Seeing as Christianity is cucked beyond repair, and seeing as atheism leads to death, what religion could cause a Western Renaissance?
>Islam
Out of the question.
>Paganism
Based. Strong morals. Too particularist though. Could degenerate into petty bickerings between ingroups and vulnerability to divide and conquer tactics.
We want something that is just enough particularist as to allow for the exclusion of otherkin, and just enough universal as to embrace all Westerners.
>Hellenic Paganism
All the positives associated with Norse Paganism, but with a much larger collection of ancient texts. History of ancient Greece and Rome. Tended to see other people's gods are their own, so easily adaptable. (Ex: Celtic Taranis = Jupiter.)
>Buddhism
Seeks the end of suffering, not of sin/guilt. It can be especially based in the Evolian interpretation, namely that it was an exclusive religion of and for the Aryans. Emphasis on the individual rather than the collective can lead to the same faults are Christianity. Dangerously compassionate. Can easily degenerate into cuckoldry and acceptance of otherkin.
>Thelema
Interesting. Emphasizes will-power. Also endorsed by Evola. Vast wealth of medieval, renaissance and modern occult literature to go with it. Dangerously Masonic, Judaic and Egyptian symbolism could degenerate into cosmopolitanism, exoticism and openness to otherkin. Individualist (see Buddhism).
>>1365139
Some mix of hellenic polytheism and thelema probably.
>>1365139
the west had its time, and its now colapsing and eating itself....no religion can revive it.....if anything the only religion that might unite large chunks of the west might be stupid versions of fundamentalist christianity that might make us slide back
also, paganism isnt a religion, its a collection of religious practices, modern 'paganism' is a naive fantasy
helenistic paganism has no bareing on modern peoples and is too thought of as mythology and history to come back
islam has no real traction in the west culturaly
and budhism has the abve problem of cultural traction
you need to acept that the world is about to change its axis and the west will fall slowly but surely
>>1365139
>Islam
>Out of the question
Not quite, according to the founder of Thelema and certain later adherents but that's a long and convoluted story.
>Paganism
Almost a meaningless designation without further specificity. Could mean anything or nothing.
>Hellenic Paganism
I do think the later Neoplatonic and GMP materials are pretty based. If you wanted a group more inclined toward "renaissance", these are probably it.
>Buddhism
I have no clue why any serious Buddhist practitioner would give a wet shit about revitalizing any given culture.
>Thelema
1) If you can't handle the Egyptian, Kabbalistic, and to a lesser extent Freemasonic materials it's rooted in then it's not for you. 2) Evola didn't REALLY endorse that shit, and if you want to take a right-leaning perspective on the practices I recommend Fuller and Pessoa (i.e. Brazilian Integralism), though I would also question any approach to Thelema that favors traditionalism over synchretism and I doubt actual Adepts are any more interested in cultural revitalization than any given Buddhist.
>>1365139
>Hellenic Paganism
Ding, ding, ding, we have a winrar
Something akin to this is the only real answer
>>1365160
things like thelema dont have mass apeal....their char is in the mystery of it all, and i dont think it would work or suit a large population
mystery religions wont work
>>1365181
They worked for a very long time before and after the consolidation of the Church.
The good thing about Thelema is that it's tiered. You can approach the system entirely as a secular philosophy or as a corpus of ritual practices, or somewhere between.
The only litmus test for a Thelemite's acceptance of Liber L.
>>1365181
>mystery religions wont work
They do when they are combined with hallucinogenic revelries
>>1365139
Why not Judaism?
>>1365139
>implying any of this will enkindle a "Western Renaissance"
Whatever the hell this is even supposed to be
>>1365199
If you're looking for accessible, Hebrew mysticism rarely fits the bill.
>>1365181
The thing is that in Greece and Rome paganism came in both flavours, to suite different personalities. According to Evola and Guenon, every religion was supposed to have a more normie side as well as a more esoteric side. Ex: Islam and Sufism, Judaism and Kabbalah.
The Christian esoteric side was supposed to be either Gnosticism or Hermeticism, but those fools in Rome fucked up by persecuting everything and everyone.
>>1365187
>You can approach the system entirely as a secular philosophy
I forgot how close Thelema is to the philosophy of Nietzsche. Coincidence or was old man Crowley a fan of him?
>>1365208
But it's the most well-developed and worthwhile
i dont think exsisting religions will do......paganism is and was over for fucking ever and is now only practiced by people pissed off at mom/dad/christianity, islam has a culture clash thing with the west, budhism has a new age flakey reputation in the west
we know these religiouns and know enough about the to be skepticle of them, to view them as foreign odities we dot actualy believe
a new religion would need to be new, organic, and a product of the culture.....and the trouble with the information age is that such a religion would have no privacy to develop and would get thought of as cultish very quickly...think about it, established religions are all old, there are hadly and new ones
>>1365212
No, Crowley was a fan. I think N's role is overplayed. The Old Goat seemed to be lifting far more from Schopenhauer proper, honestly.
>>1365139
>what religion could cause a Western Renaissance
None, especially not an indigenization of another, previously existing religious system. Rather than see the West in decline, as people have for fucking ever, see it as a transformation. Religion, despite claims of stagnation, is in a state of constant transformation as social conditions effect religious institutions, the wider religious community, and interpretations of the given religious discourse.
>Emphasis on the individual
I don't think you have a very firm understanding of Buddhism, or any other religion you're posing. Your emphasis on "degeneracy" and concern for a very slim minority of weirdos tells me you are a /pol/tard.
>>1365139
Wow, you're like.. stupid as fuck. "Cucked" check up the definition of that word, just because our Pope is a fucking tard and a false prophet does not mean every catholic is, for example. This is something you assumed. Go eat shit.
>>1365212
the esoteric also flourished in an age when it could be kept quite secret....today i can find digital archives of tibetan/hebrew/hermetic/thelemic, etc texts that would have been saved for initiates and people at higher levels.....today would an esoteric system survive when its scripure could end up dumped on the web and spread like fire across social media
>>1365214
>most well developed/worthwhile
Um, I could quibble about that in terms of Vajrayana and Saivism, but w/e.
>>1365216
>paganism
Again, a meaningless designation without specificity. If you're talking about the fat girl who gets books on "Wicca" from the local Barnes and Noble wearing a bajillion crystals and shitty commercial 'magic' oils to hide her stank, then fine.
I'm a practicing Thelemite and was not exposed to much Christianity as a child, I was raised secular.
>>1365199
judaism is an old school religion....it was the religion of a specific people, their god is the jewish peoples god and he doesnt care about converting the world.....judaism isnt a hugely convert friendly religion(its conservative sects wont often acept you if your mom wasnt jewish)
judaism in a way is a living dinosaur of a religion
>>1365198
im saying the wont work across a country the size of america....i think mystery religions are better suited to smaller populations
>>1365139
>Christianity is cucked beyond repair
Is it? Seems to be fixing itself, and is within a stable society.
>Islam
>Out of the question.
Why? Too logical? makes too much sense? Too fluid and adaptable?
>>Paganism
>>Hellenic Paganism
>Based. Strong morals.
lmao right, sacrificing virgins to appease gods and masturbating with feces for a better farming season is totally based.
>Buddhism
>Seeks the end of suffering, not of sin/guilt.
only legit thing you said. but Buddhism fits into any religion, and is more of a personal spirituality than a social thing.
>Thelema
all flaws you mentioned could happen with any religion. this also makes no sense.
>>1365225
But you wouldn't fully understand these texts without the proper instruction. This is why many esoteric orders function in a hierarchical lineage.
>>1365139
HELLENISED BUDDHISM
>>1365233
All sects of Judaism accept converts. You can be half Zulu and half Eskimo, but if you're devoted to the exaltation of God then even a Chassidic rabbi will help you become a Jew
>>1365225
This could be easily remedied by having an oral tradition and or a tier system like Freemasonry. Freemasonry is a good example because even though there are countless thousands of books about Freemasonry, as well as "whistleblowers", nobody can claim with absolute certainty what it' s all about. And even if they do know, there will always remain a shadow of a doubt.
