polish village, which I also had the opportunity to experience. Catholicism must not be underestimated as civilizational paradigm. The idea that western life in a cultural/historical/social sense is limited to the metropolis doesn't make sense.
>>1376771
Separating Orthodox from the West is dumb anyways.
>tfw I will never be Greek
The grass is greener on the other side.
>>1380105
Russia has always been on the fringe of the West to begin with, but its common heritage with the rest of it is undeniable.
Depending on how the Western powers act, Russia could remain adversarial or seek some sort of conciliation.
>>1380135
What are you? Pretty much every part of the world I can think of is interesting. There are cool aspects to almost every single nationality/culture.
>>1380929
Bonus points if you know the name of the country without looking it up.
>>1381025
Guatemala?
I remember there is Honduras and Guatemala, Nicaragua is above Panama and below both, and Honduras is gay as fuck, so it must be Guatemala.
WAIT
No it's Honduras.
Oh shit you're gay as fuck.
>>1381025
That's El Salvador! That's cool, I'm not the anon you're replying to, but how does Salvadorean (?) culture differ from the other Central American countries? I know the histories are different within the past century, especially with the civil war in the 1980s. Is El Salvador as dangerous as Honduras is right now with gang wars, etc?
>>1381025
Dude you live in the Caribbean.
>Sun
>Sea
>Fish/Seafood
>Joie de vivre
>Chaotic/corrupt country with no money
You are basically a Greek.
t. Greek
>>1381033
Anon, please stop.
>>1381054
Culturally, we're very close to Guatemala and, to a lesser extent, Honduras. Somebody leaving on the eastern part of the country might answer the opposite, though. We have a little less Mexican influence than Guatemala does, and we love sucking American cock (until recently, the current government loves sucking Venezuelan balls instead).
There's a large culture of trying to get out of the country when you're able to, which has led to remittances becoming a significant portion of the economy.
We're extremely polarized (the divide stems from the colony days, erupted into the civil war you mention, and is nowhere close to going away anytime soon), which leads to some areas of the country (and the capital) being extremely dangerous while other areas having southern cone tier standards of living. That means that while I read about gang killings (recently, cop vs gang violence has risen quite a bit, from both sides. Politicians are comparing certain regions to the Wild West), I don't really have anything to fear when going outside for my daily commute, since I live in one of the best areas.
Our most important part of distinction would be the food though. I know I'm biased, but Salvadoran typical dishes are better than any other in the region.
>>1381113
>Caribbean.
We don't even have an Atlantic coast, we're the only North American country able to claim that. The Pacific ocean, while having some nice (though not as nice) beaches, is pretty empty.
We do have all the things you mention tho.
>>1381149
>pacific ocean not as nice as Atlantic
How come? I always thought the Pacific was cool. I guess you mean the Caribbean part of the Atlantic, not the actual Atlantic itself because that's just a cold brown abyss.
Also, post some of your foods.
>>1381149
Thanks anon, I always like hearing about countries from its people; I'm in the US, and our media tends to be one-sided or one-dimensional when it comes to discussing foreign countries.
The only Salvadoran food that I know of is Salvadoran crema; I see it at the lcoal Mexican grocery store. Is that like a sour cream, or is it more sweet? Or is it more like a cheese?
>>1381149
The joke is the country is so insignificant that I couldn't even remember it despite remembering every other country.
Hell, I can point to you the exact location of Ulaanbaatar on the map but I can't name a single relevant fact about El Salvador!
:^)
[spoiler]I am just teasing you to hide my own cultural insignificance
>>1381160
>I guess you mean the Caribbean part of the Atlantic
Yeah, pretty much. Extremely beautiful beaches all around, and lots of islands.
>Also, post some of your foods.
I picked some that aren't just our local version of a more general Latin American dish. Sorry for being shit at making collages.
Pupusas (top) are the most famous, and with good reason. They're maize tortillas usually filled with cheese, beans and (optionally) pork, but you can (and people do) pretty much stuff anything in there.
The rest I can't really explain in detail, but clockwise from the second picture on:
-Pasteles (cakes), whose name is confusing because they aren't actually sweet. They have meat inside and are kind of like other Latin American countries' empanadas.
-Nuegados, a traditional sweet made from maize, I think, eaten with plenty of an extremely sweet syrup whose name escapes me and chilate, a traditional (also maize based) drink that helps with the heartburn. This was probably the native's "tea time".
-Semita, a traditional pastry. Not to be confused with Mexican semitas, which are another thing entirely. Semita by the way means Semite lady.
-Empanadas, plantain based sweets, with milk or beans inside. Its common to eat them as desserts after eating pupusas.
>>1381264
I can't imagine appearing in American news too much unless something's gone horribly wrong. We do have good trade relations though, as far as I know, and use the US dollar as our currency.
>cream
It's usually pretty sour over here, but I don't really like it like that myself.
>>1381282
>The joke is the country is so insignificant
I know ;-;
>I am just teasing you to hide my own cultural insignificance
Where are you from m8?
>>1381374
They all look delicious, but also unhealthy as hell!
>>1381420
Yeah, you definitely don't want any of them near you if you're on a diet.
>>1381374
>Maize tortas.
Arepas and this shit is only good thin. The rest seems standard Latin American stuff originating in europe. I know nothing about Salvadoreñan cuisine tough, so any shed of light is cool.
>>1382057
It's nothing like Arepas, and while thick maize tortillas aren't for everybody (you pretty much have to get used to them), the fillings make the pupusas completely different beasts compared to plain old tortillas.
Semitas are definitely inspired by European pastry, and while I'm not too sure about the pastelitos and empanadas, it's not impossible they are similarly inspired by European dishes, although I'd be rather doubtful, specially for the latter. In any case, I'd be surprised if the nuegados and chilate aren't completely native and actually precolonial.
I would also like to point out that "originating in Europe" and sharing a common origin are very different things. Even if a dish is made by criollos trying to emulate a European dish with local ingredients, that dish still wouldn't have been originated in Europe. Not that I'm sure that's even the case here, though.
>>1377187
>Australia
>not first world
>not culturally western
¿Estas retrasado?
>>1378370
We did it reddit!
Japanese