>>1365244
I like it. Please develop further.
>>1365240
>Is it? Seems to be fixing itself, and is within a stable society.
america and europe are becoming increasingly non religious(mind you im not saying atheistic, just, nont concerened or going to church or claiming the religion just out of habbit)
>>1365233
>judaism is an old school religion
So? People back in the day were just as smart as people are today. They just had less tools and less information. Judaism is a very rational religion if you look at the core of it's ideas.
>their god is the jewish peoples god and he doesnt care about converting the world
It actually did. It just lost the conversion-fight to Christianity and Islam because it shifted and corrupted overtime. Look at a Jew from Africa and one from Europe, and tell me they didn't convert people.
>judaism in a way is a living dinosaur of a religion
and yet it's still better than anything else you listed, and equal to Islam and Christianity.
>>1365242
This too. Nobody can make any sense of an alchemical text without having the proper hermeneutical key, even though they are publicly avaiable.
>>1365139
>the West
LMAO
And you don't pick religions all willy-nilly, you pick them based on truth. It is also foretold that Christians will lose their way and that only few faithful will remain in the end.
>>1365244
>you will never learn at the feet of Buddhist, Platonist, and Zoroastrian masters at Kampyr-Tepe.
>>1365252
>america and europe are becoming increasingly non religious
does that matter? popularity of church/temple/whatever have always waxed and waned throughout history. There is a rise in spirituality in the west. Spirituality and Religiousness are 2 different things. The rise in spirituality is forcing churches (and temples, and even mosques) to adapt and stop being about traditions and rules, and focus on community and inner peace, as religions were meant to.
Religions are just moving away from a victorian era influence. that's not the same as dying.
>>1365240
>lmao right, sacrificing virgins to appease gods and masturbating with feces for a better farming season is totally based.
What a gross misinterpretation. Also implying it can't be reformed under, say, a Neoplatonic exegesis. Judaism had animal sacrifice, polygamy and stoning. But they don't do that anymore.
>>1365258
>without having the proper hermeneutical key, even though they are publicly avaiable.
https://mega.nz/#F!AE5yjIqB!y7Vdxdb5pbNsi2O3zyq9KQ
>>1365242
true, but i think it effects the size of the poop of posible initiates..its easier to spared a lie or misconception then it is to correct it
>>1365272
except paganism has a ton of flaws because it focuses on concepts like nature, and nature isn't good. it's not bad, either. It's irrational, illogical, and uncaring/unaware. we know the science of nature, and don't need to use the concept of gods to explain natural phenomena.
The only appeal of paganism is humans naturally desire to worship, and paganism is the simplest, least deep, and least intellectual form of worship. The question a small child can ask, "But what created pagan gods" literally destroyed the entire concept.
You need logic in a religion, and paganism lacks that.
> religion is like cosplay!
> haha i'll skip thousands of years of history
Christianity or Aristotle or both will save Europe or nothing at all.
>>1365292
>Christianity
>Aristotleanism
CATHOLICS OUT
>>1365291
>paganism has a ton of flaws because it focuses on concepts like nature
For like the third time, which paganism? There are dozens upon dozens of sects that self apply that label, and not all of them have the same doctrines, especially w/r/t nature, especially by the time we're getting to the Neoplatonic revisions of the Greek Magical Papyri.
>>1365216
How do you explain Mormonism and Scientology spreading?
>>1365216
This guy knows it.
>>1365318
Scientology's not spreading though, it's contracting, badly, with probably around 20k members globally, given how spectacularly the Ideal Org project is failing.
Mormonism's a different question though, and like most thing it has to do with their their history, in this case of survival and propagation at all costs.
>>1365304
>For like the third time, which paganism?
Doesn't matter.
>There are dozens upon dozens of sects that self apply that label
and they all appeared from the same aspect of human nature: believing nature should be worshiped.
>and not all of them have the same doctrines
yes, but they all have the same ideals.
you focus too much on the details, and ignore the bigger picture. Paganism is fundamentally flawed. It's why it's been replaced by significantly more logical religions. Everyone wants to pretend Islam and Christianity spread by force, but that's not true. They spread because they made more sense. Same with Buddhism and Sikhism and Jainism and Taoism. They're more about objectively viewing nature as it is, not pinning things to divine entities that can easily be dismissed with simple logic.
>>1365216
A wholly new Religion doesn't make that much sense, because new religious movements come into being out of previous religious cultural ferment, usually with a period of social change or chaos as a catalyst. Would you call Mormonism a new religion, or the Christian Scientists? How about the fast spreading Soka Gokkai movement, with its basis on Nichiren Buddhism and origins in the 1930s?
Remember that Christianity and Islam were once new religious movements.
>>1365291
>You need logic in a religion, and paganism lacks that.
Lol like Ape said, which Paganism? Reminder that the " logical" system of Christian theology is basically copy pasta of Neoplatonism and Aristotle.
Also so-called Pagans not only worship nature, but, sometimes even more so, emphasize the ancestors and the community. In other words they just want to be safe from the filth and insanity of our modern " culture", as well as from overarching universalistic totalitarian and deracinated idelogies such as Christianity and Marxism, and I can totally identify with that.
>>1365318
as said, Scientology isn't spreading.
Mormonism is spreading because it's still basically Christianity. it'll also stall soon, too. Why is Islam spreading? a lot of people convert to Islam in the west as well.
>>1365139
The only thing that can save you is a deathcult based on martial prowess, freedom of the individual and the ideal or justice.
>>1365337
I would that your bosom, fragrant with health, were constantly the dwelling place of noble thoughts, anon.
Is neoplatonism a religion?
>>1365240
>Seems to be fixing itself,
How so? Modern Christians are the biggest SJW cucks ever. You cant reconcile Christianity's message of love and universalism with nationalism.
>>1365337
>Everyone wants to pretend Islam and Christianity spread by force, but that's not true.
I'm not sure how this came up.
>They spread because they made more sense.
Well, I'd think it's more to do with rhetoric but at that point I'm equivocating.
>Same with Buddhism and Sikhism and Jainism and Taoism.
Here's the rub, though, there are plenty of points inside of Taoism or Buddhism that have been called historically and commonly "pagan", hence why I'm asking for specificity.
>They're more about objectively viewing nature as it is, not pinning things to divine entities that can easily be dismissed with simple logic.
So much for all these contemplative Buddhist godforms, then, and probably most of Hesiod's Theogony given late mystical interpretations.
>>1365337
>Everyone wants to pretend Islam and Christianity spread by force, but that's not true.
lol bullshit.
>>1365353
No, it's just the truth.
>>1365353
Depends on application.
In terms of Hellenic Paganism I'd say "yes" more often than not the later in general Hellenic/Roman history we go, especially when we get to periods of secular state religion.
What about zoroastranism? It's similar to christianity but your dad hasn't heard of it, it's perfect for hipsters.
>>1365353
Unfortunately, no. And it's too complicated for the average person to get.
>>1365347
strike out the freedom of he individual and islam is literally perfect OP question. ive been reading more about muhammad lately the whole "peace though submission" thing makes sense if you take out the nonsensical arab bullshit. shame his follower was batshit insane
>>1365341
>Reminder that the " logical" system of Christian theology is basically copy pasta of Neoplatonism and Aristotle.
except on the grassroots level today, no one thinks that. They see things like "Love your neighbor" and "do good works with your community" and "Worship the all encompassing God that is a more logical concept than the god of farts or whatever the fuck."
>emphasize the ancestors
also illogical. ancestor worship is very primal and backwards.
>and the community
modern paganism began this because it's influenced by Christianity. They took the Judeo-Christian ideal and just took it.
>want to be safe from the filth and insanity of our modern " culture"
>overarching universalistic totalitarian and deracinated idelogies
so...any religion can do in this regard. Why pick something illogical like paganism? Christianity has so many sects that using it as an example makes no sense. Marxism isn't a religion, but a flaw concept of what society will be, even though he's wrong on many accounts.
>>1365139
Paganism is dead, Buddhism simply does not have enough of a following, tradition or even a desire to prosletyze. It's either Christianity or Islam, and the West is overwhelmingly choosing for Islam.
>>1365357
Fuck off my thread.
>>1365337
You realize Taoism has a pantheon of celestial beings, right? I would say these movements were adopted because they had greater technologies to offer the laity, in terms of alleviating current anxiety and existential grief.
>>1365139
>as atheism leads to death
What? No it doesn't. Atheism is fine if secular countries don't import hordes of catholics and Muslims.
>>1365375
>Why pick something illogical like paganism?
Why do you care? Also your idea that a religion has to be logical is fundamentaly flawed. Religious sentiment is illogical, or rather non- or even supra-logical in its root. Only theology has to be logical and the Pagans Plato and Aristotle have given the bluerprint of every theological system that followed.
>>1365378
>choosing
>>1365375
Nice dodge, but at the end of the day christian theology owes far too much to neo-platonic philosophy for you to make the distinction you are trying to make between "illogical polytheism" and "rational monotheism".
I see some positive aspects in the baha'i faith.
If Christianity declines I'd much rather an explosion of baha'i than Islam.
Baha'i might be the way to save the west.
>>1365355
>I'm not sure how this came up.
part of my point. Islam and Christianity appeared from the grassroots level because pagans realized paganism was illogical and irrational, so they converted. When a lot of them converted, political figures usurped the ideas for personal gain.
>that have been called historically and commonly "pagan"
what the masses call it doesn't matter. That's nothing more than the rabble being the rabble. Ultimately, they disregard pagan gods.
>>1365378
>>Paganism is dead
Wrong.
>>the West is overwhelmingly choosing for Islam
Also wrong.
>>1365391
Except that's exactly what they do and that is mainly due to loss of faith and identity. If Sweden was Christian, it would be out of the question to bring Muslims, for example.
>>1365261
>It is also foretold that Christians will lose their way and that only few faithful will remain in the end
What an amazing prediction lol. Even the authors is the bible knew it couldn't last for long.
>>1365399
>Ultimately, they disregard pagan gods.
>>1365384
>You realize Taoism has a pantheon of celestial beings, right?
only traditionally. At it's core, the idea of Taoism either says pagan entities are simply products of a nature greater than themselves, or simply don't exist.
>>1365391
God, shut up. Atheism has existed openly in the Muslim world for most of history. Actually, when Atheist ideals take power, they end up with the worst genocides in human history.
>>1365397
Dogma and tradition are meaningless. Christianity, at it's core, is based off of Judaism. Early Christianity incorporating pagan traditions is irrelevant, and has been for a very long time.
>>1365399
>>pagans realized paganism was illogical and irrational, so they converted
You keep saying this and it still remains bullshit. Look up some of the Theodosian Edicts against polytheist belief in the late roman empire.
>>1365409
Never mind the early Buddhist Tantras credit Saivism for their godforms, praising their mantras, which experience continued veneration.
>>1365408
Yeah, they predicted Christ to return within their lifetimes. It's an amazing feat that Christianity survived for thousands of years with this blatant failed prophecy. More proof that religions need not have nothing "logical" or "rational" about it to thrive, as that other anon wrongly asserts.
>>1365412
>the idea of Taoism either says pagan entities are simply products of a nature greater than themselves, or simply don't exist.
Wait, in what way is this different from Chaldean Oracles or any of the Neoplatonic texts it draws from?
>>1365398
>explosion of baha'i than Islam.
it's the same shit, though. Baha'i basically existed as an attempt to remove political power from Islam. Just Sufism and Shi'ism.
>>1365409
>Some Taoists believe in pagan gods
>therefore, Taoism is pagan
plz. There are Taoists that believe in the God in Islam or Christianity, as well. Does that make all Taoists Muslim or Christian?
>>1365412
>>Early Christianity incorporating pagan traditions is irrelevant
That's not what I'm talking about though and Dogma and Tradition are not irrelevant for the faithful even if they do look for ways to ignore things in said Dogma and Tradition they don't like or agree with.
>>1365399
>Islam and Christianity appeared from the grassroots level because pagans realized paganism was illogical and irrational
>Muzzies and Christcucks calling others 'irrational' and 'illogical'
>>1365422
> They
Where did Jesus say he would come back within their lifetime?
>>1365412
>only traditionally
Why do you assume you know more about Taoist religion than Taoists themselves? You don't. You sounds like westerner crypto-atheist Buddhist "converts" that claim that Buddhists don't worships gods, or do so only "symbollically/traditionally/ironically" or whatever bs they came up with, but when you look at Mongolia and Tibet, it's a whole different story.
>>1365406
>If Sweden was Christian, it would be out of the question to bring Muslims, for example
Do you really believe that? The fucking Pope said the Arab invasion of Europe was a social reality and that it's a good thing.
Merkel is a devout Christian and the daughter of a theologian, her party is literally called the Christian Democratic Union.
>>1365414
>late roman empire.
proving my point. After Christianity spread through the Empire at a grassroots level, after people converted in huge swaths across the Empire, did the politicians take advantage of it.
>>1365427
does it matter? all of humanity follows the same sort of pattern. Monotheism is just the logical end point.
You are basically focusing a stepping stone on a mountain, instead of the peak.
>>1365399
>Ultimately, they disregard pagan gods
We're not all theravadin exotericucks, friendo.
>>1365428
I'm more specifically referring to Vajrayana iterations of Buddhism.
>>1365412
>The idea of Taoism either says pagan entities are simply products of a nature greater than themselves, or simply don't exist
So you're telling me that Taoism does not believe in the creation of the universe? Also, your "products of a greater nature" sounds a lot to me as "personification of what they represent", which in turn are pagan gods.
>>1365406
So you're doing that thing where we pretend citizens get to vote on immigration policy.
Except statistics show that nobody ever wanted more immigrants.
Governments do what they want, regardless of public approval.
You've fallen for the biggest lie of democracy. You blame the people, who supposedly have the power, but they don't make any important decisions.
>>1365428
From my cursory glance I don't think it's as violent or as easily prone to fundamentalism as orthodox Islam.
>>1365244
How "helenized" was the buddhism apart fron aesthetics?
>>1365442
>Monotheism is just the logical end point.
Gee, what should I do with all these mystical schools of nondualist mysticism inside of these otherwise monotheistic faiths?
>>1365443
ayyy
>>1365442
Dude? Christianity was not a majority religion before Theodosius started having people being murdered for practicing other faiths.
Why is everyone here trying to pick and choose religion like groceries?
Are people really this dependent?
>>1365431
>Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
>Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
>Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
Christcuck damage control incoming in 3, 2...
>>1365443
I find Mahayana's focus on synthesizing fascinating. Kannon can be seen in reference to Amaterasu and the Virgin Mary, as well in its original Buddhist context all simultaneously.
>>1365470
It's the religious culture we live in, I guess. I'm just interested in understanding different frameworks, and it's easier to learn when you speak from within them.
>>1365463
Arguable. Aesthesis actually plays a huge role in various esoteric transmission of Hinduism and Buddhism, so that feel's more important than it seems at first glance.
Also, there's evidence of certain Hellenic, Indoiranian, and high Mesopotamian concepts sharing some common root (possibly "Aryan" though evidence is mounting of Mesopotamian origins for shit like the kundalini current).
Best we can do is interpret what's there.
>>1365471
B-but muh metaphors
The Vietnamese have a mutt religion called Cao Dai that seems pretty neat.
>>1365412
>. Atheism has existed openly in the Muslim world for most of history.
Absolutely Bullshit. Give me a source on that.
>when Atheist ideals take power, they end up with the worst genocides in human history.
Such a stale argument. Logic, reason, science, and debate are the ideals promoted by atheism and the West. People think the west is a Christian world, but philosophers that taught the value of reason have had far more impact that any religion.
>>1365471
>Mark 9:1
Is this where the Orthodox belief in a sleep-like state instead of death comes from? It strikes me as odd, and I don't know that much about it. What if a Christian gets blown to bits, is he still sleeping? Will he just piece himself together when Judgement comes?
>>1365412
>Actually, when Atheist ideals take power, they end up with the worst genocides in human history.
That's demonstrably false, pick related
>>1365431
He didn't ever say that because originally Christ was a celestial diety that communicated through visions.
Fuck using the bible as a history book. That's some ridiculous shit and we all know it. You don't get to use your own religious text as a source on itself.
>>1365497
>deaths adjusted for inflation
I must convert this into hitler units.
>>1365471
I don't know the orthodox stance on this but IMO that doesn't sound like the apocalyptic judgment for all mankind as is traditionally believed will be coming within a generation.
God you guys are complete faggots
>>1365354
>Jesus literally talks about washes others feet
>Pope does it
>Think he is being a cuck
For fucks sake
>>1365494
What if early Christianity was an apocalyptic cult that made a false prediction (like Heaven's Gate) and that's all there is to it?
Secular Humanism
>>1365504
In most cases I'd say I completely agree, but I've seen some megasperg atheists who when having points of neopagan, pagan, or otherwise mystical practice and doctrine explained to them, reject the primary source material as a legitimate source for those practices being a thing.
Example:
>"actually, some pagans think X"
>"prove it"
>"this author in the current comments at length about it here, here, and here"
>"not an academic source, prove it"
>>1365504
>You don't get to use your own religious text as a source on itself.
What in the very fuck??
>>1365529
Been done. Resulting in what we see today.
>>1365212
>The Christian esoteric side was supposed to be either Gnosticism or Hermeticism,
CHristian mysticism, east and west, still exist, and have developed quite nicely for the past millenias.
>but those fools in Rome fucked up by persecuting everything and everyone.
Good thing most of Christendom was outside the Empire(Rome's jurisdiction as well). And their descendants still exist.
>>1365531
>the Bible is a reliable source of facts because some atheists think something
>>1365406
>and that is mainly due to loss of faith and identity.
Nevermind war-torn countries?
>>1365139
>Paganism
>based
So do you intend to go back to your pagan roots and drown faggots in a bog? Or maybe interpret the future by caving a man's skull in and reading his screams?
Unless you mean that joke which is nu-paganism which is the equivalent of the the KKK. Bunch of fag Europeans complaining about liberals, immigrants, and Christians while listening to shit music and drinking piss water.
>>1365535
The evidence that Jesus was a real person is the bible. Thus is an embarrassment to academia, caused by faggots coddling the feelings of Christians.
>>1365537
>X directly caused Y
>he actually believes in linear causality in something as complex as the religious culture of several continents
>mfw
Has anyone ever told you what a fucking idiot you are?
>>1365546
Quite, see Molinos' Spiritual Guide, less heretical materials, etc., etc., etc.
>>1365548
Huh? All I'm getting at is using primary texts as source is a touchy subject. I don't wanna use it as validation of anything history or achaeology has a better perspective on, but in terms of religious texts as source of points of doctrine or practice, especially inside understudied traditions, it has to be done or there's zero discussion to even be had.
IJS it's happened more times than I can count on my hands that a certain class of atheist asks a disingenuous question about an obscure pagan concept only to be swatted down for not having an academic source on a topic that MAY have an author or two publishing material in academia that only hedges the subject, or have only been expressed in the last couple years.
>>1365252
>nont concerened or going to church or claiming the religion just out of habbit
Did you know Luther was complaining about empty churches at one point?
As someone else said, attendance waxes and wains.
What about Gnosticism? Seems pretty based.
Basic tenets:
The god of Abraham (and therefore Allah too) is evil.
Jesus is basically a Western bodhisattva.
The real God is transcendent and above dick slicing.
>>1365575
>religious texts as source of points of doctrine or practice, especially inside understudied traditions, it has to be done or there's zero discussion to even be had.
I don't know why you're arguing with the atheists in your head. Let's try to stay focused here.
BAHA'I
A
H
A
'I
>>1365471
Mark 13:32
Only the Father knows when the End time will come.
So yes the quotes you pulled out are likely metaphors for the Apostles being imbue with the Holy Spirit and sent out into the world.
>>1365588
>Gnosticism
About as meaningless as "Paganism" given how many flavors it comes is.
>YHVH is evil
Not all factions had this notion, many borrow Platos' concept of Demiurge as beneficent.
>Jesus is Boddhisattva
Lol.
>Real god is Transcendent
Sorta, but at that point some of the lower hypostates are too. See: Barbelo.
>>1365593
>93
Someone brought up validity of self reference in source text. I just wanted to draw a distinction in primary citation intent, pardon.
>>1365354
>You cant reconcile Christianity's message of love and universalism with nationalism.
It's like you've never been east of the Rhine.
Pic unrelated, just found it massively hilarious due to it's narm.
>>1365493
Yeah because atheist commies were so logical and reasonable when they killed millions in Russia and wanted to do the same in Spain.
>>1365447
A lot of what is in the tao te ching just supposes that things are, have been, always will be, and there's not a ton you can do to change it so why bother?
I dabbled in it for a while when I was in college, but I felt that it made people a bit of a flat tire (There's lines literally stating that inaction is superior to action when it comes to the self)
The taoist diety(ies) is pretty much explained as a given and completely unimaginable or perceptible to the human mind, neither having a form or number, and mostly just being "stuff" in the sense of the universe around you.
Or at least, that's how I and a couple others were led to believe it. I haven't looked into it much beyond that.
>>1365606
>metaphors
Like clockwork.
>>1365609
forgot pic.
>>1365616
And yet you have no argument against Jesus himself saying only the Father knows when the end will come.
Expected
>>1365404
>Also wrong.
Explain. They're moving away from Christianity, refusing to have children and letting in unprecedented numbers of Muslims. This is an implicit choice for Islam.
>>1365608
>Someone brought up validity of self reference in source text. I just wanted to draw a distinction in primary citation intent, pardon.
You took a reasonable point and muddled it up with some irrelevant point nobody ever argues.
>>1365612
It is well known that Jewish people play crucial roles in the communist revolutions of Russia and China. So no, it wasn't "atheism" that killed those people.
>>1365614
The pantheon is more established out of folk beliefs, which were then enforced by Taoist astrology and alchemy. You wouldn't glean it from just reading the tao te ching.
I always interpreted wuwei as acting naturally, without thought and therefore in way with the Tao. It's not the literal absence of action. You can see this in how closely the total reality school influenced Chan Buddhism.
>>1365626
Other than he himself saying in three other passages that he would come back within the lifetime of the apostles?
>only the father knows
Yeah, in the sense that it could be tomorrow, or today, during the day or during the night, and yet during the timeframe which he unambiguously sets as
>Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
>Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
>Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
Your explanation that these unambiguous passages are "likely metaphors" is beyong weak. Why not the other way around? Why would exactly these passages be metaphors and not the one you cited? Your book is contradictory at least. Your exegesis is dishonest and childish.
>>1365646
Nice try fedora, Stalin purged the Jewish element from the USSR and his reign is when the worst atheist atrocities occurred.
>>1365646
Again, please accept my apologies.
>>1365641
Do you think Islam can be unfucked? What about Jariri in terms of jurisprudence? Can the influence of Qtub and Wahab be restricted if the House of Saud implodes?
>>1365653
I'm a Yi King guy so I have no comment on most matters of Taoism outside of divinitory methods and implied cosmologies.
>>1365676
>Do you think Islam can be unfucked?
Short answer: No
Long answer: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
>>1365139
Go to bed Julius.
>>1365240
>Buddhism fits into any religion,
Believing in the existence of a creator, omnipotent, independent God-being, as well as souls, fall under erroneous views. Thus a serious Buddhist practitioner cannot be a legit Abrahamic adherent at the same time. Just on the matter of ethics there should be no problem however.
>and is more of a personal spirituality than a social thing.
Only insofar as the Buddha did not embark on a pointless crusade to "fix" the volatile thing known as society. In a hypothetical society in which everybody would be Buddhists capable of great exertion and learning, things would undergo lots of changes.
>>1365403
>Soka Gakkai
Does not deserve to be called Buddhism.
>>1365378
>Buddhism simply does not have enough of a following, tradition or even a desire to prosletyze
You mean these for the West right? Because most people in the far East and SEA are Buddhist and all the civilizations of the region have been shaped by it.
>Caring what Evola thinks.
Turbo fedora.
>>1365696
>Go to bed Julius.
Julian. Get your emperors right.
>>1365676
Yeah, my study has been focused on the near contemporary East Asian religious field, so I've been looking more at community beliefs and how it affects institution and doctrine. Pretty neat stuff.
Waley's abridged translation of Journey to the West gives a good sense of Taoist cosmology as understood by the laity, with the celestial bureaucracy interacting with Buddhist deities. It's a fun read as well.
>>1365705
I was actually talking about Evola.
>>1365714
Oh, I thought you were referencing Julian the Apostate.
>>1365663
>purged
You make it sound like he built gas chambers.
In reality he set up a special jewish state the jews could call their own.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast
>Soviet authorities established the autonomous oblast in 1934.
>It was the result of Soviet nationality policy under Stalin, which provided the Jewish population of the Soviet Union with a territory in which to pursue Yiddish cultural heritage.
>>1365705
ayyy
>>1365713
Taoism while beautiful and technically correct leave philosophical voids that I have to fill elsewhere. The Yi King's about the most engagement I can milk out of the system.
>>1365681
There is one guy tryung to reform the faith, but its hopeless.
Mohammad is claimed to be the final prophet. All that is left for them is the realization of peace, meaning global sharia law.
>>1365743
>global sharia law
But jurisprudence has everything to do with interpretation and application of sharia, within Sunni Islam, and there ARE, in fact, liberal codes with respect to punishment for Hudud crimes, but they all went extinct, got subsumed, or removed from the designation of jurisprudence and moved over to general theological commentary.
Now, how to unfuck 300 years of Wahabism is the billion dollar question.
>>1365555
>Unless you mean that joke which is nu-paganism which is the equivalent of the the KKK. Bunch of fag Europeans complaining about liberals, immigrants, and Christians while listening to shit music and drinking piss water.
Hey man, just because OP is an alt-right fag doesn't mean we all are. I'm personally pretty damn cosmopolitan. I don't have any care for concepts of race whatsoever.
Christians ruined the west though. Fuck them and all the other Abrahamic religions.
>>1365759
>how to unfuck 300 years of Wahabism
Glass them.
>>1365743
>>1365759
Also, global imposition appears to be another point in this tarball of Salafism, Wahabism, and Kharijite ideology that seems endemic to the shit we're most concerned about w/r/t global security but it does not appear to be universal to each sect and doctrine.
I do think there's potential for unfucking Islam but it's going to have to come from inside the community first and foremost.
>>1365658
http://www.gotquestions.org/this-generation-not-pass.html
>>1365730
If by engagement, you mean participatory practices and magical systems, then I'm afraid I can't point to any definitive collections. However, I do know that one "goal" of Taoism is to achieve immortality, and first attempts through alchemy gave birth to Chinese folk medicine. The attempts were largely based on the consumption of mercury, so when that failed meditation became the most popular method of achieving immortality. I believe it was seen as a way to become one with the Tao, and to cultivate chi energy. The practice would go on to influence Chan meditation, both in Anapanasati and "emptiness" exercises.
Feng Shui is also heavily rooted in Taoist geomancy. This magical framework, coupled with astrological frameworks, permeate Shinto as well, which some theorize as indigenous beliefs that adopted Taoist technologies in the 6th century.
>>1365163
>helenistic paganism has no bareing on modern peoples and is too thought of as mythology and history to come back
>islam has no real traction in the west culturaly
>and budhism has the abve problem of cultural traction
This guy seems like a faggot, but he makes some pretty decent points. I recently read a really interesting book (Something along the lines of 'Anarchism in America') which made the argument that the reason communism never really caught on in the USA (aside from blatant puppet parties) was because it was culturally foreign. Communist ideology formed in Europe and became more refined in Russia and China, societies vastly different than America.
Regardless, I don't think there's a way to 'save the west' as a whole... because it isn't a whole. Colonial countries like America, Canada, and even Australia and Brazil have much more in common wit each other then their progenitors. In order to 'save the West' you have to decide if you mean Europe or the New World. Personally, I have no attachment to Europe. America has the opportunity to rise like a phoenix from the chains of Christianity still weighing her down. I intend to do whatever I can to help her do that.
>>1365759
>interpretation
Its a common mistake to treat Islam like the other abrahamic faiths.
There is no interpretation in islam. The book is clear and to be taken literal.
The moderates you speak of werent taking the faith seriously, so they were punished as dictated by the koran.
>>1365808
>America, Canada, and Australia
>having more in common with Brazil than the UK
wat
>>1365808
>culturally foreign
We can easily construe things like Lemegeton and the GMP Goetia practices it's rooted in as a sort of native Western shamanism, it's not particularly alien to West, it's more alien to post-post modernity.
>>1365811
I'm well aware of the concept of Bid'ah but if it's an open and shut case with no interpretation then why do I currently have five flavors of fiqh in Sunni Islam alone?
>>1365824
They dont disagree on the religion, just who should be in power.
>>1365824
>We can easily construe things like Lemegeton and the GMP Goetia practices it's rooted in as a sort of native Western shamanism, it's not particularly alien to West, it's more alien to post-post modernity.
Notice how I didn't call those out? I think something like them is more on the right track, though they're a bit inaccessible, and we live in a world where 'accessibility' and 'marketability' are kissing cousins. Whatever religion replaces the rotting shambles of the Abrahamics has to be marketable enough to spread.
>>1365216
so you're saying the Cult of Kek and the arcane machine is probably the future?
>>1365829
>just who should be in power
In terms of Haddith (or not) applicable to fiqh administration of Sharia?
Yes, actually, my entire point is that exact thing, and not all fiqh have historically been bastions of the Salafism, Wahabism, and Kharijite ideologies. For example Jariri appears to have significantly more liberal than anything we've seen in the era since the rise of Wahabism, so it's not completely impossible to have flavors of Islam concerned about liberal fiqh in their own community as opposed to literal occasionalist fiqh applied globally.
Just that things do not look well for Islam these days.
![quote-not-until-i-went-into-the-churches-of-america-and-heard-her-pulpits-flame-with-righteousness-did-i-alexis-de-tocqueville-311235[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/59rAhDx.jpg "quote-not-until-i-went-into-the-churches-of-america-and-heard-her-pulpits-flame-with-righteousness-did-i-alexis-de-tocqueville-311235[1].jpg")
>>1365808
>America has the opportunity to rise like a phoenix from the chains of Christianity still weighing her down. I intend to do whatever I can to help her do that.
>Chains
>Weighing down
Uh-huh
>>1365876
Nice quote! I'd argue that 'flame' in the pulpits has nothing to do with Christianity though, and everything to do with America. There's a reason why American Christianity has such a different flavor than European Christianity. That reason is Syncreticism with our true religious leanings. Whatever they may be.
>>1365839
Inaccessible is an understatement.
As much as I would love to live in a world where everyone invests in some cheap black and white tiles, curtains, and a mirror, I can't imagine Goetic magick ever actually becoming part of a public religion.
>>1365948
I think part of the problem is that for a few centuries the core practices which are relatively simple have been encrusted with a couple hundred years of high ritual synchretism.
Grimorium Verum's easy to do on the fly. Golden Dawn interpretations of Lemegeton? Not as much.
>>1365676
>Do you think Islam can be unfucked?
I finished reading the second-to-last chapter of the Cambridge Companion to the Qur'an.
tl;dr THERE'S NO POINT OF THE ALL THE SURVIVING LIBERALS, MODERNISTS AND REVISIONISTS ARE ALL HERE, THE HOLIEST CITIES AND THE MOST AUTHORITATIVE SCHOOLS OF ISLAM ARE NOT IN EUROPE
My take is, follow Mahmud Muhammad Taha and get rid of the Medina surat as they belong to that historical context, while the Meccan ones are universal:
>T. ¯ah¯a expanded this theory and designed an exegetical model according to which the corpus of verses revealed in Mecca and
the verses revealed in Medina were of a radically different character. The Meccan verses were the primary, timelessly valid revelation addressed to all humankind. As for the Medinan verses, they were revealed after the Prophet had established a political community in Medina; therefore these
revelations had to compromise with existing socio-political circumstances and were not binding for all future societies. The point of this exegetical volte-face is that according to T. ¯ah¯a the Meccan revelation taught the com-
plete equality of sexes, the command to use exclusively peaceful means to spread the Muslim message, and the equality of all social groups, i.e., the abolishment of slavery and the freedom of physical punishment such as
the amputation of hands. In Medinan verses, according to T. ¯ah¯a, all of these principles had been diluted or abolished. But now the time had come to reinstate them. The subtext of this exegesis was the Universal Declaration
of Human Rights of the United Nations promulgated in 1948. A number of
states, in which Islam was the religion of state, had opposed this declaration
because in some points it contradicted Islamic law, which was and is based among other things on certain Medinan verses of the Qur¯an. The radical
revisionist approach of Taha would have left little room for the shar¯ıa. He
was convicted of apostasy and executed by a Sudanese court.
>>1365976
Basically Muslims could consider the Medinan verses like contempoarary Jews and Christians consider Psalm 137.
>>1365904
>Syncreticism with our true religious leanings. Whatever they may be.
What is that even supposed to mean? It's far more likely that Tocqueville's comment relates to the Second Great Awakening, which happened in a time where religion was heavily in decline in Europe (keep in mind that very prominent figures like Rousseau, Voltaire, Napoleon and Hume were outspokenly irreligious and very popular for it, though hated by the Church of course).
America's rising religious zeal was truly an anomaly of the time, and to this very day we see that American religiosity is much higher than in the rest of what was once Christendom.
>>1365976
>Islamic law
No, it contradicted their particular favorite preferred fiqh.
If we want to talk about Sharia as the Quran's divine proclamations, then there's to be no punishment for apostasy.
EVERYTHING hinges on fiqh application, and the collections of Haddith (or not) that support them.
We don't need religion to have a strong religiosity.
In a real democracy, civism could be what we believe in.
>>1366002
>No, it contradicted their particular favorite referred fiqh.
In their view, he contradicted the whole Qur'an by divorcing the Medinan surat from Meccan ones.
>EVERYTHING hinges on fiqh application, and the collections of Haddith (or not) that support them.
Here's my program for a successful Islamic "reformation":
1. Treat the Medinan surat like Christians treat most of the Old Testament particularly the most violent bits.
2. Treat the Ahadith like the Hindus treat the Vedas ("They're sacred, but we really don't get our religion from them!").
3. Treat the fiqh like Jews treat the exegetical work of Philo of Alexandria.
This will never become mainstream in Islamic countries during this Century.
>>1366007
Civic religion and actual religion were often inextricable, see middle-late Rome.
>>1365139
>religion
>culture
>belief
>in the 21st century
>ever going back to your roots in the given conditions you love
>implying your love of tradition isn't simulated
>>1365139
Christianity and Islam are irevelant since the failure of the ptolemaic cosmos.
As for thelema this religion is not popular enough unlike buddhism, and it is heavily tied to christianity via the gnosticism, so i guess buddhism is the way to go.
>>1366023
Pardon, I'd misread your post, the formatting's all fucked.
I think both our points still stand.
I don't think fiqh needs to be radically depoliticized if we move them toward shit like Jarari and other forms of more or less liberal Ottoman jurisprudence.
I don't think I like the Vedic comparison, but I catch your drift.
What do we do with/about the Sufis? They don't appear to need reformation but they're functionally more irrelevant than Ibadi so I dunno, w/e.
>>1366043
>What do we do with/about the Sufis?
Really nothing.
Meanwhile, in the 13th Century:
>It is undeniable that Rumi was a Muslim scholar and took Islam seriously. Nonetheless, the depth of his spiritual vision extended beyond narrow sectarian concerns. One rubaiyat reads:
در راه طلب عاقل و دیوانه یکی است
در شیوهی عشق خویش و بیگانه یکی است
آن را که شراب وصل جانان دادند
در مذهب او کعبه و بتخانه یکی است
Quatrain 305
On the seeker’s path, wise men and fools are one.
In His love, brothers and strangers are one.
Go on! Drink the wine of the Beloved!
In that faith, Muslims and pagans are one
>they're functionally more irrelevant
A successful reformation needs to become mainstream in at least one large Islamic country of North Africa or the Middle East.
We need DIVINITY SCHOOLS OVER THERE to produce more and more scholars that are not cunts.
WE NEED OUR SCHOLARS THAT SPEAK ARABIC TO WANT TO GO THERE AND LEARN THIS REFORMED ISLAM IN A FUCKING ISLAMIC COUNTRY.
OR ELSE THERE'S NO REFORMATION, AND IT'S JUST LIBERAL ISLAM IN EUROPE
>>1365139
If not Christianity, then it must be Islam.
>Religion operating under the same material conditions today as in the past
Wanting religion is a new religion, you ever get what you want, you'll create a new one.
>>1366103
But religions are always reinterpreting, rediscovering and reinventing themselves.
They're historical processes like everything else.
Even Wahhabism with its restoration of 7th Century is a reinterpretation.
"atheism leads to death"
> Being so much of a fucking retard that you can't differentiate between atheism and communism
>>1366076
Agreed.
>Rumi's based
>Ferdowsi's based
>there will never be others if Badhadi, et. al, has his way
>>1366112
>But religions are always reinterpreting, rediscovering and reinventing themselves.
And they don't operate under the same theater and drama as they did in the past. Present will respond to present. Now things are confused to a point everything and anything is more about the argument itself than the subjects argued, and religion today, especially Islam, reflects this. The idea of last cry against modernism is the last modernistic within postmodernistic cry against postmodernism.
>>1366114
Perhaps he means demographic death, in which case he's correct: atheists, especially in Europe, don't have above replacement level births. That's mostly the religious conservatives.
There used to be an article in the telegraph but it has been removed so I'll just use the leddit link to prove that the article existed
https://www.reddit.com/r/religion/comments/1xtw2z/atheism_is_doomed_the_contraceptive_pill_is/
but there was an article that went as far as to call the contraceptive pill the "cyanide pill of secularism".
A civilization cannot persist if it does not pass on its values to the next generation. For that you need values and a next generation. Materialistic atheism has neither, as I believe with Camus that the logical conclusion of materialistic atheism is nihilism or existentialism.
>>1366124
And that's why we're not seeing this reformation taking place.
Also, Salafism actively persecutes the Sufis, Salafism is in Saudi Arabia where the holiest cities of Islam are, wherever the Saudis build a huge mosque with their huge funds, and in ISIS.
Christian Hermeticism!
Neoplatonic Christianity!
Reminder that the light of Neoplatonism and Hermeticism was the true inspiration of the first Renaissance.
Reminder that that fountain never runs dry.
Reminder that if you truly love the West you can't just leave all of those beautiful Christian cathedrals to rot and decay.
Therefore any new religion has to build on the foundation of our Christian heritage.
>>1366241
At that point just go Rosicrucian and be done with it.
There is already a new religion. Worship of argument.
>>1366251
But, are there valid Rosicrucian orders in existence? All I know is AMORC and it smells fishy...
>>1366251
Ape what's your opinion on ISKCON?
>>1366134
If atheism has neither how could it increase?
>>1366134
That may the case for many atheists, but there are certainly just as many who believe in the advancement of their family, race, morality, and knowledge.
Personally, I consider myself to be a semi-nihilistic atheist. I believe in the "Live and let live" motto. Do whatever you like as long as you aren't hurting anyone, but in the case in which you witness someone being hurt by another, you are not obligated to intervene. It's not worth getting involved in other people's affairs.
>>1365199
OP already discrediting Christianity with his cuckposting
Personally I nominate Kemetism
>>1365139
Abrahamic Deism is the only answer.
Jainism is the top religion. It's the most ethical, and it's not dogmatic.
The future of religion must not be unscientific, we are past blind faith.
Great religions like this might always be crushed by savage types, though.
>>1365139
>Christianity is cucked beyond repair
Lumping Orthodox Christianity with heresies
>>1365139
it'll be some mixture of hinduism and buddhism with emphasis on astrology, crystals, energy, vibrations, affirmations, positive thought, and string theory.
>>1366418
>implying the Orthodoxy aren't Dyophysite heretics.
>>1366437
>le spooky occultist tripfag calling people heretics
o i am laffin
>not being widely knowledgeable in several forms of religion, mysticism, and philosophy so you can create your own doctrine
Plebs, to be honest.
A 'new religion' would just add to the sickening plurality of insignificant cults.
Either communism or fascism would suffice. So long as the zealous are willing to physically dissolve other sects then it will work.
>>1366468
What's the point of having you own doctrine? We're talking social renewal here.
>>1366467
We can smell our own kind via pheromone signaling.
>>1366490
Yes, it's not like having your own doctrine created every ideology ever
>>1366134
Why does population need to perpetually grow as it has in the past?
The only reason we need higher birth rates in the west is because of immigration, and social security doesn't work. Elderly people aren't supposed to live in luxury for fucking 30+ years. They should live with their family.
>>1366520
I like how mongos make an arbitrary distinction between bad, spooky IDEOLOGY and good, warm and cuddly religion, philosophy, theory, etc.
>>1366076
>A successful reformation needs to become mainstream in at least one large Islamic country of North Africa or the Middle East.
Or rather Europe will turn Islamic and poison the Islamic tradition with its Faustian spirit, thus you get a reformation going from the Islamic West to the Islamic East.
>>1365139
>Dangerously Masonic
>Thelema
No.
>>1366657
underrated post
>>1366932
And then we'll get back to ground zero and ask ourselves why our religion has failed us when in fact it is ourselves that have failed it.
>>1366691
Well he's going to a bit far, but to think that Thelema and Freemasonry have no relation is a touch out there as well.
Original OTO was chartered M&M, AC was initiated into what I believe was a GO in Mexico City, but it wasn't valid in London.
Yarker was indeed the real deal and sent AC the rest of the M&M materials in redacted form. OTO ritual touches on Freemasonic concepts but it's heavily simplified for the internal current.
Any Freemason flipping through Liber 333 can plainly see the lines of influence.
>>1366039
>implying your love of tradition isn't simulated
This, this, this. Every single self-professed ""traditionalist"" I've seen online was exactly as vain and phony as those "I fucking love science" people.
>>1365224
How is the Pope a "tard"? He never claimed to be a prophet either. Nothing he has said or done is in confliction with Christ's teachings.
>>1366992
Most traditionalists(even the likes of Evola and Guenon) are just as much of a product of the modern world with its inherent materialism and nihilism. They just deify aesthetics and mask their materialism behind '''metaphysics''' while dissecting spiritual traditions and changing them like socks.
>>1366951
GAS THE WEST, BARBARISM NOW!
>>1367019
p. much
>>1366657
lmao europe isn't gonna do shit.
America is already sprouting the ideas for Islam's return to it's core ideas. Keep in mind, the modern events of ISIS and Saudi Arabia ARE a reformation to Islam. Islam was more like the West currently is (when compared to the rest of the world). People openly debated religious ideas, which included atheists and pagans. Many sects and religions inspired by Islam arose, like Druze, Sufis, and Sikhs. Stories and artwork depicted all sorts of lewd acts.
European Muslims will just follow American Muslims, who are very active in the medical and business fields, and have been modernizing Islam in the US since the 50s.
Europeans started getting Muslims in their country like, last week.
>>1366553
>They should live with their family.
Yeah, because everyone has a family! And families always have enough money! And Social Security makes old people filthy rich!
please, take your Republican (not conservative) propaganda and get out. Social Security is fine, and it's literally the only way to take care of old people.
>>1365139
I'm not even gonna read this thread. I'm just going suggest pure agnosticism, where we all admit that we don't know, we all decide that it's a personal matter and stays at home, and we don't let it interfere with the outside world.
>>1366553
What if they never married or had kids, and had no siblings with children either?
>>1367086
But agnosticism isn't an institution, and will never be because it does not offer the same benefits as organized religions. People look to religion for alleviation of current and future anxieties, and the answer to metaphysical questions science cannot yet answer. Its community aspects also offer an avenue for social interaction, and often serve as cultural milestones or methods of expression.
Agnosticism from my knowledge as an agnostic, is an individual view that, possibly because of its noncommittal belief and lack of doctrine, cannot stand as an institution.
>>1366952
True, but i wasn't sure which direction OP was going with it.
And yea, Ally wasn't anything resembling a real Freemason.
>>1367305
>Grand Orient Freemasonry's not real Freemasonry
I mean, you can not like it all day long, but the vast majority of continental Europe are GO and not GL.
>>1367321
You seem quite knowledgeable, so what's your opinion on O9A and Myatt?
>>1367328
Um, I'm not a hard right sort of person (nor left) so I can't really comment on the bastard's politics too much...I know this though:
Myatt's recent work on his Pathei Mathos material is really not bad nor disingenuous to the source materials he's working with.
O9A gets and F in historicity but an A in creative innovation. You'll hear a lot of people whinging about who is and isn't real O9A, but the point at the end of the day is simply that they appear to have no singular monolithic structure so anyone working the practices can make the claim, and while ahistorical, the Star Game appears to be a reasonable contemplation method.
I'll pick O9A over Koetting, Dragon Rouge, M.A.C., and Mike Ford every day of the week.
>>1367321
Grand Orient is leftist and anti religious.
>>1367448
K. So they have a different set of Landmarks. Also the P2 members were arrested for inciting a RIGHT WING conspiracy, but w/e.
My point is:
>they practice the rites
>they have institutional legitimacy inside their sphere of influence
>their charter's as (metaphorically) old as Egyptian mumified cat dicks, just like UGLE
Face it, they're Freemasons, except for [thing I don't like].
>>1365139
The sheer fact that you want to pick and choose a religion is the symbol of what has gone wrong in the West.
It is no longer just taken as a basic fact of the world that Christianity is true.
People who shop around for religions are lost, they won't find what they are looking for. Meaning comes from not even being able to see how you might be wrong.
I think this might be what happens to all intelligent life. They seek truth so passionately that they destroy all meaning and then don't care whether they exist or not.
>>1365354
So why reject Christianity? Why not reject nationalism?
>>1365470
Pretty much, I'm sure your too euphoric to get bogged down in it though
>>1365139
>Evolafag
opinion dismissed
>>1365139
Heathens, the lot of you. Don't you see, Christianity is the only thing keeping any sense left in the US. The majority of the people who are voting Trump are Christian, while the Left seeks to destroy Christianity wherever it finds it.
Just because you are seeing a Corrupted Christianity lead to cuckoldry doesn't mean that Christians and Christianity itself (whether Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, or other so long as it isn't too heretic) still aren't based as all hell.
Belief in Christ is the only way to salvation, He is the truth, the living word of God. Don't let the smooth words of Satan dipped and dripping with the taste of "intellectualism" and arrogant self-superiority lead you down the wrong path.
Pray for yourself to God, ask Him to help you. Hopefully someone reading this does, I'll say a quick prayer on all of your behalves
>>1368615
Implying most ''''''Christians'''''' aren't Christian in name only. Just being ''''''spiritual'''''' and identifying as Christian means jackshit if you do not actively seek to live by the teachings of Christ.
>>1367038
Except America is far away from the Middle East and has important significantly lower numbers of durka Muslims. Relatively high numbers of Muslim presence in Europe goes back to 60 years ago. And you can be sure that without actual integration and cutting off of Middle Eastern Islamist influence, those European Muslims aren't going to become active in medical and business fields. They're not that kind of people.
Meanwhile, Americans believe shit like hijab is freedom while comfortably bombing Muslims from literally the other side of the world.
>>1368632
Mind you, 5000 Muslims are working for the pentagon.
Consider that.
>>1366657
>Or rather Europe will turn Islamic and poison the Islamic tradition with its Faustian spirit, thus you get a reformation going from the Islamic West to the Islamic East.
The East and Africa will want none of that.
They'll reform in the opposite direction, just as Wahhabism and ISIS have done, to prevent "Western" Islam from "infiltrating" them.
An Islamic reformation either happens from within the lands of Islam, or it does not happen at all.
>>1368720
It'll just develop in another form of the white man's burden in which the West will justify its imperialism(whether as a cynical pretext or humanistic delusions of grandeur) as doing it for the betterment of the rest of the Ummah.
>>1368720
Wait a minute, so are you saying that this western form of Islam will allow gays to roam around and women not be opressed?
Aren't those some of the core tenants of Islam?
>>1368736
Not the anon you were replying to, but in my opinion it is solely a matter of how such a civilization would be established. If there will be a predominantly MENA leadership in both religious and political matters for long enough, Islam might maintain its purity through a total destruction of any sort of Western identity. Otherwise, if the MENA elite will be assimilated by the Westerners in time, even if the Islamic rhetoric is kept, it will only lead to the same degradation that has happened to Christianity.
>>1367815
>I think this might be what happens to all intelligent life. They seek truth so passionately that they destroy all meaning and then don't care whether they exist or not.
The search for truth is a truly bizarre practice. We can look at the world in front of us and ask ourselves if it truly is, or is truly. It has lead the greatest philosophers to suggest that it neither truly is nor is truly, and that what is true must be elsewhere in some immaterial realm. It was an absolute disaster of thought that we still haven't recovered from.
>>1367815
>It is no longer just taken as a basic fact of the world that Christianity is true.
Which is the classic mistake Christianity made, and Abrahamic religions make in general. It's not good enough that their religions reveal an inner truth, to them, their religion has to be an accurate description of reality. Unfortunately, science came along and proved almost everything in Christianity completely wrong, causing it to fail and collapse completely. Islam is now going through roughly the same process.
Now, the way I see it, Abrahamists now have two options. They can either stubbornly hold on to the notion that their holy books are flawless literal reports, which is what most fundamentalists, such as creationists or wahabists, do. They can also admit to the painful truth that the Bible/Quran only reveals inner truths of the human psyche, and has little to no validity outside of it.
>>1367136
>cannot yet answer.
Cannot answer full stop. Science is just a methodology. Metaphysics is born of philosophy and religion.
>>1368736
>Wait a minute, so are you saying that this western form of Islam will allow gays to roam around and women not be opressed?
>Aren't those some of the core tenants of Islam?
Politics determine the hermeneutics which determine the exoteric aspects of the practical religion.
So if adultery, fornication, homosexuality, immodest behavior, abortion, etc. are mandated by politics, the religion will undergo revisionism in order to fit the program.
"Scholars" can be given positions and economic compensation to do all sorts of wordplay, sophistry and outright vocabulary revisionism to suit this agenda.
For example, from the Cambridge Companion to the Qur'an, here's an imperialist telling Arabs they don't know their own sacred language:
>Hassan, on the other hand, argues that the word salihat, which is trans lated as “righteously obedient”, is related to the word salahiya, which means “capability” or “potentiality”, and not obedience’. She reads this as a reference to women’s child-bearing potential, also suggested by one of the meanings of qanitat, which is a water container (a metaphor for the womb). In her view, then, the verse is referring to ‘women’s role as child-bearers’ and only if all the women rebel against this role, can the community as a whole discipline them. But even this does not mean doing violence since, in a ‘legal context’ the word daraba means ‘holding in confinement’.
Because the sophistry is so weak, the imperialist appeals to the "rest of the teachings":
>Even if one does not agree with her exegesis, the point is that projecting wife-beating into the Qur'an is incongruent with the totality of its teachings, which emphasise love and mercy between spouses (Q 3:21; mawaddatan wa-rah. matan), and enjoin restraint and liberality even when a husband suspects his wife of disloyalty or hates her and wants to divorce her.
No one said 6th century morals cannot have a "tough" approach to "love", and endorse domestic discipline.
>>1368818
The bottom line is that organized religion exists to suit the State, modernists and their truth claims are not an exception.
Luther's Reformation was successful also because many German nobles didn't want to pay indulgences.
They couldn't give a shit about theology.
If you're looking for the One True God of the great religions, look at the State.
>>1368818
At this point I'm divided if I should even bother to read the Quran in anything other than Arabic. Revisionism can be introduced with such subtlety in a translation that you'd end up internalizing it before you know it.
>>1368826
And that's why Russia with all its flaws is still glorious. It stayed pure to the same political theology from the times of Ivan the Terrible up to today.
>>1368826
The State is the impersonal, unaccountable, invisible hand of Providence that does whatever the hell it wants and answers to nobody but its own counsel.
The State giveth and the State taketh away.
>>1368828
>At this point I'm divided if I should even bother to read the Quran in anything other than Arabic. Revisionism can be introduced with such subtlety in a translation that you'd end up internalizing it before you know it.
You could say that about any philosophical or religious text though, especially if you don't have a good grasp of the historical background/culture the writer was living in when the text was written.
How does /his/ feel about more informal 'religions' like the Transcendentalism of Walt Whitman and Thoreau (especially in regards to a uniquely American view of spirituality)?
>>1368828
>At this point I'm divided if I should even bother to read the Quran in anything other than Arabic.
If one knows Arabic it's a no-brainer, nobody would ever tell you to bother with a translation.
What makes sense to me is to read in the most popular, best-selling translation in your language, that one is going to have the greatest impact.
And yes, it's going to be a sectarian interpretation.
Might as well go Yusuf Alì Translation with the immense volume of commentary that is consistent with classical exegesis, tafsir and scholarship, using the occasional hadith to explain an extremely unclear verse referencing an event that simply isn't told in the text, instead of leaving it there or "making even newer shit up".
At least you will know how a non-modernist approaches the text.
>>1368836
By the time you're making your own religion and spiritual path, you're entering the world of the God of Philosophers.
The State has no time for that, it demands an organized religion to organize the people into worshipping it and obeying its commandments.
>>1365139
I like how you don't even pretend religion is a search for the truth.
You throw religions around just like that, as if they are a plan on how to do chores this week.
An actually religious person would hate you, and thats amusing to me.
>>1368836
Absolutely, that's why I'm iffy of most books that act as an accompaniment for the source material. If it isn't unapologetic in its support, then its worthless. Understanding the pure beliefs should come before any sort of critical analysis.
>How does /his/ feel about more informal 'religions' like the Transcendentalism of Walt Whitman and Thoreau (especially in regards to a uniquely American view of spirituality)?
I think the likes of Ben Klassen(Creativity movement) and WL Pierce(Cosmotheism) are much more interesting as someone coming from the ''''right''''.
>>1368846
I have the sole translation in my language along with an 'encyclopedic dictionary of the Quran'. Haven't had the time to read it yet, but once I do I'd probably seek out a Sunni Imam for a better understanding of the text. Behind closed doors, every preacher can be a radical based on the company.
